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Verse 33:6 is clearly about Ahlulbayt Wilayah.

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Soccer

Re: Verse 33:6 is clearly about Ahlulbayt Wilayah.
« Reply #20 on: August 20, 2020, 09:37:06 PM »
Desperation can cause people to hide behind such idiotic remarks.  Even if we assume I do not know language, at least it is better than disbelieving the Qur'an.

People in general don't expect the trial of the sorcery and devils, and so what is really a very easy book to recite and understand, become very difficult. Part of the Quran is removing the dark sorcery upon it, but, it has key verses about that, including 3:7 but also the verses that shed light on that in Suratal Haaj with respect to the sorcery, and all the talk about "distorting words from their proper place" is about context. If you remove words from their context, and we Muslims for a very long time cannot see Quran in it's glory and easy recitation because the dark magic blocks us from reflecting properly in the easy ways we apply to all other books and speech of others.

If we can defeat the sorcery, and it's not easy unless we seek help of God as well as strive to unlearn our assumptions by the healing nature of the words of Ahlulbayt, we will come to know the Quran is very clear, very bright, and nothing of it's darkness will remain but in time, will be removed and the light of it proven.

Quran has more signs then verses, it has more proofs then verses, it has infinite ways of combining and contextualizing,  if there is any book that can break all the Satanic forces dark magic, the propaganda the Taghut, and remove the darkness and falsehood, it's the Quran, but we need the help of hadiths of Ahlulbayt to begin to reflect properly.

The hadiths we attributed to Ahlulbayt are minefield, almost for every x fact, there is a negation of x somewhere in the collection we have, if not the opposite of x.

Approach with caution, but something amazing happens we you seek to see what they say in Quran or see Quran in light of what they said (Different then subjecting a verse to a hadith be it "authentic" or not).

You become to unlock insight, and the united nature of the reminder of the Prophet station which the Quran reveals, and the way the Prophet reveals the proper Quran, become so united, you cannot separate at all.

The family of the Prophet and Quran go together in amazing majestic way. And aside from that, there remains two type of additional signs/proofs.

There is the hidden light type proofs and the lights in the sky of this world type proofs, which is the biggest signs, per Quran, but disbelievers would think 1. Their is a sorcery done upon them. 2. They are hallucinating. 3. Think of the Trustworthy spirits as devils and as such the Prophet and his family, cannot connect everyone, despite the order in Quran, to connect people and bring a sign if they can, but it's impossible for the disbelievers, it will not avail them at all.

Then there is the physical world type miracles, type signs, which they display power that God would only trust his trustees with and no one can grant but him directly through revelation and sustaining power from him.

The Quran says the signs (all type of them) were shown to the people who are certain...

Ibrahim has right to ask for tranquility, and we have the right to seek knowledge from Ahlulbayt and in context of both family of the reminder seek knowledge from them verses, it includes seeking miracles and proofs for them.   The proofs include insights into Quran, it includes the hidden unseen connecting type rivers vision type signs, but it also includes physical miracles.

Also, the context of "You are only a warner and for every people there is a guide" is that there is a Guide who can perform the signs they were seeking mainly bring miracles, provide insights, and prove the religion of truth.

Some people say "why God doesn't talk to us or bring signs" and yet God shows the signs to the people who are certain. It maybe the verse "and made from them leaders who guide by our command when they were patient and certain of our signs...", it maybe it's not reference not to leaders being patient or sure of the signs, but when the Imams of Bani-Israel became guide to some people and those people were those who became patient and certain of signs.

It might be weird that the Imams only can become that for them when they are patient or certain of signs, but the Quran alludes to this everywhere. It says Mohammad (s) cannot guide who he loves, and can't guide who God misguides, and can only warn who fears God.

And God says it's upon us to get guided and safeguard ourselves.  Naturally, the Imams want to be guides to the pious, but if we don't strive and don't shut off doubts in the unseen, how can they guide.

The word of guarding which essential is the pure word from God which is the pure tree of life, that is the rope of God and handhold, that is the tree of Nubuwa and the household of revelation.

If we can hold on to them - in the vision of the heart, as well, as recognize their names in the outward world, and even their respective alias titles of the 14 Sequences of the mysterious broken letters, and realize something amazing about the nature of Quran in that respect....

The Quran becomes vividly clear and so does God's Existence, and you realize the ontological argument is damn right, there is no way not see God if you realize that existence by nature is the default and furthermore necessary, and the necessary being can only be absolute life and existence. It becomes to mathematically see God has to exist and does, and there is no doubt.

Suratal Ikhlaas reaches glorious levels, and you thank Ahlulbayt (a) mainly for giving us this knowledge of Tawhid, and Mohammad (s) and his steadfast loving followers of his time, for giving us a religion and book and Sunnah, that has stood the test of time, and has secrets leading to God, and connecting us to him.

And we thank all the followers of Ahlulbayt (a) that sacrifice the world to give us a traces of light, that can unlock the Quran and break the dark magic.

May God not make us hate the believers for they are leaves of the blessed tree, and may he not make us hate the blessed tree for the root is God himself and the Prophet is the foundation true, but God revealed his light to his light, and Mohammad (s) was unknown and lost in vision of Jinn and humans, without Quran, and his light was even hidden to himself.

May God make us cling to the light, and destroy the falsehood and break the sorcery and break the knots that Satan tied, and make those who the winds do not move, and who's feet are firm through the firm word of God and spirit from him.



"Is it so bad, then, to be misunderstood? Pythagoras was misunderstood, and Socrates, and Jesus, and Luther, and Copernicus, and Galileo, and Newton, and every pure and wise spirit that ever took flesh. To be great is to be misunderstood.” ― Ralph Waldo Emerson, Self-Reliance

muslim720

Re: Verse 33:6 is clearly about Ahlulbayt Wilayah.
« Reply #21 on: August 20, 2020, 11:15:45 PM »
The hadiths we attributed to Ahlulbayt are minefield, almost for every x fact, there is a negation of x somewhere in the collection we have, if not the opposite of x.

Approach with caution, but something amazing happens we you seek to see what they say in Quran or see Quran in light of what they said (Different then subjecting a verse to a hadith be it "authentic" or not).

Interesting but then how do you reconcile between the two dichotomies?  If X exists and another narration exists that diametrically opposes X, how do you know which one is authentic given that they both come from the same source, i.e., Imams (ra)?

It was discovering this critical piece of information that completely reassured my faith in the Sunni ahaadith and proved beyond any doubt that Shia Islam is weak.
"Our coward ran from those in authority" - Iceman (admitting the truth regarding his 12th Imam)

Soccer

Re: Verse 33:6 is clearly about Ahlulbayt Wilayah.
« Reply #22 on: August 20, 2020, 11:32:03 PM »
Interesting but then how do you reconcile between the two dichotomies?  If X exists and another narration exists that diametrically opposes X, how do you know which one is authentic given that they both come from the same source, i.e., Imams (ra)?

It was discovering this critical piece of information that completely reassured my faith in the Sunni ahaadith and proved beyond any doubt that Shia Islam is weak.

This was confusing for me, but it's much easier then I thought.  They calculate their words to compliment Quran and all hadiths can be referred to Quran as far as guidance goes. 

In fact, the true istikhera of Quran is not to randomize Quran and pick a page/verse, but seek proof for the matter of guidance in Quran, that is because no decision can we make as far as guidance goes, but Quran has the solution for it.

The other forms of Istekhara is to seek council of a learn and gain insight or to get inspiration in one mind and heart.

The form that resembles Satanic Tarrot cards and what not, I don't find any justification for it in the Quran or hadiths (the hadiths and du'as to this has been misinterpreted).

I brought the point of Quran because Quran is that comprehensive - and Ahlulbayt said any Sunnah or hadith the Quran doesn't verify is a lie.

They didn't say contradict, they said didn't verify.

"Is it so bad, then, to be misunderstood? Pythagoras was misunderstood, and Socrates, and Jesus, and Luther, and Copernicus, and Galileo, and Newton, and every pure and wise spirit that ever took flesh. To be great is to be misunderstood.” ― Ralph Waldo Emerson, Self-Reliance

muslim720

Re: Verse 33:6 is clearly about Ahlulbayt Wilayah.
« Reply #23 on: August 22, 2020, 03:32:37 AM »
1.  This was confusing for me, but it's much easier then I thought.  They calculate their words to compliment Quran and all hadiths can be referred to Quran as far as guidance goes. 

2.  I brought the point of Quran because Quran is that comprehensive - and Ahlulbayt said any Sunnah or hadith the Quran doesn't verify is a lie.

So, you have laid down two principles:

1.  Qur'an is the standard.  If a single hadith accords with the Qur'an, it is authentic.

2.  Anything said in the name of Ahlul Bayt (ra) which does not parallel the Qur'an is inauthentic.

Given those two principles, you have completely undone Shiaism.  If the ahaadith are to be authenticated in the light of Qur'an then it leaves no room for any additional guidance, clarifications and explanations, meaning, there is nothing in the ahaadith not already specified in the Qur'an.  And if everything is already spelled out in the Qur'an, there is no need for any guidance after the Holy Prophet (saw).  Therefore, the whole notion that the world needs an Imam (ra) to survive is blown to smithereens because if everything worth knowing is in the Qur'an, who needs "infallible" Imams (ra)?
"Our coward ran from those in authority" - Iceman (admitting the truth regarding his 12th Imam)

Soccer

Re: Verse 33:6 is clearly about Ahlulbayt Wilayah.
« Reply #24 on: August 22, 2020, 03:37:00 AM »
So, you have laid down two principles:

1.  Qur'an is the standard.  If a single hadith accords with the Qur'an, it is authentic.

2.  Anything said in the name of Ahlul Bayt (ra) which does not parallel the Qur'an is inauthentic.

Given those two principles, you have completely undone Shiaism.  If the ahaadith are to be authenticated in the light of Qur'an then it leaves no room for any additional guidance, clarifications and explanations, meaning, there is nothing in the ahaadith not already specified in the Qur'an.  And if everything is already spelled out in the Qur'an, there is no need for any guidance after the Holy Prophet (saw).  Therefore, the whole notion that the world needs an Imam (ra) to survive is blown to smithereens because if everything worth knowing is in the Qur'an, who needs "infallible" Imams (ra)?

Reread what I said on how Sunnah and hadiths compliment Quran and they go together.  There is nothing the Quran doesn't contain in the Sunnah, but people aren't going to perceive in the Quran without the help of the Sunnah.

"Is it so bad, then, to be misunderstood? Pythagoras was misunderstood, and Socrates, and Jesus, and Luther, and Copernicus, and Galileo, and Newton, and every pure and wise spirit that ever took flesh. To be great is to be misunderstood.” ― Ralph Waldo Emerson, Self-Reliance

Soccer

Re: Verse 33:6 is clearly about Ahlulbayt Wilayah.
« Reply #25 on: August 22, 2020, 07:31:22 PM »
And of course, if it was not for the dark sorcery, no one would not see Ahlulbayt in Quran and how clear their position of Authority is there.

Hadiths are part of the way to unbind what Satan binds, and unlock ways of perception and insights.
"Is it so bad, then, to be misunderstood? Pythagoras was misunderstood, and Socrates, and Jesus, and Luther, and Copernicus, and Galileo, and Newton, and every pure and wise spirit that ever took flesh. To be great is to be misunderstood.” ― Ralph Waldo Emerson, Self-Reliance

muslim720

Re: Verse 33:6 is clearly about Ahlulbayt Wilayah.
« Reply #26 on: August 24, 2020, 09:24:43 PM »
Reread what I said on how Sunnah and hadiths compliment Quran and they go together.  There is nothing the Quran doesn't contain in the Sunnah, but people aren't going to perceive in the Quran without the help of the Sunnah.

You have only restated your premise so my point still stands!

If all that is in the Qur'an is in the Sunnah, and everything in the Sunnah is verifiable in accordance to the Qur'an, there is literally zero need for any guide - last of it would be twelve "infallible" guides (ra) - to elucidate the religion.  In fact, this principle shatters every alleged hadith regarding Imamah because there is no mention of Imamah in the Qur'an.



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And of course, if it was not for the dark sorcery, no one would not see Ahlulbayt in Quran and how clear their position of Authority is there.

So this necessitates the need for raaqi, assuming you're right, not Imams (ra).
"Our coward ran from those in authority" - Iceman (admitting the truth regarding his 12th Imam)

Soccer

Re: Verse 33:6 is clearly about Ahlulbayt Wilayah.
« Reply #27 on: August 25, 2020, 12:13:45 AM »
You are asserting but not trying to understand the way hadiths, Sunnah and Quran compliment one another and the need of guides to compliment it.

God didn't assign humans and assigned Prophet with the Sunna because the Quran is deficient in guidance.  That's not the reason.

"Is it so bad, then, to be misunderstood? Pythagoras was misunderstood, and Socrates, and Jesus, and Luther, and Copernicus, and Galileo, and Newton, and every pure and wise spirit that ever took flesh. To be great is to be misunderstood.” ― Ralph Waldo Emerson, Self-Reliance

muslim720

Re: Verse 33:6 is clearly about Ahlulbayt Wilayah.
« Reply #28 on: August 25, 2020, 04:57:02 PM »
You are asserting but not trying to understand the way hadiths, Sunnah and Quran compliment one another and the need of guides to compliment it.

God didn't assign humans and assigned Prophet with the Sunna because the Quran is deficient in guidance.  That's not the reason.

You do not understand the implications of your own principles.  Precisely the issue with Shias and Shiaism at large!
"Our coward ran from those in authority" - Iceman (admitting the truth regarding his 12th Imam)

Soccer

Re: Verse 33:6 is clearly about Ahlulbayt Wilayah.
« Reply #29 on: August 25, 2020, 09:25:23 PM »
I do understand the implications. It means Sunnism and Shiism as is, is based on conjecture and falsehood. The real way is to gain insights through combining Quran and Sunnah and using them together to gain insights.  Insights when perceived open doors to other insights.   The way to open to doors from Quran to Quran, through help of the Sunnah, is the solution.
"Is it so bad, then, to be misunderstood? Pythagoras was misunderstood, and Socrates, and Jesus, and Luther, and Copernicus, and Galileo, and Newton, and every pure and wise spirit that ever took flesh. To be great is to be misunderstood.” ― Ralph Waldo Emerson, Self-Reliance

muslim720

Re: Verse 33:6 is clearly about Ahlulbayt Wilayah.
« Reply #30 on: August 26, 2020, 08:13:28 PM »
I do understand the implications. It means Sunnism and Shiism as is, is based on conjecture and falsehood. The real way is to gain insights through combining Quran and Sunnah and using them together to gain insights.

Gain insights through combining Qur'an and which Sunnah?  You've already rejected the Sunnah claimed by both sides because you've already declared Sunni Islam and Shi'i Islam to be based on "conjecture and falsehood".

Furthermore, in your other topic, you undermined ilm-ul-rijaal which not only brings all books of ahaadith (Shia and Sunni) under question but also the Qur'an.

So which Qur'an and which Sunnah do you suggest we take in combination to gain insights?
"Our coward ran from those in authority" - Iceman (admitting the truth regarding his 12th Imam)

Soccer

Re: Verse 33:6 is clearly about Ahlulbayt Wilayah.
« Reply #31 on: August 26, 2020, 11:19:23 PM »
Gain insights through combining Qur'an and which Sunnah?  You've already rejected the Sunnah claimed by both sides because you've already declared Sunni Islam and Shi'i Islam to be based on "conjecture and falsehood".

Furthermore, in your other topic, you undermined ilm-ul-rijaal which not only brings all books of ahaadith (Shia and Sunni) under question but also the Qur'an.

So which Qur'an and which Sunnah do you suggest we take in combination to gain insights?

Insights give insights no matter what.  The words of the Prophet (s) and Imams (a) can guide regardless of who passes them on.

The Quran itself is uniquely designed to guide all humans in all they need from God.  The Sunnah is coupled with it.

Words of light even if declared weak, coupled with Quran, can be verified.  Words of darkness that contradict Quran can be seen to contradict Quran even if declared authentic.

The Prophet (s) and Imams (a) calculate their words as far guidance goes to compliment the Quran.

It doesn't need to be at mercy of a reputation system when Quran refutes reputation as a reliable means of knowing who is good and evil, and who truthful and liar, and who guards against evil and who doesn't.

"Is it so bad, then, to be misunderstood? Pythagoras was misunderstood, and Socrates, and Jesus, and Luther, and Copernicus, and Galileo, and Newton, and every pure and wise spirit that ever took flesh. To be great is to be misunderstood.” ― Ralph Waldo Emerson, Self-Reliance

muslim720

Re: Verse 33:6 is clearly about Ahlulbayt Wilayah.
« Reply #32 on: August 27, 2020, 04:41:15 PM »
Insights give insights no matter what.

Well, that is not circular logic (sarcasm)!



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The words of the Prophet (s) and Imams (a) can guide regardless of who passes them on.

How do you actually ascertain what the Holy Prophet (saw) said, and even the Imams (ra), when you cast doubt on ilm-ul-rijaal (as you have in the other topic regarding reputation)?




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The Quran itself is uniquely designed to guide all humans in all they need from God.  The Sunnah is coupled with it.

Sunnah, as in ahaadith, but how can you be sure about ahaadith when you don't care about ilm-ul-rijaal (as you have in the other topic)?




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Words of light even if declared weak, coupled with Quran, can be verified.  Words of darkness that contradict Quran can be seen to contradict Quran even if declared authentic.

Stop with the metaphors, idiot!  You're really not that smart nor is anything you say any benefit to anyone, including your own self.  The Qur'an itself has come to us via a chain which involves men (or people).  So, again, how can you commit to the "light" of the Qur'an when you cast doubt on ilm-ul-rijaal?




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It doesn't need to be at mercy of a reputation system when Quran refutes reputation as a reliable means of knowing who is good and evil, and who truthful and liar, and who guards against evil and who doesn't.

So Qur'an refutes reputation as a reliable means of knowing (according to you), therefore, you should have no issues taking an understanding of the Qur'an from me.  Right?
"Our coward ran from those in authority" - Iceman (admitting the truth regarding his 12th Imam)

Soccer

Re: Verse 33:6 is clearly about Ahlulbayt Wilayah.
« Reply #33 on: August 27, 2020, 07:06:17 PM »
Quran is a book of proofs. It proves everything it says.  Ahlulbayt (a) words are words of light and guidance. They are calculated to compliment Quran which proves everything it says to all humans.

The way Quran proves every aspect of guidance, is such, that there is more proofs in it than there are verses.  There are more "Ayat" in Quran than there are actual verses.

The way it proves everything requires however deep reflection and boost start from Ahlulbayt (a).  Without Ahlulbayt (a), we would never defeat the dark sorcery that blinds people with respect to it and tangles them in a web of unclarity despite it being a clear book full of clear proofs.

The way to gain it's insight is not separate from coming thirsty to the family of the reminder. They know the nature of blindness and the dark magic that has gained sway over the hearts of humanity and are very well aware how the Quran works and calculate their words.

I've repeated this many times. Insights are not to be blindly followed, but rather perceived through reflection.

Because you not engaged in truly understanding religion and the way Quran proves everything pertaining to religion, you think I'm speaking something in theory but has no reality.

You believe the reality is we have to pick a sect, pick scholars, rely on reputation, and hope for the best outcome when ascribing to God laws and other things.

But nothing more has been warned of that attributing God what we don't know.   You can't ignore Quran and Sunnah and think they are silent on how to approach religion.

Insights don't rely on reputation to be reliable - it can be quoted by Donald Trump for all I care, and still the words if giving insights and from Ahlulbayt (a), should give you insights.

The Quran is designed that any reflecting (tatabur) that is not from God and Quran would contradict other parts of the Quran, not just one, not just two, but many themes and verses. This is the nature of Quran guarding itself.

It's designed so not even a false reflection over it won't contradict Quran.  Therefore, we can engage in reflection as long as we do so to become enlightened and actually reflect over all the implications of God's words, we will unlock doors opening other doors.

It's not only the case that books from God work this way,  it's that Prophets (a) performed miracles by engaging with the books they were given.  They knew what it can give them and the link to God it can lead to and the power and sustenance from God they can directly receive through it,  the books from God are not like other books.

That said, because of their higher nature, and because of the nature of Satan and his forces and the dark magic,  we should come as thirsty to hadiths as to Quran.  Hadiths are a way to reflect over Quran.

This doesn't rely on conjecture on who is trustworthy and who is not. It requires to disengage with that, and engage with perceiving insights through the mind and soul,  it requires a heart seeking knowledge and wisdom.

"Is it so bad, then, to be misunderstood? Pythagoras was misunderstood, and Socrates, and Jesus, and Luther, and Copernicus, and Galileo, and Newton, and every pure and wise spirit that ever took flesh. To be great is to be misunderstood.” ― Ralph Waldo Emerson, Self-Reliance

muslim720

Re: Verse 33:6 is clearly about Ahlulbayt Wilayah.
« Reply #34 on: August 28, 2020, 05:44:09 PM »
I've repeated this many times. Insights are not to be blindly followed, but rather perceived through reflection.

No two people perceive things the same way.  If your solution is this arbitrary, why was Imam Hussain (ra) right and Yazeed wrong?



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Because you not engaged in truly understanding religion and the way Quran proves everything pertaining to religion, you think I'm speaking something in theory but has no reality.

Again, if understanding the religion is this arbitrary, why shouldn't I take a non-Muslim's commentary on the Qur'an?



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You believe the reality is we have to pick a sect, pick scholars, rely on reputation, and hope for the best outcome when ascribing to God laws and other things.

No, I believe in picking a chain that directly takes me back to the medium of the Qur'an - the Holy Prophet (saw).  You're the one to call for an arbitrary process while also making a case for Imams (ra).  Don't know why you can't see how self-contradictory you are!



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But nothing more has been warned of that attributing God what we don't know.   You can't ignore Quran and Sunnah and think they are silent on how to approach religion.

How can you have Qur'an and Sunnah without chain and ilm-ul-rijaal?  So which Qur'an and which Sunnah are you talking about?



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Insights don't rely on reputation to be reliable - it can be quoted by Donald Trump for all I care, and still the words if giving insights and from Ahlulbayt (a), should give you insights.

So, according to you, Islamic insights can come from Donald Trump as much as they can come from the Imams (ra)!  ahahahaha, I'm done here.  If only every Shi'i believed what you believe then we wouldn't have to put effort in exposing Shiaism's fallacies.  They would have been clear as day for everyone to see.

"Our coward ran from those in authority" - Iceman (admitting the truth regarding his 12th Imam)

Soccer

Re: Verse 33:6 is clearly about Ahlulbayt Wilayah.
« Reply #35 on: August 28, 2020, 11:57:51 PM »
You keep repeating the same question but I've answered it already.
"Is it so bad, then, to be misunderstood? Pythagoras was misunderstood, and Socrates, and Jesus, and Luther, and Copernicus, and Galileo, and Newton, and every pure and wise spirit that ever took flesh. To be great is to be misunderstood.” ― Ralph Waldo Emerson, Self-Reliance

 

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