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Sunni Shia Discussion Forum => Imamah-Ghaybah => Topic started by: Haqq786 on July 25, 2018, 10:01:38 PM

Title: Twelve Leaders of Quraysh
Post by: Haqq786 on July 25, 2018, 10:01:38 PM
Asalaam Alaikum.

It is well known that the Prophet (pbuh&hf) prophecied about 12 Leaders after him.

The twelve Leaders of the Shias are supported by the Ahadith of the Prophet of Allah. This is proven by the Shia Hadith collections. Kifayat al-Athar is a famous collection which has gathered many reports, in that regard, from different routes.

Do the Sunnis have anything to support their 12 Leaders, or are they content with guess work only?

I believe that the shias have an upper hand in this matter.

Rude boys, you can stay out of the discussion. Sunni intellectuals, do contribute to the topic with valid responses.

Title: Re: Twelve Leaders of Quraysh
Post by: Abu Muhammad on July 27, 2018, 05:21:44 PM
Asalaam Alaikum.

It is well known that the Prophet (pbuh&hf) prophecied about 12 Leaders after him.

The twelve Leaders of the Shias are supported by the Ahadith of the Prophet of Allah. This is proven by the Shia Hadith collections. Kifayat al-Athar is a famous collection which has gathered many reports, in that regard, from different routes.

Do the Sunnis have anything to support their 12 Leaders, or are they content with guess work only?

I believe that the shias have an upper hand in this matter.

Rude boys, you can stay out of the discussion. Sunni intellectuals, do contribute to the topic with valid responses.

Wa'alaikumussalam...

Disagree that Twelvers have the upper hand. Why is that? Simple answer is: Who cares whom these twelve caliphs are!

The hadith just tells us that there will be twelve caliph. That's all.

Nowhere Rasulullah (saw) asked us to find out who these twelve caliphs are (let alone knowing them) nor did he (saw) tell us us that our iman will be incomplete if we don't know them.

Nothing whatsoever.
Title: Re: Twelve Leaders of Quraysh
Post by: Noor-us-Sunnah on July 27, 2018, 06:38:12 PM
Asalaam Alaikum.

It is well known that the Prophet (pbuh&hf) prophecied about 12 Leaders after him.

The twelve Leaders of the Shias are supported by the Ahadith of the Prophet of Allah. This is proven by the Shia Hadith collections. Kifayat al-Athar is a famous collection which has gathered many reports, in that regard, from different routes.

Do the Sunnis have anything to support their 12 Leaders, or are they content with guess work only?

I believe that the shias have an upper hand in this matter.

Rude boys, you can stay out of the discussion. Sunni intellectuals, do contribute to the topic with valid responses.

Regarding the Shi’a belief, then it’s enough to see what an esteemed Shia scholar had to say which exposes the confusion early Shias had.

Shia scholar of Hadith Muhammad Baqir al-Behbudi writes in "Ma`rifat al-Hadith" pg.172:

على انك عرفت في بحث الشذوذ عن نظام الامامة ان الأحاديث المروية في النصوص على الأئمة جملة من خبر اللوح وغيره كلها مصنوعة في عهد الغيبة والحيرة وقبلها بقليل فلو كانت هذه النصوص المتوافرة موجوده عند الشيعة اللإمامية لما اختلفوا في معرفة الأئمة هذا الاختلاف الفاضح ولما وقعت الحيرة لأساطين المذهب واركان الحديث سنوات عديدة وكانوا في غنى ان يتسرعوا في تأليف الكتب في اثبات الغيبة وكشف الحيرة عن قلوب الامة بهذه الكثرة

[And you (reader) now know after the research on "al-Shudhudh `an Nizam al-Imamah" that the narrations about the general identity of the Imams such as the narration of the Tablet and others, are all fabricated during the time of al-Ghaybah and al-Hayrah and some short time before it. For if these narrations were available with the Imami Shia, they would not have disagreed so openly and greatly about the identity of the Imams, nor would the biggest personalities and narrators of Hadith have faced much confusion for long years, nor would they have needed to quickly write books proving the Ghaybah to unveil the confusion from the hearts of the nation in such great numbers.]


As for the Sunni view then, as per Sunnis the other authentic traditions of Prophet(saws) and the understanding of Sahaba refutes the Shi’a belief. For example, the hadeeth of Caliphate on Manhaj Nabuwwah being for 30 years. And how Safeenah(ra) understood it, which is actually a pro Ali(ra) narration. Or the hadeeth of Ibn Umar(ra) wherein he described who the Twelve Caliphs included Abubakr(ra) and Umar(ra).

This certain info and it refutes the Shi’a belief, now when Shias realize then they want to divert the focus from the real refutation to their not much related questions. Like who are the rest Caliphs. But they fail to realize that even if Sunnis disagree over the identity of later Caliphs and are uncertain, yet what is certain and established among Sunnis destroys the Shi’a belief. That is, the initial ones are those who aren’t considered as Shi’a Imams, and this is sufficient to reject the Shi’a belief.
Title: Re: Twelve Leaders of Quraysh
Post by: Rationalist on July 27, 2018, 11:39:54 PM
Asalaam Alaikum.

It is well known that the Prophet (pbuh&hf) prophecied about 12 Leaders after him.

The twelve Leaders of the Shias are supported by the Ahadith of the Prophet of Allah. This is proven by the Shia Hadith collections. Kifayat al-Athar is a famous collection which has gathered many reports, in that regard, from different routes.



The issue is who did the Imams inform that they are numbered 1-12? It was supposedly a secret. Imam Baqer and Imam Jafar never came out  in public and declared themselves the 5th and 6th imams. Also, neither in the Quran or the Najh al Balagha there isn't a single page about the imamate of 12.
Title: Re: Twelve Leaders of Quraysh
Post by: Farid on July 28, 2018, 10:02:05 AM
Asalaam Alaikum.

It is well known that the Prophet (pbuh&hf) prophecied about 12 Leaders after him.


Wa alaykum alsalam,

Then it is a failed prophecy, since Shias don't believe that they became caliphs nor that their times were times of glory. ;)
Title: Re: Twelve Leaders of Quraysh
Post by: zaid_ibn_ali on July 28, 2018, 11:40:49 AM






Rude boys,

There seems to be only one other person who uses this phrase & has used it few times.
That is ICEMAN.

So desperate to fool the people on here😂😂😂
Title: Re: Twelve Leaders of Quraysh
Post by: Ijtaba on July 28, 2018, 12:21:57 PM
Salaam.

According to Ahlul Sunnah there were many Caliphs who ruled over Muslims so they get confounded by the hadith of Twelve Caliphs. Its over thousand years the identity of those twelve caliphs remain unknown. Those who did try to investigate about identities of those 12 individuals ended up disagreeing with one another about their identities. Because of their ignorance & disagreement on 12 Caliphs Ahlul Sunnah are unable to provide the names of those 12 individuals with evidence.

On the other hand, al-Hamdulillah brother Haqq rightly stated that we Twelver Shias are at upper hand because we all Twelver Shias agree on who those 12 Caliphs are. There is no ignorance nor disagreement between Twelver Shias regarding their identities.

We Twelver Shias believes 12 Aimmah (a.s) ruled this Ummah in the same way Prophets (a.s) ruled in their Ummah. Aimmah (a.s) rule was like that of Prophets (a.s) and not like the rule of Nimrod or Pharaoh. Banu Ummaya & Banu Abbas ruled like Pharaohs & Nimrod so definitely they are excluded from 12 Caliph hadith.
Title: Re: Twelve Leaders of Quraysh
Post by: zaid_ibn_ali on July 28, 2018, 12:32:54 PM
Salaam.

According to Ahlul Sunnah there were many Caliphs who ruled over Muslims so they get confounded by the hadith of Twelve Caliphs. Its over thousand years the identity of those twelve caliphs remain unknown. Those who did try to investigate about identities of those 12 individuals ended up disagreeing with one another about their identities. Because of their ignorance & disagreement on 12 Caliphs Ahlul Sunnah are unable to provide the names of those 12 individuals with evidence.

On the other hand, al-Hamdulillah brother Haqq rightly stated that we Twelver Shias are at upper hand because we all Twelver Shias agree on who those 12 Caliphs are. There is no ignorance nor disagreement between Twelver Shias regarding their identities.

We Twelver Shias believes 12 Aimmah (a.s) ruled this Ummah in the same way Prophets (a.s) ruled in their Ummah. Aimmah (a.s) rule was like that of Prophets (a.s) and not like the rule of Nimrod or Pharaoh. Banu Ummaya & Banu Abbas ruled like Pharaohs & Nimrod so definitely they are excluded from 12 Caliph hadith.

You are mocking the Quran too then.
As over 1400 years later we still can’t find the names of these 12 in the Quran!
If Allah SWT didn’t deem it important to mention them, then why should we need to bother?


Title: Re: Twelve Leaders of Quraysh
Post by: Abu Muhammad on July 28, 2018, 12:34:14 PM
We Twelver Shias believes 12 Aimmah (a.s) ruled this Ummah in the same way Prophets (a.s) ruled in their Ummah. Aimmah (a.s) rule was like that of Prophets (a.s) and not like the rule of Nimrod or Pharaoh. Banu Ummaya & Banu Abbas ruled like Pharaohs & Nimrod so definitely they are excluded from 12 Caliph hadith.

That statement really made my day...

For more than a thousand years, the 12th  imam who is the hujjah and imam of this age rules the ummah like prophets (as)...

There goes your brain cells.
Title: Re: Twelve Leaders of Quraysh
Post by: Ijtaba on July 28, 2018, 12:38:41 PM
That statement really made my day...

For more than a thousand years, the 12th  imam who is the hujjah and imam of this age rules the ummah like prophets (as)...

There goes your brain cells.

If your brain cells are active then kindly enlighten me how was the rule of Nabi Isa (a.s) for 600 years after ascending to Heaven and before coming of Prophet Mohammed (s.a.w.w)?
Title: Re: Twelve Leaders of Quraysh
Post by: Abu Muhammad on July 28, 2018, 12:44:01 PM
If your brain cells are active then kindly enlighten me how was the rule of Nabi Isa (a.s) for 600 years after ascending to Heaven and before coming of Prophet Mohammed (s.a.w.w)?

Did Isa (as) rule the ummah during that 600 years?

#ThereGoesYourBrainCells
Title: Re: Twelve Leaders of Quraysh
Post by: Ijtaba on July 28, 2018, 01:21:40 PM
Did Isa (as) rule the ummah during that 600 years?

#ThereGoesYourBrainCells

It has been narrated by Abu Huraira that the Prophet (may pceace be upon him) said:

Banu Isra'il were ruled over by the Prophets. When one Prophet died, another succeeded him; but after me there is no prophet and there will be caliphs and they will be quite large in number. His Companions said: What do you order us to do (in case we come to have more than one Caliph)? He said: The one to whom allegiance is sworn first has a supremacy over the others. Concede to them their due rights (i. e. obey them). God (Himself) will question them about the subjects whom He had entrusted to them.


Reference: Sahih Muslim 1842 a
In-book reference: Book 33, Hadith 71
USC-MSA web (English) reference: Book 20, Hadith 4543


During those 600 years there was no apparent Prophet like at present there is no apparent Imam.

Nabi Isa (a.s) did not die and was taken up alive to Heavens like Imam Mehdi (a.s) did not die and went alive into Ghaybah.

Nabi Isa (a.s) will come (descend from Heavens) in the End of times like Imam Mehdi (a.s) will come (out of Ghaybah) in the End of times.
Title: Re: Twelve Leaders of Quraysh
Post by: Abu Muhammad on July 28, 2018, 01:34:03 PM
It has been narrated by Abu Huraira that the Prophet (may pceace be upon him) said:

Banu Isra'il were ruled over by the Prophets. When one Prophet died, another succeeded him; but after me there is no prophet and there will be caliphs and they will be quite large in number. His Companions said: What do you order us to do (in case we come to have more than one Caliph)? He said: The one to whom allegiance is sworn first has a supremacy over the others. Concede to them their due rights (i. e. obey them). God (Himself) will question them about the subjects whom He had entrusted to them.


Reference: Sahih Muslim 1842 a
In-book reference: Book 33, Hadith 71
USC-MSA web (English) reference: Book 20, Hadith 4543


During those 600 years there was no apparent Prophet like at present there is no apparent Imam.

Nabi Isa (a.s) did not die and was taken up alive to Heavens like Imam Mehdi (a.s) did not die and went alive into Ghaybah.

Nabi Isa (a.s) will come (descend from Heavens) in the End of times like Imam Mehdi (a.s) will come (out of Ghaybah) in the End of times.

Still didn't answer the the question. Did Isa (as) rule the ummah during that 600 years? Or is it someone else had taken over the "rulership"?
Title: Re: Twelve Leaders of Quraysh
Post by: Ijtaba on July 28, 2018, 02:03:03 PM
Still didn't answering. Did Isa (as) rule the ummah during that 600 years? Or is it someone else had taken over the "rulership"?

When Nabi Isa (a.s) lived among Bani Israel he ruled them. However in those 600 years Nabi Isa (a.s) was not living amongst Bani Israel so it can be understood he did not rule but Banu Israel in those 600 years were to believe in the Prophethood of Nabi Isa (a.s) and follow his teachings & commandments.

Similarly Imam Mehdi (a.s) during his Ghaybat e Suhgra ruled thus confirming 12 Caliphs hadith. However when he (a.s) went in Ghaybat e Kubra he (a.s) is not ruling like Nabi Isa (a.s) after his ascension but we are to believe in his (a.s) Imamat and follow his teachings & commandments.
Title: Re: Twelve Leaders of Quraysh
Post by: Ijtaba on July 28, 2018, 02:28:33 PM
You are mocking the Quran too then.
As over 1400 years later we still can’t find the names of these 12 in the Quran!
If Allah SWT didn’t deem it important to mention them, then why should we need to bother?

So what is then the significance of 12 Caliph hadith?

Prophet Mohammed (s.a.w.w) says that Islam will be in the state of glory until it is ruled by 12 Caliphs. According to you instead of finding out who these 12 Caliphs are our response is to be why should we need to bother?

ALLAH (SWT) did not seem it important to mention them in Quran but deemed it important for HIS Prophet (s.a.w.w) to mention about them to Muslim Ummah.

ALLAH (SWT) deemed it important to mention 12 Chiefs (without naming them) of previous Ummah (Ummah of Nabi Musa a.s). One may ask why did ALLAH (SWT) mention 12 Chiefs of previous Ummah whose actions does not affect us as this Ummah won't be questioned about actions of previous Ummah?  :o
Title: Re: Twelve Leaders of Quraysh
Post by: iceman on July 28, 2018, 02:35:48 PM
You are mocking the Quran too then.
As over 1400 years later we still can’t find the names of these 12 in the Quran!
If Allah SWT didn’t deem it important to mention them, then why should we need to bother?

You do believe in Messengers and Prophets, don't you. And they most certainly have been mentioned in the Qur'an. How many Messengers and Prophets do you believe in altogether? Lets say 124,000. Can you provide me with clear evidence from the Qur'an that there has been a total of 124,000 Messengers and Prophets. Just the figure, forget about 124,,000 names.
Title: Re: Twelve Leaders of Quraysh
Post by: zaid_ibn_ali on July 28, 2018, 03:03:50 PM
You do believe in Messengers and Prophets, don't you. And they most certainly have been mentioned in the Qur'an. How many Messengers and Prophets do you believe in altogether? Lets say 124,000. Can you provide me with clear evidence from the Qur'an that there has been a total of 124,000 Messengers and Prophets. Just the figure, forget about 124,,000 names.

Many of them have been mentioned. Most importantly the final messenger has been mentioned, who’s sharia we follow.
Not one of your 12 have been mentioned at all.
So why should I need to know about so called 12 names?
Its not important.
Title: Re: Twelve Leaders of Quraysh
Post by: zaid_ibn_ali on July 28, 2018, 03:07:31 PM
So what is then the significance of 12 Caliph hadith?

Prophet Mohammed (s.a.w.w) says that Islam will be in the state of glory until it is ruled by 12 Caliphs. According to you instead of finding out who these 12 Caliphs are our response is to be why should we need to bother?

ALLAH (SWT) did not seem it important to mention them in Quran but deemed it important for HIS Prophet (s.a.w.w) to mention about them to Muslim Ummah.

ALLAH (SWT) deemed it important to mention 12 Chiefs (without naming them) of previous Ummah (Ummah of Nabi Musa a.s). One may ask why did ALLAH (SWT) mention 12 Chiefs of previous Ummah whose actions does not affect us as this Ummah won't be questioned about actions of previous Ummah?  :o

Its not a foundation we need to know. Your 12 aren’t mentioned in the Quran.
Get over it.
Title: Re: Twelve Leaders of Quraysh
Post by: zaid_ibn_ali on July 28, 2018, 03:09:16 PM
Btw Iceman didn’t reply when I busted him for being the user haqq786 who started this thread.
Wouldn’t surprise me if Ijtaba is his third username haha.
Title: Re: Twelve Leaders of Quraysh
Post by: Abu Muhammad on July 28, 2018, 03:13:25 PM
When Nabi Isa (a.s) lived among Bani Israel he ruled them. However in those 600 years Nabi Isa (a.s) was not living amongst Bani Israel so it can be understood he did not rule but Banu Israel in those 600 years were to believe in the Prophethood of Nabi Isa (a.s) and follow his teachings & commandments.

Similarly Imam Mehdi (a.s) during his Ghaybat e Suhgra ruled thus confirming 12 Caliphs hadith. However when he (a.s) went in Ghaybat e Kubra he (a.s) is not ruling like Nabi Isa (a.s) after his ascension but we are to believe in his (a.s) Imamat and follow his teachings & commandments.

Errr... I thought there was an imam succeeding Isa (as) after he (as) was taken up to heaven. Therefore, the ummah at that time were supposed to be under the imamat of Isa (as)'s successor and not Isa (as) himself, right? ...  ;)
Title: Re: Twelve Leaders of Quraysh
Post by: Noor-us-Sunnah on July 28, 2018, 04:21:27 PM
Salaam.

According to Ahlul Sunnah there were many Caliphs who ruled over Muslims so they get confounded by the hadith of Twelve Caliphs. Its over thousand years the identity of those twelve caliphs remain unknown. Those who did try to investigate about identities of those 12 individuals ended up disagreeing with one another about their identities. Because of their ignorance & disagreement on 12 Caliphs Ahlul Sunnah are unable to provide the names of those 12 individuals with evidence.

On the other hand, al-Hamdulillah brother Haqq rightly stated that we Twelver Shias are at upper hand because we all Twelver Shias agree on who those 12 Caliphs are. There is no ignorance nor disagreement between Twelver Shias regarding their identities.

We Twelver Shias believes 12 Aimmah (a.s) ruled this Ummah in the same way Prophets (a.s) ruled in their Ummah. Aimmah (a.s) rule was like that of Prophets (a.s) and not like the rule of Nimrod or Pharaoh. Banu Ummaya & Banu Abbas ruled like Pharaohs & Nimrod so definitely they are excluded from 12 Caliph hadith.

Yup twelvers didnt disagree after twelfth Imam, but before that Shias did have a lot of disagreements. So Shiism before the twelfth Imam had a lot of disagreements in it. That goes till the third century.

While Sunnis are in agreement that about the initial Caliphs from amongst the twelve Caliphs, and they have backing from the hadeeth of Prophet(saws) which is a hujjah on Muslims.
Title: Re: Twelve Leaders of Quraysh
Post by: Abu Muhammad on July 30, 2018, 03:54:42 PM
Errr... I thought there was an imam succeeding Isa (as) after he (as) was taken up to heaven. Therefore, the ummah at that time were supposed to be under the imamat of Isa (as)'s successor and not Isa (as) himself, right? ...  ;)

@Ijtaba

-bump-
Title: Re: Twelve Leaders of Quraysh
Post by: muslim720 on July 30, 2018, 04:41:06 PM
It has been narrated by Abu Huraira that the Prophet (may pceace be upon him) said:

Banu Isra'il were ruled over by the Prophets. When one Prophet died, another succeeded him; but after me there is no prophet and there will be caliphs and they will be quite large in number. His Companions said: What do you order us to do (in case we come to have more than one Caliph)? He said: The one to whom allegiance is sworn first has a supremacy over the others. Concede to them their due rights (i. e. obey them). God (Himself) will question them about the subjects whom He had entrusted to them.


Reference: Sahih Muslim 1842 a
In-book reference: Book 33, Hadith 71
USC-MSA web (English) reference: Book 20, Hadith 4543


Two things jump out:

1.  "When one Prophet died, another succeeded him" does not affirm or negate a time gap between Prophets (asws).  In other words, this hadith is not a commentary on the time period between two Prophets (asws), whether there would be a waiting period or not (and how long this waiting period would be).  The next sentence "but after me there is no prophet" clarifies that the Holy Prophet (saw) was only making a point in regards to himself being the Seal of the Prophets. 

2.  This hadith is presented to substantiate the rule of the 12th Imam and by extension, Imamah in general, going back to Imam Ali (ra).  What the Shias fail to highlight is that the same tradition reads, "The one to whom allegiance is sworn first has a supremacy over the others" when it comes to Caliphs.  In other words, this narration is actually proof against Imamah because it shows that the Prophet (saw) endorsed the process of pledging allegiance/shura and established the superiority of the first one (to whom allegiance is pledged) over others.
Title: Re: Twelve Leaders of Quraysh
Post by: Hani on July 31, 2018, 07:10:50 AM
Common people how can you still misunderstand the report of the 12 Caliphs? Are we being intentionally too thick? There's nothing in that report that states ONLY 12 men will rule as Caliphs, nothing says the 12 are infallible, nothing that states the 12 are divinely chosen, nothing that states the 12 are descent or praiseworthy, nothing to state the 12 are the descendants of a specific man.... For the love of God guys, all it says is the condition of the religion will continue to be good till the rule of 12 Caliphs comes to an end, in other words the condition will deteriorate with time, that's all it's saying. Now you have these wacky Twelvers who want to add a million things to this prophecy and link it to their conveniently made-up narrative, then he tells you "We're following the instructions of the Prophet (saw)" NO YOU'RE NOT, He (saw) gave a million other instructions you aren't following, all the clear words he spoke are not being followed by you! Just a random prophecy with a number, that's all you folks are good at, numerology just like the esoteric frauds of medieval times.
Title: Re: Twelve Leaders of Quraysh
Post by: Rationalist on July 31, 2018, 01:31:11 PM
It has been narrated by Abu Huraira that the Prophet (may pceace be upon him) said:

Banu Isra'il were ruled over by the Prophets. When one Prophet died, another succeeded him; but after me there is no prophet and there will be caliphs and they will be quite large in number. His Companions said: What do you order us to do (in case we come to have more than one Caliph)? He said: The one to whom allegiance is sworn first has a supremacy over the others. Concede to them their due rights (i. e. obey them). God (Himself) will question them about the subjects whom He had entrusted to them.


Reference: Sahih Muslim 1842 a
In-book reference: Book 33, Hadith 71
USC-MSA web (English) reference: Book 20, Hadith 4543
Abu Huraira hadith are also problematic. His hadith say there is no Prophet between Isa (as) and Prophet Muhammad (pbuh). I disagree. There were Prophets in between. Surah Yasin mentions them implicitly.
 
Quote
During those 600 years there was no apparent Prophet like at present there is no apparent Imam.

Nabi Isa (a.s) did not die and was taken up alive to Heavens like Imam Mehdi (a.s) did not die and went alive into Ghaybah.

Nabi Isa (a.s) will come (descend from Heavens) in the End of times like Imam Mehdi (a.s) will come (out of Ghaybah) in the End of times.

The Ummah does not have an ijma on this. Some Muslims believe Prophet Isa (as) died. I believe Imam Ghazali had this view. In fact even Shaykh Saduq had this view. So again your qiyas is flawed.
Title: Re: Twelve Leaders of Quraysh
Post by: Ijtaba on August 02, 2018, 03:27:56 PM
Yup twelvers didnt disagree after twelfth Imam, but before that Shias did have a lot of disagreements. So Shiism before the twelfth Imam had a lot of disagreements in it. That goes till the third century.

While Sunnis are in agreement that about the initial Caliphs from amongst the twelve Caliphs, and they have backing from the hadeeth of Prophet(saws) which is a hujjah on Muslims.

We Twelvers had a lot of disagreements before Twelfth Imam (a.s). Care to list those disagreements i.e. on which Twelver Imam's (a.s) did Shias disagree and how did that disagreement disappear?

Sunnis are in agreement about initial Caliphs from Twelve Caliphs with hujjah... please provide that hadith which is hujjah on Muslims. What about remaining Caliphs? No hadith regarding remaining caliphs of Twelve Caliphs? Is Imam Mehdi (a.s) included in the remaining Caliphs of Twelve Caliphs? If yes the what about in-between caliphs i.e. Caliphs between Initial Caliphs and Imam Mehdi (a.s)?
Title: Re: Twelve Leaders of Quraysh
Post by: Ijtaba on August 02, 2018, 03:34:17 PM
Errr... I thought there was an imam succeeding Isa (as) after he (as) was taken up to heaven. Therefore, the ummah at that time were supposed to be under the imamat of Isa (as)'s successor and not Isa (as) himself, right? ...  ;)

Yes, we Twelvers believe that Nabi Isa (a.s) had a successor named Shamoun (a.s) as according to us Twelvers every Nabi (a.s) has a successor. I had replied in context with the hadith in which it was stated that a Prophet (a.s) used to succeed in ruling Bani Israel after the death of Prophet (a.s).
Title: Re: Twelve Leaders of Quraysh
Post by: Ijtaba on August 02, 2018, 03:45:58 PM
Two things jump out:

1.  "When one Prophet died, another succeeded him" does not affirm or negate a time gap between Prophets (asws).  In other words, this hadith is not a commentary on the time period between two Prophets (asws), whether there would be a waiting period or not (and how long this waiting period would be).  The next sentence "but after me there is no prophet" clarifies that the Holy Prophet (saw) was only making a point in regards to himself being the Seal of the Prophets.

SURAH 5:19 (SAHIH INTERNATIONAL)
O People of the Scripture, there has come to you Our Messenger to make clear to you [the religion] after a period [of suspension] of messengers, lest you say, "There came not to us any bringer of good tidings or a warner." But there has come to you a bringer of good tidings and a warner. And Allah is over all things competent.

Messengers used to succeed one another but there was a gap between Nabi Isa (a.s) and Nabi Mohammed (s.a.w.w). So the hadiths is saying that in Bani Israel after the death of a Prophet (a.s) another Prophet (a.s) would succeed him (a.s) in ruling Bani Israel.

2.  This hadith is presented to substantiate the rule of the 12th Imam and by extension, Imamah in general, going back to Imam Ali (ra).  What the Shias fail to highlight is that the same tradition reads, "The one to whom allegiance is sworn first has a supremacy over the others" when it comes to Caliphs.  In other words, this narration is actually proof against Imamah because it shows that the Prophet (saw) endorsed the process of pledging allegiance/shura and established the superiority of the first one (to whom allegiance is pledged) over others.

May I know how many Caliphs were pledged allegiance through the process of Shura as endorsed by the Prophet (s.a.w.w)?

Also in the time of ibn Zubayr and Yazid/Marwan who was the true Caliph as they were 2 Caliphs?
Title: Re: Twelve Leaders of Quraysh
Post by: Ijtaba on August 02, 2018, 03:52:18 PM
Abu Huraira hadith are also problematic. His hadith say there is no Prophet between Isa (as) and Prophet Muhammad (pbuh). I disagree. There were Prophets in between. Surah Yasin mentions them implicitly.

SURAH 5:19 (SAHIH INTERNATIONAL)

O People of the Scripture, there has come to you Our Messenger to make clear to you [the religion] after a period [of suspension] of messengers, lest you say, "There came not to us any bringer of good tidings or a warner." But there has come to you a bringer of good tidings and a warner. And Allah is over all things competent.
 
The Ummah does not have an ijma on this. Some Muslims believe Prophet Isa (as) died. I believe Imam Ghazali had this view. In fact even Shaykh Saduq had this view. So again your qiyas is flawed.

Evidence provided by Ghazali and Shaykh Saduq for their such belief?

And what about following Ayats?

SURAH 43:58-61 (SAHIH INTERNATIONAL)

And when the son of Mary was presented as an example, immediately your people laughed aloud.

And they said, "Are our gods better, or is he?" They did not present the comparison except for [mere] argument. But, [in fact], they are a people prone to dispute.

Jesus was not but a servant upon whom We bestowed favor, and We made him an example for the Children of Israel.
And if We willed, We could have made [instead] of you angels succeeding [one another] on the earth.

And indeed, Jesus will be [a sign for] knowledge of the Hour, so be not in doubt of it, and follow Me. This is a straight path.
Title: Re: Twelve Leaders of Quraysh
Post by: Rationalist on August 02, 2018, 04:31:54 PM
SURAH 5:19 (SAHIH INTERNATIONAL)

O People of the Scripture, there has come to you Our Messenger to make clear to you [the religion] after a period [of suspension] of messengers, lest you say, "There came not to us any bringer of good tidings or a warner." But there has come to you a bringer of good tidings and a warner. And Allah is over all things competent.

Are you shooting yourself on the foot witht this verse? If the suspension is present than the Imamate is supsended as per your anaology.  Anyways messengers coming after Isa (as) were  not Israeli.

Surat Yasin 36:13-14:

وَاضْرِبْ لَهُم مَّثَلًا أَصْحَابَ الْقَرْيَةِ إِذْ جَاءَهَا الْمُرْسَلُونَ إِذْ أَرْسَلْنَا إِلَيْهِمُ اثْنَيْنِ فَكَذَّبُوهُمَا فَعَزَّزْنَا بِثَالِثٍ فَقَالُوا إِنَّا إِلَيْكُم مُّرْسَلُونَ

And present to them an example: the people of the city, when the messengers came to it when We sent to them two but they denied them, so We strengthened them with a third, and they said, "Indeed, we are messengers



Quote
Evidence provided by Ghazali and Shaykh Saduq for their such belief?

For Ghazali refer to this link.

https://shaykhatabekshukurov.com/2018/05/05/prophet-jesus-as-return-between-myth-and-reality-part-1/

For Shaykh Saduq


http://www.sicm.org.uk/index.php?page=suduk/Suduk18

Quote

And what about following Ayats?

Everyone has a legit defense. Refer to the article.
Title: Re: Twelve Leaders of Quraysh
Post by: Ijtaba on August 02, 2018, 04:53:25 PM
Are you shooting yourself on the foot witht this verse? If the suspension is present than the Imamate is supsended as per your anaology.  Anyways messengers coming after Isa (as) were  not Israeli.

Surat Yasin 36:13-14:

وَاضْرِبْ لَهُم مَّثَلًا أَصْحَابَ الْقَرْيَةِ إِذْ جَاءَهَا الْمُرْسَلُونَ إِذْ أَرْسَلْنَا إِلَيْهِمُ اثْنَيْنِ فَكَذَّبُوهُمَا فَعَزَّزْنَا بِثَالِثٍ فَقَالُوا إِنَّا إِلَيْكُم مُّرْسَلُونَ

And present to them an example: the people of the city, when the messengers came to it when We sent to them two but they denied them, so We strengthened them with a third, and they said, "Indeed, we are messengers

This is news to me. Who were these non-Israeli messengers and to which nation they were sent because as for the Ayat I gave ALLAH (SWT) is addressing People of the Book (Jews & Christians) that a Messenger has been sent towards them after a period of messengers.

I will be reading the links given by you and respond them accordingly.
Title: Re: Twelve Leaders of Quraysh
Post by: Ijtaba on August 02, 2018, 05:15:17 PM
There's nothing significant in stating the number 12 as those 12 men aren't the ONLY Caliphs, nor infallible, nor divinely chosen, nor praiseworthy, nor descendants of a specific man (except that they are from Quraysh)... but what hadith is stating is the condition of the religion that will continue to be good till the rule of 12 unknown Caliphs comes to an end, in other words the condition will deteriorate with time, that's all it's saying.

May I know out of four Khalifa tur Rashida, Banu Ummaya, Banu Abbas - all of whom belong to Quraysh + Ottomon Empire + Present modern Muslim Kings & Leaders... why only the rule of 12 unknown individuals are mentioned? Ahlul Sunnah is trying to say that the mentioning of 12 unknown individuals has no significance but what Prophet (s.a.w.w) wanted to convey is that religion will deteriorate after 12 unknown Qurayshi Caliphs have ruled. Simple as that.

May I also know if the mentioning of 12 unknown individuals meant nothing or is insignificant then why did Sahabas recite loudly ALLAH U AKBAR when Prophet (s.a.w.w) mentioned religion remaining strong till the time of twelve caliphs?

Narrated Jabir b. Samurah:
I heard the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) say: This religion will continue to be strong till the time of twelve caliphs. The people then uttered: Allah is more great and uproared. He then silently a word which I could not understand. So I said to my father: What did he say, father ? He said: All of them will belong to Quraish.


Grade   : Sahih (Al-Albani)   
Reference    : Sunan Abi Dawud 4280
In-book reference    : Book 38, Hadith 2
English translation    : Book 37, Hadith 4267
Title: Re: Twelve Leaders of Quraysh
Post by: Rationalist on August 02, 2018, 05:51:38 PM
This is news to me. Who were these non-Israeli messengers and to which nation they were sent because as for the Ayat I gave ALLAH (SWT) is addressing People of the Book (Jews & Christians) that a Messenger has been sent towards them after a period of messengers.

I will be reading the links given by you and respond them accordingly.

The narrations we have only give one Prophets name. We dont have the names of the other two. This Prophet's name is Khalid bin Sinan. Even 12er Shia have a hadith aboit him.

https://www.al-islam.org/hayat-al-qulub-vol-1-allamah-muhammad-baqir-al-majlisi/account-khalid-bin-sinan

Title: Re: Twelve Leaders of Quraysh
Post by: muslim720 on August 03, 2018, 02:16:27 AM
Messengers used to succeed one another but there was a gap between Nabi Isa (a.s) and Nabi Mohammed (s.a.w.w). So the hadiths is saying that in Bani Israel after the death of a Prophet (a.s) another Prophet (a.s) would succeed him (a.s) in ruling Bani Israel.

No matter which way you present the Qur'anic verse or the hadith, it has nothing to do with the concept of Imamah, let alone your selected 12 Imams (ra).

Quote
May I know how many Caliphs were pledged allegiance through the process of Shura as endorsed by the Prophet (s.a.w.w)?

At least the first four!  For the first three, even Imam Ali (ra) was a willing participant in bayah so being his follower, you should be the last person to object.

Quote
Also in the time of ibn Zubayr and Yazid/Marwan who was the true Caliph as they were 2 Caliphs?

...has no bearing on my aqeedah!
Title: Re: Twelve Leaders of Quraysh
Post by: Abu Muhammad on August 03, 2018, 05:07:41 AM
Yes, we Twelvers believe that Nabi Isa (a.s) had a successor named Shamoun (a.s) as according to us Twelvers every Nabi (a.s) has a successor. I had replied in context with the hadith in which it was stated that a Prophet (a.s) used to succeed in ruling Bani Israel after the death of Prophet (a.s).

Then, from your answer above, it clearly shows that some other infallibles were ruling the ummah after Isa (as) was taken up to heaven and not Isa (as) himself. Thank you...

Hence, your comparison between the 12th Imam and Isa (as) has failed.

So does your premise below when it comes to your 12th Imam:
We Twelver Shias believes 12 Aimmah (a.s) ruled this Ummah in the same way Prophets (a.s) ruled in their Ummah. Aimmah (a.s) rule was like that of Prophets (a.s) and not like the rule of Nimrod or Pharaoh. Banu Ummaya & Banu Abbas ruled like Pharaohs & Nimrod so definitely they are excluded from 12 Caliph hadith.
Title: Re: Twelve Leaders of Quraysh
Post by: Ijtaba on August 03, 2018, 10:39:32 AM
The narrations we have only give one Prophets name. We dont have the names of the other two. This Prophet's name is Khalid bin Sinan. Even 12er Shia have a hadith aboit him.

https://www.al-islam.org/hayat-al-qulub-vol-1-allamah-muhammad-baqir-al-majlisi/account-khalid-bin-sinan

Below are hadiths which unequivocally mentions that there has been no Prophet/Messenger raised between Nabi Isa (a.s) and Nabi Mohammed (s.a.w.w):

Narrated Abu Huraira:

I heard Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) saying, "I am the nearest of all the people to the son of Mary, and all the prophets are paternal brothers, and there has been no prophet between me and him (i.e. Jesus).


Reference: Sahih al-Bukhari 3442
In-book reference: Book 60, Hadith 112
USC-MSA web (English) reference: Vol. 4, Book 55, Hadith 651



Abu Huraira reported Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) as saying:

I am most akin to the son of Mary among the whole of mankind and the Prophets are of different mothers, but of one religion, and no Prophet was raised between me and him (Jesus Christ).


Reference: Sahih Muslim 2365 a
In-book reference: Book 43, Hadith 188
USC-MSA web (English) reference: Book 30, Hadith 5834



Abu Huraira reported Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) as saying:

I am most akin to Jesus Christ among the whole of mankind, and all the Prophets are of different mothers but belong to one religion and no Prophet was raised between me and Jesus.

Reference: Sahih Muslim 2365 b
In-book reference: Book 43, Hadith 189
USC-MSA web (English) reference: Book 30, Hadith 5835



Abu Huraira reported many ahadith from Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) and one is that Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) said:

I am most close to Jesus, son of Mary, among the whole of mankind in this worldly life and the next life. They said: Allah's Messenger how is it? Thereupon he said: Prophets are brothers in faith, having different mothers. Their religion is, however, one and there is no Apostle between us (between I and Jesus Christ).


Reference: Sahih Muslim 2365 c
In-book reference: Book 43, Hadith 190
USC-MSA web (English) reference: Book 30, Hadith 5836



Hadith proving following:

- No Prophet raised between Nabi Isa (a.s) and Nabi Mohammed (s.a.w.w)

- Nabi Isa (a.s) descending and not resurrecting thus indicating that Nabi Isa (a.s) did not die but was taken up to heavens alive.

- Nabi Isa (a.s) dying.


Narrated Abu Hurayrah:

The Prophet (ﷺ) said: There is no prophet between me and him, that is, Jesus (ﷺ). He will descent (to the earth). When you see him, recognise him: a man of medium height, reddish fair, wearing two light yellow garments, looking as if drops were falling down from his head though it will not be wet. He will fight the people for the cause of Islam. He will break the cross, kill swine, and abolish jizyah. Allah will perish all religions except Islam. He will destroy the Antichrist and will live on the earth for forty years and then he will die. The Muslims will pray over him.


Grade   : Sahih (Al-Albani)   
Reference    : Sunan Abi Dawud 4324
In-book reference    : Book 39, Hadith 34
English translation    : Book 38, Hadith 4310


Abu Huraira proving my interpretation of the Ayat which I had given before to be correct:

Narrated Abu Huraira:

Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) said, "By Him in Whose Hands my soul is, surely (Jesus,) the son of Mary will soon descend amongst you and will judge mankind justly (as a Just Ruler); he will break the Cross and kill the pigs and there will be no Jizya (i.e. taxation taken from non Muslims). Money will be in abundance so that nobody will accept it, and a single prostration to Allah (in prayer) will be better than the whole world and whatever is in it." Abu Huraira added "If you wish, you can recite (this verse of the Holy Book): -- 'And there is none Of the people of the Scriptures (Jews and Christians) But must believe in him (i.e Jesus as an Apostle of Allah and a human being) Before his death. And on the Day of Judgment He will be a witness Against them." (4.159) (See Fath-ul-Bari, Page 302 Vol 7)


Reference: Sahih al-Bukhari 3448
In-book reference: Book 60, Hadith 118
USC-MSA web (English) reference: Vol. 4, Book 55, Hadith 657
Title: Re: Twelve Leaders of Quraysh
Post by: Ijtaba on August 03, 2018, 10:50:39 AM
No matter which way you present the Qur'anic verse or the hadith, it has nothing to do with the concept of Imamah, let alone your selected 12 Imams (ra).

Its your opinion. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion but it isn't necessary that their opinion is a fact.

At least the first four!  For the first three, even Imam Ali (ra) was a willing participant in bayah so being his follower, you should be the last person to object.

Then what about rest of them? I mean to ask about Banu Ummaya, Banu Abbas, Ottomon Empire, Modern era Rulers? As they have not been pledged allegiance through the process of Shura as endorsed by the Prophet (s.a.w.w) so is their leadership illegitimate?

...has no bearing on my aqeedah!

I am asking who was legitimate Caliph at that time since there were two caliphs... one at Medina and one at Syria. In this situation who was rightful Caliph according to Prophetic Hadith (as there can't be two caliphs at one time)?
Title: Re: Twelve Leaders of Quraysh
Post by: Ijtaba on August 03, 2018, 10:57:43 AM
Then, from your answer above, it clearly shows that some other infallibles were ruling the ummah after Isa (as) was taken up to heaven and not Isa (as) himself. Thank you...

Hence, your comparison between the 12th Imam and Isa (as) has failed.

But we Twelvers also believe that at any given time Infallible should be on earth otherwise the earth would perish. When Nabi Isa (a.s) was taken up to Heavens there needed to be an Infallible on earth.

As of now Imam Mehdi (a.s) is still on Earth so no need for Infallible to succeed him (a.s). If Imam Mehdi (a.s) was to be taken up to the Heavens alive then definitely he would be succeed by another Infallible just like Nabi Isa (a.s) succeeded by another infallible (Shamoun a.s)
Title: Re: Twelve Leaders of Quraysh
Post by: wannabe on August 03, 2018, 11:08:26 AM
https://www.quora.com/Was-there-any-prophet-between-Jesus-and-Mohammed
a quote from an answer with the most upvotes
Quote
By comparing these two traditions and the verse of the Holy Quran we understand that between Jesus and Mohammad (S)' time there were different pious people that represented Allah by different responsibilities. For example, some of them were famous prophets and the others were not prophet and they were just a Hujja of Allah on earth or a successor of the previous prophets and in many occasions they were not very famous.
But we can know some of them by the verses of the Holy Quran, as says; "When We sent to them two [apostles], they impugned both of them. Then We reinforced them with a third, and they said," We have indeed been sent to you." [36:14]
Under this verse it has been said that: these two apostles were John or Toman or Baruz or Marus or Jonah and the third one was Simon/Peter the true successor of Jesus.
Title: Re: Twelve Leaders of Quraysh
Post by: Abu Muhammad on August 03, 2018, 11:09:54 AM
But we Twelvers also believe that at any given time Infallible should be on earth otherwise the earth would perish. When Nabi Isa (a.s) was taken up to Heavens there needed to be an Infallible on earth.

As of now Imam Mehdi (a.s) is still on Earth so no need for Infallible to succeed him (a.s). If Imam Mehdi (a.s) was to be taken up to the Heavens alive then definitely he would be succeed by another Infallible just like Nabi Isa (a.s) succeeded by another infallible (Shamoun a.s)

Thank you again. You were just strengthening my argument. Maybe you need to re-read our previous posts to understand why I said that... ☺

Hence, your previous comparison between the 12th Imam and Isa (as) has completely failed.
Title: Re: Twelve Leaders of Quraysh
Post by: Rationalist on August 03, 2018, 11:26:10 AM
Below are hadiths which unequivocally mentions that there has been no Prophet/Messenger raised between Nabi Isa (a.s) and Nabi
Refer to reply 24. I already  showed you disagreement with Abu Huraira. In fact the hadith on Khalid bin Sinan are in the 12er Shia books too. My link is from a 12er Shia sitr.
Title: Re: Twelve Leaders of Quraysh
Post by: wannabe on August 03, 2018, 11:49:07 AM
here's a confusion from a 21st century man
https://www.reddit.com/r/islam/comments/90wbj6/why_there_is_no_new_prophets_or_messengers/
while i have the answer as to why there's no need for a new prophet or messenger, i'm quite at a loss for words as to ....
It has been narrated by Abu Huraira that the Prophet (may pceace be upon him) said:

Banu Isra'il were ruled over by the Prophets. When one Prophet died, another succeeded him; but after me there is no prophet and there will be caliphs and they will be quite large in number. His Companions said: What do you order us to do (in case we come to have more than one Caliph)? He said: The one to whom allegiance is sworn first has a supremacy over the others. Concede to them their due rights (i. e. obey them). God (Himself) will question them about the subjects whom He had entrusted to them.


Reference: Sahih Muslim 1842 a
In-book reference: Book 33, Hadith 71
USC-MSA web (English) reference: Book 20, Hadith 4543
i believe, human being has no say in choosing who should be a prophet. And the prophets of banu israel preserved the teaching of the previous Messenger.
thus, it struck me as quite odd:
Allah chose the succeeding prophets for banu israel but man chose the succeeding caliphs for ummah Muhammad saw.
i tend to agree with bro Rationalist - this hadith is problematic.
Allahu a'lam.
Title: Re: Twelve Leaders of Quraysh
Post by: Ijtaba on August 03, 2018, 11:55:30 AM
Thank you again. You were just strengthening my argument. Maybe you need to re-read our previous posts to understand why I said that... ☺

Hence, your previous comparison between the 12th Imam and Isa (as) has completely failed.

I don't think so. I believe that your argument is weak. My comparison of Imam Mehdi (a.s) with Nabi Isa (a.s) is because I am comparing the rule of Prophethood with rule of Imamah and not because I believe Imam Mehdi (a.s) is a Prophet like Nabi Isa (a.s).

However, Jews and Christians share the same opinion like you when we Muslims say to them that a Prophet unto Moses is none other than Nabi Mohammed (s.a.w.w) as well as present our evidences by highlighting the similarities between the two Prophets (a.s). What would you say about that? Are Jews and Christians arguments strong for not accepting Nabi Mohammed (s.a.w.w) a Prophet like Nabi Musa (a.s)?

We Twelvers believe Imam Mehdi (a.s) shares certain qualities with two Prophet (a.s):

- Nabi Isa (a.s) - Both will come in End of Times and fight evil forces at that time to bring peace and justice to earth.

- Nabi Khidr - Both are in Ghaybah e Kubra

Now we Twelvers don't believe that Imam Mehdi (a.s) is identical to these two Prophets (a.s) in the sense that his (Imam a.s) life should exactly be like them (Prophets a.s) e.g. Imam Mehdi (a.s) was not born without a father like Nabi Isa (a.s), etc.
Title: Re: Twelve Leaders of Quraysh
Post by: Ijtaba on August 03, 2018, 11:57:55 AM
Refer to reply 24. I already  showed you disagreement with Abu Huraira. In fact the hadith on Khalid bin Sinan are in the 12er Shia books too. My link is from a 12er Shia sitr.

Is the Shii'te hadith authentic?

Ahlul Sunnah believes all the hadiths which I gave to be authentic.
Title: Re: Twelve Leaders of Quraysh
Post by: Rationalist on August 03, 2018, 02:09:11 PM
Is the Shii'te hadith authentic?

Ahlul Sunnah believes all the hadiths which I gave to be authentic.

Im not sure about the 12er Shia grading. The issue is the narrations are not  popular and less in number. On the other hand, I brought the Quran and the timeline of Surah Yasin comes in after Prophet Isa's(as) timeline.
Title: Re: Twelve Leaders of Quraysh
Post by: Rationalist on August 03, 2018, 02:12:42 PM
I don't think so. I believe that your argument is weak. My comparison of Imam Mehdi (a.s) with Nabi Isa (a.s) is because I am comparing the rule of Prophethood with rule of Imamah and not because I believe Imam Mehdi (a.s) is a Prophet like Nabi Isa (a.s).

However, Jews and Christians share the same opinion like you when we Muslims say to them that a Prophet unto Moses is none other than Nabi Mohammed (s.a.w.w) as well as present our evidences by highlighting the similarities between the two Prophets (a.s). What would you say about that? Are Jews and Christians arguments strong for not accepting Nabi Mohammed (s.a.w.w) a Prophet like Nabi Musa (a.s)?

We Twelvers believe Imam Mehdi (a.s) shares certain qualities with two Prophet (a.s):

- Nabi Isa (a.s) - Both will come in End of Times and fight evil forces at that time to bring peace and justice to earth.

- Nabi Khidr - Both are in Ghaybah e Kubra

Now we Twelvers don't believe that Imam Mehdi (a.s) is identical to these two Prophets (a.s) in the sense that his (Imam a.s) life should exactly be like them (Prophets a.s) e.g. Imam Mehdi (a.s) was not born without a father like Nabi Isa (a.s), etc.

Isnt the Gaiyba quality shared by Dajjal as well? In fact since Shaykh Saduq believed that Prophet Isa (as) died he compared the Mahdi's gaiyba to the gaiyba of Dajjal.
Title: Re: Twelve Leaders of Quraysh
Post by: Ijtaba on August 03, 2018, 03:10:37 PM
Isnt the Gaiyba quality shared by Dajjal as well? In fact since Shaykh Saduq believed that Prophet Isa (as) died he compared the Mahdi's gaiyba to the gaiyba of Dajjal.

I am not responsible for Shaykh Saduq's beliefs. He may believe whatever he wants but he is not hujjah for me.

As for Dajjal's ghaybah... it should be noted that for a ghaybah to occur a person should have been born (literally come into this world) and then afterwards go into occultation. According to Ahlul Sunnah has dajjal been born? If yes then when did his birth take place and who witnessed his birth?

If you bring the hadith of island then it should be noted Dajjal is not in Ghaybah as Sahabas did see Dajjal and had conversation with him. According to the hadith Dajjal is chained in some unknown island and would be released during End times. We Shias do not believe such thing about our twelfth Imam.
Title: Re: Twelve Leaders of Quraysh
Post by: Ijtaba on August 03, 2018, 03:20:03 PM
Im not sure about the 12er Shia grading. The issue is the narrations are not  popular and less in number. On the other hand, I brought the Quran and the timeline of Surah Yasin comes in after Prophet Isa's(as) timeline.

On the contrary... Quran says otherwise:

SURAH 5:19 (SAHIH INTERNATIONAL)
O People of the Scripture, there has come to you Our Messenger to make clear to you [the religion] after a period [of suspension] of messengers, lest you say, "There came not to us any bringer of good tidings or a warner." But there has come to you a bringer of good tidings and a warner. And Allah is over all things competent.

As for the Surah Yasin... do you have any authentic report or reliable evidence that the Messengers referred in al-Quran came after Nabi Isa (a.s)?

However I will give the link of ibn Kathir's tafsir for the verses mentioned by you:

http://www.qtafsir.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1491&Itemid=92

By the way no Prophet by the name of Khalid bin Sinan is mentioned in ibn Kathir's tafsir of these verses.
Title: Re: Twelve Leaders of Quraysh
Post by: Rationalist on August 03, 2018, 03:57:34 PM
On the contrary... Quran says otherwise:

Having Prophets after Prophet Isa (as) does not contradict this verse. The verse could imply suspension after those Prophets.
Quote
As for the Surah Yasin... do you have any authentic report or reliable evidence that the Messengers referred in al-Quran came after Nabi Isa (a.s)?

Yes the era the Surah is referring to happened after Prophet Isa (as) timeline. Plus the verses say 3 Messengers were sent.
Quote
However I will give the link of ibn Kathir's tafsir for the verses mentioned by you:

http://www.qtafsir.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1491&Itemid=92

By the way no Prophet by the name of Khalid bin Sinan is mentioned in ibn Kathir's tafsir of these verses.

Ok but how this tafsir again works against you.
 We reinforced them with a third,) means, `We supported and strengthened them with a third Messenger. ' Ibn Jurayj narrated from Wahb bin Sulayman, from Shu`ayb Al-Jaba'i, "The names of the first two Messengers were Sham`un and Yuhanna, and the name of the third was Bulus, and the city was Antioch (Antakiyah).

﴿فَقَالُواْ﴾

(and they said) means, to the people of that city,

﴿إِنَّآ إِلَيْكُمْ مُّرْسَلُونَ﴾

(Verily, we have been sent to you as Messengers.) meaning, `from your Lord Who created you and Who commands you to worship Him Alone with no partners or associates.' This was the view of Abu Al-`Aliyah. Qatadah bin Di`amah claimed that they were messengers of the Messiah, peace b
Title: Re: Twelve Leaders of Quraysh
Post by: muslim720 on August 04, 2018, 01:54:39 AM
Its your opinion. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion but it isn't necessary that their opinion is a fact.

It is a fact.  Had you had the slightest shred of evidence in favor of Imamah, let alone an unambiguous verse, which could stand scrutiny, you would have been screaming it at the top of your lungs.

Quote
Then what about rest of them? I mean to ask about Banu Ummaya, Banu Abbas, Ottomon Empire, Modern era Rulers? As they have not been pledged allegiance through the process of Shura as endorsed by the Prophet (s.a.w.w) so is their leadership illegitimate?

Why do you concern yourself with the process of Shura as endorsed by the Holy Prophet (saw) when you deem the entire concept to be illegitimate?  My point, without turning this into a historical discussion to give you what you are seeking (an escape route), is this: can you start by acknowledging the legitimacy of the first three Caliphs (ra) just like Imam Ali (ra) accepted them?

Quote
I am asking who was legitimate Caliph at that time since there were two caliphs... one at Medina and one at Syria. In this situation who was rightful Caliph according to Prophetic Hadith (as there can't be two caliphs at one time)?

Pledge for Yazeed was taken by force and the answer to your unintelligent query is answered in the same narration you quoted.

It has been narrated by Abu Huraira that the Prophet (may pceace be upon him) said:
Banu Isra'il were ruled over by the Prophets. When one Prophet died, another succeeded him; but after me there is no prophet and there will be caliphs and they will be quite large in number.  His Companions said: What do you order us to do (in case we come to have more than one Caliph)?  He said: The one to whom allegiance is sworn first has a supremacy over the others.  Concede to them their due rights (i. e. obey them). God (Himself) will question them about the subjects whom He had entrusted to them.

To answer your question, the one to whom people pledged allegiance first (without being forced) was elected as per Shura condoned by the Holy Prophet (saw). 

Next time I suggest you read your own evidences carefully!
Title: Re: Twelve Leaders of Quraysh
Post by: wannabe on August 05, 2018, 01:47:36 AM
It is a fact.  Had you had the slightest shred of evidence in favor of Imamah, let alone an unambiguous verse, which could stand scrutiny, you would have been screaming it at the top of your lungs.

Why do you concern yourself with the process of Shura as endorsed by the Holy Prophet (saw) when you deem the entire concept to be illegitimate?  My point, without turning this into a historical discussion to give you what you are seeking (an escape route), is this: can you start by acknowledging the legitimacy of the first three Caliphs (ra) just like Imam Ali (ra) accepted them?

Pledge for Yazeed was taken by force and the answer to your unintelligent query is answered in the same narration you quoted.

It has been narrated by Abu Huraira that the Prophet (may pceace be upon him) said:
Banu Isra'il were ruled over by the Prophets. When one Prophet died, another succeeded him; but after me there is no prophet and there will be caliphs and they will be quite large in number.  His Companions said: What do you order us to do (in case we come to have more than one Caliph)?  He said: The one to whom allegiance is sworn first has a supremacy over the others.  Concede to them their due rights (i. e. obey them). God (Himself) will question them about the subjects whom He had entrusted to them.

To answer your question, the one to whom people pledged allegiance first (without being forced) was elected as per Shura condoned by the Holy Prophet (saw). 

Next time I suggest you read your own evidences carefully!
what you've said, is acceptable to you but maybe not to others. IMO, this debate will go on endlessly.
what is of immediate concern to a 21st century man like me, is:
what did the imams say about people following them? i mean, are there any reports that say, the imams (including  the 12 imams) gave any guarantee that they won't dissociate from their followers, on the Judgement Day? i'm referring  to the verse Quran 2:165-167.
AFAIK, the verse 2:165 apparently ONLY exlcuded MUKMIN from this unjust people. Thus muslim who love other than Allah (women/men, properties, families, etc...) as they love Allah, will be part of this group of people.
Sahih International
Quran 2:165-167
And [yet], among the people are those who take other than Allah as equals [to Him]. They love them as they [should] love Allah . But those who believe are stronger in love for Allah . And if only they who have wronged would consider [that] when they see the punishment, [they will be certain] that all power belongs to Allah and that Allah is severe in punishment.
 [And they should consider that] when those who have been followed disassociate themselves from those who followed [them], and they [all] see the punishment, and cut off from them are the ties [of relationship],
Those who followed will say, "If only we had another turn [at worldly life] so we could disassociate ourselves from them as they have disassociated themselves from us." Thus will Allah show them their deeds as regrets upon them. And they are never to emerge from the Fire.
Title: Re: Twelve Leaders of Quraysh
Post by: Ijtaba on August 09, 2018, 12:41:13 PM
Having Prophets after Prophet Isa (as) does not contradict this verse. The verse could imply suspension after those Prophets.
Yes the era the Surah is referring to happened after Prophet Isa (as) timeline. Plus the verses say 3 Messengers were sent.

Its your opinion. Provide evidence for Messengers coming after Nabi Isa (a.s)

Ok but how this tafsir again works against you.
 We reinforced them with a third,) means, `We supported and strengthened them with a third Messenger. ' Ibn Jurayj narrated from Wahb bin Sulayman, from Shu`ayb Al-Jaba'i, "The names of the first two Messengers were Sham`un and Yuhanna, and the name of the third was Bulus, and the city was Antioch (Antakiyah).

﴿فَقَالُواْ﴾

(and they said) means, to the people of that city,

﴿إِنَّآ إِلَيْكُمْ مُّرْسَلُونَ﴾

(Verily, we have been sent to you as Messengers.) meaning, `from your Lord Who created you and Who commands you to worship Him Alone with no partners or associates.' This was the view of Abu Al-`Aliyah. Qatadah bin Di`amah claimed that they were messengers of the Messiah, peace b

Did you carefully read the link I gave?

The tafsir says following:

Quote
...(The second) is that the people of Antioch did believe in the messengers sent by the Messiah to them. Antioch was the first city to believe in the Messiah, and it is one of the four cities in which there are Christian patriarchs. These cities are: Jerusalem, because it is the city of the Messiah; Antioch, because it was the first city where all of the people believed in the Messiah; Alexandria, because it was in that city that they agreed to reform the hierarchy of patriarchs, metropolitans (archbishops), bishops, priests, deacons and monks; and Rome, because it is the city of the Emperor Constantine who supported and helped to establish their religion. When he adopted Constantinople as his city, the Patriarch of Rome moved there, as has been mentioned by several historian, such as Sa`id bin Batriq and others, both People of the Book and Muslims. If we accept that, then the people of Antioch were the first to believe, but Allah tells us that the people of this town rejected His Messengers and that He destroyed them with one Sayhah and lo! they (all) were still. And Allah knows best. (The third) is that the story of Antioch and the Disciples of the Messiah happened after the Tawrah had been revealed. Abu Sa`id Al-Khudri, may Allah be pleased with him, and others among the Salaf stated that after revealing the Tawrah, Allah, may He be blessed and exalted, did not destroy an entire nation by sending a punishment upon them. Rather, He commanded the believers to fight the idolators. They mentioned this when discussing the Ayah:

(And indeed We gave Musa -- after We had destroyed the generations of old -- the Scripture) (28:43). This implies that the city mentioned in the Qur'an is a city other than Antioch, as also stated by more than one of the Salaf. Or, if we wish to keep the same name, it is possible that it is another Antioch, not the one which is well-known, for it is not known that it (the famous Antioch) was destroyed, either during Christian times or before. And Allah knows best.


http://www.qtafsir.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1491&Itemid=92

Title: Re: Twelve Leaders of Quraysh
Post by: Ijtaba on August 09, 2018, 01:24:22 PM
It is a fact.  Had you had the slightest shred of evidence in favor of Imamah, let alone an unambiguous verse, which could stand scrutiny, you would have been screaming it at the top of your lungs.

In your opinion it is a fact. There are clear verses pointing to Imamah but its different thing when people interpret the clear verses according to their desires.

I want to know your view/opinion regarding a question which I have in my mind.

Often you see we Shias bringing the verse of Nabi Ibrahim (a.s) being made Imam for mankind. The verses afterwards tells us Nabi Ibrahim (a.s) asking ALLAH (SWT) to make Imams (a.s) from his (a.s) progeny also and ALLAH (SWT) answers that HIS (SWT) covenant does not include zalimun (i.e. oppressors). Now we both (Ahlul Sunnah & Twelvers) agree that ALLAH (SWT) did make Aimmah (a.s) in the progeny of Nabi Ibrahim (a.s) during the period of Prophethood.

My question is: Prophethood ended with Prophet Mohammed (s.a.w.w) being the Seal of Prophets but did the Imamah also end with Prophethood or continue to exist after Prophethood?

- If you believe that Imamah ended with Prophethood... can you provide any evidence of this belief?

- If you believe that Imamah did not end with Prophethood... then were the Aimmah (a.s) coming after Prophethood ended similar to Aimmah (a.s) during the period of Prophethood?

Why do you concern yourself with the process of Shura as endorsed by the Holy Prophet (saw) when you deem the entire concept to be illegitimate?  My point, without turning this into a historical discussion to give you what you are seeking (an escape route), is this: can you start by acknowledging the legitimacy of the first three Caliphs (ra) just like Imam Ali (ra) accepted them?

Escape route? I came over here to learn the viewpoints of Ahlul Sunnah.

Ahlul Sunnah believes the legitimacy of Caliphate through the process of Shura. All I did was ask if the Caliph is chosen without the process of Shura then according to Ahlul Sunnah would his Caliphate be deemed illegitimate? I was hoping for answer as Yes or No. If the answer would had been Yes then I would had further asked to gain knowledge so that I could know all the procedures of becoming legitimate Caliph in the eyes of Ahlul Sunnah.

Pledge for Yazeed was taken by force and the answer to your unintelligent query is answered in the same narration you quoted.

It has been narrated by Abu Huraira that the Prophet (may pceace be upon him) said:
Banu Isra'il were ruled over by the Prophets. When one Prophet died, another succeeded him; but after me there is no prophet and there will be caliphs and they will be quite large in number.  His Companions said: What do you order us to do (in case we come to have more than one Caliph)?  He said: The one to whom allegiance is sworn first has a supremacy over the others.  Concede to them their due rights (i. e. obey them). God (Himself) will question them about the subjects whom He had entrusted to them.

To answer your question, the one to whom people pledged allegiance first (without being forced) was elected as per Shura condoned by the Holy Prophet (saw).

Next time I suggest you read your own evidences carefully!

Wasn't Yazeed nominated by Muawiya like Umar was nominated by Abu Bakr? Muawiya followed the Sunnah of Abu Bakr in appointing his son as Caliph.

In Abdullah ibn Umar's view Yazid was pledged allegiance in accordance with the conditions enjoined by Allah and His Apostle (s.a.w.) and the pledge wasn't taken by force.

Narrated Nafi`:

When the people of Medina dethroned Yazid bin Muawiya, Ibn `Umar gathered his special friends and children and said, "I heard the Prophet (ﷺ) saying, 'A flag will be fixed for every betrayer on the Day of Resurrection,' and we have given the oath of allegiance to this person (Yazid) in accordance with the conditions enjoined by Allah and His Apostle and I do not know of anything more faithless than fighting a person who has been given the oath of allegiance in accordance with the conditions enjoined by Allah and His Apostle , and if ever I learn that any person among you has agreed to dethrone Yazid, by giving the oath of allegiance (to somebody else) then there will be separation between him and me."


Reference: Sahih al-Bukhari 7111
In-book reference: Book 92, Hadith 58
USC-MSA web (English) reference: Vol. 9, Book 88, Hadith 227
Title: Re: Twelve Leaders of Quraysh
Post by: muslim720 on August 09, 2018, 05:54:53 PM
There are clear verses pointing to Imamah but its different thing when people interpret the clear verses according to their desires.

Very well said!  Every verse that Shias present to support Imamah is a verse they have interpreted according to their desires.  You have recognized the symptom of the problem; if you could only fix it now.

Quote
My question is: Prophethood ended with Prophet Mohammed (s.a.w.w) being the Seal of Prophets but did the Imamah also end with Prophethood or continue to exist after Prophethood?

- If you believe that Imamah ended with Prophethood... can you provide any evidence of this belief?

- If you believe that Imamah did not end with Prophethood... then were the Aimmah (a.s) coming after Prophethood ended similar to Aimmah (a.s) during the period of Prophethood?

I do not believe in Imamah (the way Shias believe in it) so your question is invalid (whether I believe Imamah ended with Prophethood or continued after it).  This is a strawman!

What I believe is that Ibrahim (asws) was made an Imam over mankind as our role model which is why we are asked in the Qur'an to follow his religion.  Our Hajj rituals, for example, are replete of deeds that commemorate Ibrahim (asws) or replicate what he did.

My question to you is this: if Imamah was to stay with the 12 "infallible" Shi'i Imams (ra), why are we asked in the Qur'an to supplicate to Allah (swt) to make Imams from among us?  If Allah (swt) appoints Imams, as per the Shi'i narrative, why are we then reciting this du'a?

"And those who pray, 'Our Lord! Grant unto us wives and offspring who will be the comfort of our eyes, and give us (the grace) to lead the righteous.' " (Surah Al-Furqan verse 74)

Transliteration: Wa Al-Ladhīna Yaqūlūna Rabbanā Hab Lanā Min 'Azwājinā Wa Dhurrīyātinā Qurrata 'A`yunin Wa Aj`alnā Lilmuttaqīna 'Imāmāan

Quote
Escape route? I came over here to learn the viewpoints of Ahlul Sunnah.

Ahlul Sunnah believes the legitimacy of Caliphate through the process of Shura. All I did was ask if the Caliph is chosen without the process of Shura then according to Ahlul Sunnah would his Caliphate be deemed illegitimate?

You asked who was the righteous Caliph from between Ibn Zubayr, Yazeed, I don't know who else!  So I directed your attention to a hadith you quoted yourself.  In it, the Prophet (saw) clearly says that the one to whom allegiance was pledged first has superiority.  Pledged, not forced to pledge, by the way!

Quote
Wasn't Yazeed nominated by Muawiya like Umar was nominated by Abu Bakr? Muawiya followed the Sunnah of Abu Bakr in appointing his son as Caliph.

Abu Bakr (ra) did not appoint Umar (ra) haphazardly.  He consulted the major Sahaba (ra) so there was consultation before Umar (ra) was suggested as the successor.  No one opposed and after pledging allegiance to him, Umar (ra) became the second Caliph.

Quote
In Abdullah ibn Umar's view Yazid was pledged allegiance in accordance with the conditions enjoined by Allah and His Apostle (s.a.w.) and the pledge wasn't taken by force.

Narrated Nafi`:

When the people of Medina dethroned Yazid bin Muawiya, Ibn `Umar gathered his special friends and children and said, "I heard the Prophet (ﷺ) saying, 'A flag will be fixed for every betrayer on the Day of Resurrection,' and we have given the oath of allegiance to this person (Yazid) in accordance with the conditions enjoined by Allah and His Apostle and I do not know of anything more faithless than fighting a person who has been given the oath of allegiance in accordance with the conditions enjoined by Allah and His Apostle , and if ever I learn that any person among you has agreed to dethrone Yazid, by giving the oath of allegiance (to somebody else) then there will be separation between him and me."


Reference: Sahih al-Bukhari 7111
In-book reference: Book 92, Hadith 58
USC-MSA web (English) reference: Vol. 9, Book 88, Hadith 227


Abdullah ibn Umar (ra) also didn't fight against Imam Ali (ra).  He didn't fight Muawiyah either.  He was what you would call an "isolationist".  In this report, he is urging his family and friends not to withdraw the bayah.  That does not mean he was supportive of Yazeed.  This might be hard for you to stomach but people at the time when Yazeed was declared Caliph did not know that his army would kill Imam Hussain (ra).  There were many people who accepted him as their leader.  Ibn Umar (ra) was only preventing his friends and family to compound upon the mistake of pledging allegiance to Yazeed by withdrawing it.
Title: Re: Twelve Leaders of Quraysh
Post by: wannabe on August 10, 2018, 11:36:24 PM
In your opinion it is a fact. There are clear verses pointing to Imamah but its different thing when people interpret the clear verses according to their desires.
this is very interesting.
shias have their own interpretation of Quran and Sunnah. So do sunnis.
Thus, it's quite obvious to me that Quran and Sunnah are not authoritative enough to prevent disunity and dispute among muslims. even among sunnis, there's a dispute as to the meaning of the verse Quran 3:7: some believe only Allah knows its takwil while some believe those firmly rooted in knowledge also know its takwil.
When Prophet was around he was the  divine authority over  Quran and Sunnah. After his demise, Quran and Sunnah is authoritative only if there's an authority whose interpretation of Quran and Sunnah is acknowledged and accepted by all, to dispel any dispute.
hence it sounds logical to me that Allah designating an authority after the Prophet is part of perfecting our religion and completing His favor upon us.
Allahu a'lam.
Title: Re: Twelve Leaders of Quraysh
Post by: wannabe on August 10, 2018, 11:46:30 PM
Very well said!  Every verse that Shias present to support Imamah is a verse they have interpreted according to their desires.  You have recognized the symptom of the problem; if you could only fix it now.
[do excuse my ignorance] so whose interpretation is right? or both are wrong? any evidence to back it ip?  :-\
Title: Re: Twelve Leaders of Quraysh
Post by: Abu Muhammad on August 11, 2018, 12:42:09 AM
this is very interesting.
shias have their own interpretation of Quran and Sunnah. So do sunnis.
Thus, it's quite obvious to me that Quran and Sunnah are not authoritative enough to prevent disunity and dispute among muslims. even among sunnis, there's a dispute as to the meaning of the verse Quran 3:7: some believe only Allah knows its takwil while some believe those firmly rooted in knowledge also know its takwil.
When Prophet was around he was the  divine authority over  Quran and Sunnah. After his demise, Quran and Sunnah is authoritative only if there's an authority whose interpretation of Quran and Sunnah is acknowledged and accepted by all, to dispel any dispute.
hence it sounds logical to me that Allah designating an authority after the Prophet is part of perfecting our religion and completing His favor upon us.
Allahu a'lam.

Logical but, for Twelver Shi'ism, has never been back-up with historical facts for the past eleven centuries.

Logical things might work in "theory" but will never necessarily represent the "reality on the ground".
Title: Re: Twelve Leaders of Quraysh
Post by: Rationalist on August 11, 2018, 08:52:06 PM
I am not responsible for Shaykh Saduq's beliefs. He may believe whatever he wants but he is not hujjah for me.

As for Dajjal's ghaybah... it should be noted that for a ghaybah to occur a person should have been born (literally come into this world) and then afterwards go into occultation. According to Ahlul Sunnah has dajjal been born? If yes then when did his birth take place and who witnessed his birth?

If you bring the hadith of island then it should be noted Dajjal is not in Ghaybah as Sahabas did see Dajjal and had conversation with him. According to the hadith Dajjal is chained in some unknown island and would be released during End times. We Shias do not believe such thing about our twelfth Imam.

Of course you are responsible for what Shaykh Saduq believes. The reason is your proofs are supposedly guidance and I am accountalble for it on the day of judgement. Now that Shaykh Saduq didnt even agree to it why should I listen to you? What you are saying is not even a concensus among your own sect. So again why should I even accept your proof? Unless you are ready to say Shaykh Saduq entered jahilyah for not believing in the 'gaiyba' of Prophet Isa.
Title: Re: Twelve Leaders of Quraysh
Post by: Rationalist on August 11, 2018, 09:09:57 PM
Its your opinion. Provide evidence for Messengers coming after Nabi Isa (a.s)

Did you carefully read the link I gave?

The tafsir says following:


I did read it carefully. The point I am trying to make is the ummah has room for differing. The Quran does not specify that Prophet Isa (as) is the second last Prophet. Muslims can believe a few Prophets came after. They can also go with the general view.

If you want to prove the 12 imams concepts than bring proofs where the Ummah cannot differ on.
Title: Re: Twelve Leaders of Quraysh
Post by: wannabe on August 12, 2018, 01:14:57 AM
Logical but, for Twelver Shi'ism, has never been back-up with historical facts for the past eleven centuries.

Logical things might work in "theory" but will never necessarily represent the "reality on the ground".
salam bro,
for the sake of moving forward, i'll just take your words for it.
Quran [3:103] says "...be not disunited...".
During Prophet's time, believers must obey the Messenger. i think this is the single most important matter to achieve unity ie obedience.
So, what does Allah say through His Prophet's tongue "How this unity among believers can be preserved, after his demise?"
AFAIK, Quran 4:59 is the answer.
But of course this verse means different thing to different people. thus, back to the vicious loop:
Quote
When Prophet was around he was the  divine authority over  Quran and Sunnah. After his demise, Quran and Sunnah is authoritative only if there's an authority whose interpretation of Quran and Sunnah is acknowledged and accepted by all, to dispel any dispute.
i'm not trying to prove sect A is better than sect B or vice vresa. i believe, everyone think his is upon the truth; otherwise, none will follow it.
All i'm saying is that, the time is ripe to stop this dispute and ...
"... therefore strive with one another to hasten to virtuous deeds; to Allah is your return, of all (of you), so He will let you know that in which you differed;". Quran [5:48]
Title: Re: Twelve Leaders of Quraysh
Post by: muslim720 on August 12, 2018, 03:26:00 AM
[do excuse my ignorance] so whose interpretation is right? or both are wrong? any evidence to back it ip?  :-\

I will excuse your ignorance hoping you are not an ignorant like Iceman who will engage in a discussion by posing question after question.

Whose interpretation is right, you asked!  My original statement was, "Every verse that Shias present to support Imamah is a verse they have interpreted according to their desires". 

The Qur'an cannot be interpreted according to our desires so you know who is in the wrong.  If you are still confused, Ahlus Sunnah Wal Jama'ah has concrete evidence for the way they interpret the Qur'an.  Our interpretation goes back to the Prophet (saw) or the reliable Sahaba (ra) who narrated the interpretation from the Prophet (saw).

The evidence for my claim is our hadiths and their quality.  The Shi'i hadiths, and their "sciences", pale in comparison.
Title: Re: Twelve Leaders of Quraysh
Post by: iceman on August 12, 2018, 07:00:55 AM
I will excuse your ignorance hoping you are not an ignorant like Iceman who will engage in a discussion by posing question after question.

Whose interpretation is right, you asked!  My original statement was, "Every verse that Shias present to support Imamah is a verse they have interpreted according to their desires". 

The Qur'an cannot be interpreted according to our desires so you know who is in the wrong.  If you are still confused, Ahlus Sunnah Wal Jama'ah has concrete evidence for the way they interpret the Qur'an.  Our interpretation goes back to the Prophet (saw) or the reliable Sahaba (ra) who narrated the interpretation from the Prophet (saw).

The evidence for my claim is our hadiths and their quality.  The Shi'i hadiths, and their "sciences", pale in comparison.
i

"I will excuse your ignorance hoping you are not an ignorant like Iceman"

He also won't insult and humiliate anyone's mother on social media. 😊 My dear we are SHIA and Alhamdulilah our manners (Ikhlaq) and character comes from the AHLUL BAYTH. This is exactly where we take our religion from.

Which question haven't I answered and what point haven't I addressed. Talk to me.  Don't talk about me or behind me. 😊
Title: Re: Twelve Leaders of Quraysh
Post by: Mythbuster1 on August 12, 2018, 12:42:17 PM
i

"I will excuse your ignorance hoping you are not an ignorant like Iceman"

He also won't insult and humiliate anyone's mother on social media. 😊 My dear we are SHIA and Alhamdulilah our manners (Ikhlaq) and character comes from the AHLUL BAYTH. This is exactly where we take our religion from.

Which question haven't I answered and what point haven't I addressed. Talk to me.  Don't talk about me or behind me. 😊

Yea tatbir comes from ahle baith according to shiites cursing the sahaba and wives come from Shiites who follow ahle baith and a whole lot of lies to follow through with that, so I don’t think it’s ahle baith you follow but a certain individual who started the ball rolling you know his name the one and only Ibn Saba👏😁

You cannot provide a clear verse from the Quran without adding your desires to it as can be seen in your post responses to me........I BEAR WITNESS TO THAT😉👍

Alhamdulillah
Title: Re: Twelve Leaders of Quraysh
Post by: wannabe on August 12, 2018, 02:11:48 PM
Quote
When Prophet was around he was the  divine authority over  Quran and Sunnah. After his demise, Quran and Sunnah is authoritative only if there's an authority whose interpretation of Quran and Sunnah is acknowledged and accepted by all, to dispel any dispute.
this is not my own little theory. it's what i understand from  Al Kafi V 1 – The Book Of Divine Authority CH 1 H 4 (http://fourshiabooks.com/hadith/al-kafi/4/1/4).
the following is an excerpt from it.
"I was in the presence of Imam abu 'Abdallah (a.s.) that a man from Sham (Syria) came to him and said, I am a man of Kalam (meaningful words) Fiqh (laws) and rules of obligations and I have come to debate your people...
.
.
Hisham then asked, "Who is the Divine authority after the Messenger of Allah?" The man replied, "It is the book of Allah and the Sunnah."
Hisham then said, "Have the Book and Sunnah helped us today in removing our differences?"
The man said, "Yes, they have helped us."
Hisham then asked, "Why then do  we have differences among us. You have come all the way from Sham to oppose and debate us?"
The man then remained quite.
The Imam asked him, "Why do not speak?"
The man said, "If I were to say that we have no differences I would speaking lies. Were I to say that the Book and Sunnah solves our differences it would be invalid because they can be interpreted in so many ways. Were I to say that we do have differences and each claims to be the rightful party then the Book and the Sunnah would have been proved of no help. However, I can ask the same question from him also."
The Imam (a.s.) then said to man from Sham, "Why do not then ask him this question?"
thanks bro @muslim720 for ur kind explanation.
Title: Re: Twelve Leaders of Quraysh
Post by: iceman on August 13, 2018, 06:49:23 AM
Yea tatbir comes from ahle baith according to shiites cursing the sahaba and wives come from Shiites who follow ahle baith and a whole lot of lies to follow through with that, so I don’t think it’s ahle baith you follow but a certain individual who started the ball rolling you know his name the one and only Ibn Saba👏😁

You cannot provide a clear verse from the Quran without adding your desires to it as can be seen in your post responses to me........I BEAR WITNESS TO THAT😉👍

Alhamdulillahi

What, who, Ibn Saba? A fictional character created by your ancestors just to divert people's attention away from Shiaism. My dear, we have been facing propaganda from day one.
Title: Re: Twelve Leaders of Quraysh
Post by: Mythbuster1 on August 13, 2018, 09:51:47 AM
What, who, Ibn Saba? A fictional character created by your ancestors just to divert people's attention away from Shiaism. My dear, we have been facing propaganda from day one.

Lol Ibn Saba the creator of divine Imamate theory bless him don’t disown the guy you know he is your GUIDE😂😂😂

Yea you face propaganda don’t make me laugh your people are the trouble causers within the umma the enemy within you join with kafirs and then cry that you have been persecuted 😂😂😂😂😂 go tell it to the ones who follow Ibn Saba.

Crusades
Mongols
Safavids
Iraq war
And now you switch sides to help Russian criminal putin in Syria

Stop with your false propaganda and join the ummah in fighting beck even the imams got sick of your fake words and cowardice that imam Hassan ra had to give the reign to Hazarat Ameer Muawiyah radhiallahuanhum 👍
Title: Re: Twelve Leaders of Quraysh
Post by: iceman on August 13, 2018, 04:33:33 PM
Lol Ibn Saba the creator of divine Imamate theory bless him don’t disown the guy you know he is your GUIDE😂😂😂

Yea you face propaganda don’t make me laugh your people are the trouble causers within the umma the enemy within you join with kafirs and then cry that you have been persecuted 😂😂😂😂😂 go tell it to the ones who follow Ibn Saba.

Crusades
Mongols
Safavids
Iraq war
And now you switch sides to help Russian criminal putin in Syria

Stop with your false propaganda and join the ummah in fighting beck even the imams got sick of your fake words and cowardice that imam Hassan ra had to give the reign to Hazarat Ameer Muawiyah radhiallahuanhum 👍

First of all the new ex Shia mentioned that we are only about 7 to 11%, so that means such a small minority is so strong and powerful that it gave the vast majority a run for their money.

And here is the list of our achievements I would say since we are so kindly accused of them.

Shias killed or were behind the killing of Umar and Usman and probably Ali as well
Shias caused Jamal and Safeen because the ones who actually fought Ali were too simple and straightforward to realise it. They couldn't think for themselves 😊

Shias betrayed Hassan that he unfortunately had to hand over Caliphate to Muawiya, as though it was his personal property 😊 Shias betrayed Muslim Ibne Aqeel and probably killed him as well. Ubaidullah Ibne Ziyaad must have been a Shia 😀

Shias betrayed Hussain and probably killed him as well. That means Shimr, Hurmala, Kholi, Haseen etc must have been Shias 😊 Probably Yazeed was Shia too 😁 Ibne Saba and his followers were really some clever, far sighted and minded people that they got so much done by being a minority.

Shias killers of Sahaba (Caliphs) or behind their killings, got Sahaba to fight against each other, betrayed members of Ahle Bayth and even killed them or were behind the killings. Shias became murtad, Malik bin Nuwayrah was probably also a Shia 😂 Do you think I left anything behind 😄 Would you like to contribute anything 😆

I wonder what the Ummah, the vast majority of the Ummah (Sunnis) were doing.😀
Title: Re: Twelve Leaders of Quraysh
Post by: Mythbuster1 on August 14, 2018, 07:26:24 AM
First of all the new ex Shia mentioned that we are only about 7 to 11%, so that means such a small minority is so strong and powerful that it gave the vast majority a run for their money.

And here is the list of our achievements I would say since we are so kindly accused of them.

Shias killed or were behind the killing of Umar and Usman and probably Ali as well
Shias caused Jamal and Safeen because the ones who actually fought Ali were too simple and straightforward to realise it. They couldn't think for themselves 😊

Shias betrayed Hassan that he unfortunately had to hand over Caliphate to Muawiya, as though it was his personal property 😊 Shias betrayed Muslim Ibne Aqeel and probably killed him as well. Ubaidullah Ibne Ziyaad must have been a Shia 😀

Shias betrayed Hussain and probably killed him as well. That means Shimr, Hurmala, Kholi, Haseen etc must have been Shias 😊 Probably Yazeed was Shia too 😁 Ibne Saba and his followers were really some clever, far sighted and minded people that they got so much done by being a minority.

Shias killers of Sahaba (Caliphs) or behind their killings, got Sahaba to fight against each other, betrayed members of Ahle Bayth and even killed them or were behind the killings. Shias became murtad, Malik bin Nuwayrah was probably also a Shia 😂 Do you think I left anything behind 😄 Would you like to contribute anything 😆

I wonder what the Ummah, the vast majority of the Ummah (Sunnis) were doing.😀

The vast majority never gave sides or were scared (Sunnis) we were busy sending dawah to the world we ruled over the Romans the byzantines and your ancestors the Persians😊

It was the Shiites at home like women, they were fighting the Muslims within while the Sunnis were out fighting like lions to spread the deen😉

What have shiites achieved for islam? What dawah can they do if ones like you cannot prove their main usool Imamate? You are a sly minority and will stay the same thanks to Allah Almighty alhamdulillah👍

You were the killers of the imam yes as well as cowards who left the imams and wouldn’t fight it’s KNOWN history mate, Shiites are well known cowards it’s engraved in history😊
Title: Re: Twelve Leaders of Quraysh
Post by: Ijtaba on August 17, 2018, 02:55:27 PM
Of course you are responsible for what Shaykh Saduq believes. The reason is your proofs are supposedly guidance and I am accountalble for it on the day of judgement. Now that Shaykh Saduq didnt even agree to it why should I listen to you? What you are saying is not even a concensus among your own sect. So again why should I even accept your proof? Unless you are ready to say Shaykh Saduq entered jahilyah for not believing in the 'gaiyba' of Prophet Isa.

Poor reasoning... Shaykh Saduq is not hujjah on me. For me only Infallibles (Prophets & Imams) are Hujjah.

Show me where Nabi Mohammed (s.a.w.w) & Aimmah (a.s) mentioned about Nabi coming after Nabi Isa (a.s) from my books as well as the authenticity of those reports.
Title: Re: Twelve Leaders of Quraysh
Post by: Ijtaba on August 17, 2018, 03:04:33 PM
I did read it carefully. The point I am trying to make is the ummah has room for differing. The Quran does not specify that Prophet Isa (as) is the second last Prophet. Muslims can believe a few Prophets came after. They can also go with the general view.

Give me evidence and not just your opinions.

Again, ibn Kathir in his tafsir refuted your baseless argument.

Link: http://www.qtafsir.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=796&Itemid=60#1

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...In the Sahih collected by Al-Bukhari, Abu Hurayrah said that the Messenger of Allah said,

(I, among all people, have the most right to the son of Maryam, for there was no Prophet between Him and I.) This Hadith refutes the opinion of Al-Quda`i and others, that there was a Prophet after `Isa called Khalid bin Sinan. Allah sent Muhammad after a period of time during which there was no Prophet, clear path, or unchanged religions. Idol worshipping, fire worshipping and cross worshipping flourished during this time. Therefore, the bounty of sending Muhammad was the perfect bounty at a time when he was needed the most. Evil had filled the earth by then, and tyranny and ignorance had touched all the servants, except a few of those who remained loyal to the true teachings of previous Prophets, such as some Jewish rabbis, Christian priests and Sabian monks.

Bring valid strong authentic evidence of Prophet(s) coming after Nabi Isa (a.s) and not your opinions and assumptions.
Title: Re: Twelve Leaders of Quraysh
Post by: Ijtaba on August 17, 2018, 04:06:04 PM
I do not believe in Imamah (the way Shias believe in it) so your question is invalid (whether I believe Imamah ended with Prophethood or continued after it).  This is a strawman!

What I believe is that Ibrahim (asws) was made an Imam over mankind as our role model which is why we are asked in the Qur'an to follow his religion.  Our Hajj rituals, for example, are replete of deeds that commemorate Ibrahim (asws) or replicate what he did.

So according to you what did it mean when Nabi Ibrahim (a.s) asked ALLAH (SWT) to make Imams from his descendants?

My question to you is this: if Imamah was to stay with the 12 "infallible" Shi'i Imams (ra), why are we asked in the Qur'an to supplicate to Allah (swt) to make Imams from among us?  If Allah (swt) appoints Imams, as per the Shi'i narrative, why are we then reciting this du'a?

"And those who pray, 'Our Lord! Grant unto us wives and offspring who will be the comfort of our eyes, and give us (the grace) to lead the righteous.' " (Surah Al-Furqan verse 74)

Transliteration: Wa Al-Ladhīna Yaqūlūna Rabbanā Hab Lanā Min 'Azwājinā Wa Dhurrīyātinā Qurrata 'A`yunin Wa Aj`alnā Lilmuttaqīna 'Imāmāan

Imam means Leader or one who is to be obeyed.

What I understand from this du'a is that we pray to ALLAH (SWT) to make us Righteous... and to become Righteous we pray to ALLAH (SWT) to give us a Leader who would lead us towards righteousness.

You asked who was the righteous Caliph from between Ibn Zubayr, Yazeed, I don't know who else!  So I directed your attention to a hadith you quoted yourself.  In it, the Prophet (saw) clearly says that the one to whom allegiance was pledged first has superiority.  Pledged, not forced to pledge, by the way!

I did not ask about righteous Caliph but rightful/legitimate caliph.

If a caliph is pledged allegiance forcefully, is he still a legitimate caliph?

Abu Bakr (ra) did not appoint Umar (ra) haphazardly.  He consulted the major Sahaba (ra) so there was consultation before Umar (ra) was suggested as the successor.  No one opposed and after pledging allegiance to him, Umar (ra) became the second Caliph.

Even if I accept your view... Umar was still nominated and not elected by Shura because Abu Bakr consulted and then nominated.

According to Ahlul Sunnah, Prophet (s.a.w.w) preferred, liked and even expressed his desire of Abu Bakr to become his (s.a.w.w) Caliph but yet he (s.a.w.w) did not nominate Abu Bakr and left the matter for his (s.a.w.w) Ummah to decide about the caliphate. So why did Abu Bakr not follow the Sunnah of Prophet (s.a.w.w) and left the matters in the hands of Ummah to decide about the caliphate?

Abdullah ibn Umar (ra) also didn't fight against Imam Ali (ra).  He didn't fight Muawiyah either.  He was what you would call an "isolationist".  In this report, he is urging his family and friends not to withdraw the bayah.  That does not mean he was supportive of Yazeed.  This might be hard for you to stomach but people at the time when Yazeed was declared Caliph did not know that his army would kill Imam Hussain (ra).  There were many people who accepted him as their leader.  Ibn Umar (ra) was only preventing his friends and family to compound upon the mistake of pledging allegiance to Yazeed by withdrawing it.

According to Abdullah ibn Umar... Yazid was legitimate Caliph as he was pledged allegiance according to Sunnah. Choosing a person as a ruler through legal and rightful process and a legitimate ruler going against the laws (& rules) of his country during his rulership are two different things. I am not talking about Yazid's rule but I am talking about him being nominated as Caliph by his father.

My question is... if Yazid was nominated by Muawiyah and pledged allegiance by people according to Sunnah then why did Imam Hussain (a.s) and Abdullah ibn Zubayr refuse to pledge allegiance to Yazid? Did Imam Hussain (a.s) and Abdullah ibn Zubayr wanted to create division in the Ummah by not pledging allegiance to legitimate Caliph? I remember Abu Bakr's words when he was pledged allegiance by the people but Imam Hussain (a.s) father and Abdullah ibn Zubayr's father had yet not pledged allegiance to Abu Bakr so Abu Bakr said to Imam Ali (a.s) and Zubayr that did they want to create division by not pledging allegiance to him. So in response both Imam Ali (a.s) and Zubayr pledged allegiance to Abu Bakr. So why did their sons (Imam Hussain ibn Ali and Abdullah ibn Zubayr) not pledge allegiance to the Caliph (Yazid) who was pledged allegiance according to Sunnah?
Title: Re: Twelve Leaders of Quraysh
Post by: muslim720 on August 17, 2018, 04:39:02 PM
So according to you what did it mean when Nabi Ibrahim (a.s) asked ALLAH (SWT) to make Imams from his descendants?

It has the least to do with our discussion.  The point is that the verse, in no shape or form, substantiates Imamah (in the Shi'i sense).  Not just Ibrahim (asws), even we make du'a to be made Imams.  Similarly, Ibrahim (asws) asked for the same for his offspring.  What is interesting is that while you claim that these descendants who received Imamah were your 12 Imams (ra) - perhaps exclusively or among many others - the Qur'an does not even name them.  And they are supposed to be higher than all Prophets (asws) save one!

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Imam means Leader or one who is to be obeyed.

What I understand from this du'a is that we pray to ALLAH (SWT) to make us Righteous... and to become Righteous we pray to ALLAH (SWT) to give us a Leader who would lead us towards righteousness.

So why do you choose to apply a different definition to Ibrahim (asws) and what is mentioned in Surah Al-Baqarah?  By your definition, if you are consistent, Allah (swt) declared Ibrahim's (asws) righteousness to all of mankind and made him a leader.  In fact, the Qur'an supports this opinion because it commands us to follow the religion of Ibrahim (asws).

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If a caliph is pledged allegiance forcefully, is he still a legitimate caliph?

You have some serious reading issues.  Read my statement again: "Pledged, not forced to pledge, by the way!"

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Even if I accept your view... Umar was still nominated and not elected by Shura because Abu Bakr consulted and then nominated.

According to Ahlul Sunnah, Prophet (s.a.w.w) preferred, liked and even expressed his desire of Abu Bakr to become his (s.a.w.w) Caliph but yet he (s.a.w.w) did not nominate Abu Bakr and left the matter for his (s.a.w.w) Ummah to decide about the caliphate. So why did Abu Bakr not follow the Sunnah of Prophet (s.a.w.w) and left the matters in the hands of Ummah to decide about the caliphate?

The common denominator, which always evades Shias, is that consultation took place in both cases and Imam Ali (ra) collaborated with both Abu Bakr (ra) and Umar (ra).  If you know better than Imam Ali (ra), you have a case.  Otherwise, you've nothing!

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According to Abdullah ibn Umar... Yazid was legitimate Caliph as he was pledged allegiance according to Sunnah.

Not true but even if we assume that you are upon something, Abdullah ibn Umar (ra) was one individual.  He is not infallible.

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My question is... if Yazid was nominated by Muawiyah and pledged allegiance by people according to Sunnah then why did Imam Hussain (a.s) and Abdullah ibn Zubayr refuse to pledge allegiance to Yazid? Did Imam Hussain (a.s) and Abdullah ibn Zubayr wanted to create division in the Ummah by not pledging allegiance to legitimate Caliph? I remember Abu Bakr's words when he was pledged allegiance by the people but Imam Hussain (a.s) father and Abdullah ibn Zubayr's father had yet not pledged allegiance to Abu Bakr so Abu Bakr said to Imam Ali (a.s) and Zubayr that did they want to create division by not pledging allegiance to him. So in response both Imam Ali (a.s) and Zubayr pledged allegiance to Abu Bakr. So why did their sons (Imam Hussain ibn Ali and Abdullah ibn Zubayr) not pledge allegiance to the Caliph (Yazid) who was pledged allegiance according to Sunnah?

Do your research on it!  I don't have all the answers, to be honest.  Even if I did, which I don't, this is a nice Shi'i tactic.  Imagine I answered all your questions.  Would you reflect on them?  No!  You'd come back with another 3 or more questions for every answer I provide.
Title: Re: Twelve Leaders of Quraysh
Post by: Rationalist on August 17, 2018, 08:06:26 PM
Give me evidence and not just your opinions.

Again, ibn Kathir in his tafsir refuted your baseless argument.

Link: http://www.qtafsir.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=796&Itemid=60#1

Bring valid strong authentic evidence of Prophet(s) coming after Nabi Isa (a.s) and not your opinions and assumptions.

Already replied to this 2 times. Abu Huraira is not binding on me. So again the refutation is not a refutation against the ummah. In fact its ironic how you are using Abu Huraira. He is rejected by shia sects and Mutazilla.

Let me repeat myself. If you want to prove me wrong than the proof should be based on what the ummah believes.

For example majority of the 12er Shia believes Fatima is the only daughter. I can bring against proof that its not the case. Does this mean those 12er Shia who say there is 4 daugthers are dying in jahililyah?

 
Title: Re: Twelve Leaders of Quraysh
Post by: Ijtaba on August 20, 2018, 03:23:40 PM
Already replied to this 2 times. Abu Huraira is not binding on me. So again the refutation is not a refutation against the ummah. In fact its ironic how you are using Abu Huraira. He is rejected by shia sects and Mutazilla.

To refute you I have to bring evidences from your books and not mine because its obvious you would reject evidences brought by my books.

Are you rejecting the hadiths because of Abu Hurayrah or due to hadiths being unauthentic?

Let me repeat myself. If you want to prove me wrong than the proof should be based on what the ummah believes.

So according to you, what does Ummah believe in? Because I brought evidences from authentic books of Ahlul Sunnah and Tafsir of ibn Kathir.

For example majority of the 12er Shia believes Fatima is the only daughter. I can bring against proof that its not the case. Does this mean those 12er Shia who say there is 4 daugthers are dying in jahililyah?

This is not related to topic we are discussing. Create another thread to discuss this issue.
Title: Re: Twelve Leaders of Quraysh
Post by: Ijtaba on August 20, 2018, 04:04:33 PM
It has the least to do with our discussion.  The point is that the verse, in no shape or form, substantiates Imamah (in the Shi'i sense).  Not just Ibrahim (asws), even we make du'a to be made Imams.  Similarly, Ibrahim (asws) asked for the same for his offspring.  What is interesting is that while you claim that these descendants who received Imamah were your 12 Imams (ra) - perhaps exclusively or among many others - the Qur'an does not even name them.  And they are supposed to be higher than all Prophets (asws) save one!

- Nabi Ibrahim (a.s) made du'a to make Imams (a.s) from his (a.s) offspring and ALLAH (SWT) accepted his (a.s) du'a and made Imams (a.s) from his offspring.

- More than billion Muslims have been praying more than 1,400 years the du'a to make them Imams of Muttaqeen... Can you tell me have ALLAH (SWT) accepted their du'a of making them Imams of Muttaqeen? If yes then name those Imams of Muttaqeen.

So why do you choose to apply a different definition to Ibrahim (asws) and what is mentioned in Surah Al-Baqarah?  By your definition, if you are consistent, Allah (swt) declared Ibrahim's (asws) righteousness to all of mankind and made him a leader.  In fact, the Qur'an supports this opinion because it commands us to follow the religion of Ibrahim (asws).

ALLAH (SWT) declared Nabi Ibrahim (a.s) righteousness to all mankind when HE (SWT) sent him (a.s) as a Prophet... and Prophet is a leader of his Ummah. So why was a Prophet who is already a leader in his Ummah made an Imam?  ???

You have some serious reading issues.  Read my statement again: "Pledged, not forced to pledge, by the way!"

In near future I will create another thread which would be about concept of caliphate in Ahlul Sunnah in detail.

The common denominator, which always evades Shias, is that consultation took place in both cases and Imam Ali (ra) collaborated with both Abu Bakr (ra) and Umar (ra).  If you know better than Imam Ali (ra), you have a case.  Otherwise, you've nothing!

What would you say about the hadith in which Umar says not to repeat the way in which Abu Bakr was elected as Caliph as Umar said that it was merely an unexpected incident and GOD saved from its evil? Why was consultation during Abu Bakr's election an unexpected incident which was not to be repeated again?

Not true but even if we assume that you are upon something, Abdullah ibn Umar (ra) was one individual.  He is not infallible.

What do you mean by, "Not true?" Are there evidences that Yazid wasn't pledged allegiance according to Shariah? If yes then I would like to see your evidences.

Abdullah ibn Umar is one individual and not infallible - Agreed.

But would Abdullah ibn Umar lie on ALLAH (SWT) and HIS (SWT) Prophet (s.a.w.w)? I doubt. I say this because Sahabas according to Ahlul Sunnah would never say regarding a person who had not been pledged allegiance rightfully that he had been pledged allegiance according to Shariah.
Title: Re: Twelve Leaders of Quraysh
Post by: Rationalist on August 20, 2018, 05:09:42 PM
To refute you I have to bring evidences from your books and not mine because its obvious you would reject evidences brought by my books.

I presented a hadith from your books on Khalid bin Sinan and you ended up asking me about its authencity? If you don't even know what is authentic in your books then what the point of opening Sunni books? Please learn about the different views on all schools of thought.

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Are you rejecting the hadiths because of Abu Hurayrah or due to hadiths being unauthentic?
Its because its Abu Huraria.

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So according to you, what does Ummah believe in? Because I brought evidences from authentic books of Ahlul Sunnah and Tafsir of ibn Kathir.
It just one school of thought. His views are not binding of other school such as the Hanafis.
As for the ummah its Quran and we have to agree on the Mukhamath verses. The mutashibath is open for different views. Also Mutawatir hadith are binding on the ummah.
 
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This is not related to topic we are discussing. Create another thread to discuss this issue.

Not interested. I was just giving an example of different views in your sect. You should take some lessons from iceman who is more knowledable than you on the different views in the 12er Shia sect and how they are all legit within the school.
Title: Re: Twelve Leaders of Quraysh
Post by: muslim720 on August 21, 2018, 01:56:00 PM
- Nabi Ibrahim (a.s) made du'a to make Imams (a.s) from his (a.s) offspring and ALLAH (SWT) accepted his (a.s) du'a and made Imams (a.s) from his offspring.

Who were these Imams?

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- More than billion Muslims have been praying more than 1,400 years the du'a to make them Imams of Muttaqeen... Can you tell me have ALLAH (SWT) accepted their du'a of making them Imams of Muttaqeen? If yes then name those Imams of Muttaqeen.

Are you saying that Allah (swt) taught us a du'a which He won't accept?  These Imams could be anyone.  Islamic history is replete with awliya and those who were pious.  The issue arises when a certain portion of the Islamic ummah gives a specific definition to the term Imam....individuals like yourself!  Since you believe Imamah is determined by Allah (swt) and no other Imam exists other than your 12th Imam - possibly being the last one in the line of Imams - why then did Allah (swt) teach us such a du'a?

This du'a is invalid in Shiaism thereby making this verse invalid and inapplicable.  Just one example of a core Shi'i belief (Imamah) contradicting the Qur'an.

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ALLAH (SWT) declared Nabi Ibrahim (a.s) righteousness to all mankind when HE (SWT) sent him (a.s) as a Prophet... and Prophet is a leader of his Ummah. So why was a Prophet who is already a leader in his Ummah made an Imam?  ???

Remember what I said about responding and getting more questions in response?  Ibrahim (asws) was a leader in his ummah and Allah (swt) declared him a leader to all mankind. 

Allah (swt) tells the Holy Prophet (saw) the following: "So We have taught thee the inspired (Message), 'Follow the ways of Abraham the True in Faith, and he joined not gods with God.' "

Is there any other prophet whom Muslims, even the Holy Prophet (saw), had to follow?  That should answer your question.  Unless you prefer to question by feigning ignorance.

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In near future I will create another thread which would be about concept of caliphate in Ahlul Sunnah in detail.

To aid you in the process, please bear in mind that Caliphate (according to us) is not mandated in the Qur'an or Sunnah.  However, shura was with Muhajir and Ansar, as attested to by Imam Ali (ra) in Nahjul Balagha.  And the leadership of the first four Caliphs (ra) were in accordance to it.

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What would you say about the hadith in which Umar says not to repeat the way in which Abu Bakr was elected as Caliph as Umar said that it was merely an unexpected incident and GOD saved from its evil? Why was consultation during Abu Bakr's election an unexpected incident which was not to be repeated again?

Have you read the entire narration?  Eesa, the black intellectual Shia, used that hadith at Speakers Corner against brother Farid and got owned.  To summarize the lengthy narration, Umar (ra) found out that people would pledge allegiance haphazardly to anyone they wanted (after him) while citing the quick election of Abu Bakr (ra).  In other words, the ummah would have differed on as many people as there were Muslims (each one giving bayyah to whoever they pleased).

Umar (ra), as the leader of the Muslims, reprimanded them and informed them that while Abu Bakr (ra) was elected in a haste, it was done with the consent of everyone present.  So he was addressing the misconception of those who thought that they could pledge allegiance to anyone without mutual consultation.

And as I said above, no matter which way you explain it, at the end of the day Imam Ali (ra) accepted the Caliphates of Abu Bakr (ra), Umar (ra) and Uthman (ra)!

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What do you mean by, "Not true?" Are there evidences that Yazid wasn't pledged allegiance according to Shariah? If yes then I would like to see your evidences.

"Not true" as in what you ascribed to Abdullah ibn Umar (ra) is not true.

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But would Abdullah ibn Umar lie on ALLAH (SWT) and HIS (SWT) Prophet (s.a.w.w)?

Abdullah ibn Umar (ra) was acknowledging the fact that people gave bayyah to Yazeed in accordance to "the conditions enjoined by Allah and His Apostle".  That does not make his caliphate legitimate or ibn Umar (ra) a supporter of Yazeed.  You could have a transaction between two groups or parties, one honest and the other dishonest.  The one honestly conducting his or her affairs is not endorsing the dishonesty of the other.  It could just be that the honest one is ignorant of the latter's dishonesty.
Title: Re: Twelve Leaders of Quraysh
Post by: iceman on August 22, 2018, 06:32:59 AM
وَ إِذِ ابْتَلى إِبْراهِيمَ رَبُّهُ بِكَلِماتٍ فَأَتَمَّهُنَّ قالَ إِنِّي جاعِلُكَ لِلنَّاسِ إِماماً قالَ وَ مِنْ ذُرِّيَّتِي قالَ لا يَنالُ عَهْدِي الظَّالِمِينَ

“And when his Lord tried Ibrahim with commands, he fulfilled them. He said: Surely I will make you an Imam for mankind. (Ibrahim) said: And of my offspring (will there be leaders)? He said, my covenant does not include the unjust”. (2:124)

It is clear that Abraham was made an Imam BY HIS LORD, not by the people but BY HIS LORD. This is what we need to take into account that Imamah does exist and only Allah makes Imams.

Another thing we need to bring into account is that Imamah doesn't end here but it continues. What did Abraham say after he was made an Imam?

"Ibrahim) said: And of my offspring (will there be leaders?"

And what did Allah say in return?

"He said, my covenant does not include the unjust”.

This proves that Imamah continued.
Title: Re: Twelve Leaders of Quraysh
Post by: muslim720 on August 22, 2018, 05:42:03 PM
وَ إِذِ ابْتَلى إِبْراهِيمَ رَبُّهُ بِكَلِماتٍ فَأَتَمَّهُنَّ قالَ إِنِّي جاعِلُكَ لِلنَّاسِ إِماماً قالَ وَ مِنْ ذُرِّيَّتِي قالَ لا يَنالُ عَهْدِي الظَّالِمِينَ

“And when his Lord tried Ibrahim with commands, he fulfilled them. He said: Surely I will make you an Imam for mankind. (Ibrahim) said: And of my offspring (will there be leaders)? He said, my covenant does not include the unjust”. (2:124)

It is clear that Abraham was made an Imam BY HIS LORD, not by the people but BY HIS LORD. This is what we need to take into account that Imamah does exist and only Allah makes Imams.

Another thing we need to bring into account is that Imamah doesn't end here but it continues. What did Abraham say after he was made an Imam?

"Ibrahim) said: And of my offspring (will there be leaders?"

And what did Allah say in return?

"He said, my covenant does not include the unjust”.

This proves that Imamah continued.

If we accept the Shi'i narrative then:

1.  The prerequisite for becoming an Imam is Prophethood.  After all, Ibrahim (asws) was "promoted" to being an Imam after he was a Prophet and he overcame all the trials and tribulations.  None of your Imams (ra) were Prophets so it does not apply to your Imams (ra).

2.  Imam Ali (ra) considered the shura of Muhajireen and Ansar to be valid.  He even referred to the ones before him as "Imams".  All in Nahjul Balagha!

3.  The names of the Imams (ra) should have been clearly mentioned in the Qur'an (if Imamah continued) just as Ibrahim (asws), and his appointment as Imam, was mentioned.

4.  Ibrahim (asws), just like the Holy Prophet (saw), being an Imam and a Prophet, is higher than all your Imams (ra).