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Surah Abasa

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Rationalist

Surah Abasa
« on: January 20, 2015, 03:08:43 AM »
Salaam
I just wanted to know why the 12er Shia find it offensive when the Prophet (pbuh) is referred to in Surah Abasa.

80:1 He frowned and turned away.

Furkan

Re: Surah Abasa
« Reply #1 on: January 20, 2015, 03:16:11 AM »
Checking tafseer ibn katheer or tafseer of imam qurtubi might help us to get the correct sunni view.
Before Qazî Mihemed, President of the first kurdish Republic Mahabad was hanged the iranian judge asked:

“last words?”

Qazî: “I thank Allah: even in death he put my shoes above your heads”

Rationalist

Re: Surah Abasa
« Reply #2 on: January 20, 2015, 03:44:38 AM »
I don't have any issue with it, but I want the 12ers to discuss why I am wrong in accepting such a view.

Husayn

Re: Surah Abasa
« Reply #3 on: January 20, 2015, 04:02:21 AM »
The issue has to do with 'isma (infallibility) - as if the Prophet (saw) could be annoyed by or ignore the blind man.

So they attribute these verses to other individuals (I've heard it attributed to 'Uthman (ra)) - even though it makes absolutely no sense to do so.

But yeah - infallibility is the big issue for the Shiis when it comes to this.
إن يتبعون إلا الظن وما تهوى الأنفس

Rationalist

Re: Surah Abasa
« Reply #4 on: January 20, 2015, 04:43:58 AM »
Okay if this interferes with infallibility why do the 12ers have no issue accepting that the Prophet (pbuh) did not know who the monafiqeen were. Yet the Imams, they supposedly have this power to know who is a monafiq.

Husayn

Re: Surah Abasa
« Reply #5 on: January 20, 2015, 05:40:31 AM »
Okay if this interferes with infallibility why do the 12ers have no issue accepting that the Prophet (pbuh) did not know who the monafiqeen were. Yet the Imams, they supposedly have this power to know who is a monafiq.

I ask this question once - and I got the following answer (roughly):

The Prophet (saw) did know who the munafiqeen were, but because they hid it, he couldn't do anything about it.

Same as how 'Ali (ra) knew that Ibn Muljim would kill him - but because this was "hidden knowledge", he was not allowed to or couldn't do anything about it.

-----

Yeah, I know, it sounds ridiculous, but what else are they going to say?
إن يتبعون إلا الظن وما تهوى الأنفس

Husayn

Re: Surah Abasa
« Reply #6 on: January 20, 2015, 06:53:53 AM »
Here you go:

Quote
They had to live with the people on the level of the common people. They were not to use their super-natural knowledge or power for their own benefit or for averting any harm from themselves. (In fact, it was a very tough test for them to know that a certain man or woman would harm them or their children and then behave with him/her in the normal way.) That is why 'Ali (a.s.) did not punish or imprison Ibn Muljim, although he knew that the latter would assassinate him."[10]

[10] Al-Mufid, al-Irshad, p. 314; in English, see p. 236

http://www.imamreza.net/eng/imamreza.php?id=105

So what is the point of 'ilm al-ghayb?

----

As usual, it seems, this thread has gone off-topic :) My sincerest apologies.
إن يتبعون إلا الظن وما تهوى الأنفس

Rationalist

Re: Surah Abasa
« Reply #7 on: January 20, 2015, 02:53:55 PM »
Here you go:

Quote
They had to live with the people on the level of the common people. They were not to use their super-natural knowledge or power for their own benefit or for averting any harm from themselves. (In fact, it was a very tough test for them to know that a certain man or woman would harm them or their children and then behave with him/her in the normal way.) That is why 'Ali (a.s.) did not punish or imprison Ibn Muljim, although he knew that the latter would assassinate him."[10]

[10] Al-Mufid, al-Irshad, p. 314; in English, see p. 236

http://www.imamreza.net/eng/imamreza.php?id=105

So what is the point of 'ilm al-ghayb?

----

As usual, it seems, this thread has gone off-topic :) My sincerest apologies.

No I want to discuss this ilm-al Gayb and stuff because its the only way Surah Abasa makes sense, and doesn't in anyway refute the infallibility of the Prophet (pbuh) even if he is the one who frowned to blind man who couldn't see his reaction.

Anyway, how do they interpret this verse.

And among those around you of the bedouins are hypocrites, and [also] from the people of Madinah. They have become accustomed to hypocrisy. You, [O Muhammad], do not know them, [but] We know them. (Quran 9:101)

Also,  Ibn Muljim isn't the only problem. Even Ibn Ziyad was on Imam Ali's (as) camp at one point who had been given responsibility.

Hani

Re: Surah Abasa
« Reply #8 on: January 20, 2015, 04:03:43 PM »
That's true, `Ali according to their "excuse" knew they're evil but could not act upon it since "no reason actually", yet he did appoint certain men in positions of authority who later abandoned his camp. I mean if he didn't want to punish them before hand that's somewhat acceptable but why reward them by placing them in authority?
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

Abu Zayd

Re: Surah Abasa
« Reply #9 on: January 20, 2015, 04:13:46 PM »

Optimus Prime

Re: Surah Abasa
« Reply #10 on: January 20, 2015, 04:21:39 PM »
Salaam
I just wanted to know why the 12er Shia find it offensive when the Prophet (pbuh) is referred to in Surah Abasa.

80:1 He frowned and turned away.


Rationalist, if you don't mind me asking are you Sunni or Shia?

Invoker

Re: Surah Abasa
« Reply #11 on: January 20, 2015, 08:12:03 PM »
This issue is simple inshAllah using Allah's words only no need for Tafseer:

Here are 5 verses Directly Addressing the person who Frowned: (Surat Abasah)

وما < يدريك > لعله يزكى → "And how can <you know> that he might become pure"
فأنت > له تصدى > → "To him <you> attend"
وما < عليك > ألا يزكى → "And it is not <upon you> that he does not get pure"
وأما من < جاءك > يسعى → "As to him who <came to you> striving"
فأنت > عنه تلهى > → "From him will <you> divert yourself"

Allah swt is addressing the <<Revealed To>> → The Person who Frowned.

Therefore:
Person Receiving Revelation from Allah swt = Mohammed saw
If Mohammed saw Receieved Quran Revelation → Frowned Man is Mohammed saw
If Other Received Quran Revelation → Frowned Man is Other



The significance of these verses is not who frowned and if the Qur'an resorted to mentioning names, then the verses will be restricted to the occasion of its revelation and lose its universality and the moral lesson it teaches.

The surah deals with a moral standard; Allah admonishes those who regard the poor and blind people low because they have an equal potential of purifying themselves.
« Last Edit: January 20, 2015, 08:32:07 PM by Invoker »

Hani

Re: Surah Abasa
« Reply #12 on: January 20, 2015, 09:32:10 PM »
The last point was covered here
http://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/235012824-why-arent-the-ansar-worse-than-abubakr-and-umar/page-9

This thread you linked us to is a mess, I'm proud to be a member of this forum now since SC is such a mess.

And come on skype you, there's stuff we can discuss = p
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

Rationalist

Re: Surah Abasa
« Reply #13 on: January 21, 2015, 02:40:12 AM »
Salaam
I just wanted to know why the 12er Shia find it offensive when the Prophet (pbuh) is referred to in Surah Abasa.

80:1 He frowned and turned away.


Rationalist, if you don't mind me asking are you Sunni or Shia?
Salaam
I just wanted to know why the 12er Shia find it offensive when the Prophet (pbuh) is referred to in Surah Abasa.

80:1 He frowned and turned away.


Rationalist, if you don't mind me asking are you Sunni or Shia?

My username is Abdaal on islamic-forum. I didn't want to use that anymore because I am not so much into Sufism anymore.

Rationalist

Re: Surah Abasa
« Reply #14 on: January 21, 2015, 02:53:35 AM »
The last point was covered here
http://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/235012824-why-arent-the-ansar-worse-than-abubakr-and-umar/page-9
We need to question this issue from a theological point of view.
There are a couple problems here.
The companions who didn't accept the divinely appointed Caliphate were monafiqeen, and now Imam Ali (as) allowed fasiqs in powers. Again one is a fasiq according to the theology of 12ers for rejecting divinely appointed Caliphate. Then in Najh Al Balagha he warns Ziyad to fear Allah (refer to Letter 20), but he is supposedly is going to hell anyway for not accepting divinely appointed so Caliphate what's the point of the warning ?

Now with Muhammad bin Abi Bakr (ra) there could be a better defense from the 12ers, but even with that decision Imam Ali (as) had to rethink the governor position of Egypt  where tried to replace him Malik Al Asthar (ra). In this case we can work around asking how much of the future he himself knew through ilm Al Jafr. However, the case with Ziyad bin Abi isn't solved, and of course one has to question the majority bayah from those who accepted the Imam as the 4th Calipah.

Optimus Prime

Re: Surah Abasa
« Reply #15 on: January 21, 2015, 03:00:20 AM »
Salaam
I just wanted to know why the 12er Shia find it offensive when the Prophet (pbuh) is referred to in Surah Abasa.

80:1 He frowned and turned away.


Rationalist, if you don't mind me asking are you Sunni or Shia?
Salaam
I just wanted to know why the 12er Shia find it offensive when the Prophet (pbuh) is referred to in Surah Abasa.

80:1 He frowned and turned away.


Rationalist, if you don't mind me asking are you Sunni or Shia?

My username is Abdaal on islamic-forum. I didn't want to use that anymore because I am not so much into Sufism anymore.


Welcome to the forum.

Yeah, that site is dead and went down too often than not.

scusemyenglish

Re: Surah Abasa
« Reply #16 on: July 10, 2016, 10:59:14 PM »
Salam.

I have read in this site that some Sunni believed it's not the messengers saws who was concerned here.

According to this website there is also

Voir Madjma’a Al bayane, V. 10, p 437, et ensuite le Tafsir el bourhane, V. 4, p 428, ou le Tafsir Nour ethhakaleyn, V5, p 509.

http://www.scansislam.fr/refutations/sunnisme/qui-sest-renfrogne/

Abou Hourayra narrated that the messenger saws said:

"“There will come to the people years
of treachery (...) the Ruwaibidhah will decide matters.”
It was said

 'Who are the Ruwaibidhah?'

The Prophet replied:

 “Vile and
ignorant men who will speak in the affairs of the people.”

scusemyenglish

Re: Surah Abasa
« Reply #17 on: July 11, 2016, 06:37:23 PM »
If someone can provide me an article  about the issu of surah Abasa please.

Little by little I am discovering Shiasm :=P
Abou Hourayra narrated that the messenger saws said:

"“There will come to the people years
of treachery (...) the Ruwaibidhah will decide matters.”
It was said

 'Who are the Ruwaibidhah?'

The Prophet replied:

 “Vile and
ignorant men who will speak in the affairs of the people.”

Solomon

Re: Surah Abasa
« Reply #18 on: July 12, 2016, 03:24:26 PM »
Salaam
I just wanted to know why the 12er Shia find it offensive when the Prophet (pbuh) is referred to in Surah Abasa.

80:1 He frowned and turned away.
Wssalam

Brother, All-Knowing God has highly praised the great character and behavior of beloved Prophet(s) in Quran so on other side(in this surah) harshly rebuking  tone for such a ugly deed(turning away from poors and blind) can not  be considered as the characteristic of leader of all prophets.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2016, 03:27:38 PM by Solomon »
"O Apostle! Deliver what has been sent down to you from your Lord; and if you don't do it, you have not delivered His message (at all); and Allah will protect you from the people ..." (Qur'an 5:67)
Messenger of Allah said:
"For whoever I am his mawla, 'Ali is his mawla."

ShiaMan

Re: Surah Abasa
« Reply #19 on: July 12, 2016, 09:33:47 PM »
Let's take it one bit at a time:

[Quran 80:1] He frowned and turned (his) back,
[Quran 80:2] Because there came to him the blind man.
[Quran 80:3] And what would make you know that he would purify himself,
[Quran 80:4] Or become reminded so that the reminder should profit him?
[Quran 80:5] As for him who considers himself free from need (of you),
[Quran 80:6] To him do you address yourself.
[Quran 80:7] And no blame is on you if he would not purify himself
[Quran 80:8] And as to him who comes to you striving hard,
[Quran 80:9] And he fears,
[Quran 80:10] From him will you divert yourself.
[Quran 80:11] Nay! surely it is an admonishment.
[Quran 80:12] So let him who pleases mind it.

Can we agree there are 3 personalities being discussed here namely the blind man, "he/him", "you"?

 

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