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Debate On Tahrif Al-Quran Between Shia & Sunni

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Mythbuster1

Re: Debate On Tahrif Al-Quran Between Shia & Sunni
« Reply #120 on: January 06, 2015, 05:43:09 PM »
Just adding my two cents.......

As far as we know Umar ra knew it was abrogated, but what planet is silent killer on, Saying Umar ra never knew it was abrogated?

Hajar Al Asqalani says in his commentary on Saheeh Bukhari...
                                                                                                       

 

Umar said: "When this verse came down I approached the Prophet peace be upon him so I asked him: Should I write it down?' It is as if he hated that" Then Umar said: "Cant you see that if the old man if he commits adultery he does not get the whip, and that if the young man if he commits adultery he gets stoned?" (Ibn Hajar Al Asqalani, Fathul Bari, Kitab: Al Hudood, Bab: Al I'tiraaf bil Zina, Commentary on Hadith no. 6327, Source)

 

 

Here we clearly see that the Prophet (peace be upon him) did not want the verse to be written down because it was never meant to be part of the text of the Quran. The scholars of Islam are unanimous that the recitation of this verse has been abrogated but its ruling still remains in effect.

However, the only reason why Umar got emotional and wanted to put the verse in the Quran was because he was afraid that one day people would think that its ruling had been cancelled. However, the companions did not allow him to because they all knew that its recitation had been abrogated. In order to put a verse in the Quran there needed to be two witnesses and Umar was all by himself. Umar himself knew that its RECITATION WAS ABROGATEDbut he was getting emotional, for he feared that people in the future would not believe in the ruling of stoning the adulterers.
 

Imam ibn Hajar Al Asqalani has in his commentary...


 

In the verse whose recitation has been abrogated but its ruling remained, and it has happened what Umar feared. A tribe from the Khawarij or most of them and some of the Mu'tazilites rejected the stoning.
                                 


 

And it was reported by Abd al Razzaq and Al Tabari from another view that Ibn Abbas said that Umar said "There will come a people that will lie (or disbelieve) in the stoning" (Ibn Hajar Al Asqalani, Fathul Bari, Kitab: Al Hudood, Bab: Rajam Al Hublah min Zana Eezha Ahsanat, Commentary on Hadith no. 6328, Source) 

 

 

Imam Nawawi says in his commentary in Saheeh Muslim...

                                                                                                                       
Muhammad Shams al-Haqq al-Adhim Abadi, Awn al-Mabud Sharh Sunan Abu Dawud, Kitab: Al Hudood, Bab: Fil Rajam, Commentary on Hadith no. 3835, Source)
 
                                   

 

And the companions of the Prophet abandoning the writing of this verse is clear evidence that the abrogated should not be written in the Quran and that Umar's statement about the stoning as he is on the pulpit and the silence of the companions and other than them from who were present from opposing him is evidence about the ruling of the stoning (still being implemented) (Imam Nawawi, Sharh Saheeh Muslim, Kitab: Al Hudood, Bab: Rajam Al Thayb fil Zina, Commentary on Hadith no. 3201, Source)

 

 

Al Sindi says in his commentary on Sunan Ibn Majah...

 
                                                                                               

The verse of stoning: Its recitation has been abrogated and its ruling still remains in effect. (Al Sindi, Sharh Sunan Ibn Majah, Kitab: Al Hudood, Bab: Al Rajam, Commentary on Hadith no. 2543, Source)

 

 

Muhammad Shams al-Haqq al-Adhim Abadi says in his commentary on Sunan Abu Dawud...

                                                                                                                         

 

And this is whose recitation has been abrogated but ruling remains in effect. (Muhammad Shams al-Haqq al-Adhim Abadi, Awn al-Mabud Sharh Sunan Abu Dawud, Kitab: Al Hudood, Bab: Fil Rajam, Commentary on Hadith no. 3835, Source)

 



We can clearly see that there was a consensus amongst the companions of the Prophet (peace be upon him) and the scholars that the recitation of the verse on stoning was abrogated and that they did not corrupt it. How can all the companions of the Prophet (peace be upon him) who sacrificed everything they had for this religion just happen to decide to come together and purposely corrupt the Quran by removing this verse? What motive would they have in doing so if its law was to remain being implemented? So there can't be a motive to remove this verse simply because they wished to not follow its ruling since the ruling still remains in effect up to this day.
So clearly the evidence shows that this recitation was always meant to be abrogated while its ruling remains in effect.


And ALLAH SWT knows best

 

Hani

Re: Debate On Tahrif Al-Quran Between Shia & Sunni
« Reply #121 on: January 06, 2015, 05:55:43 PM »
hahaahahahah dear advocate of umar ibn khtab show your posts in ahlsunnah madrassas and come with your real identity u 3rd class coward hiding in burqa lolz.




Based on your continued rudeness and ill-manners and based on the private messages you kept sending brother Taha who was polite to you, we will ban you according to the rules and we hope InshaAllah that thisw decision is not an act of oppression.








If there's one thing you proved during your stay, is that you act like a troll who hasn't researched a matter but wishes to make Takfeer on people no matter what. Your stay is not welcome.
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

Optimus Prime

Re: Debate On Tahrif Al-Quran Between Shia & Sunni
« Reply #122 on: January 06, 2015, 06:36:11 PM »


His bottle of taqiyahbiotics has ran out and can no longer find the strength to restrain himself and has now let fire by going on a lanatin'n spree.  ;D
« Last Edit: January 06, 2015, 06:37:52 PM by Hani »

adnan42

Re: Debate On Tahrif Al-Quran Between Shia & Sunni
« Reply #123 on: January 06, 2015, 06:59:49 PM »
In what sense writing abrogated verse in mushaf is haram. Is there any hadith or proof on that?

Hani

Re: Debate On Tahrif Al-Quran Between Shia & Sunni
« Reply #124 on: January 06, 2015, 07:24:03 PM »
In what sense writing abrogated verse in mushaf is haram. Is there any hadith or proof on that?


I'm still researching this, so far what I can say is that I personally believe:


Writing an abrogated verse before the Mushaf of `Uthman was spread and agreed upon by the Sahabah is not Haraam nor forbidden unless the Prophet (saw) himself said to not write it. In our case he (saw) never said anything but appears to have shown dislike, thus the verse of Rajm was never written at any point in a Mushaf, not that it was written but then removed, it was never written in the first place.


The Sahabah had abrogated verses written in their Masaahif, even the Qur'an we have today has abrogated verses in it as is shown in many narrations, the ruling of these verses is cancelled but the Rasm remained. `Umar it seems was arguing that they were not told by the Prophet (saw) to keep this verse out of the Qur'an, yet many others would not have accepted this simply because they also were not told to put it in the Qur'an, which means it was abrogated. `Umar also feared that the people would reject Allah's law of stoning so he considered having the verse written. In fact a lot of Qur'an went with our Prophet (saw) because he never ordered for it to be written, they would recite it but never write it down in the Qur'anic body, Ayat-ul-Rajm is an example of this, Surat-ul-Ahzab I think had a lot of such verses.


Adding a verse of Qur'an to the Qur'an is not Tahreef, both come from Allah although two narrations from what I know show that `Umar wanted to write al-Rajm on the side and not as a part of the Qur'anic text.


For now, all I can say is, adding a verse to the Qur'an after it was made into book form and after its text was agreed upon by the Sahabah is Haraam because the opinion of one individual cannot cancel the consensus of Sahabah even if this individual was well versed such as ibn Ms`oud.
« Last Edit: January 06, 2015, 09:42:08 PM by Hani »
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

adnan42

Re: Debate On Tahrif Al-Quran Between Shia & Sunni
« Reply #125 on: January 06, 2015, 10:58:57 PM »
What is this haram aqeedah and halal aqeedah terminology?

Hani

Re: Debate On Tahrif Al-Quran Between Shia & Sunni
« Reply #126 on: January 06, 2015, 11:02:55 PM »
What is this haram aqeedah and halal aqeedah terminology?


You have to decipher silentkiller's writing, a hard task. I don't understand what he writes word for word I only get the general meaning of what he's trying to say.


Anyways, any further questions have to go to Farid, I'm not qualified to answer advanced questions related to Qur'anic compilation as I haven't finished my research or reached my conclusions.
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

adnan42

Re: Debate On Tahrif Al-Quran Between Shia & Sunni
« Reply #127 on: January 13, 2015, 08:01:49 AM »
Did Caliph Umar actually think some verse was missing?
Most certainly Caliph Umar knew well and understood that the particular words 'When a married man or woman commit adultery, stone them (to death)'are not meant to be the part of the actual text of the Holy Quran. This is clear from another tradition in which he said:

"Had it not been that people would say Umar has made an addition to the Book of Allah, I would have written it on the margin of the Quran."(Musnad Ahmad Hadith 151. Ahmad Shakir classified it as Sahih)
And according to the wording in Sunan Nasai Al-Kubra Hadith 7151 , he said 'I would have written and appended it to the Quran.'

Now idea of writing at the margin of the Quran or adding as an appendix clearly shows that he only meant to add it as side note or commentary to the Quran to tell the future generations explicitly about the punishment of stoning whom he feared rejecting this commandment and going astray

 

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