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Qur'an announces the Imams by name!

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Hani

Qur'an announces the Imams by name!
« on: September 05, 2017, 08:34:37 AM »
Salam,


In this thread I'll take the Shia methodology in understanding this verse:


According to the Shia understanding of this verse, Ibrahim (as) was made an Imam, promoted to a special status! He also asked God if there will be other Imams from his progeny.


{And [mention, O Muhammad], when Abraham was tried by his Lord with commands and he fulfilled them. [Allah] said, "Indeed, I will make you an Imam for the people." [Abraham] said, "And of my descendants?" [Allah] said, "My covenant does not include the wrongdoers."} [2:124]


The Shia say the Imams from his progeny are `Ali and his sons. We have glad tidings, the Qur'an does in fact mention the Imams from the progeny of Ibrahim (as) by name!


After mentioning how God saved Ibrahim (as) from the fire, it says:


{And We gave him Isaac and Jacob in addition, and all [of them] We made righteous. - And We made them Imams guiding by Our command. And We inspired to them the doing of good deeds, establishment of prayer, and giving of zakah; and they were worshippers of Us.} [21:72-73]


So there you have it, not `Ali or any of his sons, turns out the Imams according to the Qur'an are Ibrahim (as) and 2 prophets from Ibrahim's (as) progeny, Ishaq & Ya`qub (as). They all received revelation as well, this seems to be the defining ability of an Imam.


In the Qur'an, we've not seen yet anyone be awarded the rank of "Imam" (acc to Shia understanding) while NOT being a prophet. Based on this Qur'anic concept, an Imam can either be that of goodness or that of evil, the evil ones are impostors while the good ones are the prophets.


Salam,
« Last Edit: September 05, 2017, 08:37:26 AM by Hani »
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

Rationalist

Re: Qur'an announces the Imams by name!
« Reply #1 on: September 07, 2017, 05:37:30 PM »
Najh al balagha is a compilation of Ali's sermons and even that has nothing about the Imamate of 12, which means Ali never spoke about it.

Link

Re: Qur'an announces the Imams by name!
« Reply #2 on: September 09, 2017, 09:18:26 PM »
Najh al balagha is a compilation of Ali's sermons and even that has nothing about the Imamate of 12, which means Ali never spoke about it.

The detials of Salah are not found in Nahjul Balahga, I guess Imam Ali never taught Salah either?
Love of the family of Yaseen is the light of the heavens and the earth.

Hani

Re: Qur'an announces the Imams by name!
« Reply #3 on: September 09, 2017, 09:39:39 PM »
Najh al balagha is a compilation of Ali's sermons and even that has nothing about the Imamate of 12, which means Ali never spoke about it.

The detials of Salah are not found in Nahjul Balahga, I guess Imam Ali never taught Salah either?

Actually Ali talks about quite a bit about Salah in Nahj Al Balaghah.
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

Link

Re: Qur'an announces the Imams by name!
« Reply #4 on: September 09, 2017, 09:54:04 PM »
Najh al balagha is a compilation of Ali's sermons and even that has nothing about the Imamate of 12, which means Ali never spoke about it.

The detials of Salah are not found in Nahjul Balahga, I guess Imam Ali never taught Salah either?

True and he talks a lot about Wilayah of Ahlulbayt and their authority as well, and philosophy of it.

Actually Ali talks about quite a bit about Salah in Nahj Al Balaghah.
Love of the family of Yaseen is the light of the heavens and the earth.

Link

Re: Qur'an announces the Imams by name!
« Reply #5 on: September 09, 2017, 09:55:22 PM »
Hani, Imam Ali talks about Wilayah of Ahlulbayt (as) as well and emphasizes on their leadership, and even emphasizes on what I emphasize on, not to mix with their leadership others!
Love of the family of Yaseen is the light of the heavens and the earth.

Hani

Re: Qur'an announces the Imams by name!
« Reply #6 on: September 10, 2017, 12:08:33 AM »
Dude you're confusing yourself, the guy told you "`Ali NEVER talks about divine appointment of 12 Imams in the book" You counter by saying "He also never talks about details of Salat in the book" I reply "He DOES talk quite a bit about Salat in the book" For example:

[Lead the Zuhr prayer till the shadow of a wall becomes equal to the height of the wall, the Asr prayers can be performed till the sun is still bright and enough time of the day is left for a person to cover a distance of six miles. The Maghrib prayers should be performed when people break their fasts and when Hajj pilgrims return from Arafat. And the time for Ice prayers is when the red glow of the even twilight disappears from the West, till one-third of the night is still left. The morning prayers are to be performed when there appears enough light of the dawn for a man to recognize the face of his companion.]

And

[Offer your prayers in their respectful times, do not rush through them, and never delay in offering them. Remember that piety and nobleness of all your activities are subject to sincerity and punctuality of your prayers.]

And

[Pledge yourself with prayer and remain steady on it; offer prayer as much as possible and seek nearness (of Allah) through it, because it is, (imposed) upon the believers as (a) timed ordinance (Qur'an 4:103). Have you not heard the reply of the people of Hell when they were asked: What hath brought you into the hell? They shall say: We were not of those who offered the regular prayers (to Allah)! (Qur'an, 74:42-43). Certainly, prayer drops out sins like the dropping of leaves (of trees), and removes them as ropes are removed from the necks of cattle. The Messenger of Allah - the peace and blessing of Allah he upon him and his descendants - likened it to a hot bath situated at the door of a person who bathes in it five times a day. Will then any dirt remain on him?]


Among others...
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

Link

Re: Qur'an announces the Imams by name!
« Reply #7 on: September 10, 2017, 12:12:41 AM »
Salam Hani, but all the nitty details of Salah are not found in nahul balagha, and you know that is my point.

He talks about Wilayah of Ahlulbayt (as) in many ways with respect to many subjects.  There is no doubt there are many details of Wilayah of Ahlulbayt (as) therein as well! Yet it is true the number and names of the rest of Imams are not found in Nahjul balagha although the number though not stated has allusions to it both with respect to hadiths from the Prophets and verses in Quran.

Love of the family of Yaseen is the light of the heavens and the earth.

Hani

Re: Qur'an announces the Imams by name!
« Reply #8 on: September 10, 2017, 12:17:05 AM »
You said `Ali emphasizes on the divine concept of Imamah that the Shia have, whereas in the book we find the exact opposite:

He says:

[Whoever places himself in a position of Imamate, he should start by teaching himself before teaching others. He should discipline with his actions before disciplining with his words, and one who teaches and disciplines himself is more entitled to esteem than one who teaches and disciplines others]

And

[Verily, those who swore allegiance to Abu Bakr, Omar, and Uthman have sworn allegiance to me on the same basis on which they swore allegiance to them. Thus, who was present has no choice (to consider), and he who was absent has no right to reject; and consultation is confined to the Muhajiroon and the Ansar. If they agree on an individual and take him to be Caliph it will be deemed to mean Allah’s satisfaction.]

And

[Leave me and seek someone else. We are facing a matter which has (several) faces and colors, which neither hearts can stand nor intelligence can accept. Clouds are hovering over the sky, and faces are not discernible. You should know that if I respond to you I would lead you as I know and would not listen to the utterance of any speaker or the reproof of any reprover. If you leave me then I am the same as you are. It is possible I would listen to and obey whomever you make in charge of your affairs. I am better for you as a counselor than as chief.]
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

Hani

Re: Qur'an announces the Imams by name!
« Reply #9 on: September 10, 2017, 12:20:20 AM »
Salam Hani, but all the nitty details of Salah are not found in nahul balagha, and you know that is my point.

He talks about Wilayah of Ahlulbayt (as) in many ways with respect to many subjects.  There is no doubt there are many details of Wilayah of Ahlulbayt (as) therein as well! Yet it is true the number and names of the rest of Imams are not found in Nahjul balagha although the number though not stated has allusions to it both with respect to hadiths from the Prophets and verses in Quran.



He doesn't have to talk about the nitty gritty details of Salat just like he doesn't have to talk about the nitty details of leadership and politics. HOWEVER, he doesn't talk AT ALL about the divine leadership of 12, not numbers, not names, not that they're appointed nor that they're infallible, not that there can't be more than one at once, not that they're from Husayn's lineage, not that they're from Fatimah, not their miracles etc.. NOTHING! Forget about details, there's no mentioned of the concept altogether. The above examples I gave about Salat have quite a bunch of details in them, I can learn a good number of things about Salat from this, what about the 12th Imam? Ghaybah? etc.. Nothing I recall.
« Last Edit: September 10, 2017, 12:21:41 AM by Hani »
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

Link

Re: Qur'an announces the Imams by name!
« Reply #10 on: September 10, 2017, 12:48:13 AM »
1:

They are the trustees of His secrets, shelter for His affairs, source of knowledge about Him, centre of His wisdom, valleys for His books and mountains of His religion. With them Allah straightened the bend of religion’s back and removed the trembling of its limbs.



2.

None in the Islamic community can be taken at par with the family of Mohammad. One who was under their obligation cannot be matched with them. They are the foundation of religion and pillar of Belief. The forward runner has to turn back to them while the follower has to overtake them. They possess the chief characteristics for vicegerency. In their favour exists the will and succession (of the Prophet). This is the time when right has returned to its owner and diverted to its centre of return.


3.

and he certainly knew that my position in relation to it was the same as the position of the axis in relation to the hand-mill. The flood water flows down from me and the bird cannot fly upto me.


4.

There is no doubt that Allah sent down the Prophet (S) as a guide with an eloquent Book and a standing command. No one will be ruined by it except one who ruins himself. Certainly, only doubtful innovations cause ruin except those from which Allah may protect. In Allah's authority lies the safety of your affairs. Therefore, render Him such obedience as is neither blameworthy nor insincere. By Allah, you must do so, otherwise Allah will take away from you the power of Islam, and will never thereafter return it to you till it reverts to others.
Certainly, these people are in agreement in disliking my authority. I will carry on till I perceive disunity among you; because if, in spite of the unsoundness of their view, they succeed, the whole organisation of the Muslims will be shattered. They are hankering after this world out of jealousy against him on whom Allah has bestowed it. So they intend reverting the matters on their backs (pre-Islamic period), while on us it is obligatory, for your sake, to abide by the Book of Allah (Qur'an), the Sublime, and the conduct of the Prophet of Allah, to stand by His rights and the revival of his sunnah.




5.



We are the tree of prophethood, staying place of (Divine) Message, descending place of angels, mines of knowledge and the sources of wisdom. Our supporter and lover awaits mercy while our enemy and he who hates us awaits wrath.


6.

No one preceded me in inviting people to truthfulness, in giving consideration to kinship and practising generosity. So, hear my word and preserve what I say. Maybe you will see soon after today that over this matter swords will be drawn and pledges will be broken, so much so that some of you will become leaders of the people of misguidance and followers of people of ignorance.

7.

Allah deputed prophets and distinguished them with His revelation. He made them as pleas for Him among His creation, so that there should not remain any excuse for people. He invited people to the right path through a truthful tongue. You should know that Allah fully knows creation. Not that He was not aware of what they concealed from among their hidden secrets and inner feelings, but in order to try them as to “..which of them performs the best deeds” (18:7), so that there is reward in respect of good acts and chastisement in respect of evil acts.

Where are those who falsely and unjustly claimed that they are deeply versed in knowledge, as against us, although Allah raised us in position and kept them down, bestowed upon us knowledge but deprived them, and entered us (in the fortress of knowledge) but kept them out. With us guidance is to be sought and blindness (of misguidance) is to be changed into brightness. Surely the leaders will be from the Quraysh. They have been planted in this line through Hashim. It would not suit others nor would others be suitable as heads of affairs.


They have adopted this world and abandoned the next world; left clean water and drunk stinking water. I can almost see their wicked one 1 who committed unlawful acts, associated himself with them, befriended them and accorded with them till his hair grew grey and his nature acquired their tinge. He proceeded onward emitting foam like a torrential stream not caring whom he drowned, or, like fire in straw, without realising what he burnt.
Where are the minds which seek light from the lamps of guidance, and the eyes which look at minarets of piety? Where are the hearts dedicated to Allah, and devoted to the obedience of Allah? They are all crowding towards worldly vanities and quarrelling over unlawful issues. The ensigns of Paradise and Hell have been raised for them but they have turned their faces away from Paradise and proceeded to Hell by dint of their performances. Allah called them but they showed dislike and ran away. When Satan called them they responded and proceeded (towards him).


8.


The riser has risen, the sparkler has sparkled, the appearer has appeared and the curved has been straightened. Allah has replaced one people with another and one day with another. We awaited these changes as the famine-stricken await the rain. Certainly the leaders are the vicegerents of Allah over His creatures and they make the creatures know Allah. No one will enter Paradise except he who knows them and knows Him, and no one will enter Hell except he who denies them and denies Him.

Allah the Glorified, has distinguished you with Islam and has chosen you for it. This is because it is the name of safety and the collection of honour. Allah the Glorified, chose its way and disclosed its pleas through open knowledge and secret maxims. Its (Qur'an) wonders are not exhausted and its delicacies do not end. It contains blossoming bounties and lamps of darkness. (The doors of) virtues cannot be opened save with its keys, nor can gloom be dispelled save with its lamps. Allah has protected its inaccessible points (from enemies) and allowed grazing (to its followers) in its pastures. It contains cover (from the ailment of misguidance) for the seeker of cure and full support for the seeker of support.


And there is more....

Enough for now I hope!
Love of the family of Yaseen is the light of the heavens and the earth.

Hani

Re: Qur'an announces the Imams by name!
« Reply #11 on: September 10, 2017, 03:43:15 AM »
Detailed Answers to your 8 points:

1-
هُمْ مَوْضِعُ سِرِّهِ، وَلَجَأُ أَمْرِهِ، وَعَيْبَةُ عِلْمِهِ، وَمَوْئِلُ حُكْمِهِ، وَكُهُوفُ كُتُبِهِ، وَجِبَالُ دِينِه، بِهِمْ أَقَامَ انْحِناءَ ظَهْرِهِ، وَأذْهَبَ ارْتِعَادَ فَرَائِصِهِ

First quote has nothing special, he's praising the household in general against the parties of Khawarij and Umayyads who waged a war against him. He's reminding his followers that he is a relative of the Prophet (saw), that the Prophet's (saw) family have a special station due to their closeness, they knew his secrets (saw), they were like caves that contained much of his knowledge (saw), he describes them as mountains/pillars that help hold the religion upright.

No one disagrees with this, no mention of divine appointment. Little do you know that `Ali's definition of "Ahlul-Bayt" is not to do with the "12 divine people".

In Letter #9 (248), we find Ali saying that when the battle got heated, the Prophet – peace be upon him – would use Ahlulbayt to defend his companions. He then lists their names, and they include Ubaida bin Al-Harith, Hamza bin Abdul Muttalib, and Ja’far bin Abi Talib.

Similarly, we find `Ali praising the Companions in other sermons:

"I have seen the companions of the Prophet – peace be upon him and his household – and I do not find anyone from you resembling them. They began the day with dust on their heads and passed through the night in prostration and standing in prayers. Sometimes they put down their foreheads and sometimes their cheeks. With the recollection of their resurrection it seemed as though they stood on live coal. It seemed that in between their eyes there were signs like knees of goats, resulting from long prostrations. When Allah was mentioned their eyes flowed freely until their shirt collars were drenched. They trembled for fear of punishment and hope of reward as the tree trembles on the day of stormy wind."

And

“By Allah, they nurtured Islam with their generous hands and eloquent tongues as a year old calf is nurtured.”

2-
لا يُقَاسُ بِآلِ مُحَمَّد (عليهم السلام) مِنْ هذِهِ الاُمَّةِ أَحَدٌ، وَلا يُسَوَّى بِهِمْ مَنْ جَرَتْ نِعْمَتُهُمْ عَلَيْهِ أبَداً
هُمْ أَسَاسُ الدِّينِ، وَعِمَادُ اليَقِينِ، إِلَيْهمْ يَفِيءُ الغَالي، وَبِهِمْ يَلْحَقُ التَّالي، وَلَهُمْ خَصَائِصُ حَقِّ الوِلايَةِ، وَفِيهِمُ الوَصِيَّةُ وَالوِرَاثَةُ، الاْنَ إِذْ رَجَعَ الحَقُّ إِلَى أَهْلِهِ، وَنُقِلَ إِلَى مُنْتَقَلِهِ

This is a part of the same sermon as above, still praising the household and showing their virtues, he wants to prove that the Khawarij and Umayyads are not to be compared to the family of the Prophet (saw). He views banu Hashim as having a special station not to be compared with others since prophet-hood and its blessing started with that household from Muhammad (saw) and thus all the nation owes them.

He says about the household (not limited to 12 people as proven above) that "They possess the characteristics enabling them the right of leadership."

This means, that they are qualified to be leaders due to their closeness and relation with the Prophet (saw). The main characteristics were clearly highlighted by `Ali in sermon 160 where he declares why he thinks he's more deserving than others: "we were the loftiest in lineage and the strongest in relationship with the Messenger of Allah".

Is `Ali excluding others from having a position of leadership? Not at all, he's only saying that he possesses such qualities that make him the best candidate. If I say "So and so has characteristics that give him the right to leadership" I'm not excluding others.

He speaks of others right to leadership in other sermons and speaks of their legitimacy:

[Whoever places himself in a position of Imamate, he should start by teaching himself before teaching others. He should discipline with his actions before disciplining with his words, and one who teaches and disciplines himself is more entitled to esteem than one who teaches and disciplines others]

Meaning, he is advising anyone who gets appointed as Imam, to discipline himself and says even those who discipline others are entitled to some esteem.

[Verily, those who swore allegiance to Abu Bakr, Omar, and Uthman have sworn allegiance to me on the same basis on which they swore allegiance to them. Thus, who was present has no choice (to consider), and he who was absent has no right to reject; and consultation is confined to the Muhajiroon and the Ansar. If they agree on an individual and take him to be Caliph it will be deemed to mean Allah’s satisfaction.]

Here he talks of the process of electing an Imam, how the choice is in the hands of the Muhajirs and Ansars and this is pleasing to God.

Then he says: "They received the Wasiyyah(will) and Wirathah(inheritance)." The belief that `Ali is the Wasi is popular as the Prophet (saw) willed to him before his death to pay off any debts he had and thus he as referred as Wasi. The inheritance he speaks of is clearly not regular inheritance of material possessions but that of knowledge and wisdom.

The Muslims never disagree with any of the above, we believe `Ali is the Wasi and that he received a will in this regard, we believe the household had scholars and the scholars are the heirs to prophets.

Finally, he says: "This is the time when right has returned to its owner and diverted to its centre of return." This is because `Ali viewed himself as most deserving and he believed he had more right. He lost his chance when competing with `Uthman and now he had finally been promoted to the position he thought he deserved most.

3-
أَمَا وَالله لَقَدْ تَقَمَّصَها ابْنُ اَبى قُحافَةَ ، وَإِنَّهُ لَيَعْلَمُ أَنَّ مَحَلِّيَ مِنهَا مَحَلُّ القُطْبِ مِنَ الرَّحَا

This is Shaqshaqiyyah, same as above, he believed he had the most right. No mention of him being appointed or infallible or 12 Imams.

4-
إنَّ اللهَ تَعالَى بَعَثَ رَسُولاً هَادِياً بِكِتَاب نَاطِق وَأَمْر قَائم، لاَ يَهْلِكُ عَنْهُ إلاَّ هَالِكٌ، وَإنَّ الْمُبْتَدَعَاتِ الْمُشَبَّهَاتِ هُنَّ الْمُهْلِكَاتُ إلاَّ مَا حَفِظَ اللهُ مِنْهَا، وَإنَّ فِي سُلْطَانِ اللهِ عِصْمَةً لاِمْرِكُمْ، فَأَعْطُوهُ طَاعَتَكُمْ غَيْرَ مُلَوَّمَة وَلاَ مُسْتَكْرَه بِهَا
وَاللهِ لَتَفْعَلُنَّ أَوْ لَيَنْقُلَنَّ اللهُ عَنْكُمْ سُلْطَانَ الاْسْلاَمِ، ثُمَّ لاَ يَنْقُلُهُ إلَيكُمْ أَبَداً حَتَّى يَأْرِزَ الاْمْرُ إلَى غَيْرِكُمْ

Here `Ali is complaining again about his opponents and trying to encourage his followers to give him more obedience. He refers them to obey "Sultan Allah" which is God's authority, this is a common expression to refer to the authority and power of Allah that he has bestowed upon Islam. He intends by this to rally them behind him as he often told them that he is the leader of Muslims and thus the one fulfilling the laws of God on earth. He then threatens them that God will remove all power from this religion of the people disobey God.

What we mean by common expression, is that it's often used, for example when `Umar distributed spoils of war, a man came and pushed all others away and began taking for himself, `Umar got angry at his injustice and told him:

 إنك أقبلت ، لاتهابن سلطان الله في الارض ، فأحببت بأن أعلمك أن سلطان الله لا يهابك
"You came without fear from God's authority(Sultan Allah) on earth; I am pleased to inform you that God's authority fears you not!"

No mention of divinely appointed Imams or anything remotely similar.

5-
نَحْنُ شَجَرَةُ النُّبُوَّةِ، وَمَحَطُّ الرِّسَالَةِ، وَمُخْتَلَفُ الْمَلاَئِكَةِ، وَمَعَادِنُ الْعِلْمِ، وَيَنَابِيعُ الْحُكْمِ، نَاصِرُنا وَمُحِبُّنَا يَنْتَظِرُ الرَّحْمَةَ، وَعَدُوُّنا وَمُبْغِضُنَا يَنْتَظِرُ السَّطْوَةَ

Nothing new, just the common praise for the household, that the message descended among them and thus angels used to descend inside their houses to reveal prophesies and wisdom to the Prophet (saw). He warned that their enemies have incurred God's wrath.

6-
لَنْ يُسْرِعَ أَحَدٌ قَبْلِي إِلَى دَعْوَةِ حَقٍّ، وَصِلَةِ رَحِم، وَعَائِدَةِ كَرَم. فَاسْمَعُوا قَوْلي، وَعُوا مَنْطِقِي، عَسَى أَنْ تَرَوْا هذَا الاْمْرَ مِنْ بَعْدِ هذَا الْيَوْمِ تُنْتَضَى فِيهِ السُّيُوفُ، وَتُخَانُ فِيهِ الْعُهُودُ، حَتَّى يَكُونَ بَعْضُكُمْ أَئِمَّةً لاِهْلِ الضَّلاَلَةِ، وَشِيعَةً لاِهْلِ الْجَهَالَةِ

This was some advice he gave to the others during his speech when he participated in consultation. This was take from a much bigger Hadith whose original source I have on me, nothing in it is discussing divine appointment or 12 Imams.

7-
إِنَّ الاْئِمَّةَ مِنْ قُرَيش غُرِسُوا فِي هذَا الْبَطْنِ مِنْ هَاشِم، لاَ تَصْلُحُ عَلَى سِوَاهُمْ، وَلاَ تَصْلُحُ الْوُلاَةُ مِنْ غَيْرِهمْ

He confirms the Prophet's (saw) famous narration "The Imams are from Quraysh" then adds that those who are suited for this position must be from banu Hashim. This is a clear addition to the popular narration and conflicts with other statements he made about the choice of the Muhajirin and Ansar. Also limiting it to Banu Hashim generally instead of Husayn's progeny makes it sound more like a Zaydi fabrication. Eitherway, we can say that he meant that they are most worthy of it due to their closeness since they're the Prophet's (saw) relatives, that he thinks it's only proper for them to hold such a position as Hashemites, nothing to highlight a specific divine appointment of individuals by the Prophet (saw).

8-
وَإِنَّمَا الاَئِمَّةُ قُوَّامُ اللهِ عَلَى خَلْقِهِ، وَعُرَفَاؤُهُ عَلَى عِبَادِهِ، لاَ يَدْخُلُ الْجَنَّةَ إِلاَّ مَنْ عَرَفَهُمْ وَعَرَفُوهُ، وَلاَ يَدْخُلُ النَّارَ إِلاَّ منْ أَنْكَرَهُمْ وَأَنْكَرُوهُ

Here he clarifies that he awaited the time where he would finally reach Caliphate, as he actively sought it based on popular historical texts.

He says: "Imams are God's vicegerents over His creatures" Meaning, they conduct their matters and resolve their issues in the way God outlined (in Qur'an and Sunnah).

And he says: "And those who oversee the affairs of His servants" Meaning, they are well aware of the problems, needs and conditions of their subjects.

Finally he says: "No one enters heaven except one who recognizes them and they recognize him; Likewise, no one enters hell except one who denies them and they deny him." This is in reference to the popular narration by the Prophet (saw): "Whoever dies not recognizing the Imam of his time shall die a death of ignorance." Emphasizing the need to be united behind one leader at all times.

Now that we've given simple interpretations to all the above, can you please show me where `Ali mentions that:

A- He was appointed as an Imam.
B- Imams must be immune to error.
C- The total number must be 12.
D- They are from Husayn's progeny only.


If you don't find the above, know that it's because Nahj ul Balaghah is a Zaydi book, not a Twelver book.

عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

Hani

Re: Qur'an announces the Imams by name!
« Reply #12 on: September 10, 2017, 03:47:32 AM »
Talk about going off topic! Usually Link jumps at Qur'anic topic, except when those topics conflict with his divine analysis, then he ignores the topic and discusses the story book Nahj-ul-Balaghah.
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

Link

Re: Qur'an announces the Imams by name!
« Reply #13 on: September 10, 2017, 04:11:23 AM »
Oh, I see now what you guys mean Imams (as) are not in Quran, it's that you guys can play the obtuse card...ok I understand.

Love of the family of Yaseen is the light of the heavens and the earth.

Hani

Re: Qur'an announces the Imams by name!
« Reply #14 on: September 10, 2017, 10:54:47 PM »
Oh, I see now what you guys mean Imams (as) are not in Quran, it's that you guys can play the obtuse card...ok I understand.



Let's get back on track, the opening post above shows us three prophets who became Imams, three Imams who received revelation.

Can you show from the Qur'an, that when Ibrahim (as) asked for Imams from his lineage, the Imams in question were other than his actual direct progeny such as his son and grandson the two prophets mentioned clearly by God? Is there a reason to believe many others from his progeny were also Imams or is prophethood sufficient?

Can you show us in the Qur'an, an Imam who was not previously a prophet?

Can you show us an Imam in the Qur'an who does not receive revelation? Taking into consideration the consensus of the Imamis that Ali and his children are only taught but do not receive revelation.
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

Link

Re: Qur'an announces the Imams by name!
« Reply #15 on: September 10, 2017, 11:16:53 PM »
Let's get back on track, the opening post above shows us three prophets who became Imams, three Imams who received revelation.

True, but it also includes his cousin Lut when it follows that by "And Lut", and Ismael. And indeed all Prophets became leaders when they ascended to certainty and the fortitude of being the utmost submission to God which is the full embrace of God's Name and death of all other than him.


Quote

Can you show from the Qur'an, that when Ibrahim (as) asked for Imams from his lineage, the Imams in question were other than his actual direct progeny such as his son and grandson the two prophets mentioned clearly by God?

They were from his family, but Qurans shows aside from the chosen families, is the chosen families are all linked back to other chosen families.... and Ismael was pivotal in that regard, and so the reason why God made him born of Hajar first, instead of Sarah who is on par with Abraham,  is because he wanted the chosen family of Abraham to be from Jacob (like Yusuf) and the family of Jacob includes Sarah, Ismael, Isaac and Yusuf and whatever Messenger followed that is unamed in Quran, but that it reminds that Abraham was praying that a Messenger would come from Ismael's offspring, and he prayed that a way and course would come from Ismael's offspring down the line, just as Abraham was a way/course to God, as Quran emphasizes on Abraham being a way/course to emphasize what it means by the chosen families include Abraham's being a way or each of them a way from another perspective.

And indeed Moses was expected, and so there was reminder of him, and the succession of Moses was obviously expected,  and that Moses was savior and who would found the leaders from the people who were oppressed in the land.

And indeed Mohammad was expected, and so the prayer in this place, is reminding that the True Leaders and Kings,  has to come from the offspring of Abraham somehow, but that Ismael going to Becca and living there was for a purpose. That Hajjar didn't suffer due to jealousy of Sarah who is pure and exaled and of the chosen household of blessings of God and his mercy.

Rather it was a plan from God and all these distortions of the purpose of Ismael, God manifests and annuls.




Is there a reason to believe many others from his progeny were also Imams or is prophethood sufficient?


There is good reason to believe there are leaders from God as there is no other holders of authority or vicegerents in reality than the light God appoints us to follow.

Among the good reasons is 4:59. Among the good reasons is many Surahs in Quran which emphasize on the leadership of the family of Abraham to prove the chosen way and leaders who guide by the truth in Bani-Israel, that guide and manifest the Twelve ways after Mohammad, who were but one way and one ship and one door from another perspective.

And among the reasons is because God is not emphasizing their role of leadership to end it, but to continue it although sealing revelations as a mercy and favor to humanity for many reasons of wisdom, which the Quran elaborates on.

And the reason and wisdom of the one who will unite humanity and perfect their intellect through a revelation revealed 14000 years ago is more wise then revealing a revelation in this age. It is a best and most elaborate plan, when refer back to God and the Messenger, this would be the best end and best way,  as the Quran is designed with the Ulil-Amr as authorities and religious guidance.

Among the reasons is 5:55. Among the reasons is Suratal Inshirah. There is plenty of reasons.  The problem is you are at this point not willing to accept of them including the message of thaqalain and appointment of Ali as Mawla just as Mohammad is Mawla of believers, and Allah (swt) is the Mawla of Mohammad in a way Mohammad is not Mawla of Allah (swt).
Quote
Can you show us in the Qur'an, an Imam who was not previously a prophet?

The Quran to my knowledge only manifests the 12 Successors of the Seal Prophets to be not that,  everyone else, it has not explicitly stated they are not Prophets. And it makes sense more to me that in the past, as revelation was not sealed to be revealed to humanity, that all leaders would be Prophets and the wisdom of Prophethood would mean God would verify them with revelations as well and they worked with revelations from God.

But the Imams (as) and wisdom of Quran includes putting an end to revelations, and the whole wisdom included something that must be done differently to break the cycle of which revelations were distored and abandoned.

That God is designing a plan that cannot be stopped, that Mohammad's religion would be superior and take over all religions, and that the divisions and hatred would stop eventually on the day of rising of the Qaim.

There is no doubt that oppression happens time and time again and that is upon God through an appointed saviour, to save them, and is upon God to deliver the believers, and has shown the method of past, to analogy of what will take the whole world and an event the whole world must prepare to face or ignore only to their perdition.
Love of the family of Yaseen is the light of the heavens and the earth.

Hani

Re: Qur'an announces the Imams by name!
« Reply #16 on: September 13, 2017, 02:06:51 AM »
I read your response, due to lack of time I'll provide a very quick but sufficient reply.

A- You said that it also includes "Lut", I say: It is VERY EASY to argue that NO it does not, that the second verse was simply talking about the last two men mentioned. Lut (as) was only mentioned since he shares in common that he was saved in the holy land, the verse then begins talking about Ishaq and Ya`qub (as) whom God Has made Imams.

This is what the linguist al-Tabari wrote and is actually the stronger explanation linguistically speaking as is apparent from the Arabic text:

وقوله: { وَجَعَلْناهُمْ أئمَّةً يَهْدُونَ بأمْرِنا } يقول تعالـى ذكره: وجعلنا إبراهيـم وإسحاق ويعقوب أئمة يؤتـمّ بهم فـي الـخير فـي طاعة الله فـي اتبـاع أمره ونهيه، ويُقْتَدَى بهم، ويُتَّبَعون علـيه

Shia philosopher al-Tabtaba'i agrees and says "It is apparent that this means only Ibrahim, Ishaq and Ya`qub."

قوله تعالى: { وجعلناهم أئمه يهدون بأمرنا } إلى آخر الآية. الظاهر - كما يشير إليه ما يدل من الآيات على جعل الإِمامة في عقب إبراهيم عليه السلام - رجوع الضمير في { جعلناهم } إلى إبراهيم وإسحاق ويعقوب

B- You say: "They were from his family, but Qurans shows aside from the chosen families, is the chosen families are all linked back to other chosen families"

That link doesn't necessarily have to be that Imamah is granted to the other families, they can be linked with piety, knowledge and Taqwa.

C- The large paragraph you write below this does not answer my question with any evidence. It doesn't show that there were supposed to be Imams other than the two mentioned after Ibrahim (as).

This opens a new question, the Qu'ran shows that Imams are ONLY sons of each-other, can you present proof that `Ali being a cousin of Muhammad (saw) is entitled for succession as Imam? There's no precedent as far as the Qur'an so you're inventing things AGAIN.

D- To answer the needs for Imams and not just prophets, you list 4:59 and 5:55.

These two verses are not sufficient or clear evidences as to why Imams are needed and the job couldn't be fulfilled simply by prophets. First verse clearly highlights the fallibility of rulers, doesn't call them "Imams", second verse doesn't have anything to do with the subject.

E- You write "The Quran to my knowledge only manifests the 12 Successors of the Seal Prophets to be not that,  everyone else, it has not explicitly stated they are not Prophets. And it makes sense more to me that in the past, as revelation was not sealed to be revealed to humanity, that all leaders would be Prophets and the wisdom of Prophethood would mean God would verify them with revelations as well and they worked with revelations from God."

This sounds like it conflicts with your belief about Talut being an early example of Imams? He was clearly not a prophet previously. Also you sound desperate to find any random reason to explain this, an intellectual will not find this sufficient.

Get back to me when you have better answers.
« Last Edit: September 13, 2017, 04:14:45 AM by Hani »
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

Rationalist

Re: Qur'an announces the Imams by name!
« Reply #17 on: September 13, 2017, 02:33:36 AM »

Najh al balagha is a compilation of Ali's sermons and even that has nothing about the Imamate of 12, which means Ali never spoke about it.

Salah is mutawatir within the entire ummah. So why would need to give a sermon on how to pray to Muslims who have been Muslim for 20+ years?

Also, Najh Al Balagha hints towards Imamate from Imam Hassan (as) as well.

In the battle of Siffin Amir al-mu'minin saw Imam al-Hasan proceeding rapidly to fight, then he said:
Hold back this young man on my behalf, lest he causes my ruin, because I am loath to send these two (meaning al-Hasan and al-Husayn) towards death, lest the descending line of the Prophet - may Allah bless him and his descendants - is cut away by their death.
as-Sayyid ar-Radi says: Amir al-mu'minin's words "amliku `anni hadha'l- ghulam" (i.e. "Hold back this young man on my behalf") represents the highest and the most eloquent form of expression.
(Nahj Al Balagha Sermon 206)
« Last Edit: September 13, 2017, 02:35:12 AM by Rationalist »

 

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