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Dozener Imamate Contradicts This Verse

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Rationalist

Dozener Imamate Contradicts This Verse
« on: February 03, 2015, 05:59:54 AM »
To the 12ers who believe in Imamate the powers Imamate comes with, how would you interpret this verse ?

قُلْ لَا أَمْلِكُ لِنَفْسِي نَفْعًا وَلَا ضَرًّا إِلَّا مَا شَاءَ اللَّهُ ۚ وَلَوْ كُنْتُ أَعْلَمُ الْغَيْبَ لَاسْتَكْثَرْتُ مِنَ الْخَيْرِ وَمَا مَسَّنِيَ السُّوءُ ۚ إِنْ أَنَا إِلَّا نَذِيرٌ وَبَشِيرٌ لِقَوْمٍ يُؤْمِنُونَ {188}
[Pickthal 7:188] Say: For myself I have no power to benefit, nor power to hurt, save that which Allah willeth. Had I knowledge of the Unseen, I should have abundance of wealth, and adversity would not touch me. I am but a warner, and a bearer of good tidings unto folk who believe.



Of course, in the mainstream view we are told that Imamate is superior to all Prophets except the seal of Prophethood. So with this in mind how can we interpret this verse from a 12er Shia point of view ?

Hani

Re: Dozener Imamate Contradicts This Verse
« Reply #1 on: February 03, 2015, 03:41:24 PM »
{...and adversity would not touch me....}


I think "adversity" touched the Shia Imams, such as `Ali being struck on his head and killed, and such as Husayn being massacred with his household and so on...
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

Optimus Prime

Re: Dozener Imamate Contradicts This Verse
« Reply #2 on: February 03, 2015, 06:01:36 PM »
{...and adversity would not touch me....}


I think "adversity" touched the Shia Imams, such as `Ali being struck on his head and killed, and such as Husayn being massacred with his household and so on...

And, Hassan being poisoned.

Rationalist

Re: Dozener Imamate Contradicts This Verse
« Reply #3 on: February 03, 2015, 06:44:33 PM »
{...and adversity would not touch me....}


I think "adversity" touched the Shia Imams, such as `Ali being struck on his head and killed, and such as Husayn being massacred with his household and so on...

Actually with Imam Ali (as) he did his best to avoid what was ahead of him. For example at first he refuses the Caliphate saying appoint another, and also he says if I can't bring justice with this Caliphate then its not use.
Next, because the people of Kufa frustrated him with humiliation, when death came he happily accepted it.

Again I think this was because the Prophet (pbuh) told him about the future. Again we Sunni have no problem with Imam Ali (as) inheriting knowledge from the Prophet (pbuh)

Hani

Re: Dozener Imamate Contradicts This Verse
« Reply #4 on: February 03, 2015, 07:45:23 PM »
I personally don't believe `Ali or Husayn knew everything about their own deaths. It makes no sense to me historically or logically and contradicts the content of that verse you just quoted.


I do believe they were told about their deaths by Rasul-Allah (saw) but not in a clear way such as how some Sunnies and Shias believe, they expected it but never knew when and how.


In the future I may research this in great detail, for now I don't see it on top of my priorities list since it's not important at all.
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

Rationalist

Re: Dozener Imamate Contradicts This Verse
« Reply #5 on: February 07, 2015, 10:37:42 PM »
I personally don't believe `Ali or Husayn knew everything about their own deaths. It makes no sense to me historically or logically and contradicts the content of that verse you just quoted.

This is the difference in the 12er Shia school in comparison to any other school of though. They have a branch of epistemology within the concept of Imamate itself.  Some of the more extreme views on Imamate is the Imams have a unique innate concept which allows them to know things. Others views point out that they  have sources such as Jafr, Jamia and Mushaf Al Fatima.

Now looking at all of this, I found it ironic how Imam Ali (as) laughs at a person who assumes that Imam Ali (as) gained knowledge through his innate level of spirituality when he  sees Imam Ali (as) talking about the future.
Najh Al Balagha
Sermon 128: O Ahnaf!....

About important future events in Basrah
ومن كلام له (عليه السلام)
وهو ممّا كان يخبر به عن الملاحم بالبصرة
O Ahnaf! It is as though I see him advancing with an army which has neither dust nor noise, nor rustling of reins, nor neighing of horses. They are trampling the ground with their feet as if they are the feet of ostriches.

يَا أَحْنَفُ، كَأَنِّي بِهِ وَقَدْ سَارَ بِالْجَيْشِ الَّذِي لاَ يَكُونُ لَهُ غُبَارٌ وَلاَ لَجَبٌ، وَلاَ قَعْقَعَةُ لُجُم، وَلاَ حَمْحَمَةُ خَيْل، يُثِيرُونَ الاْرْضَ بِأَقْدَامِهِمْ كَأَنَّهَا أَقْدَامُ النَّعَامِ.
As-Sayyid ar-Radi says: Amir al-mu'minin pointed to the Chief of the Negroes, (Sahibu'z-Zanj).1

يومىء بذلك (عليه السلام) إلى صاحب الزّنْج.
Then Amir al -mu'minin said:

Woe to you (the people of Basrah’s) inhabited streets and decorated houses which possess wings like the wings of vultures and trunks like the trunks of elephants; they are the people from among whom if one is killed he is not mourned and if one is lost he is not searched for. I turn this world over on its face, value it only according to its (low) value, and look at it with an eye suitable to it.

ثمّ قال (عليه السلام): وَيْلٌ لِسِكَكِكُمُ الْعَامِرَةِ، وَدُورِكُمُ الْمُزَخْرَفَةِ الَّتِي لَهَا أَجْنِحَةٌ كَأَجْنَحَةِ النُّسُورِ، وَخَرَاطِيمُ كَخَرَاطِيمِ الْفِيَلَةِ، مِنْ أُولئِكَ الَّذِينَ لاَ يُنْدَبُ قَتِيلُهُمْ، وَلاَ يُفْقَدُ غَائِبُهُمْ. أَنَا كَابُّ الدُّنْيَا لِوَجْهِهَا، وَقَادِرُهَا بِقَدْرِهَا، وَنَاظِرُهَا بِعَيْنِهَا.
A part of the same sermon referring to the Turks (Mongols)

منه: ويومئ به إلى وصف الاتراك
I 2 can see a people whose faces are like shields covered with rough-scraped skins. They dress themselves in silken and woollen clothes and hold dear excellent horses. Their killing and bloodshed shall take place freely till the wounded shall walk over the dead and the number of runners-away shall be less than those taken prisoner:

كَأَنِّي أَرَاهُمْ قَوْماً كَأَنَّ وَجُوهَهُمُ الْـمَجَانُّ الْمُطَرَّقَةُ، يَلْبَسُونَ السَّرَقَ وَالدِّيبَاجَ، وَيَعْتَقِبُونَ الْخَيْلَ الْعِتَاقَ، وَيَكُونُ هُنَاكَ اسْتِحْرَارُ قَتْل،حَتَّى يَمْشِيَ الْـمَجْرُوحُ عَلَى الْمَقْتُولِ، وَيَكُونَ الْمُفْلِتُ أَقَلَّ مِنَ المَأْسُورِ!
One of his companions said to him: O Amir al-mu'minin, you have been given knowledge of hidden things. Whereupon Amir al-mu'minin laughed and said to the man who belonged to the tribe of Banu Kalb:

فقال له بعض أصحابه: لقد أَعطيت يا أميرالمؤمنين علم الغيب! فضحك (عليه السلام)، وقال للرجل ـ وكان كلبياً ـ :
O brother of Kalb! This is not knowledge of hidden things (`ilmu'l-ghayb), 3 these matters have been acquired from him (namely in Prophet) who knew them. As regard knowledge of hidden things, that means knowledge of the Day of Judgement, and the things covered by Allah in the verse:

“Verily, Allah is He with Whom is the knowledge of the Hour; He sends down the rain, and He knows what is in the wombs. No soul knows what it will earn tomorrow, and no soul knows in what land it will die..” (Qur'an, 31:34)

Therefore, Allah alone knows what is there in the wombs, whether male or female, ugly or handsome, generous or miserly, mischievous or pious, and who will be the fuel for Hell and who will be in the company of the Prophets in Paradise. This is the knowledge of the hidden things which is not known to anyone save Allah. All else is that whose knowledge Allah passed on to His Prophet and he passed it on to me, and prayed for me that my bosom may retain it and my ribs may hold it.

يَا أَخَا كَلْب، لَيْسَ هُوَ بِعِلْمِ غَيْب، وَإِنَّمَا هُوَ تَعَلُّمٌ مِنْ ذِي عِلْم، وَإِنَّمَا عِلْمُ الْغَيْبِ عِلْمُ السَّاعَةِ، وَمَا عَدَّدَهُ اللهُ سُبْحَانَهُ بِقَوْلِهِ: (إِنَّ اللهَ عِنْدَهُ عِلْمُ السَّاعَةِ وَ يُنَزِّلُ الْغَيْثُ، وَ يَعْلَمُ ما فِى الاْرْحامِ، وَ لاتَدْرى نَفْسٌ ماذا تَكْسِبُ غَداً، وَ ما تَدْرى نَفْسٌ بِاَىِّ اَرْض تَموتُ..).الاية. فَيَعْلَمُ سُبْحَانَهُ مَا فِي الاْرْحَامِ مِنْ ذَكَر أَوْ أُنْثَى، وَقَبِيح أَوْ جَمِيل، وَسَخِيٍّ أَوْ بَخِيل، وَشَقيّ أَوْ سَعِيد، وَمَنْ يَكُونُ فِي النَّارِ حَطَباً، أَوْ فِي الْجِنَانِ لِلنَّبِيِّينَ مُرَافِقاً; فَهذَا عَلْمُ الْغَيْبِ الَّذِي لاَ يَعْلَمُهُ أَحَدٌ إِلاَّ اللهُ، وَمَا سِوَى ذلِكَ فَعِلْمٌ عَلَّمَهُ اللهُ نَبِيَّهُ (صلى الله عليه وآله) فَعَلَّمَنِيهِ، وَدَعَا لِي بِأَنْ يَعِيَهُ صَدْرِي، وَتَضْطَمَّ عَلَيْهِ جَوَانِحِي.

 


Quote
I do believe they were told about their deaths by Rasul-Allah (saw) but not in a clear way such as how some Sunnies and Shias believe, they expected it but never knew when and how.
I think within the Sunnis the Sufis have made a big mess on trying to explain this concept. Within the 12ers I seen 12er Shia leaders like Hasnain Rajabali exploit it. For example the Prophet (pbuh) told Fatima (sa) she will soon pass away. So with this information he gets all emotional and angry and add 'they will unleash a venom against you Fatima, and hit you
due to their jealously." Again his statement contain pronoun errors due to taqiyyah. The reason is he can't lie about Umar openly.

Quote
In the future I may research this in great detail, for now I don't see it on top of my priorities list since it's not important at all.
Everyone has their methods to deal with deviance. I think this area helped me move away from the deviance within Sufism, and I also think its a big challenge to the 12er Shia. In fact, the 12ers hate non-Sufi Sunni more then the Sufis, and one of the reasons is because its hard to non-sufi Sunnis of such deviant beliefs.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2015, 10:41:10 PM by Rationalist »

Furkan

Re: Dozener Imamate Contradicts This Verse
« Reply #6 on: February 08, 2015, 01:15:33 AM »
Rationalist, do you know what sufism is actually?
Before Qazî Mihemed, President of the first kurdish Republic Mahabad was hanged the iranian judge asked:

“last words?”

Qazî: “I thank Allah: even in death he put my shoes above your heads”

Rationalist

Re: Dozener Imamate Contradicts This Verse
« Reply #7 on: February 08, 2015, 01:25:12 AM »
It has evolved. In the early stages it was a science without  a name. However, later it started branching out on it own field of specialization.

 

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