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Was Abu Bakr or Ali the first Caliph

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Qamar Farooq

Was Abu Bakr or Ali the first Caliph
« on: August 31, 2017, 08:14:26 AM »
The Rafida Channel has uploaded a translation of a debate that was held in the netherlands on the topic of imamah. Let the discussion begin!!!



Hani

Re: Was Abu Bakr or Ali the first Caliph
« Reply #1 on: August 31, 2017, 07:29:49 PM »
Is there a summary? We don't know who these people are.
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

karim fattah

Re: Was Abu Bakr or Ali the first Caliph
« Reply #2 on: August 31, 2017, 08:49:44 PM »
salam,

not to be mean but i dont really think the sunni did the best of jobs, either way lets discuss. the shia claimed that quran 5:55 was about ali ibn abi talib, he said paid the zakt while in ruku and the shia claim is that ali paid the zakat in ruku, he said he had 63 proofs of the sunnis,

he did not mention any single one of these 63 he supposedly had, but lets see what big scholar ssaid about these ahadith

This was explained by Shaykh al-Islam Ibn Taymiyah (may Allah have mercy on him) who said:

Some of the liars fabricated a false hadith which says that this verse was revealed concerning ‘Ali when he gave his ring in charity whilst praying. This is false according to the consensus of the scholars of hadith, and its falseness is apparent from many angles:

ibn taymiyyah then goes on to refute that this verse is about ali which i will include later in my message.

Shaykh Ibn Baaz  was asked about this hadith and he said:

This hadith is not saheeh. It was mentioned by al-Haafiz Ibn Katheer in his Tafseer, where he deemed it to be da‘eef (weak), because the men of its isnaad are da‘eef, and some of them are unknown. He stated that as far as he knew, not one of the scholars spoke of the virtue of giving charity whilst bowing. End quote.

Shaykh al-Islam Ibn Taymiyah (may Allah have mercy on him) said in Minhaaj as-Sunnah that this hadith is fabricated.

Thus it is known that what is meant by the words of Allah, may He be exalted, “and they bow down” is that they humble themselves before Allah, may He be exalted, because bowing and prostration represent the utmost humility before Allah. So the believer gives charity in a state of humility before Allah, not in a state of arrogance or showing pride in one’s actions, and not showing off or seeking to enhance one’s reputation. And Allah is the source of strength. End quote.

Majmoo‘ Fataawa Ibn Baaz (26/218)

so the ahadith about it is false, unless he pronounces one which is sahih he claimed he has 63 but didnt provide one. now why clearly this verse is not about ali ibn abi talib ra

ibn taymiyyah said: The verse says “those who”, which is plural, and ‘Ali was one person.

·        The waw [translated as “and” in the phrase “, and they bow down (submit themselves with obedience to Allah in prayer)”] is not describing the state or situation of the people in question [so it does not mean “whilst”]. If that were the case, it would not be appropriate for any Muslim to take as a protector or helper anyone except one who gives zakaah whilst bowing, and therefore he should not take as a protector or helper anyone else among the Sahaabah or relatives of the Prophet (blessings and peace of Allah be upon him).

·        Words of praise usually only apply to obligatory or mustahabb actions. Giving zakaah whilst praying is neither obligatory nor mustahabb, according to the consensus of Muslim scholars, because the person who is praying is already preoccupied.

·        If giving charity whilst praying were something good, there would be no difference between doing that whilst bowing and otherwise; rather it would be more convenient to give it whilst standing and sitting.

·        ‘Ali (may Allah be pleased with him) was not obligated to give zakaah at the time of the Prophet (blessings and peace of Allah be upon him) [because he did not enough wealth of his own to be obliged to pay zakaah].

·        He did not have a ring either, because they did not wear rings, until the Prophet (blessings and peace of Allah be upon him) wrote a letter to Chosroes, and was told that they would not accept any letter unless it had a seal, so he acquired a ring of silver and had engraved on it the words “Muhammad the Messenger of Allah”.

·        Giving something other than a ring in zakaah is better than giving a ring, because most of the fuqaha’ say: Giving a ring is not acceptable as zakaah.

·        This hadith says that he gave it to someone who asked for charity. What is praiseworthy with regard to zakaah is to take the initiative in giving it and to give it as soon as it becomes due, not to wait for someone to ask for it.

·        The words come in the context of forbidding taking disbelievers as protectors and helpers, and enjoining taking believers as protectors and helpers, as is indicated by the context.

End quote.

Minhaaj as-Sunnah an-Nabawiyyah (2/30-32)

now my own addition as to why 5:55 is not about ali ra


they say that the verse is referring to ali ibn abi talib, this is wrong because the verse is talking plurally. here is the verse.

إِنَّمَا وَلِيُّكُمُ اللَّهُ وَرَسُولُهُ وَالَّذِينَ آمَنُوا الَّذِينَ يُقِيمُونَ الصَّلَاةَ وَيُؤْتُونَ الزَّكَاةَ وَهُمْ رَاكِعُونَ   

Innama waliyyukumu Allahu warasooluhu waallatheena amanoo allatheena yuqeemoona alssalata wayu/toona alzzakata wahum rakiAAoona   zoom

Literal
(Word by Word)       Only your ally (is) Allah and His Messenger, and those who believe, and those who establish the prayer and give zakah and they (are) those who bow down.

it says allatheena (plural) yuqeemoona (plural) wayu/toona (plural) alzakkata

before going on, the next word is very very important, it says: وَهُمْ  or wahum,. this word is very important because this is the person who is doing the bowing, what does wahum mean it is PLURAL, so the very being that is doing this bowing is PLURAL, so is ali ibn abi talib now a plural? the whole verse before the bowing is plural and the verse of bowing is plural

allatheena is plural, yuqeemoona is plural, wayutoona is plural, and then wahum the very word which is to describe the very bowing action which the crux of the matter is, is plural, and the next word which is "bowing" is ALSO PURAL it says: رَاكِعُونَ or rakiAAoona which is plural

so the whole verse is plural, from allatheena, to wahum to rakiaaoona so how can it be about 1 imam?

In regards to Verse 5:55 above, it is a stretch to say that this verse refers to Ali (رضّى الله عنه). Once again, we see that the Shia was unable to simply show us the verse in the Quran without their own commentary. As such, this does not fulfill the “Quran Challenge” in the least. Without their added commentary, this verse does not in any way discuss their Shia belief.

In fact, it is an impossibility that this verse refers to Ali (رضّى الله عنه) when it talks about “believers” which is in the plural form. How can this verse refer to Ali (رضّى الله عنه) when it is in the plural form? Yuqeemoona, yu-toona, hum, and raki’oona are all plural structures. Now, the Shia will respond by saying it is in plural because it refers to all of their twelve Infallible Imams. But that is peculiar, since the Shia was just arguing earlier that this verse referred to a specific story in which Ali (رضّى الله عنه) gave his ring in charity while in Rukoo. This is a contradiction that needs to be pondered upon.

also the verse doesnt even say give zakah while bowing, rather it says they give zakah and they bow, not zakah while bowing, ibn taymiyyah says this, ·        The verse says “those who”, which is plural, and ‘Ali was one person.

·        The waw [translated as “and” in the phrase “, and they bow down (submit themselves with obedience to Allah in prayer)”] is not describing the state or situation of the people in question [so it does not mean “whilst”]. If that were the case, it would not be appropriate for any Muslim to take as a protector or helper anyone except one who gives zakaah whilst bowing, and therefore he should not take as a protector or helper anyone else among the Sahaabah or relatives of the Prophet (blessings and peace of Allah be upon him).

also Qur'an 5:55

إِنَّمَا وَلِيُّكُمُ اللَّـهُ وَرَسُولُهُ وَالَّذِينَ آمَنُوا الَّذِينَ يُقِيمُونَ الصَّلَاةَ وَيُؤْتُونَ الزَّكَاةَ وَهُمْ رَاكِعُونَ

Your ally is none but Allah and [therefore] His Messenger and those who have believed - those who establish prayer and give zakah, and they bow [in worship].

My comment: Here Allah (swt) tells the Muslims that their allies and protectors are Allah (swt), the Prophet (saw), and the believers. He then mentions some of the traits of the believers - they establish prayer, they pay zakat, and they bow down in worship. These are 3 seperate qualities, they are not one act - i.e. Allah (swt) isn't saying that they give zakat while they are praying and are in ruku'.

That would be"

يقيمون الصلاة ويؤتون الزكاة فالركوع

 "uqimoona as-salaata wa yu'toona az-zakaata fir ruku''".

They establish prayer, and give zakaat in ruku'.

The above, combined with the fact that "believers" is clearly plural, rules out it being about a single person, or about a person doing salaat and giving zakaat while he's in ruku'.

so 5:55 is not about ali, because the verse in every way possible is plural from the words: Yuqeemoona, yu-toona, hum, and raki’oona

the very word to describe the one paying the zakat is pural: wahum
the very word to descibre bowing is plural, rakiAAoona

so how can it be about ali when it in EVERY WAY IS PLURAL, so i think just by this it is already refuted

he claimed he had ahadith from the sunni, ibn taymiyyah and ibn baz already refuted this

next THE VERSE DOESNT EVEN SAY PAY ZAKAT WHILE BOWING, so how can it be about Ali even if he gave zakat while bowing, the verse says those who pay zakat and those who bow,NOT those who pay zakat while bowing

So in every single way it is not about ali


also some refutations from online:

1st*  No mention of name of Hazrat Ali(r.a) here. 2nd*  As the name of Ali(r.a) is not directly mentioned, a narration of hadis about this ayat is necessary, but there is rarely any base !! Totally fabricated narration, there is no necessary authenticity of this story.

3rd*  Ali(r.a) is Amirul Mu’minin, he can’t harm Salat by concentrating outside or moving fingers. And in Salat one should be occupied (as Rasulullah Sallallahu Alaihi Wasallam said) than moving to “Zakat” . As Quran says to strictly concentrate in Salat. So ,  this story is slander against Ali(r.a) .
 
4th*   This Ayat mentions Zakat, that is given by going to people, not when people come to you!  This fabricated narration making Ali(r.a) a person- who waits for people to come and then give Zakat.

5th*  During the lifetime of Prophet(s.a.w) , it was not obligatory to Hazrat Ali(r.a) to  give Zakat. As he and many other sahaba were living under hard condition. He even did not have MAhr to give in his marriage with Fatima(r.a), so Rasul(s.a.w) advised him to hive his metal armor.

6th* This is a blatant lie.AS the Shia narrations say, that poor man was a CAPTIVE !! who was walking around in Madina and asking for food !!!!   Captive did not ran away, but was wandering around !!

7th*  Then why it is not a Sunnah giving Zakat while in Ruku of Salat?! If Allah praised while giving Zakat inside Salat (according to their narration)  then it should have been a Sunnah.

»»»  Concerning  the “ruku” «««

In this ayat Allah(swt) already mentioned  about establishing Salat, and we all know that Ruku, Sijdah are included in Salat !!  And in Arabic , words 3 rooted and can change meaning when form changed in different places. Here the Extra Ruku means  -Submission to Allah.  As he said about Dawood(a.s)

    [Dawud] said, "He has certainly wronged you in demanding your ewe [in addition] to his ewes. And indeed, many associates oppress one another, except for those who believe and do righteous deeds - and few are they." And Dawud became certain that We had tried him, and he asked forgiveness of his Lord and fell down bowing [in prostration] and turned in repentance [to Allah].  Sura Saad (38:24)

    Here Dawud(a.s) did not went to Ruku, rather fell to sijdah, so we go to sijdah when we recite this ayat.  Rasul(s.a.w) said so. He fell down in the submission to Allah.   Similar about when Allah said to Maryam(a.s) in Sura A’le Imran, Ayat 43. “O Maryam, be devoutly obedient to your Lord and prostrate and bow with those who bow [in prayer]."   3:43  She was in a separate place under care of Zakariyya(a.s), not praying salat in Jamaat !!  So clearly the meaning is "submission" also here!



This is not a standalone verse, it is part of several verses. Let us place them in their proper context:

Qur'an 5:51:

يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا لَا تَتَّخِذُوا الْيَهُودَ وَالنَّصَارَىٰ أَوْلِيَاءَ ۘ بَعْضُهُمْ أَوْلِيَاءُ بَعْضٍ ۚ وَمَن يَتَوَلَّهُم مِّنكُمْ فَإِنَّهُ مِنْهُمْ ۗ إِنَّ اللَّـهَ لَا يَهْدِي الْقَوْمَ الظَّالِمِينَ

O you who have believed, do not take the Jews and the Christians as allies. They are [in fact] allies of one another. And whoever is an ally to them among you - then indeed, he is [one] of them. Indeed, Allah guides not the wrongdoing people.

My comment: The Mu'mineen are being told not to take Jews/Christians as 'awliyaa. Does it mean taking them as leaders? No - wilayah in this case is referring to closeness, friendship, protection. Now, why is Allah (swt) telling this to the believers? The next verse explains.

Qur'an 5:52

فَتَرَى الَّذِينَ فِي قُلُوبِهِم مَّرَضٌ يُسَارِعُونَ فِيهِمْ يَقُولُونَ نَخْشَىٰ أَن تُصِيبَنَا دَائِرَةٌ ۚ فَعَسَى اللَّـهُ أَن يَأْتِيَ بِالْفَتْحِ أَوْ أَمْرٍ مِّنْ عِندِهِ فَيُصْبِحُوا عَلَىٰ مَا أَسَرُّوا فِي أَنفُسِهِمْ نَادِمِينَ

So you see those in whose hearts is disease hastening into [association with] them, saying, "We are afraid a misfortune may strike us." But perhaps Allah will bring conquest or a decision from Him, and they will become, over what they have been concealing within themselves, regretful.

My comment: Some of the hypocrites (in whose hearts is disease) used the excuse that "misfortune may strike us" unless the believers made an alliance with the Jews/Christians in Madina. This was Abdallah bin 'Ubayy and his hypocrite group. Allah (swt) then says "But perhaps Allah will bring conquest...", in other words, in spite of what these hypocrites are suggesting, He will instead bring victory to the believers, and He will expose the hypocrites and their schemes.

Qur'an 5:53

وَيَقُولُ الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا أَهَـٰؤُلَاءِ الَّذِينَ أَقْسَمُوا بِاللَّـهِ جَهْدَ أَيْمَانِهِمْ ۙ إِنَّهُمْ لَمَعَكُمْ ۚ حَبِطَتْ أَعْمَالُهُمْ فَأَصْبَحُوا خَاسِرِينَ

And those who believe will say, "Are these the ones who swore by Allah their strongest oaths that indeed they were with you?" Their deeds have become worthless, and they have become losers.

My comment: After Allah (swt) has given the believers victory, and exposed the hypocrites, the believers will recognise them and denounce them.

Qur'an 5:54

يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا مَن يَرْتَدَّ مِنكُمْ عَن دِينِهِ فَسَوْفَ يَأْتِي اللَّـهُ بِقَوْمٍ يُحِبُّهُمْ وَيُحِبُّونَهُ أَذِلَّةٍ عَلَى الْمُؤْمِنِينَ أَعِزَّةٍ عَلَى الْكَافِرِينَ يُجَاهِدُونَ فِي سَبِيلِ اللَّـهِ وَلَا يَخَافُونَ لَوْمَةَ لَائِمٍ ۚ ذَٰلِكَ فَضْلُ اللَّـهِ يُؤْتِيهِ مَن يَشَاءُ ۚ وَاللَّـهُ وَاسِعٌ عَلِيمٌ

O you who have believed, whoever of you should revert from his religion - Allah will bring forth [in place of them] a people He will love and who will love Him [who are] humble toward the believers, powerful against the disbelievers; they strive in the cause of Allah and do not fear the blame of a critic. That is the favor of Allah ; He bestows it upon whom He wills. And Allah is all-Encompassing and Knowing.

My comment: Here Allah (swt) warns the believers against apostatizing from Islam, and threatens to bring forth people who possess the qualities that He mentions (if the believers should become apostates). This is obviously tied in with the warning in verse 51 (taking Jews/Christans as allies). In other words, whoever does this, contravening the order of Allah (swt), is an apostate. The warning is very severe.

Qur'an 5:55

إِنَّمَا وَلِيُّكُمُ اللَّـهُ وَرَسُولُهُ وَالَّذِينَ آمَنُوا الَّذِينَ يُقِيمُونَ الصَّلَاةَ وَيُؤْتُونَ الزَّكَاةَ وَهُمْ رَاكِعُونَ

Your ally is none but Allah and [therefore] His Messenger and those who have believed - those who establish prayer and give zakah, and they bow [in worship].

My comment: Here Allah (swt) tells the Muslims that their allies and protectors are Allah (swt), the Prophet (saw), and the believers. He then mentions some of the traits of the believers - they establish prayer, they pay zakat, and they bow down in worship. These are 3 seperate qualities, they are not one act - i.e. Allah (swt) isn't saying that they give zakat while they are praying and are in ruku'.

That would be"

يقيمون الصلاة ويؤتون الزكاة فالركوع

 "uqimoona as-salaata wa yu'toona az-zakaata fir ruku''".

They establish prayer, and give zakaat in ruku'.

The above, combined with the fact that "believers" is clearly plural, rules out it being about a single person, or about a person doing salaat and giving zakaat while he's in ruku'.

Qur'an 5:56

وَمَن يَتَوَلَّ اللَّـهَ وَرَسُولَهُ وَالَّذِينَ آمَنُوا فَإِنَّ حِزْبَ اللَّـهِ هُمُ الْغَالِبُونَ

And whoever is an ally of Allah and His Messenger and those who have believed - indeed, the party of Allah - they will be the predominant.

My comment: Once again, Allah (swt) says that the allies of the believers are Allah (swt), His Prophet (saw), and the believers. No mention of their qualities in this verse. This was already done above. But "believers" is still plural, negating it being about a specific believer.

Qur'an 5:57

يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا لَا تَتَّخِذُوا الَّذِينَ اتَّخَذُوا دِينَكُمْ هُزُوًا وَلَعِبًا مِّنَ الَّذِينَ أُوتُوا الْكِتَابَ مِن قَبْلِكُمْ وَالْكُفَّارَ أَوْلِيَاءَ ۚ وَاتَّقُوا اللَّـهَ إِن كُنتُم مُّؤْمِنِينَ

O you who have believed, take not those who have taken your religion in ridicule and amusement among the ones who were given the Scripture before you nor the disbelievers as allies. And fear Allah , if you should [truly] be believers.

My comment: Once again, Allah (swt) warns the believers against taking anyone other than Allah (swt), His Messenger (saw) and the other believers as allies. It is a clear shut case.

n regards to Verse 5:55 above, it is a stretch to say that this verse refers to Ali (رضّى الله عنه). Once again, we see that the Shia was unable to simply show us the verse in the Quran without their own commentary. As such, this does not fulfill the “Quran Challenge” in the least. Without their added commentary, this verse does not in any way discuss their Shia belief.

In fact, it is an impossibility that this verse refers to Ali (رضّى الله عنه) when it talks about “believers” which is in the plural form. How can this verse refer to Ali (رضّى الله عنه) when it is in the plural form? Yuqeemoona, yu-toona, hum, and raki’oona are all plural structures. Now, the Shia will respond by saying it is in plural because it refers to all of their twelve Infallible Imams. But that is peculiar, since the Shia was just arguing earlier that this verse referred to a specific story in which Ali (رضّى الله عنه) gave his ring in charity while in Rukoo. This is a contradiction that needs to be pondered upon.

ibn kathir says: (and they bow down,) some people thought that they give the Zakah while bowing down. If this were the case, then paying the Zakah while bowing would be the best form of giving Zakah. No scholar from whom religious rulings are taken says this, as much as we know

(and they bow down,) means, they attend the prayer in congregation in Allah's Masjids and spend by way of charity on the various needs of Muslims. Allah said;

Jalal ad-Deen as-Suyoote in his “Jalalayn” said:

When [‘Abd Allāh] Ibn Salām said, ‘O Messenger of God, our people have shunned us’, the following was revealed: Your patron is God only, and His Messenger, and the believers who establish prayer and pay the alms, bowing down, humble, or performing voluntary prayers.

So it’s quet clear that Suyote also didn’t hold opinion that disccused verse was revealed about Ali (r.a).

tabari said, sorry for the bad translation, my arabic is not the best in the world. i

ibn Katheer said in his interpretation 3: 182: As for saying: "They are kneeling," some people have speculated that this sentence is in the same position as saying: "Zakat will be paid," ie, if they are kneeling. This is not the case with one of the scholars, who we know from the imams of Fatwa, and even some of them mentioned in this a trace from Ali ibn Abi Talib that this verse was revealed in it ... "Then, the leg of the antiquities The above and the meaning of different ways.
All these effects are not made in religion. The imams spoke at the site of this sentence, and in its meaning. It is correct to say that the saying: "They are kneeling" means: They are subject to their Lord, they are obedient to him obedience, subject to him by his command to establish the prayer limits and duties of full kneeling and prostration, and prayer and reverence, and obedient to the order of the provision of Zakat and disbursement. Faces that ordered them to spend it. It is in the sense of "kneeling" which is in the origin of the language, in the sense of submission

al saadi mentions nothing about ali in his tafsir

al waseet rejects it is ali ibn abu talib: And the effects that indicate that the meaning of those who believe a certain person is Ali bin Abi Talib - may Allah be pleased with him - does not depend on them, because, according to Ibn Katheer - «nothing was true of the total weakness of the rules and the ignorance of men».
Imam al-Razi expanded in response to the Shiites who put these effects and return to him if you like.


so to conclude the verse is definitely not about ali because it is plural, says nothing about paying zakat while kneeling again IT IS PLURAL, and see all evidences i have given. and just lets take 1 more look at the verse

Only your ally (is) Allah and His Messenger, and those who believe, and those who establish the prayer and give zakah and they (are) those who bow down.

as i have proven the verse does not say while bowing down, therefor people who believe and pray and give zakat and bow to their lord are your allies, so abu bakr and umar and uthman are also allies.

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Re: Was Abu Bakr or Ali the first Caliph
« Reply #3 on: August 31, 2017, 09:32:15 PM »
Salam Alaikum,

Let me guess! The guy on the right side with just a cup of water infront of him is the Sunni? Never heard of them.
در خلافت میل نیست ای بی‌خبر
میل کی آید ز بوبکر و عمر
میل اگر بودی در آن دو مقتدا
هر دو کردندی پسر را پیشوا

عطار نِیشابوری

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karim fattah

Re: Was Abu Bakr or Ali the first Caliph
« Reply #4 on: August 31, 2017, 10:03:41 PM »
Also see this link which answers the verse and goes through hadith narrations and refutes them

http://mahajjah.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/The-Verse-of-Wilayah.pdf

If the pdf dont work see this website this should work: http://mahajjah.com/shia-beliefs-the-verse-of-wilayah/


 

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