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How can Imams know the Mutashabihat?

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Rationalist

How can Imams know the Mutashabihat?
« on: June 04, 2018, 05:59:14 AM »
Okay so I looked the verse of Mukahamath and Mutashabihat, and for the Mutashabihat it says only Allah (swt) alone knows it. However, the 12er Shia appear and still say the Imams know it. If this is the case  why doesn't the Quran just say the 12 Imams know it as well?



هُوَ الَّذِي أَنْزَلَ عَلَيْكَ الْكِتَابَ مِنْهُ آيَاتٌ مُحْكَمَاتٌ هُنَّ أُمُّ الْكِتَابِ وَأُخَرُ مُتَشَابِهَاتٌ ۖ فَأَمَّا الَّذِينَ فِي قُلُوبِهِمْ زَيْغٌ فَيَتَّبِعُونَ مَا تَشَابَهَ مِنْهُ ابْتِغَاءَ الْفِتْنَةِ وَابْتِغَاءَ تَأْوِيلِهِ ۗ وَمَا يَعْلَمُ تَأْوِيلَهُ إِلَّا اللَّهُ ۗ وَالرَّاسِخُونَ فِي الْعِلْمِ يَقُولُونَ آمَنَّا بِهِ كُلٌّ مِنْ عِنْدِ رَبِّنَا ۗ وَمَا يَذَّكَّرُ إِلَّا أُولُو الْأَلْبَابِ {7}

[Shakir 3:7] He it is Who has revealed the Book to you; some of its verses are decisive, they are the basis of the Book, and others are allegorical; then as for those in whose hearts there is perversity they follow the part of it which is allegorical, seeking to mislead and seeking to give it (their own) interpretation. but none knows its interpretation except Allah, and those who are firmly rooted in knowledge say: We believe in it, it is all from our Lord; and none do mind except those having understanding.
[Pickthal 3:7] He it is Who hath revealed unto thee (Muhammad) the Scripture wherein are clear revelations - they are the substance of the Book - and others (which are) allegorical. But those in whose hearts is doubt pursue, forsooth, that which is allegorical seeking (to cause) dissension by seeking to explain it. None knoweth its explanation save Allah. And those who are of sound instruction say: We believe therein; the whole is from our Lord; but only men of understanding really heed.
[Yusufali 3:7] He it is Who has sent down to thee the Book: In it are verses basic or fundamental (of established meaning); they are the foundation of the Book: others are allegorical. But those in whose hearts is perversity follow the part thereof that is allegorical, seeking discord, and searching for its hidden meanings, but no one knows its hidden meanings except Allah. And those who are firmly grounded in knowledge say: "We believe in the Book; the whole of it is from our Lord:" and none will grasp the Message except men of understanding.
[Pooya/Ali Commentary 3:7]
As explained in the commentary of verse 2 of al Baqarah the Quran was revealed to the Holy Prophet. He knew the true meaning of every verse, or after him, it was Ali who claimed that he knew when, why and for whom every verse of the Quran was revealed.

Most of the verses of the Quran are clear and decisive. There is no ambiguity in them. They are known as the muhkamat. They relate to the fundamentals of the faith, such as the oneness of Allah, the directions pertaining to the practice of the faith and the laws governing the day to day life of the faithful. They can neither be changed nor modified. Any man of average intelligence can understand and follow them.

The mutashabihat are the verses which have been composed in subtle and profound diction and style. They carry implications other than the literal meanings, and therefore, are capable of giving different significations, like "The hand of Allah is on their hands" in verse 10 of al Fat-h. Verse 1 of al Hud says that the Quran is a book of clear and decisive verses. Verse 23 of al Zumar says that Allah has sent down the very best discourse as a book conformable in its repetition and consimilarity. Only the men of understanding who possess a higher level of intelligence contemplate and find out the meaningful implications of such verses. Average and ordinary minds cannot figure out or have knowledge of the real purport of such verses, and if they try this on their own, they are bewildered and go astray. As mentioned in the commentary of verse 1 of al Baqarah, the huruf muqatta-at are also meaningful but their subtle and profound meanings are known to Allah and His chosen representatives (Muhammad and ali Muhammad) only. Therefore, those who know the true purport of these symbolic letters occupy the highest position in the domain of knowledge and wisdom. In the well-known tradition of thaqalayn the Holy Prophet has clearly made known the fact that whoso remains attached with the Quran and his Ahl ul Bayt, after his departure from this world, will never go astray, because these two weighty authorities will never be separated from each other, and joined together, they shall meet the Holy Prophet at the spring of Kawthar; and "I am the city of knowledge and Ali is its gate", said the Holy Prophet in order to guide the faithfuls so that, to have knowledge of the Quran, they must refer to Ali and his Ahl ul Bayt, who alone know the true meanings of the mutashabihat.

MuslimAnswers

Re: How can Imams know the Mutashabihat?
« Reply #1 on: June 04, 2018, 12:13:14 PM »
Okay so I looked the verse of Mukahamath and Mutashabihat, and for the Mutashabihat it says only Allah (swt) alone knows it. However, the 12er Shia appear and still say the Imams know it. If this is the case  why doesn't the Quran just say the 12 Imams know it as well?

The issue is not only some Mutashaabihat here and there. Rather, the Twelvers' problem is subverting even the Muhkamaat to the supposed Mutashaabih sayings of their "Imams", meaning turning everything upside down and then blaming the Ummah of Islam for not accepting these "Imamical Inventions".

iceman

Re: How can Imams know the Mutashabihat?
« Reply #2 on: June 04, 2018, 10:39:59 PM »
When king Soloman asked for the throne of Queen Bilqees to be brought before him then a man stepped forward and claimed he could get the throne quicker than a blink of an eye, who was this man. And if he can posses such ability then those who were purified to the state of purification  why can't they?

The question is 'did or didn't they' this can be discussed. But discussing the possibility that one can't have or be given the ability is surprising when we have an individual who brought the throne quicker than a blink of an eye. Who was this man? Was he a Messenger/Prophet? He possessed such ability.

glorfindel

Re: How can Imams know the Mutashabihat?
« Reply #3 on: June 05, 2018, 12:56:03 AM »
When king Soloman asked for the throne of Queen Bilqees to be brought before him then a man stepped forward and claimed he could get the throne quicker than a blink of an eye, who was this man. And if he can posses such ability then those who were purified to the state of purification  why can't they?

The question is 'did or didn't they' this can be discussed. But discussing the possibility that one can't have or be given the ability is surprising when we have an individual who brought the throne quicker than a blink of an eye. Who was this man? Was he a Messenger/Prophet? He possessed such ability.

1. And if he can posses such ability then those who were purified to the state of purification  why can't they?"

Maybe being purified to the state of purification doesn't give you that ability - maybe they are mutually exclusive, the verses doesn't say that the man who could bring the throne was purified to the state of purification.

2. Who was this man? Was he a Messenger/Prophet? He possessed such ability

According to ibn Kathir his name was Asif ibn Barkhiya and he was a scribe of Sulayman (as).  He has such an ability because Allah gave it to him - did Allah give this ability (or any other) to the 12 Imams?  Where is the proof?

3. Muhkamat and Mutashabihat verses are categorizations in the verses of the quran with respect to meaning, the muhkamat are singular in meaning and the mutashbihat verses have a multiplicity of meaning - if the meaning resides with the Imam, i.e they know the "true" meaning, then by necessity the verse would no longer be mutashabihat as you would have restricted the verse to one meaning.

I hope this helps.

Noor-us-Sunnah

Re: How can Imams know the Mutashabihat?
« Reply #4 on: June 05, 2018, 10:49:38 PM »
When king Soloman asked for the throne of Queen Bilqees to be brought before him then a man stepped forward and claimed he could get the throne quicker than a blink of an eye, who was this man. And if he can posses such ability then those who were purified to the state of purification  why can't they?

The question is 'did or didn't they' this can be discussed. But discussing the possibility that one can't have or be given the ability is surprising when we have an individual who brought the throne quicker than a blink of an eye. Who was this man? Was he a Messenger/Prophet? He possessed such ability.
Did Khomeini or Khoei or Tusi or Mufeed or Najashi or Sadooq or Kulayni, had the knowledge of book of Allah? If yes, then why weren't they able to do what Asif the companion of Sulaiman(as) was able to do? Isn't Quran the best book? Aren't Ummatis of Prophet(saws) the best of Ummah, then why? Try to figure it out. You'll get the answer to your foolish questions.

Rationalist

Re: How can Imams know the Mutashabihat?
« Reply #5 on: June 06, 2018, 03:49:27 AM »
When king Soloman asked for the throne of Queen Bilqees to be brought before him then a man stepped forward and claimed he could get the throne quicker than a blink of an eye, who was this man. And if he can posses such ability then those who were purified to the state of purification  why can't they?

The question is 'did or didn't they' this can be discussed. But discussing the possibility that one can't have or be given the ability is surprising when we have an individual who brought the throne quicker than a blink of an eye. Who was this man? Was he a Messenger/Prophet? He possessed such ability.

The worst qiyas I have ever seen. Don't 12er Shia believe Abu Hanifah was cursed by the 6th Imam for using qiyas? Was it because he was a Bakri this curse applies? Seriously how does this answer the question?
By the way Agha Pooya believed that man who moved the throne was Imam Ali. Supposedly the Imam travelled back in time to help Soloman.

iceman

Re: How can Imams know the Mutashabihat?
« Reply #6 on: June 06, 2018, 05:18:13 AM »
The worst qiyas I have ever seen. Don't 12er Shia believe Abu Hanifah was cursed by the 6th Imam for using qiyas? Was it because he was a Bakri this curse applies? Seriously how does this answer the question?
By the way Agha Pooya believed that man who moved the throne was Imam Ali. Supposedly the Imam travelled back in time to help Soloman.

You've completely gone off topic there. This is the usual technique used to derail threads.

Rationalist

Re: How can Imams know the Mutashabihat?
« Reply #7 on: June 06, 2018, 06:55:07 AM »
Your qiyas is off topic. Allah says in the Quran that only he knows the exact meaning of the Mutashabihat verses, and your qiyas comes in and does disservice. In fact  you used the movement of the throne to prove your case. 11 of the Imams in your beliefs did taqiyyah. Were they able to move the thrones of the Ummawis and the Abbasids? No! So how is your reply even relevant?

iceman

Re: How can Imams know the Mutashabihat?
« Reply #8 on: June 07, 2018, 12:49:17 AM »
Your qiyas is off topic. Allah says in the Quran that only he knows the exact meaning of the Mutashabihat verses, and your qiyas comes in and does disservice. In fact  you used the movement of the throne to prove your case. 11 of the Imams in your beliefs did taqiyyah. Were they able to move the thrones of the Ummawis and the Abbasids? No! So how is your reply even relevant?

Lets leave my qiyas on possibility out of it for a moment. This is what was said in your introductory post;

"but none knows its interpretation except Allah, and those who are firmly rooted in knowledge"

And in your present post you say;

"Allah says in the Quran that only he knows the exact meaning of the Mutashabihat verses"

So what happened to "and those who are firmly rooted in knowledge" ?

Is it just and only Allah who knows? Or and those who are firmly rooted in knowledge along with Allah?

Take a look and examine the following;

Ayah 7 in Surat Al-^Imran means:

"No one knows their true meanings except Allah and those who are firmly rooted in the knowledge of the Religion. The latter say, "We believe in it, all of it is from our Lord" and none will understand the message except men of comprehension."

You'll find that it's not only and just Allah but also 'Rasekhoona Fil ilm' those who are firmly rooted in knowledge/men of comprehension. And we strongly believe that those who are firmly rooted in knowledge/men of comprehension are the twelve Imams.

What do you have to say now? Are you going to look into this with an open mind or keep coming at me with bits and pieces suiting your mindset?
« Last Edit: June 07, 2018, 12:59:30 AM by iceman »

Rationalist

Re: How can Imams know the Mutashabihat?
« Reply #9 on: June 07, 2018, 06:42:36 AM »
Lets leave my qiyas on possibility out of it for a moment. This is what was said in your introductory post;

"but none knows its interpretation except Allah, and those who are firmly rooted in knowledge"

And in your present post you say;

"Allah says in the Quran that only he knows the exact meaning of the Mutashabihat verses"

So what happened to "and those who are firmly rooted in knowledge" ?

There is recommended stop after the word Allah.
Quote
Is it just and only Allah who knows? Or and those who are firmly rooted in knowledge along with Allah?
If you know the basic rules of Tajweed the recommended stop is after Allah, and its not in after "those who are rooted in knowledge."



Quote
"No one knows their true meanings except Allah and those who are firmly rooted in the knowledge of the Religion. The latter say, "We believe in it, all of it is from our Lord" and none will understand the message except men of comprehension."
According to which rules of Tajweed? You put in the stops where its not there.

Quote
You'll find that it's not only and just Allah but also 'Rasekhoona Fil ilm' those who are firmly rooted in knowledge/men of comprehension. And we strongly believe that those who are firmly rooted in knowledge/men of comprehension are the twelve Imams.
Which jahil muffasir among the 12er Shia removed the recommened stop and added stops where they don't belong?
I doubt any of the 12er Shia scholars are this ignorant.
Quote
What do you have to say now? Are you going to look into this with an open mind or keep coming at me with bits and pieces suiting your mindset?
What I have to say is that you don't know the basic rules of how to read the Quran. You removed the recommended stop and added a stop where its not present. Imam Ali (as) used to teach people the Quran, and here you playing with the rules just to make a point.


iceman

Re: How can Imams know the Mutashabihat?
« Reply #10 on: June 07, 2018, 08:26:59 PM »
There is recommended stop after the word Allah. If you know the basic rules of Tajweed the recommended stop is after Allah, and its not in after "those who are rooted in knowledge."


According to which rules of Tajweed? You put in the stops where its not there.
Which jahil muffasir among the 12er Shia removed the recommened stop and added stops where they don't belong?
I doubt any of the 12er Shia scholars are this ignorant. What I have to say is that you don't know the basic rules of how to read the Quran. You removed the recommended stop and added a stop where its not present. Imam Ali (as) used to teach people the Quran, and here you playing with the rules just to make a point.

What a lousy and ridiculous response. Here it is again;

Ayah 7 in Surat Al-^Imran means:

"No one knows their true meanings except Allah and those who are firmly rooted in the knowledge of the Religion. The latter say, "We believe in it, all of it is from our Lord" and none will understand the message except men of comprehension."

What can I say. If you want to play that blind or result in such arrogance then that's down to you.

Rationalist

Re: How can Imams know the Mutashabihat?
« Reply #11 on: June 08, 2018, 01:30:57 PM »
What a lousy and ridiculous response. Here it is again;

Ayah 7 in Surat Al-^Imran means:

"No one knows their true meanings except Allah and those who are firmly rooted in the knowledge of the Religion. The latter say, "We believe in it, all of it is from our Lord" and none will understand the message except men of comprehension."
Which translator removed the period after Allah and added after religion? This is not in the Arabic.

Quote
What can I say. If you want to play that blind or result in such arrogance then that's down to you.
Taqiyyah allows you to do wonders. There is no stop after religion. You added it, and your asbiyah allowed this lie to take place. Once again which translator removed the period after Allah and added it after religion? The Arabic has no stop where you added it. Fear Allah or you will be sinned for it. Even the 12er Shia Mufassir did not do what you did.

zaid_ibn_ali

Re: How can Imams know the Mutashabihat?
« Reply #12 on: June 08, 2018, 04:22:50 PM »
I’ve noticed that shia sites online translate it the way Iceman has pasted.
But all sunni translations stop at ‘Allah’.
Can anyone shed light on whether its a valid translation or not by the shia?
Clearly the two different translations give different meanings.

iceman

Re: How can Imams know the Mutashabihat?
« Reply #13 on: June 08, 2018, 06:53:50 PM »
Which translator removed the period after Allah and added after religion? This is not in the Arabic.
Taqiyyah allows you to do wonders. There is no stop after religion. You added it, and your asbiyah allowed this lie to take place. Once again which translator removed the period after Allah and added it after religion? The Arabic has no stop where you added it. Fear Allah or you will be sinned for it. Even the 12er Shia Mufassir did not do what you did.

I don't understand why you get personal or speak as though you hold a grudge. Most of you respond and behave as such. Did I say anything about taqiya. What's this got to do with the thread, subject and topic and what we're discussing.

Rationalist

Re: How can Imams know the Mutashabihat?
« Reply #14 on: June 08, 2018, 07:09:22 PM »
You didn't explain why the translation differs. Instead of replying to the question you pasted a translation and wanted to carry a discussion based on a copy and paste translation.

Rationalist

Re: How can Imams know the Mutashabihat?
« Reply #15 on: June 08, 2018, 07:17:47 PM »
I’ve noticed that shia sites online translate it the way Iceman has pasted.
But all sunni translations stop at ‘Allah’.
Can anyone shed light on whether its a valid translation or not by the shia?
Clearly the two different translations give different meanings.

They ignored the stops placed in the quran and added their own stops. Question is where is the 12er version the stops? Can we find it online?

iceman

Re: How can Imams know the Mutashabihat?
« Reply #16 on: June 08, 2018, 07:33:00 PM »
You didn't explain why the translation differs. Instead of replying to the question you pasted a translation and wanted to carry a discussion based on a copy and paste translation.

Ok, why don't you put the actual verses forward and we shall take it from there, so there is no misunderstanding or excuses.

iceman

Re: How can Imams know the Mutashabihat?
« Reply #17 on: June 08, 2018, 10:30:35 PM »
This is the title of your thread;

How can Imams know the Mutashabihat?

And this is what you said at the beginning of your opening post;

"Okay so I looked the verse of Mukahamath and Mutashabihat, and for the Mutashabihat it says only Allah (swt) alone knows it. However, the 12er Shia appear and still say the Imams know it. If this is the case  why doesn't the Quran just say the 12 Imams know it as well?"

Now what exactly do the verses say? Forget about what you and I think or what the Shias or Sunnis say, what does Allah say?
« Last Edit: June 08, 2018, 10:34:43 PM by iceman »

iceman

Re: How can Imams know the Mutashabihat?
« Reply #18 on: June 08, 2018, 10:56:41 PM »
This is the title of your thread;

How can Imams know the Mutashabihat?

And this is what you said at the beginning of your opening post;

"Okay so I looked the verse of Mukahamath and Mutashabihat, and for the Mutashabihat it says only Allah (swt) alone knows it. However, the 12er Shia appear and still say the Imams know it. If this is the case  why doesn't the Quran just say the 12 Imams know it as well?"

Now what exactly do the verses say? Forget about what you and I think or what the Shias or Sunnis say, what does Allah say?

The following is from your first and opening post as well;

هُوَ الَّذِي أَنْزَلَ عَلَيْكَ الْكِتَابَ مِنْهُ آيَاتٌ مُحْكَمَاتٌ هُنَّ أُمُّ الْكِتَابِ وَأُخَرُ مُتَشَابِهَاتٌ ۖ فَأَمَّا الَّذِينَ فِي قُلُوبِهِمْ زَيْغٌ فَيَتَّبِعُونَ مَا تَشَابَهَ مِنْهُ ابْتِغَاءَ الْفِتْنَةِ وَابْتِغَاءَ تَأْوِيلِهِ ۗ وَمَا يَعْلَمُ تَأْوِيلَهُ إِلَّا اللَّهُ ۗ وَالرَّاسِخُونَ فِي الْعِلْمِ يَقُولُونَ آمَنَّا بِهِ كُلٌّ مِنْ عِنْدِ رَبِّنَا ۗ وَمَا يَذَّكَّرُ إِلَّا أُولُو الْأَلْبَابِ {7}

[Shakir 3:7] He it is Who has revealed the Book to you; some of its verses are decisive, they are the basis of the Book, and others are allegorical; then as for those in whose hearts there is perversity they follow the part of it which is allegorical, seeking to mislead and seeking to give it (their own) interpretation. but none knows its interpretation except Allah, and those who are firmly rooted in knowledge say: We believe in it, it is all from our Lord; and none do mind except those having understanding.

Notice this;

"وَمَا يَعْلَمُ تَأْوِيلَهُ إِلَّا اللَّهُ ۗ وَالرَّاسِخُونَ فِي الْعِلْمِ"

Translate the above for me and tell me what is being said

This is part of what you quoted;

"But none knows its interpretation except Allah, and those who are firmly rooted in knowledge"

What does 'Rasekhoona Fil Ilm' mean and who are they? No one is aware of the true meaning and understanding of the verses of Mutashabihat 'illallah' apart from Allah and 'Rasekhoona Fil ilm' those who are firmly rooted in knowledge.

Why didn't Allah say somewhere along the lines of 'apart from Allah and his Messengers'? Or no one is aware other than Allah? Allah has said apart from him those who are firmly rooted in knowledge are also aware. Focus on the open statement 'those who are firmly rooted in knowledge'. This is an open statement and can also apply to high ranking scholars from both sides (Shias as well as Sunnis).

Because apart from Allah if no one is aware of the actual and true meaning and understanding of Mutashabihat verses then what do we do and make of these verses? If we go by your understanding and statement that apart from Allah no one knows or knew the actual and true meaning and understanding of the Mutashabihat verses then that means the Prophet (pbuh) was also clueless and helpless?

Mythbuster1

Re: How can Imams know the Mutashabihat?
« Reply #19 on: June 08, 2018, 11:08:40 PM »
then that means the Prophet (pbuh) was also clueless and helpless?

You really are stupid and I really mean that using such words for rehmat ul alimeen saw.......you could use better words at the least, is your vocabulary that low??
Astaghfirullah

 

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