TwelverShia.net Forum

Challenge to Iceman

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Noor-us-Sunnah

Re: Challenge to Iceman
« Reply #20 on: July 09, 2018, 09:15:21 AM »
Just a simple and repeated question which you gents keep dancing around time and time again just to stretch the argument so you can save yourself from owning up and making yourselves look weighty.

Capital punishment in Islam. In Islamic ruled and governed countries who decides on capital punishment based on religious issues, Allah or the ruler of the country. Lesser punishment or penalties are all decided by Allah for example in the cases such as adultry, not fasting or breaking your fast before time without due reason, killing someone accidently or unintentionally etc etc.

When it comes to the issue of Zakah who decides on what happens to those who don't pay or give Zakah. Are they subject to capital punishment by beheading. On who's orders. Who decides this, Allah or the ruler of the time. Do you give or pay Zakah. Can the ruler of the time force you to give or pay Zakah. A lot of questions but all related to the same issue and matter but somehow scares and frightens some of you.

What does 'La ikraha fid deen' mean, 'there is no compulsion within Islam" If this is not an academic and meaningful discussion then I don't know what is.

Let’s see for how long you will dodge the reports from your imam.

عَلِيُّ بْنُ إِبْرَاهِيمَ عَنْ أَبِيهِ وَ عِدَّةٌ مِنْ أَصْحَابِنَا عَنْ سَهْلِ بْنِ زِيَادٍ جَمِيعاً عَنِ ابْنِ مَحْبُوبٍ عَنِ الْعَلَاءِ بْنِ رَزِينٍ عَنْ مُحَمَّدِ بْنِ مُسْلِمٍ قَالَ سَأَلْتُ أَبَا جَعْفَرٍ ع عَنِ الْمُرْتَدِّ فَقَالَ مَنْ رَغِبَ عَنِ الْإِسْلَامِ وَ كَفَرَ بِمَا أَنْزَلَ اللَّهُ عَلَى مُحَمَّدٍ ص بَعْدَ إِسْلَامِهِ فَلَا تَوْبَةَ لَهُ وَ قَدْ وَجَبَ قَتْلُهُ وَ بَانَتْ مِنْهُ امْرَأَتُهُ وَ يُقْسَمُ مَا تَرَكَ عَلَى وُلْدِهِ

From Muhammad bin Muslim said: That I said Abaa Ja`far (عليه السلام) about the apostate (murtad). So he (عليه السلام) said: “Whoever turns away from Islaam, and disbelieves in what Allaah has revealed to the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) after being a Muslim, there is no repentance for him, and it is waajib (obligatory) to kill him, and his wife becomes a stranger to him, and his legacy be divided among his children.” Source:
1.     Al-Kulayni, Al-Kaafi, vol. 7, pg. 256, hadeeth # 1
Grading:
1.       Al-Majlisi said this hadeeth is Hasan Kal-SaHeeH (Good like an Authentic (hadeeth))
à Mir’aat Al-`Uqool, vol. 23, pg. 396



مُحَمَّدُ بْنُ يَحْيَى عَنِ الْعَمْرَكِيِّ بْنِ عَلِيٍّ النَّيْسَابُورِيِّ عَنْ عَلِيِّ بْنِ جَعْفَرٍ عَنْ أَخِيهِ أَبِي الْحَسَنِ ع قَالَ سَأَلْتُهُ عَنْ مُسْلِمٍ تَنَصَّرَ قَالَ يُقْتَلُ وَ لَا يُسْتَتَابُ قُلْتُ فَنَصْرَانِيٌّ أَسْلَمَ ثُمَّ ارْتَدَّ عَنِ الْإِسْلَامِ قَالَ يُسْتَتَابُ فَإِنْ رَجَعَ وَ إِلَّا قُتِلَ

From `Alee bin Ja`far from his brother Abee Al-Hasan (عليه السلام) said: I asked him (عليه السلام) about a Muslim who becomes a Christian. He (عليه السلام) said: “He (should be) killed, and no repentance from him” I said: “What about a Christian who becomes Muslim then Apostates from Islaam?” He (عليه السلام) said: “He is asked to repent. And if he returns (to Islaam that is okay), or otherwise he is killed”
Source:
1.     Al-Kulayni, Al-Kaafi, vol. 7, pg. 257, hadeeth # 10
Grading:
1.       Al-Majlisi said this hadeeth is Muwaththaq (Reliable)
à Mir’aat Al-`Uqool, vol. 23, pg. 400


عَنِ الْإِسْلَامِ وَ جَحَدَ مُحَمَّداً ص نُبُوَّتَهُ وَ كَذَّبَهُ فَإِنَّ دَمَهُ مُبَاحٌ لِكُلِّ مَنْ سَمِعَ ذَلِكَ مِنْهُ وَ امْرَأَتَهُ بَائِنَةٌ مِنْهُ يَوْمَ ارْتَدَّ فَلَا تَقْرَبْهُ وَ يُقْسَمُ مَالُهُ عَلَى وَرَثَتِهِ وَ تَعْتَدُّ امْرَأَتُهُ [بَعْدُ] عِدَّةَ الْمُتَوَفَّى عَنْهَا زَوْجُهَا وَ عَلَى الْإِمَامِ أَنْ يَقْتُلَهُ وَ لَا يَسْتَتِيبَهُ

From `Ammaar Al-SaabaaTee said: I hear Abaa `Abd Allaah (عليه السلام) he (عليه السلام) said: “Every Muslim amongst the Muslimeen who apostates from Islaam, and denies Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) prophecy and (call) him (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) a liar. His blood is allowed (to kill) whoever hears that from him. And his wife baa’inah (?) from the day of apostasy, and she should not go near him. And his wealth is divided amongst his heirs and his wife invokes upon herself `iddah of the death of her husband. And it is upon Imaam (leader) that he kills him, and does not ask for repentance”
Source:
1.     Al-Kulayni, Al-Kaafi, vol. 7, pg. 257-258, hadeeth # 11
Grading:
1.       Al-Majlisi said this hadeeth is SaHeeH (Authentic)
à Mir’aat Al-`Uqool, vol. 23, pg. 400



عَلِيُّ بْنُ إِبْرَاهِيمَ عَنْ أَبِيهِ عَنِ ابْنِ أَبِي عُمَيْرٍ عَنْ هِشَامِ بْنِ سَالِمٍ عَنْ أَبِي عَبْدِ اللَّهِ ع أَنَّهُ سَأَلَ عَمَّنْ شَتَمَ رَسُولَ اللَّهِ ص فَقَالَ يَقْتُلُهُ الْأَدْنَى فَالْأَدْنَى قَبْلَ أَنْ يَرْفَعَهُ إِلَى الْإِمَامِ

From Hishaam bin Saalim from Abee `Abd Allaah (عليه السلام) That he was asked about one who abuses the Messenger of Allaah (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) So he (عليه السلام) said: “He is to be killed, for the lowest of the low (rebuke) before he is taken to the Imaam”
Source:
1.     Al-Kulayni, Al-Kaafi, vol. 7, pg. 259, hadeeth # 21
Grading:
1.       Al-Majlisi said this hadeeth is Hasan (Good)
à Mir’aat Al-`Uqool, vol. 23, pg



حدثني محمد بن قولويه، قال حدثني سعد بن عبد الله، قال حدثنا يعقوب بن يزيد و محمد بن عيسى، عن ابن أبي عمير، عن هشام بن سالم، قال : سمعت أبا عبد الله (عليه السلام) يقول و هو يحدث أصحابه بحديث عبد الله بن سبإ و ما ادعى من الربوبية في أمير المؤمنين علي بن أبي طالب، فقال إنه لما ادعى ذلك فيه استتابه أمير المؤمنين (عليه السلام) فأبى أن يتوب فأحرقه بالنار.
From Hishaam bin Saalim said: I heard from Abaa `Abd  Allaah (عليه السلام)  and he said: “And he narrated from his companions the narration of `Abd  Allaah bin Sabaa’ and he called (to people) the lordship/divinity of Ameer Al-Mumineen `Alee bin Abee Taalib (عليه السلام). So he (عليه السلام) said: That Ameer Al-Mu’mineen ordered him to repent, but he refused. Then Ali let him burn in fire."
Source:
1.     Al-Kashee, Rijaal Al-Kashee, pg. 107, hadeeth # 171



عَلِيُّ بْنُ إِبْرَاهِيمَ عَنْ أَبِيهِ عَنِ ابْنِ أَبِي عُمَيْرٍ عَنْ هِشَامِ بْنِ سَالِمٍ عَنْ أَبِي عَبْدِ اللَّهِ ع قَالَ أَتَى قَوْمٌ أَمِيرَ الْمُؤْمِنِينَ ع فَقَالُوا السَّلَامُ عَلَيْكَ يَا رَبَّنَا فَاسْتَتَابَهُمْ فَلَمْ يَتُوبُوا فَحَفَرَ لَهُمْ حَفِيرَةً وَ أَوْقَدَ فِيهَا نَاراً وَ حَفَرَ حَفِيرَةً أُخْرَى إِلَى جَانِبِهَا وَ أَفْضَى مَا بَيْنَهُمَا فَلَمَّا لَمْ يَتُوبُوا أَلْقَاهُمْ فِي الْحَفِيرَةِ وَ أَوْقَدَ فِي الْحَفِيرَةِ الْأُخْرَى [نَاراً] حَتَّى مَاتُوا
A group came to Ameer Al-Mu’mineen (عليه السلام), and they said: “Assalaamu `Alayka (Peace be upon you), O our Lord (rabbanaa)! So he asked for their repentance, but they did not repent. So he dug a ditch for them and lit a fire in it and dug a ditch to its other side and conveyed between them. So when they did not repent he threw them in the ditch and lit in the other ditch until they died.
Source:
1.     Al-Kulayni, Al-Kaafi, vol. 7, pg. 258-259, hadeeth # 18
Grading:
1.       Al-Majlisi said this hadeeth is Hasan (Good)
à Mir’aat Al-`Uqool, vol. 23, pg. 401


Punishment for Intentionally Breaking Your Fast for Three Days


عَلِيُّ بْنُ إِبْرَاهِيمَ عَنْ مُحَمَّدِ بْنِ عِيسَى عَنْ يُونُسَ عَنْ أَبِي بَصِيرٍ عَنْ أَبِي عَبْدِ اللَّهِ ع قَالَ مَنْ أُخِذَ فِي شَهْرِ رَمَضَانَ وَ قَدْ أَفْطَرَ فَرُفِعَ إِلَى الْإِمَامِ يُقْتَلُ فِي الثَّالِثَةِ

“Whoever is caught in the month of RamaDaan and he is breaking (his fast), he is taken to the Imaam, and he is killed in the third (offense)”
Source:
1.     Al-Kulayni, Al-Kaafi, vol. 7, pg. 258, hadeeth # 12
Grading:
1.       Al-Majlisi said this hadeeth is Muwaththaq (Reliable)
à Mir’aat Al-`Uqool, vol. 23, pg. 401


ابْنُ مَحْبُوبٍ عَنْ هِشَامِ بْنِ سَالِمٍ عَنْ بُرَيْدٍ الْعِجْلِيِّ قَالَ سُئِلَ أَبُو جَعْفَرٍ ع عَنْ رَجُلٍ شَهِدَ عَلَيْهِ شُهُودٌ أَنَّهُ أَفْطَرَ مِنْ شَهْرِ رَمَضَانَ ثَلَاثَةَ أَيَّامٍ فَقَالَ يُسْأَلُ هَلْ عَلَيْكَ فِي إِفْطَارِكَ إِثْمٌ فَإِنْ قَالَ لَا فَإِنَّ عَلَى الْإِمَامِ أَنْ يَقْتُلَهُ وَ إِنْ هُوَ قَالَ نَعَمْ فَإِنَّ عَلَى الْإِمَامِ أَنْ يَنْهَكَهُ ضَرْباً

From Burayd Al-`Ijlee said: Aboo Ja`far (عليه السلام) was asked about a man who witnesses upon him (say) they witness that he broke (his fast) from the Month of RamaDaan three days. So he (عليه السلام) said: “Ask him: ‘Do you (belief) that breaking (your fast) is a sin?’ And if he says: “No”. It is upon the Imaam (leader) that he kills him, and if he says “Yes”, then it is upon the Imaam that he strikes him hard (?)”
Source:
1.     Al-Kulayni, Al-Kaafi, vol. 7, pg. 259, hadeeth # 20
Grading:
1.       Al-Majlisi said this hadeeth is Hasan (Good)
à Mir’aat Al-`Uqool, vol. 23, pg. 402

iceman

Re: Challenge to Iceman
« Reply #21 on: July 09, 2018, 09:40:21 PM »
Let’s see for how long you will dodge the reports from your imam.

عَلِيُّ بْنُ إِبْرَاهِيمَ عَنْ أَبِيهِ وَ عِدَّةٌ مِنْ أَصْحَابِنَا عَنْ سَهْلِ بْنِ زِيَادٍ جَمِيعاً عَنِ ابْنِ مَحْبُوبٍ عَنِ الْعَلَاءِ بْنِ رَزِينٍ عَنْ مُحَمَّدِ بْنِ مُسْلِمٍ قَالَ سَأَلْتُ أَبَا جَعْفَرٍ ع عَنِ الْمُرْتَدِّ فَقَالَ مَنْ رَغِبَ عَنِ الْإِسْلَامِ وَ كَفَرَ بِمَا أَنْزَلَ اللَّهُ عَلَى مُحَمَّدٍ ص بَعْدَ إِسْلَامِهِ فَلَا تَوْبَةَ لَهُ وَ قَدْ وَجَبَ قَتْلُهُ وَ بَانَتْ مِنْهُ امْرَأَتُهُ وَ يُقْسَمُ مَا تَرَكَ عَلَى وُلْدِهِ

From Muhammad bin Muslim said: That I said Abaa Ja`far (عليه السلام) about the apostate (murtad). So he (عليه السلام) said: “Whoever turns away from Islaam, and disbelieves in what Allaah has revealed to the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) after being a Muslim, there is no repentance for him, and it is waajib (obligatory) to kill him, and his wife becomes a stranger to him, and his legacy be divided among his children.” Source:
1.     Al-Kulayni, Al-Kaafi, vol. 7, pg. 256, hadeeth # 1
Grading:
1.       Al-Majlisi said this hadeeth is Hasan Kal-SaHeeH (Good like an Authentic (hadeeth))
à Mir’aat Al-`Uqool, vol. 23, pg. 396



مُحَمَّدُ بْنُ يَحْيَى عَنِ الْعَمْرَكِيِّ بْنِ عَلِيٍّ النَّيْسَابُورِيِّ عَنْ عَلِيِّ بْنِ جَعْفَرٍ عَنْ أَخِيهِ أَبِي الْحَسَنِ ع قَالَ سَأَلْتُهُ عَنْ مُسْلِمٍ تَنَصَّرَ قَالَ يُقْتَلُ وَ لَا يُسْتَتَابُ قُلْتُ فَنَصْرَانِيٌّ أَسْلَمَ ثُمَّ ارْتَدَّ عَنِ الْإِسْلَامِ قَالَ يُسْتَتَابُ فَإِنْ رَجَعَ وَ إِلَّا قُتِلَ

From `Alee bin Ja`far from his brother Abee Al-Hasan (عليه السلام) said: I asked him (عليه السلام) about a Muslim who becomes a Christian. He (عليه السلام) said: “He (should be) killed, and no repentance from him” I said: “What about a Christian who becomes Muslim then Apostates from Islaam?” He (عليه السلام) said: “He is asked to repent. And if he returns (to Islaam that is okay), or otherwise he is killed”
Source:
1.     Al-Kulayni, Al-Kaafi, vol. 7, pg. 257, hadeeth # 10
Grading:
1.       Al-Majlisi said this hadeeth is Muwaththaq (Reliable)
à Mir’aat Al-`Uqool, vol. 23, pg. 400


عَنِ الْإِسْلَامِ وَ جَحَدَ مُحَمَّداً ص نُبُوَّتَهُ وَ كَذَّبَهُ فَإِنَّ دَمَهُ مُبَاحٌ لِكُلِّ مَنْ سَمِعَ ذَلِكَ مِنْهُ وَ امْرَأَتَهُ بَائِنَةٌ مِنْهُ يَوْمَ ارْتَدَّ فَلَا تَقْرَبْهُ وَ يُقْسَمُ مَالُهُ عَلَى وَرَثَتِهِ وَ تَعْتَدُّ امْرَأَتُهُ [بَعْدُ] عِدَّةَ الْمُتَوَفَّى عَنْهَا زَوْجُهَا وَ عَلَى الْإِمَامِ أَنْ يَقْتُلَهُ وَ لَا يَسْتَتِيبَهُ

From `Ammaar Al-SaabaaTee said: I hear Abaa `Abd Allaah (عليه السلام) he (عليه السلام) said: “Every Muslim amongst the Muslimeen who apostates from Islaam, and denies Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) prophecy and (call) him (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) a liar. His blood is allowed (to kill) whoever hears that from him. And his wife baa’inah (?) from the day of apostasy, and she should not go near him. And his wealth is divided amongst his heirs and his wife invokes upon herself `iddah of the death of her husband. And it is upon Imaam (leader) that he kills him, and does not ask for repentance”
Source:
1.     Al-Kulayni, Al-Kaafi, vol. 7, pg. 257-258, hadeeth # 11
Grading:
1.       Al-Majlisi said this hadeeth is SaHeeH (Authentic)
à Mir’aat Al-`Uqool, vol. 23, pg. 400



عَلِيُّ بْنُ إِبْرَاهِيمَ عَنْ أَبِيهِ عَنِ ابْنِ أَبِي عُمَيْرٍ عَنْ هِشَامِ بْنِ سَالِمٍ عَنْ أَبِي عَبْدِ اللَّهِ ع أَنَّهُ سَأَلَ عَمَّنْ شَتَمَ رَسُولَ اللَّهِ ص فَقَالَ يَقْتُلُهُ الْأَدْنَى فَالْأَدْنَى قَبْلَ أَنْ يَرْفَعَهُ إِلَى الْإِمَامِ

From Hishaam bin Saalim from Abee `Abd Allaah (عليه السلام) That he was asked about one who abuses the Messenger of Allaah (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) So he (عليه السلام) said: “He is to be killed, for the lowest of the low (rebuke) before he is taken to the Imaam”
Source:
1.     Al-Kulayni, Al-Kaafi, vol. 7, pg. 259, hadeeth # 21
Grading:
1.       Al-Majlisi said this hadeeth is Hasan (Good)
à Mir’aat Al-`Uqool, vol. 23, pg



حدثني محمد بن قولويه، قال حدثني سعد بن عبد الله، قال حدثنا يعقوب بن يزيد و محمد بن عيسى، عن ابن أبي عمير، عن هشام بن سالم، قال : سمعت أبا عبد الله (عليه السلام) يقول و هو يحدث أصحابه بحديث عبد الله بن سبإ و ما ادعى من الربوبية في أمير المؤمنين علي بن أبي طالب، فقال إنه لما ادعى ذلك فيه استتابه أمير المؤمنين (عليه السلام) فأبى أن يتوب فأحرقه بالنار.
From Hishaam bin Saalim said: I heard from Abaa `Abd  Allaah (عليه السلام)  and he said: “And he narrated from his companions the narration of `Abd  Allaah bin Sabaa’ and he called (to people) the lordship/divinity of Ameer Al-Mumineen `Alee bin Abee Taalib (عليه السلام). So he (عليه السلام) said: That Ameer Al-Mu’mineen ordered him to repent, but he refused. Then Ali let him burn in fire."
Source:
1.     Al-Kashee, Rijaal Al-Kashee, pg. 107, hadeeth # 171



عَلِيُّ بْنُ إِبْرَاهِيمَ عَنْ أَبِيهِ عَنِ ابْنِ أَبِي عُمَيْرٍ عَنْ هِشَامِ بْنِ سَالِمٍ عَنْ أَبِي عَبْدِ اللَّهِ ع قَالَ أَتَى قَوْمٌ أَمِيرَ الْمُؤْمِنِينَ ع فَقَالُوا السَّلَامُ عَلَيْكَ يَا رَبَّنَا فَاسْتَتَابَهُمْ فَلَمْ يَتُوبُوا فَحَفَرَ لَهُمْ حَفِيرَةً وَ أَوْقَدَ فِيهَا نَاراً وَ حَفَرَ حَفِيرَةً أُخْرَى إِلَى جَانِبِهَا وَ أَفْضَى مَا بَيْنَهُمَا فَلَمَّا لَمْ يَتُوبُوا أَلْقَاهُمْ فِي الْحَفِيرَةِ وَ أَوْقَدَ فِي الْحَفِيرَةِ الْأُخْرَى [نَاراً] حَتَّى مَاتُوا
A group came to Ameer Al-Mu’mineen (عليه السلام), and they said: “Assalaamu `Alayka (Peace be upon you), O our Lord (rabbanaa)! So he asked for their repentance, but they did not repent. So he dug a ditch for them and lit a fire in it and dug a ditch to its other side and conveyed between them. So when they did not repent he threw them in the ditch and lit in the other ditch until they died.
Source:
1.     Al-Kulayni, Al-Kaafi, vol. 7, pg. 258-259, hadeeth # 18
Grading:
1.       Al-Majlisi said this hadeeth is Hasan (Good)
à Mir’aat Al-`Uqool, vol. 23, pg. 401


Punishment for Intentionally Breaking Your Fast for Three Days


عَلِيُّ بْنُ إِبْرَاهِيمَ عَنْ مُحَمَّدِ بْنِ عِيسَى عَنْ يُونُسَ عَنْ أَبِي بَصِيرٍ عَنْ أَبِي عَبْدِ اللَّهِ ع قَالَ مَنْ أُخِذَ فِي شَهْرِ رَمَضَانَ وَ قَدْ أَفْطَرَ فَرُفِعَ إِلَى الْإِمَامِ يُقْتَلُ فِي الثَّالِثَةِ

“Whoever is caught in the month of RamaDaan and he is breaking (his fast), he is taken to the Imaam, and he is killed in the third (offense)”
Source:
1.     Al-Kulayni, Al-Kaafi, vol. 7, pg. 258, hadeeth # 12
Grading:
1.       Al-Majlisi said this hadeeth is Muwaththaq (Reliable)
à Mir’aat Al-`Uqool, vol. 23, pg. 401


ابْنُ مَحْبُوبٍ عَنْ هِشَامِ بْنِ سَالِمٍ عَنْ بُرَيْدٍ الْعِجْلِيِّ قَالَ سُئِلَ أَبُو جَعْفَرٍ ع عَنْ رَجُلٍ شَهِدَ عَلَيْهِ شُهُودٌ أَنَّهُ أَفْطَرَ مِنْ شَهْرِ رَمَضَانَ ثَلَاثَةَ أَيَّامٍ فَقَالَ يُسْأَلُ هَلْ عَلَيْكَ فِي إِفْطَارِكَ إِثْمٌ فَإِنْ قَالَ لَا فَإِنَّ عَلَى الْإِمَامِ أَنْ يَقْتُلَهُ وَ إِنْ هُوَ قَالَ نَعَمْ فَإِنَّ عَلَى الْإِمَامِ أَنْ يَنْهَكَهُ ضَرْباً

From Burayd Al-`Ijlee said: Aboo Ja`far (عليه السلام) was asked about a man who witnesses upon him (say) they witness that he broke (his fast) from the Month of RamaDaan three days. So he (عليه السلام) said: “Ask him: ‘Do you (belief) that breaking (your fast) is a sin?’ And if he says: “No”. It is upon the Imaam (leader) that he kills him, and if he says “Yes”, then it is upon the Imaam that he strikes him hard (?)”
Source:
1.     Al-Kulayni, Al-Kaafi, vol. 7, pg. 259, hadeeth # 20
Grading:
1.       Al-Majlisi said this hadeeth is Hasan (Good)
à Mir’aat Al-`Uqool, vol. 23, pg. 402

"Let’s see for how long you will dodge the reports from your Imams"

I don't dodge anything. 'Reports from my Imams' are you exactly sure about this. You're 100% certain that these reports are accurate and exact. There are many other things in the books you've mentioned that also come from the same Imams, do you believe them to be exactly true and accurate as the reports you've mentioned.

The Ahle Sunah label some books as authentic and some as extremely authentic for example about Sahih Bukhari  it is said that this is 'SAHIH BUKHARI BAAD AZ KITHAB E BARI" despite that if I give you certain reports will you blindly accept them. Will you take them at face value. Well you should because of how you feel, say and claim about Sahih Bukhari.

Now about the reports that you've so kindly put forward, any backing from the Qur'an over Capital Punishment? Any indication from the Qur'an what so ever. Or do you seem to have a BIG PROBLEM in me asking you this.

Well I'd like to know and examine the authenticity and accuracy of these reports. Not about what the Imams said but about the reports. After all they're reports. Do you have a problem with this. What's the irritation about.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2018, 09:44:24 PM by iceman »

Hani

Re: Challenge to Iceman
« Reply #22 on: July 10, 2018, 12:35:31 AM »
Oh dear Lord haha...

Okay, and are you more qualified than al-Majlisi so you can examine the authenticity of these reports?

Why do you think he graded them as authentic?

Please give us a layout of your plan in how you will proceed to verify the authenticity of these reports.
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

iceman

Re: Challenge to Iceman
« Reply #23 on: July 10, 2018, 02:15:53 PM »
Oh dear Lord haha...

Okay, and are you more qualified than al-Majlisi so you can examine the authenticity of these reports?

Why do you think he graded them as authentic?

Please give us a layout of your plan in how you will proceed to verify the authenticity of these reports.

Hellow there, nice of you to join us. Lets put it to you then.

Malik bin Nuwayrah and his tribe were accused of not paying Zakah, he was accused of being Munkar e Zakah. Because of this he along with his tribe were accused of apostasy and was killed along with men from his tribe and community.

Now the question is if someone refuses to pay or give Zakah then can the Caliph/ruler of the thime force them. And if they refuse then are they subject to the death penalty. Just as simple as that.

Now what do we do here or should we do in a very serious and important issue and matter as this. It's not an ordinary matter,. It's absolutely obvious that we're going to refer it to the Qur'an.

According to the Ahle Sunah ruler/Caliph of the time is the Ulul Amre. Remember the Ulul Amre verse. Does it jog your memory. What are we told to by Allah himself, if we differ among ourselves on or in anything. REFER IT BACK TO ALLAH AND HIS MESSENGER. 

We're talking about can we force people to give Zakah and are they subject to capital punishment if they refuse to pay or give Zakah. Is Zakah something you give or something you have to hand over.

Now when it comes to hadiths or narrations it is said that this is Qavi and that is Za'eef  (strong and weak), or we accept this hadith or narration but we don't accept that. So the main and top source is obviously the QUR'AN. Any indication from the Qur'an regarding this matter.

This is exactly what the gents are running from. Since you've so kindly made an effort and taken out time, bismillah. Would you like to join in. Lets see if you can make a difference and move the discussion forward.

Or would you also like to accuse and abuse me, insult and humiliate me and my mother and make fun of us? Mmm!

Hani

Re: Challenge to Iceman
« Reply #24 on: July 13, 2018, 08:24:49 AM »
Duuuude how does your paragraph above answer my questions?

Please give a straightforward answer to my three direct questions above, no need to write a novel, you aint winning any awards for writing skills.


As for the wars of apostasy, `Ali participated in them as he clearly says in Nahj-ul-Balaghah:

ولا يخطر ببالي أن العرب تزعج هذا الأمر من بعده صلى الله عليه وآله عن أهل بيته، ولا أنهم منحوه عني من بعده، فما راعني إلا انثيال الناس على فلان (1) يبايعونه، فأمسكت يدي (2) حتى رأيت راجعة الناس قد رجعت عن الاسلام يدعون إلى محق دين محمد صلى الله عليه وآله، فخشيت إن لم أنصر الاسلام وأهله أن أرى فيه ثلما (3) أو هدما تكون المصيبة به علي أعظم من فوت ولايتكم التي إنما هي متاع أيام قلائل يزول منها ما كان كما يزول السراب، أو كما يتقشع السحاب، فنهضت في تلك الأحداث حتى زاح الباطل وزهق، واطمأن الدين وتنهنه

If your next post isn't an answer I may not bother reading it.
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

iceman

Re: Challenge to Iceman
« Reply #25 on: July 13, 2018, 07:58:41 PM »
Duuuude how does your paragraph above answer my questions?

Please give a straightforward answer to my three direct questions above, no need to write a novel, you aint winning any awards for writing skills.


As for the wars of apostasy, `Ali participated in them as he clearly says in Nahj-ul-Balaghah:

ولا يخطر ببالي أن العرب تزعج هذا الأمر من بعده صلى الله عليه وآله عن أهل بيته، ولا أنهم منحوه عني من بعده، فما راعني إلا انثيال الناس على فلان (1) يبايعونه، فأمسكت يدي (2) حتى رأيت راجعة الناس قد رجعت عن الاسلام يدعون إلى محق دين محمد صلى الله عليه وآله، فخشيت إن لم أنصر الاسلام وأهله أن أرى فيه ثلما (3) أو هدما تكون المصيبة به علي أعظم من فوت ولايتكم التي إنما هي متاع أيام قلائل يزول منها ما كان كما يزول السراب، أو كما يتقشع السحاب، فنهضت في تلك الأحداث حتى زاح الباطل وزهق، واطمأن الدين وتنهنه

If your next post isn't an answer I may not bother reading it.

Subhanallah, if this is the attitude and behaviour of mods/admins then what can one expect from the common folk on this site. You turn up out of the blue and all of a sudden you expect and demand. Wow. You've forgotten that I'm a SHIA so awards, merits or anything as such is absolutely out of the question. I don't expect you to answer, address or touch on anything I say because I know you need to keep yourself safe and secure just like the others. I know by now what you guys need to avoid and stay clear of because you'll get stuck.

Now lets play it your way. How does this sound, STRAIGHTFORWARD answer to your THREE DIRECT QUESTIONS is coming up next. HAPPY?

Thanks for joining us. Stay tuned.

iceman

Re: Challenge to Iceman
« Reply #26 on: July 13, 2018, 08:36:17 PM »
:As for the wars of apostasy, `Ali participated in them as he clearly says in Nahj-ul-Balaghah:

ولا يخطر ببالي أن العرب تزعج هذا الأمر من بعده صلى الله عليه وآله عن أهل بيته، ولا أنهم منحوه عني من بعده، فما راعني إلا انثيال الناس على فلان (1) يبايعونه، فأمسكت يدي (2) حتى رأيت راجعة الناس قد رجعت عن الاسلام يدعون إلى محق دين محمد صلى الله عليه وآله، فخشيت إن لم أنصر الاسلام وأهله أن أرى فيه ثلما (3) أو هدما تكون المصيبة به علي أعظم من فوت ولايتكم التي إنما هي متاع أيام قلائل يزول منها ما كان كما يزول السراب، أو كما يتقشع السحاب، فنهضت في تلك الأحداث حتى زاح الباطل وزهق، واطمأن الدين وتنهنه"

A very straightforward answer. We're not talking about the wars of apostasy. In fact we ain't talking about any war at all. Please read and look into what is being discussed and why rather than just jumping in blindly without any indication and thought.

I'll still comment on what you've said.

iceman

Re: Challenge to Iceman
« Reply #27 on: July 13, 2018, 10:44:07 PM »
Oh dear Lord haha...

Okay, and are you more qualified than al-Majlisi so you can examine the authenticity of these reports?

Why do you think he graded them as authentic?

Please give us a layout of your plan in how you will proceed to verify the authenticity of these reports.

And here is a very STRAIGHTFORWARD answer to your three questions.

First question,

"Okay, and are you more qualified than al-Majlisi so you can examine the authenticity of these reports?"

First answer,

Does this mean I have to accept and take everything Al Majlisi says at face value? Do you do the same when it comes to your scholars about every single thing I put forward?

Second question,

"Why do you think he graded them as authentic?"

Second answer,

Who questioned their authenticity?

Third question,

"Please give us a layout of your plan in how you will proceed to verify the authenticity of these reports.

Third answer,

Let me break it down to you all together, the reports that were put forward lets accept them and their authenticity, now would you tell me according to those reports was that the decision of the Caliph based on administration and governance or was it action taken based on Shariah law?

muslim720

Re: Challenge to Iceman
« Reply #28 on: July 14, 2018, 06:57:42 AM »
Three straight-forward "answers", each ending with a question mark!  I don't blame Iceman.  It is a direct consequence of the type of debate stories narrated in Shi'i mosques.  Fulaan genius debater posed a question and the opponents' arguments perished.  In other words, answer questions by posing questions. 

If only they realized their foolishness; they have to see the ones they inspire get embarrassed over and over again using their tactic.
"Our coward ran from those in authority" - Iceman (admitting the truth regarding his 12th Imam)

iceman

Re: Challenge to Iceman
« Reply #29 on: July 20, 2018, 02:36:32 PM »
Those who have the ability to discuss and debate don't look for excuses like you. They engage and move the discussion forward with positive and constructive contribution.

You lot come up with excuses either to halt the conversation or to derail it just to prevent yourselves from getting stuck because you don't really have anything.

You have and adapt the nature and policy to just accuse and abuse. Hit and run is your stance.

Hani

Re: Challenge to Iceman
« Reply #30 on: July 21, 2018, 06:45:40 AM »
Man you're looking stupid now iceboy, if a "straightforward" answer to a question is with another question then you're a bigger dumbass than I thought.

When your Imams ordered people to be put to death, is it Shari`ah law or not? Of course the answer in your Ja`fari religion is that it's Shari`ah law since the Imam is a spokesman of God.
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

iceman

Re: Challenge to Iceman
« Reply #31 on: July 21, 2018, 06:32:54 PM »
Man you're looking stupid now iceboy, if a "straightforward" answer to a question is with another question then you're a bigger dumbass than I thought.

When your Imams ordered people to be put to death, is it Shari`ah law or not? Of course the answer in your Ja`fari religion is that it's Shari`ah law since the Imam is a spokesman of God.

"Man you're looking stupid now iceboy, if a "straightforward" answer to a question is with another question then you're a bigger DUMBASS than I thought"

😀 I can give you a beautiful response along with what ever else has been said to and about me. But I would just love to keep and maintain the difference.

And I can guarantee you that you aint a DUMBASS. So what are you running from? A hotshot of your calibre and status shouldn't be hesitant and shy. What are you afraid of?

"When your Imams ordered people to be put to death, is it Shari`ah law or not?"

Why don't you tell me hotshot. Did they order people to be executed, and if they did then what was the nature and reason. That's what we need to look at. What you've got within islamic history and what ever has been written and said needs to be examined.

Why are you so afraid of a broader discussion as such. Am I killing you boys with such a discussion and stance? By looking at your behaviours and response, it seems like I am.

zaid_ibn_ali

Re: Challenge to Iceman
« Reply #32 on: July 21, 2018, 07:23:54 PM »
what is anyone meant to reply to? you change to ten new questions every post.
you’re just a troll or plain stupid or both.


iceman

Re: Challenge to Iceman
« Reply #33 on: July 22, 2018, 01:22:45 AM »
what is anyone meant to reply to? you change to ten new questions every post.
you’re just a troll or plain stupid or both.

Still desperately struggling 😀

iceman

Re: Challenge to Iceman
« Reply #34 on: July 22, 2018, 01:37:40 AM »
what is anyone meant to reply to? you change to ten new questions every post.
you’re just a troll or plain stupid or both.

😊 I've been asking the same question over and over and over again. So I don't know where the ten new questions came in from.

Can any Caliph/ruler employ people to collect Zakah and then get those employees to force people to give Zakah and if they refuse then order their beheading?

Where do you see the ten new questions? 😀

 

Related Topics

  Subject / Started by Replies Last post
22 Replies
1891 Views
Last post August 11, 2017, 11:32:54 PM
by Pearl
121 Replies
7223 Views
Last post October 08, 2017, 05:13:24 PM
by wannabe
21 Replies
1694 Views
Last post December 24, 2019, 09:50:11 PM
by iceman
122 Replies
3330 Views
Last post August 02, 2019, 03:53:21 PM
by muslim720