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is he a Kafir

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Shia not Rafidi

is he a Kafir
« on: May 22, 2019, 06:40:14 AM »
السلام علیکم...
brothers in islam,, it took me a while to realise that most of the shia don't believe in Distortion of the Quran
... . BUT.....
What i came to notice is that they from the inside believe that the verses have been mixed up and removed from their original places and injected somewhere else..
for example, The Verse of Purification (which according to shia starts from "Innama Yureedu") , it only and only suits fit with Shia Belief if it is to be considered a separate Ayah and same goes for The Verse of Tabligh
my question is, is anybody who believes thats verses have been a victim of changing their original places, a kafir..??
« Last Edit: May 22, 2019, 06:43:17 AM by Shia not Rafidi »
#__Shia of Ali__#
#__Sunni of Prophet Muhammad__#

Noor-us-Sunnah

Re: is he a Kafir
« Reply #1 on: May 22, 2019, 09:28:34 PM »
السلام علیکم...
brothers in islam,, it took me a while to realise that most of the shia don't believe in Distortion of the Quran
... . BUT.....
What i came to notice is that they from the inside believe that the verses have been mixed up and removed from their original places and injected somewhere else..
for example, The Verse of Purification (which according to shia starts from "Innama Yureedu") , it only and only suits fit with Shia Belief if it is to be considered a separate Ayah and same goes for The Verse of Tabligh
my question is, is anybody who believes thats verses have been a victim of changing their original places, a kafir..??
Walaikumsalam. Such person believes in Tahreef of Quran then. This belief is kufr. But making Tafkir on the particular individual is the job of qualified scholars.

iceman

Re: is he a Kafir
« Reply #2 on: May 24, 2019, 01:07:27 PM »
السلام علیکم...
brothers in islam,, it took me a while to realise that most of the shia don't believe in Distortion of the Quran
... . BUT.....
What i came to notice is that they from the inside believe that the verses have been mixed up and removed from their original places and injected somewhere else..
for example, The Verse of Purification (which according to shia starts from "Innama Yureedu") , it only and only suits fit with Shia Belief if it is to be considered a separate Ayah and same goes for The Verse of Tabligh
my question is, is anybody who believes thats verses have been a victim of changing their original places, a kafir..??

Let me answer this for you in a nutshell. Is the HOLY QURAN assembled/put together in the way and manner in how it was REVEALED? The answer is a big NO. Simple example, you're going to right a book. You start off by words, then sentences, followed by paragraphs and chapters. And some books go further by having editions and volumes. Now a publisher takes all your notes and turns it into a book and publishes it. But not in the exact manner according to the way you've written it. What would you expect especially from those who read it. What suppose to be over there is over here and vice versa. Come on, puts some sense and logic into it. Allah knows best!

muslim720

Re: is he a Kafir
« Reply #3 on: May 24, 2019, 02:24:26 PM »
Let me answer this for you in a nutshell. Is the HOLY QURAN assembled/put together in the way and manner in how it was REVEALED? The answer is a big NO. Simple example, you're going to right a book. You start off by words, then sentences, followed by paragraphs and chapters. And some books go further by having editions and volumes. Now a publisher takes all your notes and turns it into a book and publishes it. But not in the exact manner according to the way you've written it. What would you expect especially from those who read it. What suppose to be over there is over here and vice versa. Come on, puts some sense and logic into it. Allah knows best!

This fool reminds me of that old senile Shia man who shows up to Speakers Corner (along with Abu Karar) and gets his jaw shattered every time.  "Brother, there is kisa around Ali and his children, there is kisa around Ka'aba, come on, use logic".

He was screaming that point to Maulana Abdul Haleem and asked the Maulana why there is kisa over the Ka'aba.  The Maulana replied, "because the Ka'aba is cold".  I laughed for an entire minute.  The senile fool left without saying a word!
"Our coward ran from those in authority" - Iceman (admitting the truth regarding his 12th Imam)

iceman

Re: is he a Kafir
« Reply #4 on: May 24, 2019, 09:03:31 PM »
This fool reminds me of that old senile Shia man who shows up to Speakers Corner (along with Abu Karar) and gets his jaw shattered every time.  "Brother, there is kisa around Ali and his children, there is kisa around Ka'aba, come on, use logic".

He was screaming that point to Maulana Abdul Haleem and asked the Maulana why there is kisa over the Ka'aba.  The Maulana replied, "because the Ka'aba is cold".  I laughed for an entire minute.  The senile fool left without saying a word!

Could you speak sane please. Can't understand a word. Don't know what you're on about.

Noor-us-Sunnah

Re: is he a Kafir
« Reply #5 on: May 24, 2019, 09:24:20 PM »
Let me answer this for you in a nutshell. Is the HOLY QURAN assembled/put together in the way and manner in how it was REVEALED? The answer is a big NO.
That's true. But the way Quranic verses and Chapters are arranged today are as per the teaching of Prophet Muhammad(saws). In other words he was the one who ordered it to be arranged in this manner. And the one who disagrees and thinks that Sahaba intentionally or unintentionally arranged it incorrectly, goes against the chronological order the verses were revealed, then such a person hold a Kufria belief in our view.

Shia not Rafidi

Re: is he a Kafir
« Reply #6 on: May 25, 2019, 06:18:44 PM »
Now a publisher takes all your notes and turns it into a book and publishes it. But not in the exact manner according to the way you've written it
wait wait wait,, why would he do that bruh..?? after I've arranged all my notes the way i like, why would he be so dishonest in publishing it..?? your assumption only fits on it if we are to consider that publisher a treacherous and dishonest person yeah..?
letme clear it, Qur'an are the notes written down by Prophet PBUH and he arranged them in proper order, Sahaba are the Publishers right.? ok so where's the proof they didn't publish it according to the exact order the Prophet PBUH arranged it..
sorry for my bad English
« Last Edit: May 25, 2019, 06:22:38 PM by Shia not Rafidi »
#__Shia of Ali__#
#__Sunni of Prophet Muhammad__#

iceman

Re: is he a Kafir
« Reply #7 on: May 26, 2019, 12:59:51 AM »
That's true. But the way Quranic verses and Chapters are arranged today are as per the teaching of Prophet Muhammad(saws). In other words he was the one who ordered it to be arranged in this manner. And the one who disagrees and thinks that Sahaba intentionally or unintentionally arranged it incorrectly, goes against the chronological order the verses were revealed, then such a person hold a Kufria belief in our view.

"But the way Quranic verses and Chapters are arranged today are as per the teaching of Prophet Muhammad(saws). In other words he was the one who ordered it to be arranged in this manner"

Any references on this. If the Prophet s.a.w ordered the Qur'an to be arranged in this way then what about the following;

Volume 6, Book 61, Number 509 :
Narrated by Zaid bin Thabit

'Abu Bakr As-Siddiq sent for me when the people! of Yamama had been killed (i.e., a number of the Prophet's Companions who fought against Musailama). (I went to him) and found 'Umar bin Al-Khattab sitting with him. Abu Bakr then said (to me), "Umar has come to me and said: "Casualties were heavy among the Qurra' of the! Qur'an (i.e. those who knew the Quran by heart) on the day of the Battle of Yalmama, and I am afraid that more heavy casualties may take place among the Qurra' on other battlefields, whereby a large part of the Qur'an may be lost. Therefore I suggest, you (Abu Bakr) order that the Qur'an be collected." I said to 'Umar, "How can you do something which Allah's Apostle did not do?" 'Umar said, "By Allah, that is a good project. "Umar kept on urging me to accept his proposal till Allah opened my chest for it and I began to realize the good in the idea which 'Umar had realized." Then Abu Bakr said (to me). 'You are a wise young man and we do not have any suspicion about you, and you used to write the Divine Inspiration for Allah's Apostle. So you should search for the fragmentary scripts......'

Notice the following;

"Therefore I suggest, you (Abu Bakr) order that the Qur'an be collected." I said to 'Umar, "How can you do something which Allah's Apostle did not do?"

What did Umar say;

"Umar said, "By Allah, that is a good project"

Umar didn’t say that it had to be done because the Prophet s.a.w ordered it.
« Last Edit: May 26, 2019, 01:11:46 AM by iceman »

Shia not Rafidi

Re: is he a Kafir
« Reply #8 on: May 26, 2019, 08:22:22 AM »
"But the way Quranic verses and Chapters are arranged today are as per the teaching of Prophet Muhammad(saws). In other words he was the one who ordered it to be arranged in this manner"

Any references on this. If the Prophet s.a.w ordered the Qur'an to be arranged in this way then what about the following;

Volume 6, Book 61, Number 509 :
Narrated by Zaid bin Thabit

'Abu Bakr As-Siddiq sent for me when the people! of Yamama had been killed (i.e., a number of the Prophet's Companions who fought against Musailama). (I went to him) and found 'Umar bin Al-Khattab sitting with him. Abu Bakr then said (to me), "Umar has come to me and said: "Casualties were heavy among the Qurra' of the! Qur'an (i.e. those who knew the Quran by heart) on the day of the Battle of Yalmama, and I am afraid that more heavy casualties may take place among the Qurra' on other battlefields, whereby a large part of the Qur'an may be lost. Therefore I suggest, you (Abu Bakr) order that the Qur'an be collected." I said to 'Umar, "How can you do something which Allah's Apostle did not do?" 'Umar said, "By Allah, that is a good project. "Umar kept on urging me to accept his proposal till Allah opened my chest for it and I began to realize the good in the idea which 'Umar had realized." Then Abu Bakr said (to me). 'You are a wise young man and we do not have any suspicion about you, and you used to write the Divine Inspiration for Allah's Apostle. So you should search for the fragmentary scripts......'

Notice the following;

"Therefore I suggest, you (Abu Bakr) order that the Qur'an be collected." I said to 'Umar, "How can you do something which Allah's Apostle did not do?"

What did Umar say;

"Umar said, "By Allah, that is a good project"

Umar didn’t say that it had to be done because the Prophet s.a.w ordered it.
find your answer in the above given example of yours.. all that has been done is to convert it into a book form.. what's so surprising about this..??
#__Shia of Ali__#
#__Sunni of Prophet Muhammad__#

Noor-us-Sunnah

Re: is he a Kafir
« Reply #9 on: May 26, 2019, 04:46:53 PM »
"But the way Quranic verses and Chapters are arranged today are as per the teaching of Prophet Muhammad(saws). In other words he was the one who ordered it to be arranged in this manner"

Any references on this. If the Prophet s.a.w ordered the Qur'an to be arranged in this way then what about the following;

Volume 6, Book 61, Number 509 :
Narrated by Zaid bin Thabit

'Abu Bakr As-Siddiq sent for me when the people! of Yamama had been killed (i.e., a number of the Prophet's Companions who fought against Musailama). (I went to him) and found 'Umar bin Al-Khattab sitting with him. Abu Bakr then said (to me), "Umar has come to me and said: "Casualties were heavy among the Qurra' of the! Qur'an (i.e. those who knew the Quran by heart) on the day of the Battle of Yalmama, and I am afraid that more heavy casualties may take place among the Qurra' on other battlefields, whereby a large part of the Qur'an may be lost. Therefore I suggest, you (Abu Bakr) order that the Qur'an be collected." I said to 'Umar, "How can you do something which Allah's Apostle did not do?" 'Umar said, "By Allah, that is a good project. "Umar kept on urging me to accept his proposal till Allah opened my chest for it and I began to realize the good in the idea which 'Umar had realized." Then Abu Bakr said (to me). 'You are a wise young man and we do not have any suspicion about you, and you used to write the Divine Inspiration for Allah's Apostle. So you should search for the fragmentary scripts......'

Notice the following;

"Therefore I suggest, you (Abu Bakr) order that the Qur'an be collected." I said to 'Umar, "How can you do something which Allah's Apostle did not do?"

What did Umar say;

"Umar said, "By Allah, that is a good project"

Umar didn’t say that it had to be done because the Prophet s.a.w ordered it.

Your arguments were answered by your own Scholar.

https://youtu.be/A2-i3GIpejE

Watch from 29:30 to 31:00.

And the example you gave itself is your refutation, because people knew Quran by heart, which means its arrangement was known to Muslims. Hence they memorized it.

Which strengthens our view that, it's a Kufria belief to claim that verses have been incorrectly arranged deliberately.

Shia not Rafidi

Re: is he a Kafir
« Reply #10 on: May 26, 2019, 05:33:15 PM »
people knew Quran by heart, which means its arrangement was known to Muslims. Hence they memorized it.
there you go 👌
#__Shia of Ali__#
#__Sunni of Prophet Muhammad__#

iceman

Re: is he a Kafir
« Reply #11 on: May 27, 2019, 08:10:59 AM »
find your answer in the above given example of yours.. all that has been done is to convert it into a book form.. what's so surprising about this..??

"all that has been done is to convert it into a book form"

Not on the orders of the Prophet s.a.w. Why didn't the Prophet s.a.w have it done in his lifetime or ordered it to be done.

Has it been converted into a book in the way and manner it was revealed. NO. Take any book and rearrange it, a sentence or two from this paragraph and stick it over there, a paragraph from this chapter and stick it over there etc and vice versa, then tell me the book will still LOOK and MEAN the same. This is what's surprising about it. Time to wake up. Open your mind.

Noor-us-Sunnah

Re: is he a Kafir
« Reply #12 on: May 27, 2019, 03:14:35 PM »
"all that has been done is to convert it into a book form"

Not on the orders of the Prophet s.a.w. Why didn't the Prophet s.a.w have it done in his lifetime or ordered it to be done.

Has it been converted into a book in the way and manner it was revealed. NO. Take any book and rearrange it, a sentence or two from this paragraph and stick it over there, a paragraph from this chapter and stick it over there etc and vice versa, then tell me the book will still LOOK and MEAN the same. This is what's surprising about it. Time to wake up. Open your mind.

Quran is kalaam(speech of Allah) it wasn’t revealed in form of a book or tablets. So even if it wasn’t present in a complete book form , but only in the memory of believers , still it is sufficient as an evidence. And yes the arranged of verses regardless of the book , was from the Prophet(saws).

So you need to make tawbah from kufria belief you are defending. And open your eyes to see the kufr you are defending with your foolish and dumb arguments.
« Last Edit: May 27, 2019, 03:16:05 PM by Noor-us-Sunnah »

Mythbuster1

Re: is he a Kafir
« Reply #13 on: May 27, 2019, 08:44:25 PM »
Quran is kalaam(speech of Allah) it wasn’t revealed in form of a book or tablets. So even if it wasn’t present in a complete book form , but only in the memory of believers , still it is sufficient as an evidence. And yes the arranged of verses regardless of the book , was from the Prophet(saws).

So you need to make tawbah from kufria belief you are defending. And open your eyes to see the kufr you are defending with your foolish and dumb arguments.

Foolish and dumb........you sure got that right bro 😜👍👍

iceman

Re: is he a Kafir
« Reply #14 on: May 28, 2019, 04:47:38 AM »
Quran is kalaam(speech of Allah) it wasn’t revealed in form of a book or tablets. So even if it wasn’t present in a complete book form , but only in the memory of believers , still it is sufficient as an evidence. And yes the arranged of verses regardless of the book , was from the Prophet(saws).

So you need to make tawbah from kufria belief you are defending. And open your eyes to see the kufr you are defending with your foolish and dumb arguments.

You need to stop accusing others of kufr just because people have different views than yours. And then stop jumping up and down when they talk with logic and reason
and you are just narrow minded and follow the herd. Open your mind and think rationally.

iceman

Re: is he a Kafir
« Reply #15 on: May 28, 2019, 04:50:59 AM »
Foolish and dumb........you sure got that right bro 😜👍👍

Of course he's got it right. In your case that is. That's the only language he speaks and you understand. A logical argument from him and you would be wrong. 😁

Mythbuster1

Re: is he a Kafir
« Reply #16 on: May 28, 2019, 02:01:37 PM »
Of course he's got it right. In your case that is. That's the only language he speaks and you understand. A logical argument from him and you would be wrong. 😁

You haven’t got an argument or logic all you do is lie by repeatedly propagating falsehoods without authenticity and when asked to provide such you stay SILENT..........that is just DUMB!

temporarily unable or unwilling to speak.
"they stood dumb while the attacker poured out a stream of abuse"
synonyms:   speechless, tongue-tied, wordless, silent, at a loss for words, voiceless, inarticulate, taciturn, uncommunicative, untalkative, tight-lipped, close-mouthed, saying nothing; informalmum
"they stood dumb while the attacker poured out a stream of abuse"

😉

Noor-us-Sunnah

Re: is he a Kafir
« Reply #17 on: May 28, 2019, 02:36:52 PM »
You need to stop accusing others of kufr just because people have different views than yours. And then stop jumping up and down when they talk with logic and reason
and you are just narrow minded and follow the herd. Open your mind and think rationally.
Obviously a Kufria view differ with proper Islamic view. But it falls under the category of kufr, that's why it is called Kufria view. And you were refuted by your scholar, who refuted the stupidity you utter. For that, you have nothing left academic to argue with, so you want to just troll with your silly excuses.

Hadrami

Re: is he a Kafir
« Reply #18 on: May 29, 2019, 06:09:36 PM »
Has it been converted into a book in the way and manner it was revealed. NO. Take any book and rearrange it, a sentence or two from this paragraph and stick it over there, a paragraph from this chapter and stick it over there etc and vice versa, then tell me the book will still LOOK and MEAN the same. This is what's surprising about it. Time to wake up. Open your mind.

Are you saying the quran verses that we have now are scrambled all over the place?

iceman

Re: is he a Kafir
« Reply #19 on: May 30, 2019, 01:09:16 AM »
You haven’t got an argument or logic all you do is lie by repeatedly propagating falsehoods without authenticity and when asked to provide such you stay SILENT..........that is just DUMB!

temporarily unable or unwilling to speak.
"they stood dumb while the attacker poured out a stream of abuse"
synonyms:   speechless, tongue-tied, wordless, silent, at a loss for words, voiceless, inarticulate, taciturn, uncommunicative, untalkative, tight-lipped, close-mouthed, saying nothing; informalmum
"they stood dumb while the attacker poured out a stream of abuse"

😉

What ever 😊

 

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