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Twelve Leaders of Quraysh

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Haqq786

Twelve Leaders of Quraysh
« on: July 26, 2018, 12:01:38 AM »
Asalaam Alaikum.

It is well known that the Prophet (pbuh&hf) prophecied about 12 Leaders after him.

The twelve Leaders of the Shias are supported by the Ahadith of the Prophet of Allah. This is proven by the Shia Hadith collections. Kifayat al-Athar is a famous collection which has gathered many reports, in that regard, from different routes.

Do the Sunnis have anything to support their 12 Leaders, or are they content with guess work only?

I believe that the shias have an upper hand in this matter.

Rude boys, you can stay out of the discussion. Sunni intellectuals, do contribute to the topic with valid responses.


Abu Muhammad

Re: Twelve Leaders of Quraysh
« Reply #1 on: July 27, 2018, 07:21:44 PM »
Asalaam Alaikum.

It is well known that the Prophet (pbuh&hf) prophecied about 12 Leaders after him.

The twelve Leaders of the Shias are supported by the Ahadith of the Prophet of Allah. This is proven by the Shia Hadith collections. Kifayat al-Athar is a famous collection which has gathered many reports, in that regard, from different routes.

Do the Sunnis have anything to support their 12 Leaders, or are they content with guess work only?

I believe that the shias have an upper hand in this matter.

Rude boys, you can stay out of the discussion. Sunni intellectuals, do contribute to the topic with valid responses.

Wa'alaikumussalam...

Disagree that Twelvers have the upper hand. Why is that? Simple answer is: Who cares whom these twelve caliphs are!

The hadith just tells us that there will be twelve caliph. That's all.

Nowhere Rasulullah (saw) asked us to find out who these twelve caliphs are (let alone knowing them) nor did he (saw) tell us us that our iman will be incomplete if we don't know them.

Nothing whatsoever.

Noor-us-Sunnah

Re: Twelve Leaders of Quraysh
« Reply #2 on: July 27, 2018, 08:38:12 PM »
Asalaam Alaikum.

It is well known that the Prophet (pbuh&hf) prophecied about 12 Leaders after him.

The twelve Leaders of the Shias are supported by the Ahadith of the Prophet of Allah. This is proven by the Shia Hadith collections. Kifayat al-Athar is a famous collection which has gathered many reports, in that regard, from different routes.

Do the Sunnis have anything to support their 12 Leaders, or are they content with guess work only?

I believe that the shias have an upper hand in this matter.

Rude boys, you can stay out of the discussion. Sunni intellectuals, do contribute to the topic with valid responses.

Regarding the Shi’a belief, then it’s enough to see what an esteemed Shia scholar had to say which exposes the confusion early Shias had.

Shia scholar of Hadith Muhammad Baqir al-Behbudi writes in "Ma`rifat al-Hadith" pg.172:

على انك عرفت في بحث الشذوذ عن نظام الامامة ان الأحاديث المروية في النصوص على الأئمة جملة من خبر اللوح وغيره كلها مصنوعة في عهد الغيبة والحيرة وقبلها بقليل فلو كانت هذه النصوص المتوافرة موجوده عند الشيعة اللإمامية لما اختلفوا في معرفة الأئمة هذا الاختلاف الفاضح ولما وقعت الحيرة لأساطين المذهب واركان الحديث سنوات عديدة وكانوا في غنى ان يتسرعوا في تأليف الكتب في اثبات الغيبة وكشف الحيرة عن قلوب الامة بهذه الكثرة

[And you (reader) now know after the research on "al-Shudhudh `an Nizam al-Imamah" that the narrations about the general identity of the Imams such as the narration of the Tablet and others, are all fabricated during the time of al-Ghaybah and al-Hayrah and some short time before it. For if these narrations were available with the Imami Shia, they would not have disagreed so openly and greatly about the identity of the Imams, nor would the biggest personalities and narrators of Hadith have faced much confusion for long years, nor would they have needed to quickly write books proving the Ghaybah to unveil the confusion from the hearts of the nation in such great numbers.]


As for the Sunni view then, as per Sunnis the other authentic traditions of Prophet(saws) and the understanding of Sahaba refutes the Shi’a belief. For example, the hadeeth of Caliphate on Manhaj Nabuwwah being for 30 years. And how Safeenah(ra) understood it, which is actually a pro Ali(ra) narration. Or the hadeeth of Ibn Umar(ra) wherein he described who the Twelve Caliphs included Abubakr(ra) and Umar(ra).

This certain info and it refutes the Shi’a belief, now when Shias realize then they want to divert the focus from the real refutation to their not much related questions. Like who are the rest Caliphs. But they fail to realize that even if Sunnis disagree over the identity of later Caliphs and are uncertain, yet what is certain and established among Sunnis destroys the Shi’a belief. That is, the initial ones are those who aren’t considered as Shi’a Imams, and this is sufficient to reject the Shi’a belief.

Rationalist

Re: Twelve Leaders of Quraysh
« Reply #3 on: July 28, 2018, 01:39:54 AM »
Asalaam Alaikum.

It is well known that the Prophet (pbuh&hf) prophecied about 12 Leaders after him.

The twelve Leaders of the Shias are supported by the Ahadith of the Prophet of Allah. This is proven by the Shia Hadith collections. Kifayat al-Athar is a famous collection which has gathered many reports, in that regard, from different routes.



The issue is who did the Imams inform that they are numbered 1-12? It was supposedly a secret. Imam Baqer and Imam Jafar never came out  in public and declared themselves the 5th and 6th imams. Also, neither in the Quran or the Najh al Balagha there isn't a single page about the imamate of 12.

Farid

Re: Twelve Leaders of Quraysh
« Reply #4 on: July 28, 2018, 12:02:05 PM »
Asalaam Alaikum.

It is well known that the Prophet (pbuh&hf) prophecied about 12 Leaders after him.


Wa alaykum alsalam,

Then it is a failed prophecy, since Shias don't believe that they became caliphs nor that their times were times of glory. ;)

zaid_ibn_ali

Re: Twelve Leaders of Quraysh
« Reply #5 on: July 28, 2018, 01:40:49 PM »






Rude boys,

There seems to be only one other person who uses this phrase & has used it few times.
That is ICEMAN.

So desperate to fool the people on here😂😂😂

Ijtaba

Re: Twelve Leaders of Quraysh
« Reply #6 on: July 28, 2018, 02:21:57 PM »
Salaam.

According to Ahlul Sunnah there were many Caliphs who ruled over Muslims so they get confounded by the hadith of Twelve Caliphs. Its over thousand years the identity of those twelve caliphs remain unknown. Those who did try to investigate about identities of those 12 individuals ended up disagreeing with one another about their identities. Because of their ignorance & disagreement on 12 Caliphs Ahlul Sunnah are unable to provide the names of those 12 individuals with evidence.

On the other hand, al-Hamdulillah brother Haqq rightly stated that we Twelver Shias are at upper hand because we all Twelver Shias agree on who those 12 Caliphs are. There is no ignorance nor disagreement between Twelver Shias regarding their identities.

We Twelver Shias believes 12 Aimmah (a.s) ruled this Ummah in the same way Prophets (a.s) ruled in their Ummah. Aimmah (a.s) rule was like that of Prophets (a.s) and not like the rule of Nimrod or Pharaoh. Banu Ummaya & Banu Abbas ruled like Pharaohs & Nimrod so definitely they are excluded from 12 Caliph hadith.

zaid_ibn_ali

Re: Twelve Leaders of Quraysh
« Reply #7 on: July 28, 2018, 02:32:54 PM »
Salaam.

According to Ahlul Sunnah there were many Caliphs who ruled over Muslims so they get confounded by the hadith of Twelve Caliphs. Its over thousand years the identity of those twelve caliphs remain unknown. Those who did try to investigate about identities of those 12 individuals ended up disagreeing with one another about their identities. Because of their ignorance & disagreement on 12 Caliphs Ahlul Sunnah are unable to provide the names of those 12 individuals with evidence.

On the other hand, al-Hamdulillah brother Haqq rightly stated that we Twelver Shias are at upper hand because we all Twelver Shias agree on who those 12 Caliphs are. There is no ignorance nor disagreement between Twelver Shias regarding their identities.

We Twelver Shias believes 12 Aimmah (a.s) ruled this Ummah in the same way Prophets (a.s) ruled in their Ummah. Aimmah (a.s) rule was like that of Prophets (a.s) and not like the rule of Nimrod or Pharaoh. Banu Ummaya & Banu Abbas ruled like Pharaohs & Nimrod so definitely they are excluded from 12 Caliph hadith.

You are mocking the Quran too then.
As over 1400 years later we still can’t find the names of these 12 in the Quran!
If Allah SWT didn’t deem it important to mention them, then why should we need to bother?


« Last Edit: July 28, 2018, 02:34:24 PM by zaid_ibn_ali »

Abu Muhammad

Re: Twelve Leaders of Quraysh
« Reply #8 on: July 28, 2018, 02:34:14 PM »
We Twelver Shias believes 12 Aimmah (a.s) ruled this Ummah in the same way Prophets (a.s) ruled in their Ummah. Aimmah (a.s) rule was like that of Prophets (a.s) and not like the rule of Nimrod or Pharaoh. Banu Ummaya & Banu Abbas ruled like Pharaohs & Nimrod so definitely they are excluded from 12 Caliph hadith.

That statement really made my day...

For more than a thousand years, the 12th  imam who is the hujjah and imam of this age rules the ummah like prophets (as)...

There goes your brain cells.

Ijtaba

Re: Twelve Leaders of Quraysh
« Reply #9 on: July 28, 2018, 02:38:41 PM »
That statement really made my day...

For more than a thousand years, the 12th  imam who is the hujjah and imam of this age rules the ummah like prophets (as)...

There goes your brain cells.

If your brain cells are active then kindly enlighten me how was the rule of Nabi Isa (a.s) for 600 years after ascending to Heaven and before coming of Prophet Mohammed (s.a.w.w)?

Abu Muhammad

Re: Twelve Leaders of Quraysh
« Reply #10 on: July 28, 2018, 02:44:01 PM »
If your brain cells are active then kindly enlighten me how was the rule of Nabi Isa (a.s) for 600 years after ascending to Heaven and before coming of Prophet Mohammed (s.a.w.w)?

Did Isa (as) rule the ummah during that 600 years?

#ThereGoesYourBrainCells
« Last Edit: July 28, 2018, 02:46:55 PM by Abu Muhammad »

Ijtaba

Re: Twelve Leaders of Quraysh
« Reply #11 on: July 28, 2018, 03:21:40 PM »
Did Isa (as) rule the ummah during that 600 years?

#ThereGoesYourBrainCells

It has been narrated by Abu Huraira that the Prophet (may pceace be upon him) said:

Banu Isra'il were ruled over by the Prophets. When one Prophet died, another succeeded him; but after me there is no prophet and there will be caliphs and they will be quite large in number. His Companions said: What do you order us to do (in case we come to have more than one Caliph)? He said: The one to whom allegiance is sworn first has a supremacy over the others. Concede to them their due rights (i. e. obey them). God (Himself) will question them about the subjects whom He had entrusted to them.


Reference: Sahih Muslim 1842 a
In-book reference: Book 33, Hadith 71
USC-MSA web (English) reference: Book 20, Hadith 4543


During those 600 years there was no apparent Prophet like at present there is no apparent Imam.

Nabi Isa (a.s) did not die and was taken up alive to Heavens like Imam Mehdi (a.s) did not die and went alive into Ghaybah.

Nabi Isa (a.s) will come (descend from Heavens) in the End of times like Imam Mehdi (a.s) will come (out of Ghaybah) in the End of times.

Abu Muhammad

Re: Twelve Leaders of Quraysh
« Reply #12 on: July 28, 2018, 03:34:03 PM »
It has been narrated by Abu Huraira that the Prophet (may pceace be upon him) said:

Banu Isra'il were ruled over by the Prophets. When one Prophet died, another succeeded him; but after me there is no prophet and there will be caliphs and they will be quite large in number. His Companions said: What do you order us to do (in case we come to have more than one Caliph)? He said: The one to whom allegiance is sworn first has a supremacy over the others. Concede to them their due rights (i. e. obey them). God (Himself) will question them about the subjects whom He had entrusted to them.


Reference: Sahih Muslim 1842 a
In-book reference: Book 33, Hadith 71
USC-MSA web (English) reference: Book 20, Hadith 4543


During those 600 years there was no apparent Prophet like at present there is no apparent Imam.

Nabi Isa (a.s) did not die and was taken up alive to Heavens like Imam Mehdi (a.s) did not die and went alive into Ghaybah.

Nabi Isa (a.s) will come (descend from Heavens) in the End of times like Imam Mehdi (a.s) will come (out of Ghaybah) in the End of times.

Still didn't answer the the question. Did Isa (as) rule the ummah during that 600 years? Or is it someone else had taken over the "rulership"?
« Last Edit: July 28, 2018, 03:35:26 PM by Abu Muhammad »

Ijtaba

Re: Twelve Leaders of Quraysh
« Reply #13 on: July 28, 2018, 04:03:03 PM »
Still didn't answering. Did Isa (as) rule the ummah during that 600 years? Or is it someone else had taken over the "rulership"?

When Nabi Isa (a.s) lived among Bani Israel he ruled them. However in those 600 years Nabi Isa (a.s) was not living amongst Bani Israel so it can be understood he did not rule but Banu Israel in those 600 years were to believe in the Prophethood of Nabi Isa (a.s) and follow his teachings & commandments.

Similarly Imam Mehdi (a.s) during his Ghaybat e Suhgra ruled thus confirming 12 Caliphs hadith. However when he (a.s) went in Ghaybat e Kubra he (a.s) is not ruling like Nabi Isa (a.s) after his ascension but we are to believe in his (a.s) Imamat and follow his teachings & commandments.

Ijtaba

Re: Twelve Leaders of Quraysh
« Reply #14 on: July 28, 2018, 04:28:33 PM »
You are mocking the Quran too then.
As over 1400 years later we still can’t find the names of these 12 in the Quran!
If Allah SWT didn’t deem it important to mention them, then why should we need to bother?

So what is then the significance of 12 Caliph hadith?

Prophet Mohammed (s.a.w.w) says that Islam will be in the state of glory until it is ruled by 12 Caliphs. According to you instead of finding out who these 12 Caliphs are our response is to be why should we need to bother?

ALLAH (SWT) did not seem it important to mention them in Quran but deemed it important for HIS Prophet (s.a.w.w) to mention about them to Muslim Ummah.

ALLAH (SWT) deemed it important to mention 12 Chiefs (without naming them) of previous Ummah (Ummah of Nabi Musa a.s). One may ask why did ALLAH (SWT) mention 12 Chiefs of previous Ummah whose actions does not affect us as this Ummah won't be questioned about actions of previous Ummah?  :o

iceman

Re: Twelve Leaders of Quraysh
« Reply #15 on: July 28, 2018, 04:35:48 PM »
You are mocking the Quran too then.
As over 1400 years later we still can’t find the names of these 12 in the Quran!
If Allah SWT didn’t deem it important to mention them, then why should we need to bother?

You do believe in Messengers and Prophets, don't you. And they most certainly have been mentioned in the Qur'an. How many Messengers and Prophets do you believe in altogether? Lets say 124,000. Can you provide me with clear evidence from the Qur'an that there has been a total of 124,000 Messengers and Prophets. Just the figure, forget about 124,,000 names.

zaid_ibn_ali

Re: Twelve Leaders of Quraysh
« Reply #16 on: July 28, 2018, 05:03:50 PM »
You do believe in Messengers and Prophets, don't you. And they most certainly have been mentioned in the Qur'an. How many Messengers and Prophets do you believe in altogether? Lets say 124,000. Can you provide me with clear evidence from the Qur'an that there has been a total of 124,000 Messengers and Prophets. Just the figure, forget about 124,,000 names.

Many of them have been mentioned. Most importantly the final messenger has been mentioned, who’s sharia we follow.
Not one of your 12 have been mentioned at all.
So why should I need to know about so called 12 names?
Its not important.

zaid_ibn_ali

Re: Twelve Leaders of Quraysh
« Reply #17 on: July 28, 2018, 05:07:31 PM »
So what is then the significance of 12 Caliph hadith?

Prophet Mohammed (s.a.w.w) says that Islam will be in the state of glory until it is ruled by 12 Caliphs. According to you instead of finding out who these 12 Caliphs are our response is to be why should we need to bother?

ALLAH (SWT) did not seem it important to mention them in Quran but deemed it important for HIS Prophet (s.a.w.w) to mention about them to Muslim Ummah.

ALLAH (SWT) deemed it important to mention 12 Chiefs (without naming them) of previous Ummah (Ummah of Nabi Musa a.s). One may ask why did ALLAH (SWT) mention 12 Chiefs of previous Ummah whose actions does not affect us as this Ummah won't be questioned about actions of previous Ummah?  :o

Its not a foundation we need to know. Your 12 aren’t mentioned in the Quran.
Get over it.

zaid_ibn_ali

Re: Twelve Leaders of Quraysh
« Reply #18 on: July 28, 2018, 05:09:16 PM »
Btw Iceman didn’t reply when I busted him for being the user haqq786 who started this thread.
Wouldn’t surprise me if Ijtaba is his third username haha.

Abu Muhammad

Re: Twelve Leaders of Quraysh
« Reply #19 on: July 28, 2018, 05:13:25 PM »
When Nabi Isa (a.s) lived among Bani Israel he ruled them. However in those 600 years Nabi Isa (a.s) was not living amongst Bani Israel so it can be understood he did not rule but Banu Israel in those 600 years were to believe in the Prophethood of Nabi Isa (a.s) and follow his teachings & commandments.

Similarly Imam Mehdi (a.s) during his Ghaybat e Suhgra ruled thus confirming 12 Caliphs hadith. However when he (a.s) went in Ghaybat e Kubra he (a.s) is not ruling like Nabi Isa (a.s) after his ascension but we are to believe in his (a.s) Imamat and follow his teachings & commandments.

Errr... I thought there was an imam succeeding Isa (as) after he (as) was taken up to heaven. Therefore, the ummah at that time were supposed to be under the imamat of Isa (as)'s successor and not Isa (as) himself, right? ...  ;)

 

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