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What do shia apologists ACTUALLY believe about sunnis' fate in the hereafter?

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Equate

Assalamu alaikum, new poster here. I hope this is the right place to ask this, insh'Allah. Genuine input from a shia person here will be appreciated.

First of all, this is coming from a layman sunni guy looking at shia-sunni dialogs and debates on the internet (e.g. speaker's corner, apologists, moderate shia outlets etc.). I have seen many times that the shias interacting in shia-sunni dialogs will adamantly proclaim that they consider sunnis as "equally muslims". While much of their orthodox scholarly sources seem to pre-dominantly call sunnis kafir (or at least call our sunni doctrine kufr, or knowingly rejecting imamah kufr), the engaging shias (who seem well versed in their theology, not just ignorant laymen) in such places as speakers corner always have that "its all good, you are still muslim no matter what" attitude in an attempt to conglomerate. As a sunni, for me there are genuine reasons to be wary of such attitudes because non-life threatening taqiyyah is well a established concept within shi'ism. However, I want to set it aside for the sake of understanding (lets assume you are not doing it). Then, I would like to ask a few things to you.

I want to tell you about a personal experience. I had a chat with a shia sometime ago. And, I asked him what the shia actually think about sunnis. He said shias believe that sunnis are also muslims, and that the shias that say sunnis are kafir are extremists. Fair enough I thought. He kept saying the same thing in circles when I was trying to understand more. I was trying to tap into his mind, and as I inquired more deeply about his beliefs, he reached a boiling point and spilled a new information. He said that there is a caveat. He said that a sunni that knows about the imamah concept and still rejects it (which any remotely knowledgeable sunni about shias do btw) will automatically become a kafir in the hereafter because there will be no imam to back him up. So, it seemed to me that he believes that a sunni despite being a "muslim" by name in this world will have his Islam automatically taken away from him in akhira, and he will go to hellfire forever like the kuffar. In a word, "yeah, you are muslim, but will not have salvation". Well, I can't verify if this is what every such shias that say "sunnis are also muslim" believe, but that was rather intriguing. Maybe a shia here will enlighten me. But, again, like I said, there are well-founded, genuine theological reasons for me to think this maybe truly what every such shia believes in their heart. If not exactly it, then something along the lines of.

With these said, the questions I would like to ask is:

If what I learnt is true (from above), then:

1. What's the point of being a "muslim" if there is no salvation in the hereafter? You know it really doesn't matter whether you call me a "muslim" or a "kafir" if you believe I won't get salvation either way. If you guys believe that sunnis are 'temporary muslims' for namesake and classification but not in the proper sense because they will also go to hellfire like the kuffar (especially if it is someone who rejected imamah after knowing it), then isn't it sneaky of you guys to act like sunnis are muslims in the same way you guys are which you guys don't believe to be the case in heart? Just call us non-muslims upfront. Why play trick games behind the word "muslim" to baffle sunnis?

If what I was told isn't right, then:

2.  what is the point of being a shia? If someone can go to jannah as a sunni anyway, without being a shia, fully believing everything in our books and knowingly rejecting imamah, then why bother being a shia anyway? Especially in light of the fact that there are genuine deeni risks (have to accept apparent blasphemous ideas) involved in being a shia, in light of the fact that in the Quran, there is no clear mention of infallible, divinely inspired, prophet-like "leaders" of higher status who are supposed to succeed Muhammad (pbuh) [please don't bother telling me about the verse of Ibrahim (as) being promised to be made a "imam for the people" after passing trials, because I looked it up, and it OBVIOUSLY doesn't give the slightest inkling about ANY special class of infallible holy individuals to follow after Prophet (pbuh) let alone naming Ali (ra) to be one of such individuals. As far as I've read it, the plain understanding I get is: with Ibrahim (as) having been a regular prophet with little following before, Allah (SWT) after testing him, is promising to make him lead a great nation as a great prophet now (i.e., a leader for the nations/people). And, isn't it what happened? He has been one of the greatest leaders from amongst the prophets for mankind with so many people following after him. I don't see ANY link to the concept of the coming of certain group of infallible people from this verse, sorry]. So, back to what I was asking, isn't it safer to not introduce such alien concepts into Islam (one that is quite blasphemous to begin with)? Why bother listening to some alien concept of "special infallible leaders" and risk going to hell when you "genuinely" also believe that sunni Islam is a good way to go to Jannah as well anyway? Wouldn't it make more sense to take the safe approach to Islam (which according to yourselves can also give salvation anyway)?

TLDR: Tell me why I should be a shia. If you believe that sunnis are also truly muslims, and I can go to jannah by following ahlus sunnah anyway and never bothering about imamah or shi'ism, then what is the incentive to be a shia? Or, do you want to confess that you are doing taqiyyah when you say we are also muslims and you don't "really really" believe that we are "really" muslims (e.g., "muslim" but who will become kafir in the hereafter)?

Assalamu alaikum
« Last Edit: September 22, 2018, 08:05:45 AM by Equate »

Abu Muhammad

Wa 'alaikumussalam wa rahmatullah.

Welcome to the forum, brother.

There was almost a similar thread on this topic. The link as below:

http://forum.twelvershia.net/imamah-ghaybah/imamah-usul-al-din-or-usul-al-mathab/

What I can say, you are right in what you think. But that only applies to those Twelvers who take imamah as usul al-mazhab and not usul ad-deen as for those who take imamah as usul ad-deen, they will deem Sunnis as outright kaafir.

In fact, according to one Twelver brother by the username of "Zlatan Ibrahimovic", the ruling of "Sunnis are muslims in this world" is a matter of fiqh only so that they can apply the fiqh ruling for muslims to kaafir i.e. Sunnis. That's all. A matter of fact, we are still kaafir according to them.

iceman

Wa 'alaikumussalam wa rahmatullah.

Welcome to the forum, brother.

There was almost a similar thread on this topic. The link as below:

http://forum.twelvershia.net/imamah-ghaybah/imamah-usul-al-din-or-usul-al-mathab/

What I can say, you are right in what you think. But that only applies to those Twelvers who take imamah as usul al-mazhab and not usul ad-deen as for those who take imamah as usul ad-deen, they will deem Sunnis as outright kaafir.

In fact, according to one Twelver brother by the username of "Zlatan Ibrahimovic", the ruling of "Sunnis are muslims in this world" is a matter of fiqh only so that they can apply the fiqh ruling for muslims to kaafir i.e. Sunnis. That's all. A matter of fact, we are still kaafir according to them.

😊 Everyone has their own views based on their belief just as certain Sunnis do regarding Shias. Some Sunnis consider fiqha e jafferia as a school of thought just like the other four, some Sunnis consider Shias as Muslims but misguided and others consider them as down right Kafirs.  I'm sure Shias also have a right to their opinion about Sunnis. 😊 No sweat!

Abu Muhammad

😊 Everyone has their own views based on their belief just as certain Sunnis do regarding Shias. Some Sunnis consider fiqha e jafferia as a school of thought just like the other four, some Sunnis consider Shias as Muslims but misguided and others consider them as down right Kafirs.  I'm sure Shias also have a right to their opinion about Sunnis. 😊 No sweat!

Why don't you respond to the brother's question rather than paraphrasing the thing that I said.

iceman

Why don't you respond to the brother's question rather than paraphrasing the thing that I said.

Relax. Don't sweat over it. 😊

Equate

😊 Everyone has their own views based on their belief just as certain Sunnis do regarding Shias. Some Sunnis consider fiqha e jafferia as a school of thought just like the other four, some Sunnis consider Shias as Muslims but misguided and others consider them as down right Kafirs.  I'm sure Shias also have a right to their opinion about Sunnis. 😊 No sweat!

Some modern sunni scholars that say shi'ism (as in fiqha e jaffaria) are a valid school of thought in Islam are probably secular pacifists with fringe opinion (e.g. I heard of someone from al-azhar), or just someone uninformed about shia fundamentals, or someone from the extreme sufis who often try to amalgamate with shias. You can justify just about anything and bring some sunni scholar from somewhere to justify it. Can you find me any well recognized mainstream sunni schoarly opinion who consider shia jaffari school as legitimate?

wannabe

Quote
... Why play trick games behind the word "muslim" .....
this caught my attention.
let's forget for a moment this sunni-shia dispute.
there 's a quranic verse (Al-Baqarah 2:165), talking about people loving besides Allah (duuni  Allah) as they love Allah.
But the same verse specifically excluded mukminin, since the mukminin love Allah, more.
my understanding is that, muslims can be part of this group of unjust people.
what happens to these unjust people, is described further in verses Al-Baqarah 2:166-167.
in a nutshell, i believe it's the iman (faith) which will save us from hell fire.
being a muslim in this word, will make our marriage legitimate, among other things.

[Shakir 40:40] Whoever does an evil, he shall not be recompensed (with aught) but the like of it, and whoever does good, whether male or female, and he is a believer, these shall enter the garden, in which they shall be given sustenance without measure.

[Shakir 2:165] And there are some among men who take for themselves objects of worship besides Allah, whom they love as they love Allah, and those who believe are stronger in love for Allah and O, that those who are unjust had seen, when they see the chastisement, that the power is wholly Allah's and that Allah is severe in requiting (evil).

[Shakir 2:166] When those who were followed shall renounce those who followed (them), and they see the chastisement and their ties are cut asunder.
[Shakir 2:167] And those who followed shall say: Had there been for us a return, then we would renounce them as they have renounced us. Thus will Allah show them their deeds to be intense regret to them, and they shall not come forth from the fire.

thus today, be very careful from where we take our religion from. it will be lot of peace to the mind  if the ones we follow can give a guarantee they will not dissociate from us on yaumil qiaamah.

iceman

Some modern sunni scholars that say shi'ism (as in fiqha e jaffaria) are a valid school of thought in Islam are probably secular pacifists with fringe opinion (e.g. I heard of someone from al-azhar), or just someone uninformed about shia fundamentals, or someone from the extreme sufis who often try to amalgamate with shias. You can justify just about anything and bring some sunni scholar from somewhere to justify it. Can you find me any well recognized mainstream sunni schoarly opinion who consider shia jaffari school as legitimate?

"Can you find me any well recognized mainstream sunni schoarly opinion who consider shia jaffari school as legitimate?"

Who do you consider, do we have a list? Anyone I will represent is either disregarded or disowned. Or this is what is said about that particular Sunni Scholar,

"We don't believe in him" or "he is influenced by Shiaism" 😊

You people have a mindset and you go about according to that mindset. There are certain views which you believe that only Shias can hold. Having an open mind about things is something you fear from since it will move you away from your belief which you're glued to.

iceman

Some modern sunni scholars that say shi'ism (as in fiqha e jaffaria) are a valid school of thought in Islam are probably secular pacifists with fringe opinion (e.g. I heard of someone from al-azhar), or just someone uninformed about shia fundamentals, or someone from the extreme sufis who often try to amalgamate with shias. You can justify just about anything and bring some sunni scholar from somewhere to justify it. Can you find me any well recognized mainstream sunni schoarly opinion who consider shia jaffari school as legitimate?

"Can you find me any well recognized mainstream sunni schoarly opinion who consider shia jaffari school as legitimate?"

In the modern era, Sadiq al-Mahdi, the former Prime Minister of Sudan, defined the recognized schools of Muslim jurisprudence as eight specific schools.

The Amman Message, a three-point ruling issued by 200 Islamic scholars from over 50 countries, officially recognizes those eight legal schools of thought.

Hanafi (Sunni)
Maliki (Sunni)
Shafi'i (Sunni)
Hanbali (Sunni)
Ja`fari (inc. Mustaali-Taiyabi Ismaili)[35] (Shia)
Zaidiyyah (Shia)
Ibadiyyah
Zahiriyah

The AMMAN MESSAGE a three points ruling issued by 2OO ISLAMIC SCHOLARS from  over 50 COUNTRIES officially RECOGNISES those eight LEGAL schools of thought. 😊

Abu Muhammad

Assalamu alaikum, new poster here. I hope this is the right place to ask this, insh'Allah. Genuine input from a shia person here will be appreciated.

First of all, this is coming from a layman sunni guy looking at shia-sunni dialogs and debates on the internet (e.g. speaker's corner, apologists, moderate shia outlets etc.). I have seen many times that the shias interacting in shia-sunni dialogs will adamantly proclaim that they consider sunnis as "equally muslims". While much of their orthodox scholarly sources seem to pre-dominantly call sunnis kafir (or at least call our sunni doctrine kufr, or knowingly rejecting imamah kufr), the engaging shias (who seem well versed in their theology, not just ignorant laymen) in such places as speakers corner always have that "its all good, you are still muslim no matter what" attitude in an attempt to conglomerate. As a sunni, for me there are genuine reasons to be wary of such attitudes because non-life threatening taqiyyah is well a established concept within shi'ism. However, I want to set it aside for the sake of understanding (lets assume you are not doing it). Then, I would like to ask a few things to you.

I want to tell you about a personal experience. I had a chat with a shia sometime ago. And, I asked him what the shia actually think about sunnis. He said shias believe that sunnis are also muslims, and that the shias that say sunnis are kafir are extremists. Fair enough I thought. He kept saying the same thing in circles when I was trying to understand more. I was trying to tap into his mind, and as I inquired more deeply about his beliefs, he reached a boiling point and spilled a new information. He said that there is a caveat. He said that a sunni that knows about the imamah concept and still rejects it (which any remotely knowledgeable sunni about shias do btw) will automatically become a kafir in the hereafter because there will be no imam to back him up. So, it seemed to me that he believes that a sunni despite being a "muslim" by name in this world will have his Islam automatically taken away from him in akhira, and he will go to hellfire forever like the kuffar. In a word, "yeah, you are muslim, but will not have salvation". Well, I can't verify if this is what every such shias that say "sunnis are also muslim" believe, but that was rather intriguing. Maybe a shia here will enlighten me. But, again, like I said, there are well-founded, genuine theological reasons for me to think this maybe truly what every such shia believes in their heart. If not exactly it, then something along the lines of.

With these said, the questions I would like to ask is:

If what I learnt is true (from above), then:

1. What's the point of being a "muslim" if there is no salvation in the hereafter? You know it really doesn't matter whether you call me a "muslim" or a "kafir" if you believe I won't get salvation either way. If you guys believe that sunnis are 'temporary muslims' for namesake and classification but not in the proper sense because they will also go to hellfire like the kuffar (especially if it is someone who rejected imamah after knowing it), then isn't it sneaky of you guys to act like sunnis are muslims in the same way you guys are which you guys don't believe to be the case in heart? Just call us non-muslims upfront. Why play trick games behind the word "muslim" to baffle sunnis?

If what I was told isn't right, then:

2.  what is the point of being a shia? If someone can go to jannah as a sunni anyway, without being a shia, fully believing everything in our books and knowingly rejecting imamah, then why bother being a shia anyway? Especially in light of the fact that there are genuine deeni risks (have to accept apparent blasphemous ideas) involved in being a shia, in light of the fact that in the Quran, there is no clear mention of infallible, divinely inspired, prophet-like "leaders" of higher status who are supposed to succeed Muhammad (pbuh) [please don't bother telling me about the verse of Ibrahim (as) being promised to be made a "imam for the people" after passing trials, because I looked it up, and it OBVIOUSLY doesn't give the slightest inkling about ANY special class of infallible holy individuals to follow after Prophet (pbuh) let alone naming Ali (ra) to be one of such individuals. As far as I've read it, the plain understanding I get is: with Ibrahim (as) having been a regular prophet with little following before, Allah (SWT) after testing him, is promising to make him lead a great nation as a great prophet now (i.e., a leader for the nations/people). And, isn't it what happened? He has been one of the greatest leaders from amongst the prophets for mankind with so many people following after him. I don't see ANY link to the concept of the coming of certain group of infallible people from this verse, sorry]. So, back to what I was asking, isn't it safer to not introduce such alien concepts into Islam (one that is quite blasphemous to begin with)? Why bother listening to some alien concept of "special infallible leaders" and risk going to hell when you "genuinely" also believe that sunni Islam is a good way to go to Jannah as well anyway? Wouldn't it make more sense to take the safe approach to Islam (which according to yourselves can also give salvation anyway)?

TLDR: Tell me why I should be a shia. If you believe that sunnis are also truly muslims, and I can go to jannah by following ahlus sunnah anyway and never bothering about imamah or shi'ism, then what is the incentive to be a shia? Or, do you want to confess that you are doing taqiyyah when you say we are also muslims and you don't "really really" believe that we are "really" muslims (e.g., "muslim" but who will become kafir in the hereafter)?

Assalamu alaikum

Why don't you respond to the brother's question rather than paraphrasing the thing that I said.

Relax. Don't sweat over it. 😊

Still waiting for @iceman response to the very first post...

iceman

Re: What do shia apologists ACTUALLY believe about sunnis' fate in the hereafter?
« Reply #10 on: September 29, 2018, 12:49:48 PM »
Still waiting for @iceman response to the very first post...
[/quote

Ok, lets have a look.

iceman

Re: What do shia apologists ACTUALLY believe about sunnis' fate in the hereafter?
« Reply #11 on: September 29, 2018, 01:16:51 PM »
Assalamu alaikum, new poster here. I hope this is the right place to ask this, insh'Allah. Genuine input from a shia person here will be appreciated.

First of all, this is coming from a layman sunni guy looking at shia-sunni dialogs and debates on the internet (e.g. speaker's corner, apologists, moderate shia outlets etc.). I have seen many times that the shias interacting in shia-sunni dialogs will adamantly proclaim that they consider sunnis as "equally muslims". While much of their orthodox scholarly sources seem to pre-dominantly call sunnis kafir (or at least call our sunni doctrine kufr, or knowingly rejecting imamah kufr), the engaging shias (who seem well versed in their theology, not just ignorant laymen) in such places as speakers corner always have that "its all good, you are still muslim no matter what" attitude in an attempt to conglomerate. As a sunni, for me there are genuine reasons to be wary of such attitudes because non-life threatening taqiyyah is well a established concept within shi'ism. However, I want to set it aside for the sake of understanding (lets assume you are not doing it). Then, I would like to ask a few things to you.

I want to tell you about a personal experience. I had a chat with a shia sometime ago. And, I asked him what the shia actually think about sunnis. He said shias believe that sunnis are also muslims, and that the shias that say sunnis are kafir are extremists. Fair enough I thought. He kept saying the same thing in circles when I was trying to understand more. I was trying to tap into his mind, and as I inquired more deeply about his beliefs, he reached a boiling point and spilled a new information. He said that there is a caveat. He said that a sunni that knows about the imamah concept and still rejects it (which any remotely knowledgeable sunni about shias do btw) will automatically become a kafir in the hereafter because there will be no imam to back him up. So, it seemed to me that he believes that a sunni despite being a "muslim" by name in this world will have his Islam automatically taken away from him in akhira, and he will go to hellfire forever like the kuffar. In a word, "yeah, you are muslim, but will not have salvation". Well, I can't verify if this is what every such shias that say "sunnis are also muslim" believe, but that was rather intriguing. Maybe a shia here will enlighten me. But, again, like I said, there are well-founded, genuine theological reasons for me to think this maybe truly what every such shia believes in their heart. If not exactly it, then something along the lines of.

With these said, the questions I would like to ask is:

If what I learnt is true (from above), then:

1. What's the point of being a "muslim" if there is no salvation in the hereafter? You know it really doesn't matter whether you call me a "muslim" or a "kafir" if you believe I won't get salvation either way. If you guys believe that sunnis are 'temporary muslims' for namesake and classification but not in the proper sense because they will also go to hellfire like the kuffar (especially if it is someone who rejected imamah after knowing it), then isn't it sneaky of you guys to act like sunnis are muslims in the same way you guys are which you guys don't believe to be the case in heart? Just call us non-muslims upfront. Why play trick games behind the word "muslim" to baffle sunnis?

If what I was told isn't right, then:

2.  what is the point of being a shia? If someone can go to jannah as a sunni anyway, without being a shia, fully believing everything in our books and knowingly rejecting imamah, then why bother being a shia anyway? Especially in light of the fact that there are genuine deeni risks (have to accept apparent blasphemous ideas) involved in being a shia, in light of the fact that in the Quran, there is no clear mention of infallible, divinely inspired, prophet-like "leaders" of higher status who are supposed to succeed Muhammad (pbuh) [please don't bother telling me about the verse of Ibrahim (as) being promised to be made a "imam for the people" after passing trials, because I looked it up, and it OBVIOUSLY doesn't give the slightest inkling about ANY special class of infallible holy individuals to follow after Prophet (pbuh) let alone naming Ali (ra) to be one of such individuals. As far as I've read it, the plain understanding I get is: with Ibrahim (as) having been a regular prophet with little following before, Allah (SWT) after testing him, is promising to make him lead a great nation as a great prophet now (i.e., a leader for the nations/people). And, isn't it what happened? He has been one of the greatest leaders from amongst the prophets for mankind with so many people following after him. I don't see ANY link to the concept of the coming of certain group of infallible people from this verse, sorry]. So, back to what I was asking, isn't it safer to not introduce such alien concepts into Islam (one that is quite blasphemous to begin with)? Why bother listening to some alien concept of "special infallible leaders" and risk going to hell when you "genuinely" also believe that sunni Islam is a good way to go to Jannah as well anyway? Wouldn't it make more sense to take the safe approach to Islam (which according to yourselves can also give salvation anyway)?

TLDR: Tell me why I should be a shia. If you believe that sunnis are also truly muslims, and I can go to jannah by following ahlus sunnah anyway and never bothering about imamah or shi'ism, then what is the incentive to be a shia? Or, do you want to confess that you are doing taqiyyah when you say we are also muslims and you don't "really really" believe that we are "really" muslims (e.g., "muslim" but who will become kafir in the hereafter)?

Assalamu alaikum

First of all that's a very long post we have here, secondly you have made a lot of points, thirdly you have asked quite a few questions and fourthly you have put your opinion forward on a few matters which you have also stamped and sealed that you are not going to discuss them or consider otherwise.

I'm at work at the moment and will inshallah respond step by step to address every point made and answer every question asked. In return I don't want others getting involved and bringing matters in which are irrelevant which they normally do just to avoid getting in to an argument or discussion which they find difficult.
« Last Edit: September 29, 2018, 01:19:11 PM by iceman »

iceman

Re: What do shia apologists ACTUALLY believe about sunnis' fate in the hereafter?
« Reply #12 on: September 30, 2018, 01:39:47 AM »
"I have seen many times that the shias interacting in shia-sunni dialogs will adamantly proclaim that they consider sunnis as "equally muslims"

First of all what is the definition of a Muslim and Who is a Muslim? The basic and general answer to this is, a Muslim is a person who believes in the two testimonies known as the "Shahadatain".

I testify that there is no diety worthy of worship except Allah, he is only and he has no associate.

I testify that Muhammad s.a.w is his spokesman and is a Prophet of Allah.

The following two testimonies is what makes you a Muslim or how you become a Muslim if you're not a Muslim and you want to enter Islam.

Now the Sunnis do believe in the above testimonies just as we do which makes them Muslims just as much as us.

Allah is our creator as well as the Sunnis, Islam is our religion as well as the Sunnis, Muhammad s.a.w is our Messenger and we follow his Shariah just as the Sunnis, Qur'an is our book and we firmly believe in it just as the Sunnis and the Kabaa is our Qiblah as well as the Sunnis.

We will move on to the next bit inshallah

iceman

Re: What do shia apologists ACTUALLY believe about sunnis' fate in the hereafter?
« Reply #13 on: September 30, 2018, 01:57:11 AM »
"While much of their orthodox scholarly sources seem to pre-dominantly call sunnis kafir (or at least call our sunni doctrine kufr, or knowingly rejecting imamah kufr)"

When it comes to Shia Scholars or books written by them, what ever they say have said or say, write or have written is their thought, opinion and point of view based on their understanding and calculation. Exactly the same thing is with Sunni Scholars and books and the same thing applies to them and is with them.

So I wouldn't worry too much about this because we don't worry about it either. We are openly accused of either one thing or the other be it kufr, I'll faithed, having alien belief, views or concept, misguided etc. Be it you or us what matters is reality and facts and the Qur'an. Any Scholar or book, be it yours or ours, anything that goes against or collides and clashes with the Qur'an is not acceptable and shouldn't be acceptable.

We will move on inshallah.

Rationalist

Re: What do shia apologists ACTUALLY believe about sunnis' fate in the hereafter?
« Reply #14 on: September 30, 2018, 06:50:40 PM »
The most lenient view from the 12er Shia books is that Sunnis are neither Momin regardless of amal, not are they kaffir. They belong to the intermediate state, and the Imams in their books say they can enter jannah. The narration further states Zurara had a hard time accepting this. 

iceman

Re: What do shia apologists ACTUALLY believe about sunnis' fate in the hereafter?
« Reply #15 on: September 30, 2018, 08:13:56 PM »
"As a sunni, for me there are genuine reasons to be wary of such attitudes because non-life threatening taqiyyah is well a established concept within shi'ism"

I've heard a lot about people banging on about TAQEYA in Shiaism, it's often said and mentioned. What is TAQEYA to begin with? Would you mind telling me the definition and meaning? I've asked this before but no one seems to want to come down this road. I wonder why!

"He said shias believe that sunnis are also muslims, and that the shias that say sunnis are kafir are extremists. Fair enough I thought"

Ok, as you probably know that I like to discuss reality and facts. If you don't then you know now. So here we go, KAFIR and KUFR, what is the definition and meaning of KUFR? This way we can establish who actually is a KAFIR through dialogue based on education, educating ourselves.

I will proceed!
« Last Edit: September 30, 2018, 08:23:00 PM by iceman »

iceman

Re: What do shia apologists ACTUALLY believe about sunnis' fate in the hereafter?
« Reply #16 on: September 30, 2018, 08:29:06 PM »
In Islam, Taqiya or taqiyya (Arabic: تقیة‎ taqiyyah, literally "prudence, fear") is a precautionary dissimulation or denial of religious belief and practice in the face of persecution. Another term for this concept, kitmān.

Kufr refers to disbelief in Allah and His Messenger, Muhammad. In Islam, the concept of kufr has been widely discussed among Islamic scholars for centuries. In Arabic, the term kufr literally means covering or concealing something, and in a religious context, it refers to hiding or denying religious truth.

Taqiyyah, in Islam, the practice of concealing one’s belief and foregoing ordinary religious duties when under threat of death or injury. Derived from the Arabic word waqa (“to shield oneself”), taqiyyah defies easy translation. English renderings such as “precautionary dissimulation” or “prudent fear” partly convey the term’s meaning of self-protection in the face of danger to oneself or, by extension and depending upon the circumstances, to one’s fellow Muslims.

Thus, taqiyyah may be used for either the protection of an individual or the protection of a community. Moreover, it is not used or even interpreted in the same way by every sect of Islam. Taqiyyah has been employed by the Shīʿites, the largest minority sect of Islam, because of their historical persecution and political defeats not only by non-Muslims but also at the hands of the majority Sunni sect.
« Last Edit: September 30, 2018, 08:34:42 PM by iceman »

iceman

Re: What do shia apologists ACTUALLY believe about sunnis' fate in the hereafter?
« Reply #17 on: September 30, 2018, 08:51:45 PM »
Surah Ale Imran, verse 28 (3:28)

"Let not believers take disbelievers as allies rather than believers. And whoever [of you] does that has nothing with Allah, except when taking precaution against them in prudence. And Allah warns you of Himself, and to Allah is the [final] destination"

Notice the word in Arabic "tataku" has been used.  And what does the following words mean "except when taking precaution against them in prudence"?

iceman

Re: What do shia apologists ACTUALLY believe about sunnis' fate in the hereafter?
« Reply #18 on: September 30, 2018, 10:18:16 PM »
Who actually is a Muslim and what actually is Islam, from and by the Prophet s.a.w himself.


The Prophet defined the true Muslim as one who avoids harming other Muslims with his tongue (words) and hand (actions).

Abdullah bin Amr reported: The Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings be upon him, said:

الْمُسْلِمُ مَنْ سَلِمَ الْمُسْلِمُونَ مِنْ لِسَانِهِ وَيَدِهِ

The Muslim is the one from whose tongue and hand the Muslims are safe.

Source: Ṣaḥīḥ al-Bukhārī 10, Grade: Muttafaqun Alayhi

Amr ibn Absah reported: A man said, “O Messenger of Allah, what is Islam?” The Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings be upon him, said:

أَنْ تُسْلِمُ قَلْبَكَ لِلَّهِ وَيَسْلُمُ الْمُسْلِمُونَ مِنْ لِسَانِكَ وَيَدِكَ

That you surrender your heart to Allah and that the Muslims are safe from your tongue and hand.

Source: Shu’ab al-Imān 20, Grade: Sahih

iceman

Re: What do shia apologists ACTUALLY believe about sunnis' fate in the hereafter?
« Reply #19 on: September 30, 2018, 10:40:15 PM »
"He said that there is a caveat. He said that a sunni that knows about the imamah concept and still rejects it (which any remotely knowledgeable sunni about shias do btw) will automatically become a kafir in the hereafter because there will be no imam to back him up. So, it seemed to me that he believes that a sunni despite being a "muslim" by name in this world will have his Islam automatically taken away from him in akhira, and he will go to hellfire forever like the kuffar. In a word, "yeah, you are muslim, but will not have salvation". Well, I can't verify if this is what every such shias that say "sunnis are also muslim" believe, but that was rather intriguing. Maybe a shia here will enlighten me. But, again, like I said, there are well-founded, genuine theological reasons for me to think this maybe truly what every such shia believes in their heart. If not exactly it, then something along the lines of"

Lets comment on this shall we.

 

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