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Shia Mufassir confirms that Sahaba Changed the Quran

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Ameen

Re: Shia Mufassir confirms that Sahaba Changed the Quran
« Reply #20 on: February 14, 2015, 02:08:20 PM »
Ok brother Hani. The answer to your first question, do I believe that the Quran is altered/tampered with??? The Answer is No I do not. Is this satisfactory for you???

Is there a possibility that people tried to alter/tamper it??? Yes ofcourse there was a danger/threat and it did exist. Otherwise what was the point in defending and protecting it.

Enemies to the final revelation and the final Messenger (pbuh) did exist. First they were openly known as Mushriks and kafirs of Mecca and later on they became Muslims and Munafiqs of Mecca.

Not all people who became companions of the Prophet (pbuh) became companions for the right and same reason and their level of Eemaan wasn't the same.

Why did Allah not protect and defend the other revelations??? You claim other revelations were corrupt, why??? Were they not important??? Were they not worthy to be protected???

You have to believe in those revations as well as this one to be a Muslim, otherwise what is the point of Islam and being a Muslim???

I will continue this!























Ameen

Re: Shia Mufassir confirms that Sahaba Changed the Quran
« Reply #21 on: February 14, 2015, 02:56:07 PM »
Brothers what is the point of an hidden Imam??? You are absolutely right that was is the point of an hidden Imam???

Brothers try to learn and get to know what Shiaism and Shia belief is all about. Refrain from gossip and rumours and those who wish to raise suspicion and to cast doubt to cause mischief.

The 12th Imam (as) is not hidden. He is not in hiding. These words are used by anti Shia propagandists. The 12th Imam (as) went in to occultation by the will of Allah.

What does this mean??? He was taken away from the Ummah due to the Ummah's lack of interest and concern about these Imams.

How the previous 11 were treated right from the very start is in front of you. The first eventually came in to power but things were so Messed up and difficult because of the previous Khalifs that his first and main job was to clear and clean things up.

As soon as the first Imam came in to power as Khalifatul Muslimeen, people didn't even honour the title of Khalifatul Muslimeen. They openly accused him of all sorts and then eventually rebelled against him.

He governed for five years and struggled to save the Ummah and Islam from these outlaws and rebels, where as such important time could have been spent on promoting Islam and benefiting the Muslims.

Eventually the first was assassinated and the second Imam didn't even last a year. He only governed for 6 months. This is how bad things got for Imams and Imamath. And you know what happened to the third, Hazrath Hussain (as).

How the Imams were treated after this and what happened to their followers and supporters is clear in history. They were exiled, under house arrest, imprisoned and finally assassinated.

This was nothing to be proud about but was a period and phase of disgrace towards the Muslims. Now if the Ummah doesn't care and want divine guides and this is how careless people are then Allah took away the 12th.

Will continue this.



























Ameen

Re: Shia Mufassir confirms that Sahaba Changed the Quran
« Reply #22 on: February 14, 2015, 04:36:04 PM »
Why didn't the Prophet (pbuh) assemble the Quran??? Why didn't he compile and set it up??? Neither did the first two khalifs do this. Why was it left to the third Khalif or why did he do it??? What method did he use??? How accurate was it??? Why isn't it compiled and set up according to the way it was revealed??? The team even admitted that the forgot that certain verse/s existed. Ref; Sehih Bukhari, volume 6, book 61, narration 509 onwards. You believe that previous revelations were corrupted, by whom??? Wasn't there any need to protect and defend them??? Were they not important??? No one has said that the Quran we have with us today is corrupted, these are your words. The Quran is not according to the way it was revealed, how and by what excuse would you hide this???

We do not believe in Khilaafath because people came in to authority through different means and reasons and used and abused power for their own political agenda and purpose.

We believe in Imamath and you believe in Khilafath. You want proof of Imamath from the Quran otherwise the alternative is to accept the ridiculous concept of Khilafath, where different people have managed to make their way in to power and got up to all sorts.

Since Imam Mahdi (as) has been taken away or since that time up till now, how have things gone for the Muslims??? Where is your Khilafath???

Things have gone from bad to worse and even more worse. And things will get even worser until Muslims cry out for help.

Since the Prophet (pbuh) died and the first person became Khalifa, disregarding Imamath, things started to become bad and got worse and worse because the Ummah thought they knew better. The companions were interested in the Quran by saying "Hasbona Kithaballah" but were not interested in what the Prophet (pbuh) had to write down. Because he exactly knew what would be written down. And this really tells a lot about that persons intentions.



















Hani

Re: Shia Mufassir confirms that Sahaba Changed the Quran
« Reply #23 on: February 14, 2015, 07:14:54 PM »
Kay so u have 3 posts, less take a look.


Post#20:


You said you don't believe that the Qur'an was altered or tempered. That is good and we believe you. In this case you disagree with that Shia Urdu Tafseer book whose author says the book was in fact altered and tampered with. You should have clarified your position more as you gave us the impression that the Tafseer was correct in its claim of Tahreef.


Then you ask: Is there a possibility that people tried to alter/tamper it???


We all agree with you that this is true, definitely all throughout the ages the enemies of Islam will try to attack the Qur'an in every single way. Although you put a lot of emphasis on the hypocrites from among the Muslims, especially the first generation (Companions), as if the Christians, Jews, Pagans and other groups didn't wish to attack the Qur'an. This looks like a narrow minded view.


Then you ask: Why did Allah not protect and defend the other revelations???


The answer is that because they weren't final, so whenever people would tamper with a book or corrupt its meaning, Allah would send them a Prophet to correct them and guide them. As for us, we have no Prophets after Muhammad (saw), so Allah could not allow for his final message to be lost.


Post#21:


Here there's a couple of things that need commentary.



Quote
The 12th Imam (as) is not hidden. He is not in hiding. These words are used by anti Shia propagandists. The 12th Imam (as) went in to occultation by the will of Allah.


First of all, this is the definition of hidden in the English language: "kept out of sight; concealed." It is also one of the synonyms of the occult or occultation. Which agrees perfectly with your beliefs, so it's not something the enemies made up.


Secondly, your biggest scholars such as Tusi and Murtada and the rest, all agreed that the 12th Imam hid himself out of fear from his enemies, NOT because people lost interest.


Quote
He was taken away from the Ummah due to the Ummah's lack of interest and concern about these Imams.



Quote
Now if the Ummah doesn't care and want divine guides and this is how careless people are then Allah took away the 12th.


That makes no sense,


First of all, because Shia narrations make it sound like their Imams were the center of the universe and everybody from Caliphs to governments to scholars and laypeople were all closely watching their every move and word (Which is why they did Taqiyyah according to Shia).


Secondly, if Allah saw that people had no interest in his so called divine Imams, making them go into hiding would make things worse because people would lose interest even more. Most Muslims today don't even believe al-`Askari had a son.


Thirdly, according to Shia, the Imam is present to guide the believers out of grace (lutf). If he takes him away then it means Allah has not bestowed upon us his grace making him an unjust god according to Shia. That's why your scholars blame his occultation on the enemies of the Imams who threaten to kill him.


The rest of this post has nothing of interest.


Post#22:


Quote
Why didn't the Prophet (pbuh) assemble the Quran??? Why didn't he compile and set it up??? Neither did the first two khalifs do this.


According to your Ayatulla Khu'i, the Prophet (saw) did collect it during his time. We say he didn't, and the main reason was that they were all unlettered, the concentration was on memorizing it and understanding it, otherwise if they just got a book and they relied on it then it was lost, there's no way they can get it back unless they have it memorized. The Qur'an kept being revealed and parts were constantly being abrogated until the death of the Prophet (saw), they couldn't have collected it in its complete form until after his passing. As for the first Khalifah Abu Bakr, he did collect the written Qur'an in its entirety after `Umar advised him to do so, he told him that if people who memorized the Qur'an were to die, then they might lose parts of Allah's book, so they decided to gather all the parchments and tablets while those who memorized it were still alive.


Quote
The team even admitted that the forgot that certain verse/s existed. Ref; Sehih Bukhari, volume 6, book 61, narration 509 onwards.


I'll search for this later.


Quote
No one has said that the Quran we have with us today is corrupted, these are your words. The Quran is not according to the way it was revealed, how and by what excuse would you hide this???


I assume you're talking about the order of verses, This Qur'an is in this specific order based on the instructions of the Prophet (saw) according to the authentic narration from ibn `Abbas and `Uthman.


It wasn't meant to be in the order of revelation.



Quote
We do not believe in Khilaafath because people came in to authority through different means and reasons and used and abused power for their own political agenda and purpose.


Any Nasibi can claim the same thing about `Ali. Also any atheist can claim the same about the Prophet (saw). Leave this dumb method of arguing.



Quote
We believe in Imamath and you believe in Khilafath. You want proof of Imamath from the Quran otherwise the alternative is to accept the ridiculous concept of Khilafath, where different people have managed to make their way in to power and got up to all sorts.


We believe in Imamah and Khilafah, the Khalifah of Rasul-Allah (saw) is the Imam of the believers.



Quote
The companions were interested in the Quran by saying "Hasbona Kithaballah" but were not interested in what the Prophet (pbuh) had to write down. Because he exactly knew what would be written down. And this really tells a lot about that persons intentions.


Gosh, pen and paper again? Hasn't this been refuted a million times? Okay, I'll tell you what he was going to write, he wanted to write "Abu Bakr is my successor."


Enjoy.

عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

Hani

Re: Shia Mufassir confirms that Sahaba Changed the Quran
« Reply #24 on: February 14, 2015, 07:26:41 PM »
That's the part of the narration that you find problematic:

Volume 6, Book 61, Number 509:

"...and I am afraid that more heavy casualties may take place among the Qurra' on other battlefields, whereby a large part of the Qur'an may be lost..."

This doesn't mean the Quran was lost or forgotten, in fact there were people who memorized it in its entirety. He was telling him to collect all the Suhuf so that if it so happens that those who memorized it die, parts of the Qur'an may not be lost.

There's no problem with what is after it as well, it's a narration about `Uthman using what was collected by Abu Bakr and `Umar to later compile the book as we know it today:

"...Send us the manuscripts of the Qur'an so that we may compile the Qur'anic materials in perfect copies and return the manuscripts to you..."

the rest of what you pointed to is in this link:
http://www.usc.edu/org/cmje/religious-texts/hadith/bukhari/061-sbt.php
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

Rationalist

Re: Shia Mufassir confirms that Sahaba Changed the Quran
« Reply #25 on: February 14, 2015, 09:08:01 PM »


Post#20:


You said you don't believe that the Qur'an was altered or tempered. That is good and we believe you. In this case you disagree with that Shia Urdu Tafseer book whose author says the book was in fact altered and tampered with. You should have clarified your position more as you gave us the impression that the Tafseer was correct in its claim of Tahreef.
I think you missed out on his taqiyyah. He is saying the real Quran which isn't tampered is with the Mahdi. So when he is saying I don't believe the Quran is tampered, he is referring to another version which is with the Mahdi. Ask him if  Quran which is in public hands is tampered or not.


Rationalist

Re: Shia Mufassir confirms that Sahaba Changed the Quran
« Reply #26 on: February 14, 2015, 09:27:06 PM »
Brothers what is the point of an hidden Imam??? You are absolutely right that was is the point of an hidden Imam???

Brothers try to learn and get to know what Shiaism and Shia belief is all about. Refrain from gossip and rumours and those who wish to raise suspicion and to cast doubt to cause mischief.
The 12th Imam (as) is not hidden. He is not in hiding. These words are used by anti Shia propagandists. The 12th Imam (as) went in to occultation by the will of Allah.

 
This is not from propaganda, gossip or rumors. The term hidden is used on mainstream 12er Shia websites as well.

The Twelfth Imam, Muhammad ibn al-Hasan (Al-Mahdi-Sahibuz Zaman) (as) (The hidden Imam who is expected to return)

http://www.al-islam.org/story-of-the-holy-kaaba-and-its-people-shabbar/twelfth-imam-muhammad-ibn-al-hasan-al-mahdi



Quote
What does this mean??? He was taken away from the Ummah due to the Ummah's lack of interest and concern about these Imams.

Yes, but which part of tImam Mahdi (A.S.) said.
"If our shias; may Allah help them in His obedience; would have fulfilled their covenant with united hearts then there would have. been no delay in our meeting, and they would have been blessed with our visitation at the earliest, along with the recognition of truth and confirmation of our rights."
(Al Ihtejaj vol.2 Pg.602

Which Ummah? These were the Rafidah/Shia.


Quote
How the Imams were treated after this and what happened to their followers and supporters is clear in history. They were exiled, under house arrest, imprisoned and finally assassinated.
The Sahaba generation did not exist. So my question is where were the Shias ?

Quote
This was nothing to be proud about but was a period and phase of disgrace towards the Muslims.
I totally agree. Look what happened during Imam Musa Al Kazim's (as) time.

[ Invalid YouTube link ]
« Last Edit: February 14, 2015, 09:34:48 PM by Rationalist »

Furkan

Re: Shia Mufassir confirms that Sahaba Changed the Quran
« Reply #27 on: February 15, 2015, 12:08:41 AM »
@Hani

Quote
Gosh, pen and paper again? Hasn't this been refuted a million times? Okay, I'll tell you what he was going to write, he wanted to write "Abu Bakr is my successor."

Can you prove this or was it sarcasm? If sarcasm, brother watch out saying something like this.

I read this once: http://ahlussunnah.boards.net/thread/100/hadith-pen-paper-shiah?page=1&scrollTo=155
Before Qazî Mihemed, President of the first kurdish Republic Mahabad was hanged the iranian judge asked:

“last words?”

Qazî: “I thank Allah: even in death he put my shoes above your heads”

Hani

Re: Shia Mufassir confirms that Sahaba Changed the Quran
« Reply #28 on: February 15, 2015, 12:39:14 AM »
It's neither sarcasm nor fact nor nothing, it's a methodology of debate adopted by many.


Regarding writing Abu Bakr's name, this has been theorized and it does have its evidence, nothing explicit though.
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

Ameen

Re: Shia Mufassir confirms that Sahaba Changed the Quran
« Reply #29 on: February 15, 2015, 01:31:53 AM »
Ok brothers, thank you very much for your response. Let me go through and cover as much as I can. The 12th Imam (as) went in to occultation or was taken in to occultation by the will of Allah. And this was due to lack of interest and concern from the Muslim Ummah about and for divine guidance. People thought they knew better and there was no need for any type of guidance.

As I have given you an example right from the very start. The Prophet (pbuh), not some ordinary person but the Messenger (pbuh) himself is saying,

"fetch or get me a pen and paper so I can write something for you that you will not go astray, you will not differ with each other after me",

 what ever the actual words are, it is not about what was going to be written, was it this or was it that. This is the technique and tactic used by people that, how do you know what was going to be written???

It could have been any thing for example,

"Abu Bakar is the true Khalif after me, he is my successor and do not differ on that",

the question is not about what was going to be written, the question is about this particular persons attitude and behaviour towards this, his reaction towards this that,

"Hasbona Kithaballah" meaning "the book of Allah is enough for us".

For any person who has got nothing to do with Shiaism or Sunnism, who is interested in the truth and doesn't bother about protecting any companion and making them look good, or trying to move the discussion forward to cover things up, for this person this particular individuals intentions and thoughts are absolute clear. This is an insult to the Prophet (pbuh) and there is no way on earth one can turn and run from this apart from diverting attention to what exactly was the Prophet (pbuh) going to write.

Come on for Gods sake, this is the Prophet (pbuh) we are talking about and the reaction is,

"Hasbona Kithaballah", The book of Allah is enough for us. In other words, we are not interested in what you are going to write, there is no need for anything else. The reaction of this particular individual and the fuss that was created from here tells you a lot about this persons attentions and thoughts.

No one is talking about this persons status and honour as a companion but what is at question here is about his reaction, his response, which is absolutely alarming. Again it is not about what was or wasn't going to be written.

Furkan

Re: Shia Mufassir confirms that Sahaba Changed the Quran
« Reply #30 on: February 15, 2015, 01:44:20 AM »
Ameen, read this:

 http://ahlussunnah.boards.net/thread/100/hadith-pen-paper-shiah?page=1&scrollTo=155

It says what was going to be written on the paper basically.
Before Qazî Mihemed, President of the first kurdish Republic Mahabad was hanged the iranian judge asked:

“last words?”

Qazî: “I thank Allah: even in death he put my shoes above your heads”

Hani

Re: Shia Mufassir confirms that Sahaba Changed the Quran
« Reply #31 on: February 15, 2015, 01:55:28 AM »
Ugh, pen and paper is off topic and it's freaking BORING! Discussed a gazillion times in every single way.

I'm going to post an ancient piece and let that answer you:
http://www.chiite.fr/en/sahaba_25.html

or
https://www.sjiieten-ontmaskerd.nl/AhlelBayt.com/www.ahlelbayt.com/articles/sahabah/pen-and-paper.html

Also if you're wondering, it was the Prophet (saw) himself who taught the companions this philosophy that Allah's book is sufficient. Of course you won't know this since you don't read Hadith books.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2015, 01:58:06 AM by Hani »
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

Bolani Muslim

Re: Shia Mufassir confirms that Sahaba Changed the Quran
« Reply #32 on: February 15, 2015, 03:09:21 AM »
^Thanks for the articles brother Hani, this was the only issue still bugging me. ;D

Rationalist

Re: Shia Mufassir confirms that Sahaba Changed the Quran
« Reply #33 on: February 15, 2015, 07:47:41 AM »
It's neither sarcasm nor fact nor nothing, it's a methodology of debate adopted by many.


Regarding writing Abu Bakr's name, this has been theorized and it does have its evidence, nothing explicit though.

They can't even use that hadith as an example. Ibn Abbas when he served under Imam Ali (as) later differed and withdrew from his government. So how it fit with divine appointment.

Ameen

Re: Shia Mufassir confirms that Sahaba Changed the Quran
« Reply #34 on: February 15, 2015, 01:35:37 PM »
Ameen, read this:

 http://ahlussunnah.boards.net/thread/100/hadith-pen-paper-shiah?page=1&scrollTo=155

It says what was going to be written on the paper basically.

I am looking in to this and will reply asap!

Furkan

Re: Shia Mufassir confirms that Sahaba Changed the Quran
« Reply #35 on: February 15, 2015, 03:39:30 PM »
Ameen, if you do so, then open a new topic please.
Before Qazî Mihemed, President of the first kurdish Republic Mahabad was hanged the iranian judge asked:

“last words?”

Qazî: “I thank Allah: even in death he put my shoes above your heads”

Ameen

Re: Shia Mufassir confirms that Sahaba Changed the Quran
« Reply #36 on: February 15, 2015, 04:08:38 PM »
Ameen, if you do so, then open a new topic please.

Yes ofcourse.  No problem.

 

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