TwelverShia.net Forum

Who is the Shia Imam after Al-Mahdi?

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Hani

Re: Who is the Shia Imam after Al-Mahdi?
« Reply #20 on: May 09, 2016, 10:06:42 PM »

For argument's sake let's just believe when Imam Mehdi (a.s) was born everyone saw him. At the age of five he went into Ghaibah. What would deniers of Ghaibah say? They would say that at the age of five Imam Mehdi (a.s) died and Shias started telling lies that the Imam (a.s) went into Ghaibah. See no difference whether people saw him or did not would not make any difference in believing his Ghaibah.

We consider Imam Hassan Askari (a.s) and his Ahlul Bayt (a.s) reliable. If whole 8 billion people in this world says one thing and only Imam Hassan Askari (a.s) says opposite thing. We would follow the saying of Imam Hassan Askari (a.s).

Some genius atheist today claimed that the Prophet (saw) never existed, this is a weak argument that was easily refuted by the huge amount of people who saw him, the mass transmitted reports and historical documents, battles etc...

In your case, nobody saw him and there's no historical marks establishing his existence. This leaves the door wide open for everybody to deny his existence. All in all, your scholars differed on whether he was born before or after his father died, they differed on who his mother was, they differed on every single detail you can possibly think of. They said he was born secretly, they said his mother gave birth to him from her thigh due to his purity that's why she didn't seem pregnant, they claimed his father hid him from existence after his birth, they claimed he grew up in one day like a regular child grows up in one month (so he matured quickly and hid himself) etc...

Now look at the ridiculousness of the situation, your scholars agree that he fled due to being scared from the Abbasi soldiers (wielding spears) and that he shall remain in hiding until it's safe to come out. They also claimed that he doesn't have enough supporters yet, al-Mufid said he needs around three hundred supporters to appear then it'll be safe.

Common man! really!? Bro it's such an obvious lie I don't understand how you people can be fooled this easily by it.
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

Ibn Yahya

Re: Who is the Shia Imam after Al-Mahdi?
« Reply #21 on: May 09, 2016, 10:13:22 PM »
@ibn Yahya.. What was the purpose of sending Torah, Zubur and Injeel if they got corrupted as soon as the Messengers who brought them left this world?

Heavenly Books are sent to guide Humanity and Corrupted books can never guide but only misguide.

Sending Heavenly Books which gets corrupted defeats the whole purpose of them being sent to Humanity in the first place i.e. to guide Humanity

I referred to previous Holy Books by viewing our present situation. Today we have only Al-Quran for guidance and no Prophet. But what was situation after Nabi Isa (a.s) and before Prophet Mohammad (s.a.w.w) when there was no Prophet and only corrupted Gospels?

Bad comparison. The truth was and is in there as the Qur'an tells us. But no one has access to this Hujjah (your 12th imam) so your point is worthless

Ijtaba

Re: Who is the Shia Imam after Al-Mahdi?
« Reply #22 on: May 09, 2016, 10:15:21 PM »
Bro you're quoting a narration by earlier Shia sects than yours, the narration of "The world cannot be devoid of Allah's Hujjah" is one used by previous sects during the life of the Imams because they never believed in Ghaybah, evidence is that you quoted the narration without the rest:

إِنَّ الْحُجَّةَ لَا تَقُومُ لِلَّهِ عَلَى خَلْقِهِ إِلَّا بِإِمَامٍ حَتَّى يُعْرَفَ

"Allah's argument cannot be established upon His creation except through a leader so they he may teach them."

And

إِنَّ الْأَرْضَ لَا تَخْلُو إِلَّا وَ فِيهَا إِمَامٌ كَيْمَا إِنْ زَادَ الْمُؤْمِنُونَ شَيْئاً رَدَّهُمْ وَ إِنْ نَقَصُوا شَيْئاً أَتَمَّهُ لَهُمْ

"The earth will not be without a leader, so that he may correct the believers if they add (to the religion) and if they miss something he would complete it for them."

This was the earlier view of the Imami Shia before Allah exposed them and they fell into the Ghaybah problem. Therefore, today God's argument is not established and the fact that he's absent is equal to him being non-existent in function.

I was not aware of these narrations. They seem interesting. Can you provide the name of the book where I can look into these narrations.

Normally we Shias believe Imams to be Hujjat-ULLAH. I don't have any narration stating Prophets to be Hujjat-ULLAH but I myself believe Prophets also to be Hujjat-ULLAH as Nabi Ibrahim (a.s) was Hujjat-ULLAH in his time.

As I stated before I am not knowledgeable in this field and everyday I learn something new.

Ijtaba

Re: Who is the Shia Imam after Al-Mahdi?
« Reply #23 on: May 09, 2016, 10:20:50 PM »
@ibn Yahya.. What was the purpose of sending Torah, Zubur and Injeel if they got corrupted as soon as the Messengers who brought them left this world?

Heavenly Books are sent to guide Humanity and Corrupted books can never guide but only misguide.

Sending Heavenly Books which gets corrupted defeats the whole purpose of them being sent to Humanity in the first place i.e. to guide Humanity

I referred to previous Holy Books by viewing our present situation. Today we have only Al-Quran for guidance and no Prophet. But what was situation after Nabi Isa (a.s) and before Prophet Mohammad (s.a.w.w) when there was no Prophet and only corrupted Gospels?

Bad comparison. The truth was and is in there as the Qur'an tells us. But no one has access to this Hujjah (your 12th imam) so your point is worthless

So for 600 years people having no Prophet and uncorrupted book ... Tell me how were they getting guidance? Surely in our age we have Quran for guidance... But for them what was there for guidance?

Hani

Re: Who is the Shia Imam after Al-Mahdi?
« Reply #24 on: May 09, 2016, 10:24:01 PM »
I was not aware of these narrations. They seem interesting. Can you provide the name of the book where I can look into these narrations.

Normally we Shias believe Imams to be Hujjat-ULLAH. I don't have any narration stating Prophets to be Hujjat-ULLAH but I myself believe Prophets also to be Hujjat-ULLAH as Nabi Ibrahim (a.s) was Hujjat-ULLAH in his time.

As I stated before I am not knowledgeable in this field and everyday I learn something new.

I don't believe in those narrations but at least the earlier Imami view made more sense than the Imamis of today who claim that WE MUST HAVE A leader and guide BUT the man's absent so... sorry. Then they blame it on us that he's absent Haha.

As for the Prophets and Messengers, they ARE the strongest of God's many arguments:

{[We sent] messengers as bringers of good tidings and warners so that mankind will have no argument(Hujjah) against Allah after the messengers. And ever is Allah Exalted in Might and Wise.} [4:165]

The two narrations are authentic according to your scholars, both from al-Kafi.

There's other authentic ones from basa'ir al-Darajat for instance:

يعقوب السراج قال
قلت لأبي عبد الله عليه السلام تخلوا الأرض من عالم منكم حي ظاهر تفزع إليه الناس في حلالهم وحرامهم فقال يا أبا يوسف لا

I said to abu `Abdillah (as): “Would the earth be devoid from an apparent man of knowledge from among you [O household], so that the people may seek him in their issues of Halal and Haram?” He (as) replied: “O abu Yusuf, NO."

عن محمد بن مسلم عن أبي جعفر عليه السلام قال لا تبقى الأرض بغير امام ظاهر

from abu Ja`far (as) that he said: “The earth shall not remain without an apparent Imam.”

عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

Hani

Re: Who is the Shia Imam after Al-Mahdi?
« Reply #25 on: May 09, 2016, 10:29:01 PM »

So for 600 years people having no Prophet and uncorrupted book ... Tell me how were they getting guidance? Surely in our age we have Quran for guidance... But for them what was there for guidance?

We believe there was always guidance and God would not punish without warning first. The faith of `Isa (as) was still alive and not every christian believed in trinity some were Unitarians it wasn't erased but when it diminished Allah sent the remembrance.
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

Ijtaba

Re: Who is the Shia Imam after Al-Mahdi?
« Reply #26 on: May 09, 2016, 10:30:38 PM »
Some genius atheist today claimed that the Prophet (saw) never existed, this is a weak argument that was easily refuted by the huge amount of people who saw him, the mass transmitted reports and historical documents, battles etc...

In your case, nobody saw him and there's no historical marks establishing his existence. This leaves the door wide open for everybody to deny his existence. All in all, your scholars differed on whether he was born before or after his father died, they differed on who his mother was, they differed on every single detail you can possibly think of. They said he was born secretly, they said his mother gave birth to him from her thigh due to his purity that's why she didn't seem pregnant, they claimed his father hid him from existence after his birth, they claimed he grew up in one day like a regular child grows up in one month (so he matured quickly and hid himself) etc...

Now look at the ridiculousness of the situation, your scholars agree that he fled due to being scared from the Abbasi soldiers (wielding spears) and that he shall remain in hiding until it's safe to come out. They also claimed that he doesn't have enough supporters yet, al-Mufid said he needs around three hundred supporters to appear then it'll be safe.

Common man! really!? Bro it's such an obvious lie I don't understand how you people can be fooled this easily by it.

Did that genius atheist after seeing huge amount of evidence accept Prophethood of Mohammed (s.a.w.w) and become Muslim?

About conficting narrations please make a new thread on this topic citing all such narrations as I myself want to look at these narrations. I did know that there are some conflicting reports but now want to do some research on this topic.

« Last Edit: May 09, 2016, 10:32:26 PM by Ijtaba »

Hani

Re: Who is the Shia Imam after Al-Mahdi?
« Reply #27 on: May 09, 2016, 10:34:16 PM »
No, but when the argument is established he becomes a stubborn disbeliever and he is entitled for hell-fire as he didn't respect his own intellect. Matters would be different if there was no evidence yet he still insisted.

PS. I can't translate them all, I can record an audio on youtube and mention a lot of them if you wish then link you guys to it.
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

Ijtaba

Re: Who is the Shia Imam after Al-Mahdi?
« Reply #28 on: May 09, 2016, 10:48:12 PM »
No, but when the argument is established he becomes a stubborn disbeliever and he is entitled for hell-fire as he didn't respect his own intellect. Matters would be different if there was no evidence yet he still insisted.

PS. I can't translate them all, I can record an audio on youtube and mention a lot of them if you wish then link you guys to it.

Translate as much as you can. If you make an audio then do provide the link.

Ibn Yahya

Re: Who is the Shia Imam after Al-Mahdi?
« Reply #29 on: May 09, 2016, 11:52:55 PM »
@ibn Yahya.. What was the purpose of sending Torah, Zubur and Injeel if they got corrupted as soon as the Messengers who brought them left this world?

Heavenly Books are sent to guide Humanity and Corrupted books can never guide but only misguide.

Sending Heavenly Books which gets corrupted defeats the whole purpose of them being sent to Humanity in the first place i.e. to guide Humanity

I referred to previous Holy Books by viewing our present situation. Today we have only Al-Quran for guidance and no Prophet. But what was situation after Nabi Isa (a.s) and before Prophet Mohammad (s.a.w.w) when there was no Prophet and only corrupted Gospels?

Bad comparison. The truth was and is in there as the Qur'an tells us. But no one has access to this Hujjah (your 12th imam) so your point is worthless

So for 600 years people having no Prophet and uncorrupted book ... Tell me how were they getting guidance? Surely in our age we have Quran for guidance... But for them what was there for guidance?

The Tawrat and Injil were Hujjahs and contained the truth. Your Imam is a "Hujjah" but nowhere to be seen or consulted. The Tawrat and Injil served their purposes as hujjahs by providing evidence for the true deen but your Imam has not and does not provide evidence so he doesn't fulfil his purpose as a Hujjah. So his existence is useless.

Rationalist

Re: Who is the Shia Imam after Al-Mahdi?
« Reply #30 on: May 10, 2016, 01:31:00 AM »

We consider Imam Hassan Askari (a.s) and his Ahlul Bayt (a.s) reliable. If whole 8 billion people in this world says one thing and only Imam Hassan Askari (a.s) says opposite thing. We would follow the saying of Imam Hassan Askari (a.s).
So do you believe Tasfir al Askari is reliable?

Hani

Re: Who is the Shia Imam after Al-Mahdi?
« Reply #31 on: May 10, 2016, 02:26:38 AM »

Translate as much as you can. If you make an audio then do provide the link.


Here, how quick was that? Enjoy bro as translating was not easy!

http://twelvershia.net/2016/05/09/mahdi-part-2/
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

Ijtaba

Re: Who is the Shia Imam after Al-Mahdi?
« Reply #32 on: May 10, 2016, 03:18:27 PM »
Thanks Hani,

You have mentioned in the link Part 2, is there Part 1 to this video? Please give the link of Part 1 as well.. would like to watch both videos.

Re: Who is the Shia Imam after Al-Mahdi?
« Reply #33 on: May 10, 2016, 06:00:12 PM »
Thanks Hani,

You have mentioned in the link Part 2, is there Part 1 to this video? Please give the link of Part 1 as well.. would like to watch both videos.

Here is the part 1:
 http://twelvershia.net/2015/03/02/audio-book-al-imamah-wal-nass/


Hani

Re: Who is the Shia Imam after Al-Mahdi?
« Reply #34 on: May 10, 2016, 08:22:49 PM »
No part 1... Yet.

I skipped ahead in that book so I can give you the content you asked for. So I planned ahead and named it part 2.

As for part 1, it's very similar to the article I linked to at the beginning of my video. I seriously suggest you read that article very carefully either before or after you listen to the (long) clip.

Link to article
http://twelvershia.net/2015/10/30/the-shia-mahdi/
« Last Edit: May 10, 2016, 08:25:37 PM by Hani »
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

 

Related Topics

  Subject / Started by Replies Last post
1 Replies
1256 Views
Last post June 24, 2015, 05:44:47 AM
by Rationalist
3 Replies
1015 Views
Last post July 16, 2015, 03:58:40 AM
by Ibn Yahya
4 Replies
1645 Views
Last post November 02, 2015, 12:45:03 AM
by Hani
0 Replies
320 Views
Last post October 06, 2019, 05:48:34 AM
by Rationalist