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Debate On Tahrif Al-Quran Between Shia & Sunni

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Hani

Debate On Tahrif Al-Quran Between Shia & Sunni
« on: July 26, 2014, 10:16:40 PM »
Our brother on ShiaChat has posted a challenge by one of our members "who represents us", brother Farid asked to debate concerning the topic of the completeness of the Qur'an in the Sunni and Shia Madhabs.


Here is the link:
http://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/235024160-debate-on-tahrif-al-quran-between-shia-sunni/


Our challenge is for any Admin/Moderator or popular respectable member from the ShiaChat forums to come and debate us regarding the mentioned topic, registration will be easy and their stay here will be facilitated InshaAllah.


We're awaiting a response from the ShiaChat side, We urge them: Please do not post any nonsense and do not make any useless participation such as the one done by "Ibn al-Shahid" whose reply is of no use to anyone.


We will post the simple logical rules for the debate once we get a serious response.
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

Hani

Re: Debate On Tahrif Al-Quran Between Shia & Sunni
« Reply #1 on: July 26, 2014, 10:55:40 PM »
@PureEthics,


Please brother, we are not here to watch youtube videos of turbaned Imami lecturers, we know that Imamiyyah have articles which they translated from al-Khu'i's book regarding his beliefs concerning the Qur'an.


Brother Farid believes that the stronger opinion in Imami Tashayyu` states that the Qur'an is actually distorted, and that the majority of Imamiyyah today follow a weaker opinion opposing what was written in their early Hadithi sources.



عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

Hani

Re: Debate On Tahrif Al-Quran Between Shia & Sunni
« Reply #2 on: July 26, 2014, 11:39:29 PM »
I see brother PureEthics is showing some enthusiasm, if the Shiachatters are okay with him representing them then I see him as a good candidate for discussion?
« Last Edit: July 27, 2014, 02:49:05 AM by Hani »
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

Hani

Re: Debate On Tahrif Al-Quran Between Shia & Sunni
« Reply #3 on: July 27, 2014, 02:48:31 AM »
@kbsquare,


Don't wonder, I personally don't follow shiachat at all, and Farid asked for the debate only because he was reading related books a couple of months ago and we recently published an article on authentic Shia narrations declaring Tahreef.


so don't wonder.
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

Hani

Re: Debate On Tahrif Al-Quran Between Shia & Sunni
« Reply #4 on: July 27, 2014, 04:00:13 AM »
@.equilibrium.


No one reported to anyone nor do we have any slaves on SC spying on your awesome threads nor is anyone the master of anyone else... please, we understand you guys are Imamiyyah but try to keep your conspiracy theories from getting the better of you at this moment.


Now we have a brother called "Ali.20", he also like his brother above seemed enthusiastic and posted a big paragraph, but when asked to debate suddenly he says "I am not a representative of all the Shia and don't want to be" and then he says "I also have a life and not always on the computer".


SubhanAllah the two sentences above speak volumes,


Well please endorse someone for us from your forum who "represents all Shia", since you claimed we're ignorant and incapable, it should be easy to debate a single "Nasibi" who "proved his ignorance".


Farid invited you guys to debate here, why refuse and claim that you only debate on ShiaChat? Is it safety in numbers?


Come debate here, one on one, like a god-fearing man and enough excuses, if you don't like it, someone else better than you will step up, it's not the end of the world bro.

As for Ali.20's accusation that Farid is plagiarizing from Arabic forums and translating, this is incorrect, he was the one who wrote it in Arabic on BahrainForums in the first place.

Allah says:

{O you who have believed, if there comes to you a disobedient one with information, investigate, lest you harm a people out of ignorance and become, over what you have done, regretful.}
« Last Edit: July 27, 2014, 04:33:29 AM by Hani »
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

Hani

Re: Debate On Tahrif Al-Quran Between Shia & Sunni
« Reply #5 on: July 27, 2014, 04:13:02 AM »
Shia member .equilibrium.'s excuse for not debating is as follows:


Quote
It's fruitless debating "convinced sunnis". If you're willing to downplay major events such as ghadeer khumm, multiple declerations of ahadith such as manzilah, thaqalayn, the relationship of ayat tatheer and hadith al Kisa, verse 5:55 of wilayah, among others, then you're obviously not debating for the sake of truth, so why bother, it's an exercise in futility.


In other words, it's fruitless debating anyone who isn't Shia, only when we become Shia will Mr..equilibrium. debate us.


You want to debate non-convinced Sunnies? Is it preferable if you debate unqualified Sunnies with shaky beliefs who can't refute your arguments?


We know we're debating "convinced Shias" yet we know it's not fruitless, for exposing the weakness of Imami beliefs will only lead to more people guided to the correct path of truth.

« Last Edit: July 29, 2014, 03:45:17 PM by TS »
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

Hani

Re: Debate On Tahrif Al-Quran Between Shia & Sunni
« Reply #6 on: July 27, 2014, 04:16:10 AM »
Shia member kbsquare's excuse for not debating is as follows:


Quote
"Palestinians are still dying...do something useful, find a Zionist forum and hold a debate with them"


I just want to show the readers how many excuses we'll get from them just in order to waste time and not have a serious discussion.


ShiaChatters are invited to this debate, it's rude to turn away an invitation, it's only etiquette.
« Last Edit: July 29, 2014, 03:45:32 PM by TS »
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

Hani

Re: Debate On Tahrif Al-Quran Between Shia & Sunni
« Reply #7 on: July 27, 2014, 04:24:39 AM »
Shia member PureEthics is too fearful, he claims this is a "game" he says:


Quote
Look at this game they are trying to set up. It is truly laughable. It is nothing but trying to "debate" and find faults and then pose them against the shia as a whole.


Which pretty much means he's afraid we'd make them look bad, so he refuses the debate and calls it a game.


We're only asking for a Shia who actually represents Shias, is this too hard to find on shiachat? or do you not have confidence that the Shia representing you will do well, so instead you say:


Quote
It is nothing but trying to "debate" and find faults and then pose them against the shia as a whole. Not to learn, not to understand each other, not to defend against false accusations, but to be cheap and attack the credibility of a group as a whole.
« Last Edit: July 29, 2014, 03:46:06 PM by TS »
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

Hani

Re: Debate On Tahrif Al-Quran Between Shia & Sunni
« Reply #8 on: July 27, 2014, 04:38:43 AM »
@Ali.20


You said:


Quote
Please ignore the Nasibi who is trying to hide in his cave. He found out that he was doomed to be refuted and thus only finishes his anger by saying I would not debate with him. As he might not know it, I am not even 20 years old nor did I ever enroll in an Islamic school or Hawzah. On the other side, he is a sheikh and has multiple accounts on many networks, even an Arabic one on Ahlal Hadith. And plagiarizes from that website along with IslamPort and BahrainForums.


Yes we can tell you're below twenty don't worry, with time you'll mature and become good enough for such debates.


As for the plagiarism issue, we responded in reply#4, check the bottom of it for your response. As for the Farid being a "Shaykh" he's far from it, we're all laypeople on here.


As for the cave business, unlike a certain someone our cave is public, you have been invited to enter and debate as are all your comrades, don't be shy and say we're cowering, the one who's cowering is the one who is scared to enter the "cave".

You finally said:

Quote
Let him refute my paragraph first, not be a derpy kitten.

We're not here to refute random paragraphs from random folks, we've been refuting all your websites on "twelvershia.net" if you haven't noticed and we don't need to bother with a random post in a thread.

We are here to start a respectable, presentable, up to standards academic debate, if you want to participate and accept the challenge, you're welcome.
« Last Edit: July 29, 2014, 03:46:33 PM by TS »
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

Farid

Re: Debate On Tahrif Al-Quran Between Shia & Sunni
« Reply #9 on: July 27, 2014, 04:43:53 AM »
@ Brother Ali.20:

Accusations like plagiarism should not be made.

The Bahrainforums post that you are referring to is based upon a research by myself. Refer to the last post:

https://bahrainforums.com/vb/%CD%E6%C7%D1-%C7%E1%C7%CF%ED%C7%E4-%E6%C7%E1%E3%D0%C7%E5%C8/1022300.htm

Farid

Re: Debate On Tahrif Al-Quran Between Shia & Sunni
« Reply #10 on: July 27, 2014, 04:54:08 AM »
@ Brother Ali.20:

Mashallah, since you have done so well with providing answers to the arguments regarding authentic tahreef narrations, then you have most of your work covered. You should step up since you seem so confident.

@ PureEthics:

The reason why an endorsement is required is simply so that Shiachatters wouldn't call the debate fake like they did several years ago with Walid. It was only around a day or two after the debate started when several Shiachatters announced that he is not a Shi'ee in the first place and that the debate was staged.

Nobody is suggesting that Tashayyu is wrong if a Shi'ee loses a debate. A debate is wanted simply because this discussion and the coming together of ideas and arguments will make matters clearer for objective readers.

Hani

Re: Debate On Tahrif Al-Quran Between Shia & Sunni
« Reply #11 on: July 27, 2014, 12:25:48 PM »
Note: In the video of "Sayyid Husayn al-Qazwini" in which he discusses his father's beliefs and says he doesn't believe in Tahreef, this is an obvious lie to anyone who understands Arabic, there are two or more clips of Murtada al-Qazwini in which he clearly shows that he believes in Tahreef.


But who cares, we're still waiting for an Imami with courage and knowledge and respect, to come forth and debate with our brother one on one, so we can see the truth from the falsehood and so that the people will benefit.
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

MuslimK

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Re: Debate On Tahrif Al-Quran Between Shia & Sunni
« Reply #12 on: July 27, 2014, 06:20:44 PM »
They sound like little kids
در خلافت میل نیست ای بی‌خبر
میل کی آید ز بوبکر و عمر
میل اگر بودی در آن دو مقتدا
هر دو کردندی پسر را پیشوا

عطار نِیشابوری

www.Nahjul-Balagha.net | www.TwelverShia.net | www.ghadirkhumm.com

RationalDeen

Re: Debate On Tahrif Al-Quran Between Shia & Sunni
« Reply #13 on: July 27, 2014, 08:19:57 PM »
They banned me for a day in the other thread  ;D

Hani

Re: Debate On Tahrif Al-Quran Between Shia & Sunni
« Reply #14 on: July 27, 2014, 10:45:26 PM »
May Allah help us, we're trying to be patient and polite as opposed to the other side who've badly insulted our members more than once. We will wait and try to remind them every once in a while, maybe a qualified respectable member "who has time" would step up, so we can benefit from his knowledge.


For now we insist the official debate takes place here, this is an invitation, they can accept it or reject it as they please, we've already heard all sorts of excuses.


We hope the "bigger" names on ShiaChat will accept a simple, respectable debate so we can reach the truth, we've heard a lot of them boast throughout the years about their superiority and knowledge, yet when it comes down to it, suddenly we don't hear their voices although we know they've seen the thread.


InshaAllah Khayrun,
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

Samynet

Re: Debate On Tahrif Al-Quran Between Shia & Sunni
« Reply #15 on: July 28, 2014, 04:30:30 AM »
@Hani
@Farid
Trust me there is no difference in the Quran of Shiites and Sunnis and according to Shiites Quran is the Saqal e Akbar. There are some week narrations against Quran Tehrif from Sunnis and Shiites both sides and which are mostly not authentic and rejected by most of the Scholars from both sides.
SO BE UNITED or we will become like Iraq and Palestine very soon.

Samynet

Re: Debate On Tahrif Al-Quran Between Shia & Sunni
« Reply #16 on: July 28, 2014, 04:32:08 AM »
@hani
@farid
Guys unfortunately I have to say our enemy Jews and Christians must be very happy when they find us fighting over history, and ALLAH must be v unhappy....
Which results nothing but a bigger conflicts and divide us more. And the state like Israel, USA and EU kills innocent in Palestine and Iraq and we kept fighting each other on this history.
Guys instead of working on Differences can we work on Similarities which Muslims are facing.
First similarity 1. We have same enemy which are using so called Muslim tools like ISIS and ISIL who are acting totally against Islamic lessons...
CAN WE BE UNITED!! PLEASE!!!

Kalaam

Re: Debate On Tahrif Al-Quran Between Shia & Sunni
« Reply #17 on: July 28, 2014, 05:22:07 AM »
The Satan is more happy when he looks at the Shias spewing hatred against Sahaba.

Hani

Re: Debate On Tahrif Al-Quran Between Shia & Sunni
« Reply #18 on: July 29, 2014, 02:35:31 AM »
@Samynet,


Seriously, you came here just to give us a political lecture? We may co-exist peacefully with the Rafidhah if they stop spewing nonsense and leave Fitnah, but unity with them is impossible, we only unite with moderate Shia which are barely a small minority of the Imamiyyah alive today.
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

Hani

Re: Debate On Tahrif Al-Quran Between Shia & Sunni
« Reply #19 on: July 29, 2014, 02:39:18 AM »
There's a Shia member on SC his name is TheIslamHistory


Instead of accepting the debate respectfully, like an academic seeking truth, instead he started commenting on the banner of our forum and the graphic design, check it out:


Quote
When we go on the so called website, we see the logo of "Allah" of the Iranian flag. I ask you, do you and your group that you affiliate your self with, have any form of manners? do you still embed in your mind, that Iran and its leader are all disbelievers? Do you think by posting such, you call your self rational? I doubt that what you read about us, you surely do not read twice, as long as it supports your views that your desire with your majority.


Common bro, leave the logos and colors and Iranian propaganda, and come discuss Tahreef with us here, no one will eat you.

Then you say:
Quote
Instead of making such accusations, why not ask them to take down the Iranian Icon?

Why? are you ashamed of the Iranian icon? You here to answer our challenge or discuss the images and color themes of the forum?
« Last Edit: July 29, 2014, 02:45:06 PM by TS »
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

 

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Last post June 18, 2017, 11:42:38 PM
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by Link