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How can Imams know the Mutashabihat?

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wannabe

Re: How can Imams know the Mutashabihat?
« Reply #40 on: June 17, 2018, 08:59:28 AM »
Actually this makes a huge difference. Thanks! Is there any 12er Shia narrations about the Imams having the same understanding as Ibn Abbas?
salam bro
i was hoping bro iceman will answer your question.
since none came so far, here i am.
i don't think there are narrations about Imams having the same understanding as Ibn Abbas.
However, there are narrations saying the Imams are "those who are firmly rooted in knowledge" in Al Kafi V 1 – The Book Of Divine Authority CH 22.
mind you, i am just answering your question (i don't know how authentic these are, though).
i'm not a shia but i sure would like to see every ahlul qiblat
"....strive with one another to hasten to virtuous deeds; to Allah is your return, of all (of you), so He will let you know that in which you differed;". (Quran 5:48)

wannabe

Re: How can Imams know the Mutashabihat?
« Reply #41 on: June 17, 2018, 09:09:03 AM »
Ibn Kathir reported: Ibn Abbas said, “Interpretations (tafseer) are of four types: interpretations no one will be excused for misunderstanding, interpretations known to the Arabs from their language, interpretations known only to those grounded in knowledge, and interpretations known only to Allah the Exalted.” This saying has been narrated from Aisha, Urwah, Abu Sha’tha, Abu Naheek, and others.

Source: Tafseer Ibn Kathir 3:7

عن ابن كثير عَنِ ابْنِ عَبَّاسٍ أَنَّهُ قَالَ التَّفْسِيرُ عَلَى أَرْبَعَةِ أَنْحَاءٍ فَتَفْسِيرٌ لَا يُعْذَرُ أَحَدٌ فِي فَهْمِهِ وَتَفْسِيرٌ تَعْرِفُهُ الْعَرَبُ مِنْ لُغَاتِهَا وَتَفْسِيرٌ يَعْلَمُهُ الرَّاسِخُونَ فِي الْعِلْمِ وَتَفْسِيرٌ لَا يَعْلَمُهُ إِلَّا اللَّهُ عَزَّ وَجَلَّ وَيُرْوَى هَذَا الْقَوْلُ عَنْ عَائِشَةَ وَعُرْوَةَ وَأَبِي الشَّعْثَاءِ وَأَبِي نَهِيكٍ وَغَيْرِهِمْ

3:7 تفسير القرآن العظيم تفسير سورة آل عمران تفسير قوله تعالى هو الذي أنزل عليك الكتاب منه آيات محكمات

So it seems Ibn Abbas being one of those able to do taweel is in reference to only the third type, by his own definition?
So he agrees there are verses which only Allah SWT knows their meanings.

Also can someone clarify if the quote which wannabe posted was a deliberate misquote by not quoting fully what Ibn Abbas said or was it a genuine seperate quote?
i believe they are 2 separate reports. i try not to misled anyone since i fear 
[Shakir 16:25] That they may bear their burdens entirely on the day of resurrection and also of the burdens of those whom they lead astray without knowledge; now surely evil is what they bear.

Rationalist

Re: How can Imams know the Mutashabihat?
« Reply #42 on: June 17, 2018, 04:42:54 PM »
salam bro
i was hoping bro iceman will answer your question.
since none came so far, here i am.
i don't think there are narrations about Imams having the same understanding as Ibn Abbas.
However, there are narrations saying the Imams are "those who are firmly rooted in knowledge" in Al Kafi V 1 – The Book Of Divine Authority CH 22.
mind you, i am just answering your question (i don't know how authentic these are, though).
i'm not a shia but i sure would like to see every ahlul qiblat
"....strive with one another to hasten to virtuous deeds; to Allah is your return, of all (of you), so He will let you know that in which you differed;". (Quran 5:48)

This is all I wanted. Instead the brother started with an anology and then didnt back up why the translation differed. Then again instead of answering the question he replied with more questions. Also I am wondering if the Imams explains where the stops are in the verse. I dont know why but Abdullah ibn Abbas most of the time shows more knowledge than the 12er Shia Imams on the bases of their narration. One can blame the narrators in the end.

iceman

Re: How can Imams know the Mutashabihat?
« Reply #43 on: June 17, 2018, 05:16:01 PM »
This is all I wanted. Instead the brother started with an anology and then didnt back up why the translation differed. Then again instead of answering the question he replied with more questions. Also I am wondering if the Imams explains where the stops are in the verse. I dont know why but Abdullah ibn Abbas most of the time shows more knowledge than the 12er Shia Imams on the bases of their narration. One can blame the narrators in the end.

This is what I've put forward and mentioned and also touched on a few times but you've continuously avoided,
And what about them, those who have advance knowledge of the Qur'an? And what do you mean of ADVANCE KNOWLEDGE? Either Allah knows the true and actual meaning and understanding of the Mutashabihat verses along with 'Rasekhoona Fil ilm' those who are firmly rooted in knowledge, or if only Allah knows then what about "Rasekhoona Fil ilm' ? Why have they been mentioned and what for?

We join 'Rasekhoona Fil ilm' along with Allah that not only he is aware of the actual and true meaning and understanding of the Mutashabihat verses but also those firmly rooted in knowledge. But you separate 'Rasekhoona Fil ilm' from Allah then why are they mentioned and where and what are you going to attach them with? Your talking about the stop but not addressing the remainder of the verse.  What's the purpose and reason for the rest of the verse?

zaid_ibn_ali

Re: How can Imams know the Mutashabihat?
« Reply #44 on: June 17, 2018, 05:56:17 PM »
See:

http://quranicduas.com/tafsir-ibn-kathir-surah-ali-imran-ayah-7-9/

It explains who they are.
Also explains Ibn Abbas does believe some verses only Allah SWT knows their true meanings & that there are some verses which those firmly grounded in knowledge understand.

iceman

Re: How can Imams know the Mutashabihat?
« Reply #45 on: June 17, 2018, 07:24:52 PM »
See:

http://quranicduas.com/tafsir-ibn-kathir-surah-ali-imran-ayah-7-9/

It explains who they are.
Also explains Ibn Abbas does believe some verses only Allah SWT knows their true meanings & that there are some verses which those firmly grounded in knowledge understand.

Thanks. Take a look at the following verse;

"(O’ Prophet) say: Enough for witness between me and you is Allah and he who possesses the Knowledge of the Book.”(Qur’an 13:43)

 قُلْ كَفَىٰ بِاللَّـهِ شَهِيدًا بَيْنِي وَبَيْنَكُمْ وَمَنْ عِندَهُ عِلْمُ الْكِتَابِ  (Qur’an 13:43)"

Notice this; "and he who possess the knowledge of the book"

Is there someone apart from Allah who possess knowledge of the book who along with Allah are witnesses between Muhammad (pbuh) and who ever the 'YOU' are?

What's the Ahle Sunah perspective of this particular verse?
« Last Edit: June 17, 2018, 07:27:11 PM by iceman »

zaid_ibn_ali

Re: How can Imams know the Mutashabihat?
« Reply #46 on: June 17, 2018, 08:39:47 PM »
Thanks. Take a look at the following verse;

"(O’ Prophet) say: Enough for witness between me and you is Allah and he who possesses the Knowledge of the Book.”(Qur’an 13:43)

 قُلْ كَفَىٰ بِاللَّـهِ شَهِيدًا بَيْنِي وَبَيْنَكُمْ وَمَنْ عِندَهُ عِلْمُ الْكِتَابِ  (Qur’an 13:43)"

Notice this; "and he who possess the knowledge of the book"

Is there someone apart from Allah who possess knowledge of the book who along with Allah are witnesses between Muhammad (pbuh) and who ever the 'YOU' are?

What's the Ahle Sunah perspective of this particular verse?

An accurate translation would be:

Those who disbelieve say, “You are not a messenger.” Say, “God is a sufficient witness between me and you, and whoever has knowledge of the Scripture.”
(13:43).

The Jews & Christians are being referred to here. Those who had knowledge of the previous scriptures were aware of the signs of the appearance of the final messenger SAW.

See the verses preceding:

We sent messengers before you, and We assigned for them wives and offspring. No messenger could bring a sign except with the permission of God. For every era is a scripture.
(13:38).







Rationalist

Re: How can Imams know the Mutashabihat?
« Reply #47 on: June 18, 2018, 06:08:07 PM »
This is what I've put forward and mentioned and also touched on a few times but you've continuously avoided,
And what about them, those who have advance knowledge of the Qur'an? And what do you mean of ADVANCE KNOWLEDGE? Either Allah knows the true and actual meaning and understanding of the Mutashabihat verses along with 'Rasekhoona Fil ilm' those who are firmly rooted in knowledge, or if only Allah knows then what about "Rasekhoona Fil ilm' ? Why have they been mentioned and what for?

We join 'Rasekhoona Fil ilm' along with Allah that not only he is aware of the actual and true meaning and understanding of the Mutashabihat verses but also those firmly rooted in knowledge. But you separate 'Rasekhoona Fil ilm' from Allah then why are they mentioned and where and what are you going to attach them with? Your talking about the stop but not addressing the remainder of the verse.  What's the purpose and reason for the rest of the verse?


Refer to reply 39.

iceman

Re: How can Imams know the Mutashabihat?
« Reply #48 on: June 18, 2018, 10:44:59 PM »
An accurate translation would be:

Those who disbelieve say, “You are not a messenger.” Say, “God is a sufficient witness between me and you, and whoever has knowledge of the Scripture.”
(13:43).

The Jews & Christians are being referred to here. Those who had knowledge of the previous scriptures were aware of the signs of the appearance of the final messenger SAW.

See the verses preceding:

We sent messengers before you, and We assigned for them wives and offspring. No messenger could bring a sign except with the permission of God. For every era is a scripture.
(13:38).

"An accurate translation would be"

How do you know the translation you've given is accurate? After all the verses you've mentioned would be Mutashabihat, wouldn't they?

So looking at the verses,

"Those who disbelieve say, “You are not a messenger.” Say, “God is a sufficient witness between me and you, and whoever has knowledge of the Scripture.”
(13:43).

God is a sufficient witness between MUHAMMAD,s.a.w and the DISBELIEVERS. And what do you make of this verse,

"and whoever has knowledge of the Scripture" is also a witness, along with God, between Muhammad s.a.w and the disbelievers? Is this what you're saying?

zaid_ibn_ali

Re: How can Imams know the Mutashabihat?
« Reply #49 on: June 19, 2018, 12:11:42 AM »
"An accurate translation would be"

How do you know the translation you've given is accurate? After all the verses you've mentioned would be Mutashabihat, wouldn't they?

So looking at the verses,

"Those who disbelieve say, “You are not a messenger.” Say, “God is a sufficient witness between me and you, and whoever has knowledge of the Scripture.”
(13:43).

God is a sufficient witness between MUHAMMAD,s.a.w and the DISBELIEVERS. And what do you make of this verse,

"and whoever has knowledge of the Scripture" is also a witness, along with God, between Muhammad s.a.w and the disbelievers? Is this what you're saying?

Yes those with knowledge of the scriptures are witnesses between the Prophet SAW & those who are denying him.
Meaning they know the signs.

iceman

Re: How can Imams know the Mutashabihat?
« Reply #50 on: June 19, 2018, 12:24:59 AM »
Yes those with knowledge of the scriptures are witnesses between the Prophet SAW & those who are denying him.
Meaning they know the signs.

Ok. I'm just trying to understand this explanation. So the argument is between Muhammad s.a.w and the disbelievers, Jews and Christians. Despite believing in their scriptures they're still holding on to them and are not accepting Muhammad s.a.w as a Messenger of God and the Qur'an as a holy scripture.

So Allah intervenes with the following verses by saying,

"Those who disbelieve say, “You are not a messenger.” Say, “God is a sufficient witness between me and you, and whoever has knowledge of the Scripture.”
(13:43)"

So those who disbelieve say to Muhammad s.a.w that "you're not a Messenger of God" despite believing in the scriptures before.

Now God intervenes by saying to Muhammad s.a.w to say to those who disbelieve by denying his Messenger status that Allah, along with those who have knowledge of the Scripture (Torah and Bible), are witnesses between Muhammad s.a.w and the disbelievers. Is this what you're saying and trying to implement?
« Last Edit: June 19, 2018, 12:32:09 AM by iceman »

zaid_ibn_ali

Re: How can Imams know the Mutashabihat?
« Reply #51 on: June 19, 2018, 01:06:33 AM »
Ok. I'm just trying to understand this explanation. So the argument is between Muhammad s.a.w and the disbelievers, Jews and Christians. Despite believing in their scriptures they're still holding on to them and are not accepting Muhammad s.a.w as a Messenger of God and the Qur'an as a holy scripture.

So Allah intervenes with the following verses by saying,

"Those who disbelieve say, “You are not a messenger.” Say, “God is a sufficient witness between me and you, and whoever has knowledge of the Scripture.”
(13:43)"

So those who disbelieve say to Muhammad s.a.w that "you're not a Messenger of God" despite believing in the scriptures before.

Now God intervenes by saying to Muhammad s.a.w to say to those who disbelieve by denying his Messenger status that Allah, along with those who have knowledge of the Scripture (Torah and Bible), are witnesses between Muhammad s.a.w and the disbelievers. Is this what you're saying and trying to implement?

Yes

iceman

Re: How can Imams know the Mutashabihat?
« Reply #52 on: June 20, 2018, 04:33:19 PM »
Yes

Ok. So what would the status of these people be, those who have knowledge of the Scripture be it Torah, Zaboor or the Bible? Would they be from the believers or disbelievers?

iceman

Re: How can Imams know the Mutashabihat?
« Reply #53 on: June 20, 2018, 06:28:45 PM »
Yes

Also how would you translate the following;   

"وَمَنْ عِندَهُ عِلْمُ الْكِتَابِ"

Would it be,

"And those who have knowledge of the Scripture"?

Or would it be,

"And he who has knowledge of the book"?
« Last Edit: June 20, 2018, 06:30:00 PM by iceman »

Rationalist

Re: How can Imams know the Mutashabihat?
« Reply #54 on: June 22, 2018, 03:38:39 AM »
The Jews believe if they get into spritiuality they can get the secret meaning of the Torah.


iceman

Re: How can Imams know the Mutashabihat?
« Reply #55 on: June 22, 2018, 06:19:28 PM »
The Jews believe if they get into spritiuality they can get the secret meaning of the Torah.



Thanks. OK, back to the verse,

"And those who have knowledge of the Scripture"

It's obvious that we're not talking about any Messenger/s or Prophet/s here like David, Moses or Jesus. And therefore it's also obvious that "those who have knowledge of the Scripture" are people who have no Messenger status but are from the Ummah of that particular Messenger upon the Scripture was revealed. So it is clear that there are some individuals, apart from Allah and those Messengers upon whom the Scripture was revealed, who have knowledge of the Scripture.

Then the Qur'an is also a scripture just like Torah, Zaboor and Injeel. And it is established that there are individuals, apart from Allah and Messengers and Prophets, who have knowledge of those scriptures. So this should also be clear that there should be someone, apart from Allah and Muhammad s.a.w, who also has knowledge of the Scripture (Qur'an).

But how would you translate the following;   

"وَمَنْ عِندَهُ عِلْمُ الْكِتَابِ"

Would it be,

"And those who have knowledge of the Scripture"?

Or would it be,

"And he who has knowledge of the book"?

Would it be PLURAL or would it be SINGULAR? How would you translate it or what would be the actual and true translation?
« Last Edit: June 22, 2018, 06:23:23 PM by iceman »

Rationalist

Re: How can Imams know the Mutashabihat?
« Reply #56 on: June 22, 2018, 09:44:41 PM »
Iceman the reason they have knowledge is because they read the bible. Thats all it is. I don't understand how that explains how a person knows the mutashabihat through some type of supernatural power.

iceman

Re: How can Imams know the Mutashabihat?
« Reply #57 on: June 22, 2018, 10:03:27 PM »
Iceman the reason they have knowledge is because they read the bible. Thats all it is. I don't understand how that explains how a person knows the mutashabihat through some type of supernatural power.

Read the Bible, that is all? Be it the Bible or the Torah isn't the knowledge of the Scripture the hidden part of the book? You put forward a video explaining Kabbalah, isn't that the hidden part of theTorah which you need to reach a certain level or gain a special status before you understand it? It's not everyone's cup of tea.

Allah is making himself, along with those who have knowledge of the Scripture, as a witness to a very important matter  and your saying because they read the Bible and Torah and THAT IS ALL? So what's the big deal then? Surely there's something to it. Are we mitigating the matter now?

zaid_ibn_ali

Re: How can Imams know the Mutashabihat?
« Reply #58 on: June 23, 2018, 01:04:46 AM »
Iceman you have a peculiar habit of whenever you want to make a statement you do it in the form of question after questions.
What is clear is that the verse 13:43 that mentions ‘he who has knowledge of the book’ is not Ali or any other Imams from ahle bayt.
Just like Allah SWT & the prophet SAW are explicitly mentioned, then Ali or ahle bayt would have been eplicitly mentioned.
The change in stance from explicitly mentioning Allah SWT & prophet SAW but then not mentioning ‘he who has knowledge of the book’ by name(s) is proof it is reference to someone general.
Also its translated as written writ, scripture or book. Search english translations.

Rationalist

Re: How can Imams know the Mutashabihat?
« Reply #59 on: June 23, 2018, 01:41:05 AM »
Read the Bible, that is all? Be it the Bible or the Torah isn't the knowledge of the Scripture the hidden part of the book? You put forward a video explaining Kabbalah, isn't that the hidden part of theTorah which you need to reach a certain level or gain a special status before you understand it? It's not everyone's cup of tea.

I have presented the video to show how the 12er Shia understanding is deviant like the Yahoodi understanding. In some cases this applies to the Sufis as well.

Quote
Allah is making himself, along with those who have knowledge of the Scripture, as a witness to a very important matter  and your saying because they read the Bible and Torah and THAT IS ALL? So what's the big deal then? Surely there's something to it. Are we mitigating the matter now?

This verse should  be sufficient.

There was certainly in their stories a lesson for those of understanding. Never was the Qur'an a narration invented, but a confirmation of what was before it and a detailed explanation of all things and guidance and mercy for a people who believe. (Quran 12:111)

 

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