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Ulil-Amr and the context of the divine authority of the family of Ibrahim.

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Link

The family of Ibrahim has been given great importance in the Quran and the Sunnah. The Quran shows Ibrahim and Sarah were given news of Isaac and Yaqoub and were told that this the affair of God so they should not wonder, as God's blessings is upon them the people of the household. We see a whole story of Yusuf in Quran, a person of the family of Ibrahim. The Quran emphasizes that Prophethood was put in the offspring of Ibrahim and Nuh. When Ibrahim was given the station of Imam, he asked regarding his offspring. And we see Quran emphasizes Isaac and Yaqoub along with Ibrahim were Imams who guided by God's command. We see emphasis on the sons of Yaqoub saying your forefathers, Isaac, Ismael, and Ibrahim.

If Allah or Rasool said "Verily we made Ibrahim, Ismael, Isaac, Yaqoub and Yusuf Imams who guided by our command, o you who believe, obey the Imams from you", would any reasonable person assume that Imams here can mean worldly rulers or scholars or any pious leaders?

The context obviously would show that the type of leadership being discussed is of the divine type.

If Allah stated:

Some people who are given a portion of the divine revelations believe in the inordinate authorities that are false authorities and believe in the sorcery cast by the devils on the heart and say these people who are instances of false authority and who are really an illusion from sorcery in the hearts are more guided then believers. Do they have a share of the authority, and were it that case, they would not give the people anything. Is rather due to envy of people who Allah graced, and this is while Allah has appointed Imams like Ibrahim, Ismael, Isaac, Yaqoub, and Yusuf who they accept and bestowed grace upon them and gave them a great leadership. So some people believed in their guidance and leadership and some people turned away from their guidance and leadership, and hell is sufficient as a punishment to those who turned away. God will punish those who disbelieve in instances of his guidance with a burning fire and will reward those who believe and do good with paradise and enter them a densely shade. God wants you to give trusts to their owners and to judge justly between people if you judge between people. O you who believe, obey your Lord, and obey the Prophet and your Imams to the extent that you refer all disputes back to God and the Prophet if you truly believe in God and the last day.

Would any reasonable person assume that Imams are normal people and not divinely appointed guides?

Now this is what we find in the Quran:


 
"Have you seen a party of those who are given a portion of the book, they believe in the Jibt (sorcery) and Taghut (inordinate false authority) and say these are more guided then those who believe. Or do they have a share in the authority then they would not give the people at date stone. Or do they envy the people for what God has given them out his grace, so then indeed we gave the family of Ibrahim the book, the wisdom, and gave them a great authority. So of them is who believed in it and of them of is who turned away from it, and sufficient is hell as a burning. Indeed those who disbelieve in God's Ayat (Signs/revelations/instances of his guidance) soon we will enter them the fire, so as often their skins are thoroughly burned, we will change them for other skins, that they taste the chastisement, surely God is Mighty, Wise.  As for those who believe and do good deeds, we will make them enter gardens beneath which rivers flow, to abide in them for ever, they shall have therein pure mater, and we shall make them enter a dense shade. Verily Allah commands you to make over the trusts to to their owners and that when you judge between people you judge with justice, surely Allah admonishes you with what is excellent surely Allah is seeing, Hearing. O You who believe, obey God and obey the Messenger and those who possess the Command/Authority from you, therefore if you dispute with regards to a thing, refer it to God and the Messenger if you believe in God and the last day, that is better and most suitable at the end."


It calling it a "great authority" obviously refers to the greater Wilayah that Ibrahim, Ismael, Isaac, Yaqoub, and  Yusuf were given, and is not referring to worldly authority. This is also then shown by the emphasis that some people believed in it (ie. the authority of Auli-Ibrahim) and some people turned away from it. Then it's tied with God's Ayat emphasis those who disbelieve in God's Ayat will be in hell while those who believe will be in paradise. Then reminder of one of the dimension of such Wilayah was so people can judge between people by justice as they were a means to establish justice and appoint just judges and entrust the trusts to people worthy of it. We are then told to obey God and obey the Messenger and Ulil-Amr to the extent we refer back all disputes to God and the Messenger.

Now so far, the context is clear. The Amr being discussed is obviously the Divine authority that Auli-Ibrahim had. And it's obvious Rasool and Ulil-Amr were those envied and compared to the family of Ibrahim.

The referring to God and the Messenger shows all judges to be referred to have to be linked to God and his Messenger. This shows judges have a partial representation of God and his Messenger, and just like Rabanayoon use to judge a long side the Prophets in bani-Israel, such pious knowledgeable people of Quran and Sunnah are required to be referred to.

This shows one of the dimensions of Wilayah of Ahlulbayt was so they establish a divine rule where pious scholars who are linked to God and the Messenger are to judge between people and are given a portion of authority but not in absolute obedience.

However, the obedience in 4:59 is obviously in context of the same type obedience owed to Auli-Ibrahim and the same type of Authority which includes spiritual authority. This shows Ulil-Amr are Imams appointed by God and who obedience is linked to God and his Messenger.

Just like in the example given it doesn't make sense to assume Imams are normal people, the same is true of the authority here, it makes sense it's of the same divine authority of Auli-Ibrahim as that is the context of the verse.

Peace be upon who follows the guidance and we seek refuge from disbelieving in God's Ayat and turning away from his Wilayah given to his exalted chosen ones.

« Last Edit: June 14, 2015, 02:50:01 AM by Link »
Love of the family of Yaseen is the light of the heavens and the earth.

Rationalist

The family of Ibrahim has been given great importance in the Quran and the Sunnah. The Quran shows Ibrahim and Sarah were given news of Isaac and Yaqoub and were told that this the affair of God so they should not wonder, as God's blessings is upon them the people of the household.
Again these are Prophets.
Quote
We see a whole story of Yusuf in Quran, a person of the family of Ibrahim. The Quran emphasizes that Prophethood was put in the offspring of Ibrahim and Nuh. When Ibrahim was given the station of Imam, he asked regarding his offspring. And we see Quran emphasizes Isaac and Yaqoub along with Ibrahim were Imams who guided by God's command. We see emphasis on the sons of Yaqoub saying your forefathers, Isaac, Ismael, and Ibrahim.
Prophet Yusuf is a Prophet. The examples you have given are Prophets.

Quote
If Allah or Rasool said "Verily we made Ibrahim, Ismael, Isaac, Yaqoub and Yusuf Imams who guided by our command, o you who believe, obey the Imams from you", would any reasonable person assume that Imams here can mean worldly rulers or scholars or any pious leaders?
If it does why did Imam Jafar do taqiyyah when it came to the Caliphate ?

Quote
Would any reasonable person assume that Imams are normal people and not divinely appointed guides?
If they are not claiming Caliphate then we don't assume they are calipahs.

Quote
However, the obedience in 4:59 is obviously in context of the same type obedience owed to Auli-Ibrahim and the same type of Authority which includes spiritual authority. This shows Ulil-Amr are Imams appointed by God and who obedience is linked to God and his Messenger.
If you read the entire verse, the Quran says its possible for the Ulil Amr to be fallible, and then it adds that if they go against the Quran and Sunnah return to the Quran and the Sunnah.

Quote
Just like in the example given it doesn't make sense to assume Imams are normal people, the same is true of the authority here, it makes sense it's of the same divine authority of Auli-Ibrahim as that is the context of the verse.


The problems is these 'divinely appointed' Imams did taqiyyah when it came to claiming authority. The first three imams took bayah through a democratic process. They never told the people you must reject the first 3 and accept 12 successors. Then the Imams after that never claimed Calipahate. Even with Imam Zayd, the 12ers say he never called himself an imam, but those who gave him bayah never took bayah on the basis that the Imam is  Imam Jafar bin Muhammad. Next, Al Ahwal is glorified in the 12er Shia madhab for betraying Imam Zayd bin Ali.

Then we have this Mahdi concept where  narrations attributed to him are mostly unrealistic.

Link

Yes they are Prophets but it's emphasizing on their leadership and authority, which gives context of Ulil-Amr authority being one and the same with that of those Prophets.

As shown above, referring to judges means the judges have to judge by justice and be linked to God and his Messenger or otherwise we would be referring to other then God and his Messenger, and if it's an authority against God and his Messenger and judges against what is revealed from God and his Messenger, then we would be going to the judgement of the Taghut.

The logic then shows "fa" which means so/therefore means it's part of obedience to Ulil-Amr to get things referred to Allah and his Messenger, which show they always command to what Allah and his Messenger command, and always judge according to what God and his Messenger judge and are always commanding to refer to judges with a link back to God and his Messenger showing their command is of the the divine rule of justice and revelation.

The ikhtalaf is obviously not with the Ulil-Amr but as the next verse shows, about going to the Messenger and revelation, to get our disputes judged.

The context obviously showed that it's the same authority of that of the Prophets, and even further then that, but the Imammate that Ibrahim gained after Prophethood is included in the great authority of the family of Ibrahim, which shows the Ulil-Amr are such divine Guides with that authority to be obeyed in the unseen journey to God.

You didn't respond to any of the points. Saying the dispute is referring to Ulil-Amr is a weak interpretation that has no support.

Saying the Imams were Prophets doesn't negate the Leadership and Immamate being one and the same type, divinely appointed type, but in fact emphasizes beyond doubt it's of the divine authority.

Talking about your viewpoint of history of the seerah of the Imams is irrelevant and a red herring. Sorry but try harder.
« Last Edit: June 14, 2015, 10:35:43 AM by Link »
Love of the family of Yaseen is the light of the heavens and the earth.

Hani

Always reference verses when you quote them, we don't read the verses in English we read them in Arabic so we can't bother searching for what verse this is.

You start off with an introduction about the family of prophet-hood, the family of Ibrahim (as), although I wonder what `Ali has to do with this. Ibrahim (as) obviously had no political leadership whatsoever nor did he rule a kingdom, although authority and kingship were given to some of his descendants, so Ibrahim's (as) Imamah was not of a political nature which directly opposes Shiite beliefs since Shia believe that Imamah is composed of two elements, a religious leadership and political authority. Then we look at Ibrahim's (as) progeny and we see that some were awarded prophet-hood, and out of those awarded prophet-hood some were given political authority and some weren't.

`Isa (as) for instance was never a political leader nor did he rule, but he was a religious leader for his followers. Does this mean he didn't receive Allah's covenant because he's an oppressor? According to the Shiite interpretation this could be implied, whereas if one understands Allah's covenant as the prophet-hood then `Isa (as) did in fact receive it. This goes back to whether prophet-hood is a higher or lower rank than leadership, the Shiites say leadership is higher than prophet-hood, the Muslim nation agrees on the opposite. This is simply because any dumb idiot can be a leader as you can see in our days, but prophet-hood is a special station where a man is linked to God by revelation; Shiites say that leaders(Imams) do not receive revelation, yet at the same time they keep claiming its a higher station, which is all-in-all stupid.

As for your custom made religion and lack of understanding of basic Arabic, you seem to be jumping from verse to verse and making-up rules and laws.

If I were to do the same, I can take this verse that talks about prophets:

{And appointed them to be leaders(Imams) guiding by Our command, and We revealed to them the doing of good deeds, and to perform the prayer, and to pay the alms, and Us they served.} [21:73]

{We have revealed to thee as We revealed to Noah, and the Prophets after him, and We revealed to Abraham, Ishmael, Isaac, Jacob, and the Tribes, Jesus and Job, Jonah and Aaron and Solomon, and We gave to David Psalms} [4:163]

And then I can say that leaders must receive revelation according to this verse, therefore since `Ali doesn't receive revelation by consensus of Shia, then he's not a leader(Imam). When Ibrahim (as) was "promoted" to the position of "leadership" according to your sect, he had been already a prophet, just as his sons were prophets, but `Ali was not a prophet so how can you claim that he's a leader? Ibrahim (as) was also appointed to this position whereas `Ali according to you was a leader the moment he was born, nay 14,000 years before Adam (as) according to your narrations.

And whoops, what is this?

{And We appointed them leaders(Imams), calling to the Fire; and on the Day of Resurrection they shall not be helped} [28:41]

{Have you not considered the one who argued with Abraham about his Lord [merely] because Allah had given him kingship? When Abraham said, "My Lord is the one who gives life and causes death," he said, "I give life and cause death."}[2:258]

This must mean that Pharaoh is a divinely appointed Imam then must it not?

What this technically means is that everybody is appointed by God in pre-destination, just as I was appointed to write this forum post. When the Arabic word "appointed" is used this doesn't mean that it is in the form of an announcement or a divine text, it simply means that it was in this man's destiny to acquire a kingdom, and God takes away a man's kingdom not through text or announcement, he simply takes it away by ending his life, or allowing his enemies to destroy his kingdom, or allowing his rivals to overthrow and replace him etc...

In this sense and in this correct enlightened understanding you can comprehend how Allah appointed good and evil leaders.

The rest of your post is just you reading into things and trying to link whatever is written with your Shiite beliefs, and the funny part is that you refuted yourself when you said "This shows all judges to be referred to have to be linked to God and his Messenger."

But what does being linked to God and his Messenger (saw) mean? Does it mean you need to be appointed by God via text? That an announcement needs to descend from the skies? Or does being linked simply mean that you believe in him and his book and his prophets and judge based on what was revealed?

You yourself answered when you wrote:

"This shows judges have a partial representation of God and his Messenger, and just like Rabanayoon use to judge a long side the Prophets in bani-Israel, such pious knowledgeable people of Quran and Sunnah are required to be referred to. "

Referring to this verse:

{Lo! We did reveal the Torah, wherein is guidance and a light, by which the prophets who surrendered (unto Allah) judged the Jews, and the rabbis and the priests (judged) by such of Allah's Scripture as they were bidden to observe, and thereunto were they witnesses. So fear not mankind, but fear Me. And My revelations for a little gain. Whoso judgeth not by that which Allah hath revealed: such are disbelievers.} [5:44]

In other words, a pious scholar (ie Abu Bakr) can judge based on Allah's book and that would be pleasing to Allah.

As for Quraysh they're all from Aal-Ibrahim and his progeny, and those who rule do not necessarily need to be direct descendants of a Prophet, because `Ali was not a descendant of the Prophet Muhammad (saw), nor was Yusha` (as) a descendant of Musa (as), nor is Muhammad (saw) a descendant of `Isa (as), nor is `Isa (as) a descendant of Yahya (as) etc...

If we were to differ with Abu Bakr's judgement, then we simply refer the matter to Allah and his Messenger (saw) as stated in the verse IF we believed in Allah and the last day.

{O you who have believed, obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those in authority among you. And if you disagree over anything, refer it to Allah and the Messenger, if you should believe in Allah and the Last Day.} [4:59]

More importantly, who's in authority today? `Ali's dead is he not? Don't tell me the 12th hidden leader? If that's the case then how can Allah burden me with the responsibility of acquiring religious rulings ONLY through an infallible if this infallible is not available!? Where is this chest(Tabout) that descended from the sky and ordered us to follow this non-existent man!? Or is it guesswork?
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

Link

I looked at your reply and saw nothing worthy of response. The truth stands clear from error.
Love of the family of Yaseen is the light of the heavens and the earth.

Hani

On to your second post,

You wrote:
((Yes they are Prophets but it's emphasizing on their leadership and authority, which gives context of Ulil-Amr authority being one and the same with that of those Prophets.))

Great, so it's emphasizing on the leadership of these prophets, good for them but `Ali isn't a prophet so his leadership is not included.

You said:

((Always judge according to what God and his Messenger judge and are always commanding to refer to judges with a link back to God and his Messenger showing their command is of the the divine rule of justice and revelation.))

We answered this above when we said that any man of piety and knowledge is linked to God and can judge based on what he understands from the scriptures. Unless you mean by "linked" that he needs to receive direct constant revelation then you screwed us up because Allah ended prophet-hood and by consensus of Muslims only prophets are directly linked to God through revelation.

So either a man judges by what he understands from the scriptures and that would be pleasing to Allah OR a man is directly linked to Allah's revelation through which Allah would guide him to whatever judgement he has to make. This second one is not available so placing him as a condition is out of the question.

((The ikhtalaf is obviously not with the Ulil-Amr but as the next verse shows, about going to the Messenger and revelation, to get our disputes judged.))

That was an incident during his life, now he's not here but his teachings remain so we refer to those.

((You didn't respond to any of the points. Saying the dispute is referring to Ulil-Amr is a weak interpretation that has no support.))

It's not weak, it's actually the opinion of the vast majority of scholars and is implied by the text. The verse is telling us to obey those in authority from among us and if we are to differ among ourselves (Those in authority included as they are among us) then we refer to the Qur'an and the Sunnah.

You don't even know why this verse was revealed, the Prophet (saw) used to appoint as is known by consensus certain men to be in positions of authority, such as `Uthman ibn `Affan , Sa`d bin `Ubadah or `Amr ibn al-`Aas. When he would appoint a man in a position of authority, such as Usamah ibn Zayd whom he appointed as a general for his army before his death, this would mean that we must obey the man the Prophet (saw) appointed in authority over us. As you can see, 99.99% of the times these men in authority over us would not be infallible as your sect claims, in other words they can make mistakes and misjudgments, these matters during the life of the Prophet (saw) would be resolved by referring to the Qur'an and by seeking the Messenger (saw) and asking him.

This verse was revealed DURING THE LIFE OF THE MESSENGER (saw), in his life there were plenty of men appointed in position of authority over us BY HIM, and so the verse explains for us how to handle our disputes.
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

Hani

I looked at your reply and saw nothing worthy of response. The truth stands clear from error.

I'm happy for you man, you don't have to put any effort then

= )
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

Furkan

Too bad.

I really think brother Link is sincere. He has chosen different paths multiple times, so why not consider the possibility of Sunnis being on haq.

Hani, thanks again. Very clear, link should think about your posts.
Before Qazî Mihemed, President of the first kurdish Republic Mahabad was hanged the iranian judge asked:

“last words?”

Qazî: “I thank Allah: even in death he put my shoes above your heads”

Aba AbdAllah

You need to read these two articles on Ulil Amr issue:

Part 1: A multi-angular refutation of Shiite views on Ulil-Amr(4:59)
https://youpuncturedtheark.wordpress.com/2014/01/25/part-1-a-multi-angular-refutation-of-shiite-views-on-ulil-amr459/


Part 2: A multi-angular refutation of Shiite views on Ulil-Amr.
https://youpuncturedtheark.wordpress.com/2014/01/25/part-2-a-multi-angular-refutation-of-shiite-views-on-ulil-amr/

Rationalist



You didn't respond to any of the points. Saying the dispute is referring to Ulil-Amr is a weak interpretation that has no support.
Your reasoning is based purely on analogy and extrapolations, something Imam Jafar never used. On top of that in your books Imam Jafar supposedly does takfir against Imam Abu Hanifa for using qiyas. Ironically you are using it today. 

Furkan

Welcome to the dark side Link ^^
Before Qazî Mihemed, President of the first kurdish Republic Mahabad was hanged the iranian judge asked:

“last words?”

Qazî: “I thank Allah: even in death he put my shoes above your heads”

 

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