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Surah tawbah verse 101

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Truth7seeker

Surah tawbah verse 101
« on: January 13, 2020, 05:35:17 PM »
Salamu alaykum, brothers and sisters.

Bismillah arrahman arraheem

There is this shiite brother of mine who tries to convince me that most sahaba were hypocrites.
I want to refute his arguments but, my knowledge is to weak.

Thats why i hope somebody on this forum can help me guide this brother and increase my knowledge insha allah.
This is one of the things he sent me.

“And among those around you of the Arabs [of Makkah] are hypocrites, and [also] from the people of Madīnah. They have become accustomed to hypocrisy. You, [O Muhammad], do not know them, [but] We know them. We will punish them twice [in this world]; then they will be returned to a great punishment.”

Sura Tawbah Verse 101

Narrated ‘Abdullah: The Prophet said, “I am your predecessor at the Lake-Fount (Kauthar) and some men amongst you will be brought to me, and when I will try to hand them some water, they will be pulled away from me by force whereupon I will say, ‘O Lord, my companions!’ Then the Almighty will say, ‘You do not know what they did after you left, they introduced new things into the religion after you.’”

(Sahih Bukhari, Book 88, Hadith 173) Reference (no.12)

Does anyone know who these hypocrites are?
And can this be applied to Abu bakr, Umar, or any other sahabi which the shia reject?

« Last Edit: January 13, 2020, 10:09:41 PM by Truth7seeker »

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Re: Surah tawbah verse 101
« Reply #1 on: January 13, 2020, 11:42:38 PM »
Salamu alaykum, brothers and sisters.

Bismillah arrahman arraheem

There is this shiite brother of mine who tries to convince me that most sahaba were hypocrites.
I want to refute his arguments but, my knowledge is to weak.

Thats why i hope somebody on this forum can help me guide this brother and increase my knowledge insha allah.
This is one of the things he sent me.

“And among those around you of the Arabs [of Makkah] are hypocrites, and [also] from the people of Madīnah. They have become accustomed to hypocrisy. You, [O Muhammad], do not know them, [but] We know them. We will punish them twice [in this world]; then they will be returned to a great punishment.”

Sura Tawbah Verse 101


Walaikum Salam,

I quickly respond now and may add more later. The verse quoted has a faulty translation. The Arabic word used is A'raab meaning the Bedouins not the "Arabs [of Makkah]". The previous verse, which is verse 100, is about the companions of the Prophet (saw), the Muhajireen and Ansar and those who followed them. Abubakr, Omar, Othman etc whom the Shia hate the most were all from the Muhajireen so they have no argument against them if they are sincere.
در خلافت میل نیست ای بی‌خبر
میل کی آید ز بوبکر و عمر
میل اگر بودی در آن دو مقتدا
هر دو کردندی پسر را پیشوا

عطار نِیشابوری

www.Nahjul-Balagha.net | www.TwelverShia.net | www.ghadirkhumm.com

iceman

Re: Surah tawbah verse 101
« Reply #2 on: January 14, 2020, 02:15:27 AM »
Salamu alaykum, brothers and sisters.

Bismillah arrahman arraheem

There is this shiite brother of mine who tries to convince me that most sahaba were hypocrites.
I want to refute his arguments but, my knowledge is to weak.

Thats why i hope somebody on this forum can help me guide this brother and increase my knowledge insha allah.
This is one of the things he sent me.

“And among those around you of the Arabs [of Makkah] are hypocrites, and [also] from the people of Madīnah. They have become accustomed to hypocrisy. You, [O Muhammad], do not know them, [but] We know them. We will punish them twice [in this world]; then they will be returned to a great punishment.”

Sura Tawbah Verse 101

Narrated ‘Abdullah: The Prophet said, “I am your predecessor at the Lake-Fount (Kauthar) and some men amongst you will be brought to me, and when I will try to hand them some water, they will be pulled away from me by force whereupon I will say, ‘O Lord, my companions!’ Then the Almighty will say, ‘You do not know what they did after you left, they introduced new things into the religion after you.’”

(Sahih Bukhari, Book 88, Hadith 173) Reference (no.12)

Does anyone know who these hypocrites are?
And can this be applied to Abu bakr, Umar, or any other sahabi which the shia reject?

What you've put forward is true. But the bit you've said;

 "And can this be applied to Abu bakr, Umar, or any other sahabi which the shia reject?"

We don't need to use this and start applying it to anyone particular according to our desire. The whole point is that companions of the Prophet s.a.w were no saints or angels. They weren't perfect. And not everyone accepted Islam for the right reasons. There was issues and problems throughout. And there are bits and pieces in history books concerning companions and rulers after Muhammad s.a.w which are a matter of concern and worry. And capable of criticism and condemnation.

It's not a matter of who Shias accept and reject but more of a matter of Sunnis not accepting and taking matters based on reality and facts. The Sunnis portray not the companions of the Prophet s.a.w but certain Companions like Abu Bakr, Umar, Usman etc and a few others as some absolutely and totally saintly and godly figures in a way that they couldn't put a foot wrong or get anything wrong. This is against history and facts. And some companions the Sunnis don't even mention or talk about or find it hard to praise and honour like Ammar ibne Yasir, Abu Zarr Al Ghafari, Miqdad, Salman etc.

Truth7seeker

Re: Surah tawbah verse 101
« Reply #3 on: January 14, 2020, 08:41:25 PM »
Walaikum Salam,

I quickly respond now and may add more later. The verse quoted has a faulty translation. The Arabic word used is A'raab meaning the Bedouins not the "Arabs [of Makkah]". The previous verse, which is verse 100, is about the companions of the Prophet (saw), the Muhajireen and Ansar and those who followed them. Abubakr, Omar, Othman etc whom the Shia hate the most were all from the Muhajireen so they have no argument against them if they are sincere.

Barakallahu feek brother.

First of the wrong translation of A'raab...why am i not suprised. :(

Please correct me if i am wrong.

So the verse [9:101] cannot refer to Abu bakr, Umar or Uthman.
Because they were amongst the first forerunners of the Muhajireen.
And according to Allah (swt) in verse [9:100] have ..gardens beneath which rivers flow, wherein they will abide forever.

That means they cannot be amongst the ones who are prevented from Lake Faunt?

So the hypocrites [9:101], and the companions mentioned in the Lake faunt hadith can be anyone from:

    - Kindah, Fazaarah, Banu Asad and Banu Bakr

    - Musaylimah, Banu Haneefah

    - Any group who deviated from the Sunnah etc.


Or is this knowledge of the unseen, which the prophet (saw) didn't even know and only Allah (swt)?

You, [O Muhammad], do not know them, [but] We know them.

Truth7seeker

Re: Surah tawbah verse 101
« Reply #4 on: January 14, 2020, 09:03:53 PM »
What you've put forward is true. But the bit you've said;

 "And can this be applied to Abu bakr, Umar, or any other sahabi which the shia reject?"

We don't need to use this and start applying it to anyone particular according to our desire. The whole point is that companions of the Prophet s.a.w were no saints or angels. They weren't perfect. And not everyone accepted Islam for the right reasons. There was issues and problems throughout. And there are bits and pieces in history books concerning companions and rulers after Muhammad s.a.w which are a matter of concern and worry. And capable of criticism and condemnation.

It's not a matter of who Shias accept and reject but more of a matter of Sunnis not accepting and taking matters based on reality and facts. The Sunnis portray not the companions of the Prophet s.a.w but certain Companions like Abu Bakr, Umar, Usman etc and a few others as some absolutely and totally saintly and godly figures in a way that they couldn't put a foot wrong or get anything wrong. This is against history and facts. And some companions the Sunnis don't even mention or talk about or find it hard to praise and honour like Ammar ibne Yasir, Abu Zarr Al Ghafari, Miqdad, Salman etc.

Salamu alaykum,thanks for your reply.

I heard about these things from my shiite brother and i agree on some things.
But my knowledge is to weak to know what is what.
And thats why i am here, to learn about the differences between Sunni and Shia.
So any reply is welcome. Shukran

Adil

Re: Surah tawbah verse 101
« Reply #5 on: January 14, 2020, 10:47:55 PM »
Salamu alaykum,thanks for your reply.

I heard about these things from my shiite brother and i agree on some things.
But my knowledge is to weak to know what is what.
And thats why i am here, to learn about the differences between Sunni and Shia.
So any reply is welcome. Shukran

He is really overexaggerating saying we sunnis treat companions like gods. What's telling is that he stopped just short after Uthman's (ra) name and skipped out how highly we view Ali (ra). We are not shia, we do not have infallible imams who seem to have super powers. The companions of the Prophet (pbuh) are the best generation of Muslims and so we look to them as role models and we practice Islam how they practiced it because they were right there as the Qur'an was revealed and they learnt from the Prophet (pbuh).

Secondly some companions being mentioned or known more than others doesn't really mean much. I imagine it's the same with shia, they will mention or know some companions more than others.

Think about this, if you have a country and you have a ruler and then the ruler has governors/ministers. Most people will know the ruler and they'll mention him more, less people will know the governors and even less people than that will know the deputies of the governors.  Likewise we tend to mention some sahaba more than others. Abu Bakr (ra), Umar (ra), Uthman (ra) and Ali (ra) are widely known because of their position and status, they were the rightly guided caliphs and the four best leaders of the Muslims after the Prophet (pbuh) passed away. Similarly Bilal(ra) is quite well known too because he was the Muslim chosen to call out the azan, we all know him because of his unique story and position. Most Muslims don't know most companions but it makes sense that they would still know some companions more than others. You aren't going to find a sunni Muslim whose going to be dissing sahaba such as Salman (ra).

Iceman is acting like just because we don't talk about them as much then it means we dislike them. Which is false Anyway what else is this other shia been saying to you?
« Last Edit: January 14, 2020, 10:50:09 PM by Adil »

Adil

Re: Surah tawbah verse 101
« Reply #6 on: January 14, 2020, 10:56:27 PM »
Iceman has some nerve to say we treat companions like gods. Watch these two short clips brother truthseeker, it'll give you an idea of which group of Muslims actually does that.

https://twitter.com/bu_noor89/status/1216675379034849281
https://twitter.com/bu_noor89/status/1216994099418583040

MuslimK

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Re: Surah tawbah verse 101
« Reply #7 on: January 15, 2020, 12:47:42 AM »


And can this be applied to Abu bakr, Umar, or any other sahabi which the shia reject?

No, for the reasons mentioned earlier. They are praised in the Quran and in the Sunnah so it can not be about them. A Kharijite can use the Shia guess work game by claiming that it applies to Ali.



Barakallahu feek brother.

First of the wrong translation of A'raab...why am i not suprised. :(

Please correct me if i am wrong.

So the verse [9:101] cannot refer to Abu bakr, Umar or Uthman.
Because they were amongst the first forerunners of the Muhajireen.
And according to Allah (swt) in verse [9:100] have ..gardens beneath which rivers flow, wherein they will abide forever.

That means they cannot be amongst the ones who are prevented from Lake Faunt?

Exactly! Also, the verses about hypocrites were first revealed in Madina when Muslims became strong and majority. The Hypocrites were a small mostly secret group. (One group of them that were known were Ibn Salul and his companions).

Abubakr, Omar, Othman etc became Muslim in Makkah where majority were polytheists. If they were hypocrites Allah would have revealed verses exposing them in Makkah.

Quote
So the hypocrites [9:101], and the companions mentioned in the Lake faunt hadith can be anyone from:

    - Kindah, Fazaarah, Banu Asad and Banu Bakr

    - Musaylimah, Banu Haneefah

    - Any group who deviated from the Sunnah etc.


Or is this knowledge of the unseen, which the prophet (saw) didn't even know and only Allah (swt)?

You, [O Muhammad], do not know them, [but] We know them.

Yes, it can refer to some tribes you mentioned because after the Prophet (saw) people from those tribes became apostates. It was Abubakr and his army from the companions that fought them.

You can read more about the Hadith of Lake Fountain here:
http://www.twelvershia.net/2013/10/28/why-would-some-of-the-muslims-be-driven-away-at-the-fount/
http://www.twelvershia.net/2014/02/14/response-to-hadeeth-of-lake-fountain/


P.S. Iceman is a Shia member of our forum.
در خلافت میل نیست ای بی‌خبر
میل کی آید ز بوبکر و عمر
میل اگر بودی در آن دو مقتدا
هر دو کردندی پسر را پیشوا

عطار نِیشابوری

www.Nahjul-Balagha.net | www.TwelverShia.net | www.ghadirkhumm.com

Truth7seeker

Re: Surah tawbah verse 101
« Reply #8 on: January 16, 2020, 12:38:23 AM »
No, for the reasons mentioned earlier. They are praised in the Quran and in the Sunnah so it can not be about them. A Kharijite can use the Shia guess work game by claiming that it applies to Ali.

That's a good point you made about the Kharijites never thought about it like that.

Exactly! Also, the verses about hypocrites were first revealed in Madina when Muslims became strong and majority. The Hypocrites were a small mostly secret group. (One group of them that were known were Ibn Salul and his companions).

Abubakr, Omar, Othman etc became Muslim in Makkah where majority were polytheists. If they were hypocrites Allah would have revealed verses exposing them in Makkah.

Yes, it can refer to some tribes you mentioned because after the Prophet (saw) people from those tribes became apostates. It was Abubakr and his army from the companions that fought them.


You can read more about the Hadith of Lake Fountain here:
http://www.twelvershia.net/2013/10/28/why-would-some-of-the-muslims-be-driven-away-at-the-fount/
http://www.twelvershia.net/2014/02/14/response-to-hadeeth-of-lake-fountain/


P.S. Iceman is a Shia member of our forum.


Thanks allot akhi

This clarifies everything i got my answers and more.
Once you explained the context and when the verses were revealed everything made sense.
And the links were really helpful to.
It seems that my shiite brother doesn't talk about the context much and tries to convince me with emotions while quoting verses which suites his belief.
May Allah guide this brother and us and keep us steadfast. amin

I have still allot to learn and i will keep learning insha allah.
Thanks again for educating me on these verses.
Barakallahu feek
 

Truth7seeker

Re: Surah tawbah verse 101
« Reply #9 on: January 16, 2020, 01:01:46 AM »
Iceman has some nerve to say we treat companions like gods. Watch these two short clips brother truthseeker, it'll give you an idea of which group of Muslims actually does that.

https://twitter.com/bu_noor89/status/1216675379034849281
https://twitter.com/bu_noor89/status/1216994099418583040

Sallamu alykum brother.

Astaghfirullah, i hope this isn't mainstream shia belief because i can never except this.
If this isn't shirk then i dont know what is, my shiite brother explained it very differently.
He said they use the imams as means to get closer to Allah, but what i see here is something else.

Truth7seeker

Re: Surah tawbah verse 101
« Reply #10 on: January 16, 2020, 01:52:20 AM »
He is really overexaggerating saying we sunnis treat companions like gods. What's telling is that he stopped just short after Uthman's (ra) name and skipped out how highly we view Ali (ra). We are not shia, we do not have infallible imams who seem to have super powers. The companions of the Prophet (pbuh) are the best generation of Muslims and so we look to them as role models and we practice Islam how they practiced it because they were right there as the Qur'an was revealed and they learnt from the Prophet (pbuh).

Secondly some companions being mentioned or known more than others doesn't really mean much. I imagine it's the same with shia, they will mention or know some companions more than others.

Think about this, if you have a country and you have a ruler and then the ruler has governors/ministers. Most people will know the ruler and they'll mention him more, less people will know the governors and even less people than that will know the deputies of the governors.  Likewise we tend to mention some sahaba more than others. Abu Bakr (ra), Umar (ra), Uthman (ra) and Ali (ra) are widely known because of their position and status, they were the rightly guided caliphs and the four best leaders of the Muslims after the Prophet (pbuh) passed away. Similarly Bilal(ra) is quite well known too because he was the Muslim chosen to call out the azan, we all know him because of his unique story and position. Most Muslims don't know most companions but it makes sense that they would still know some companions more than others. You aren't going to find a sunni Muslim whose going to be dissing sahaba such as Salman (ra).

Iceman is acting like just because we don't talk about them as much then it means we dislike them.

That makes allot of sense what you just said and the more i learn about shiism the more i lean towards the ahlus sunnah wal jamaah.

Which is false Anyway what else is this other shia been saying to you?

The shiite brother brought up allot of things which i had absolutely no knowledge of.
Topics like fadak and the right to inherit from the prophet saw, Umar (r.a) attacking Fatima (r.a) etc.
Recently he sent me the hadith of Aamar ibn yasir Al-Bukhaari (447), and is basically saying i'm on the wrong side.
And the Quran verse [62:11] and said look how the sahaba abandoned the prophet during salah.

I remember one day i mentioned Aisha (r.a), and he responded "I hate her and i should've went to the barbeque"
I said which barbeque? he said " There was this barbeque were we celebrate the death of Aisha".
I was shocked and became angry and we had a heated argument but afterwards we cooled down alhamdulilah.
But i don't wanna talk to much about the brother, its quite a interesting story but i don't wanna talk about his private life behind his back, i will just keep learning and refute his arguments insha allah.

By the way, if you or anyone has links on these topics especially the Aamar hadith or the Quran verse please share?

Thank you brother Adil for the links and info.

Adil

Re: Surah tawbah verse 101
« Reply #11 on: January 16, 2020, 02:27:09 AM »
Sallamu alykum brother.

Astaghfirullah, i hope this isn't mainstream shia belief because i can never except this.
If this isn't shirk then i dont know what is, my shiite brother explained it very differently.
He said they use the imams as means to get closer to Allah, but what i see here is something else.

Wa'alaykumasalaam

In the second longer vid, the uploader says in the comments that the video has many famous shia speakers in that one. So I assume those kind of things are something that is popular amongst the shia.

Please watch this one aswell:
https://twitter.com/bu_noor89/status/1217002752368398337
Look at the one at 1:10, the supreme leader of the Iran, the most powerful ayotollah on the planet is watching it in the crowd and says nothing and nor does he try to stop them.

Adil

Re: Surah tawbah verse 101
« Reply #12 on: January 16, 2020, 02:59:29 AM »
That makes allot of sense what you just said and the more i learn about shiism the more i lean towards the ahlus sunnah wal jamaah.

The shiite brother brought up allot of things which i had absolutely no knowledge of.
Topics like fadak and the right to inherit from the prophet saw, Umar (r.a) attacking Fatima (r.a) etc.
Recently he sent me the hadith of Aamar ibn yasir Al-Bukhaari (447), and is basically saying i'm on the wrong side.
And the Quran verse [62:11] and said look how the sahaba abandoned the prophet during salah.

I remember one day i mentioned Aisha (r.a), and he responded "I hate her and i should've went to the barbeque"
I said which barbeque? he said " There was this barbeque were we celebrate the death of Aisha".
I was shocked and became angry and we had a heated argument but afterwards we cooled down alhamdulilah.
But i don't wanna talk to much about the brother, its quite a interesting story but i don't wanna talk about his private life behind his back, i will just keep learning and refute his arguments insha allah.

By the way, if you or anyone has links on these topics especially the Aamar hadith or the Quran verse please share?

Thank you brother Adil for the links and info.
You should invite him to this forum.

I don't know about all them topics but I imagine the twelvershia website probably has articles. However the ones I do know about I'll talk about.

Here's some about Fadak, idk about it but here's article - http://www.twelvershia.net/?s=fadak
I'm not sure what to search for the Qur'an (62:11) debate point though.

So they normally say Umar (ra) attacked Fatima (ra) and caused her to miscarry. They say that Ali (ra) was in the house at the same time as this occured. So I would begin to ask shia how exactly do they view Ali (ra). Do they view him as brave? Do they call him the lion of Allah? If yes, then they need to use their brains here. Do they seriously believe a man, who is known as the lion of Allah, like Ali (ra) was too scared to save his wife from another human being? It is an insult to Ali (ra) to believe such a story occured.

How can you be on the wrong side when you view Ali (ra) is the fourth rightly guided caliph?
http://www.twelvershia.net/2016/01/14/ammar-calls-them-to-paradise-and-they-call-him-to-hellfire/

He gets that mad over Aisha (ra)? Wait till he learns that some of his imams named their daughters Aisha.

http://forum.twelvershia.net/ex-shias/an-ex-shias-advice-for-truth-seeking-sunnis-and-shias-aal-al-ashab-project/msg17239/#msg17239





« Last Edit: January 16, 2020, 03:05:04 AM by Adil »

MuslimK

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Re: Surah tawbah verse 101
« Reply #13 on: January 16, 2020, 10:32:12 PM »
Thanks brother Adil.

That's a good point you made about the Kharijites never thought about it like that.


Thanks allot akhi

This clarifies everything i got my answers and more.
Once you explained the context and when the verses were revealed everything made sense.
And the links were really helpful to.
It seems that my shiite brother doesn't talk about the context much and tries to convince me with emotions while quoting verses which suites his belief.
May Allah guide this brother and us and keep us steadfast. amin

I have still allot to learn and i will keep learning insha allah.
Thanks again for educating me on these verses.
Barakallahu feek
 

You are welcome brother.


Let me share with you the best Q/A article ever in English language about Fadak:
http://www.twelvershia.net/2014/05/08/fadak-prophetic-inheritance-qa/

As for the Hadith about Ammar then there is seems to confusion even among Sunnis. This is because two different reports have been merged into one. The part that says "He calls them to paradise while they call him to hell" is referring to the time when he was being tortured by the Polytheist of Makkah (it is also a verse of the Quran). It is a separate report. The link brother shared provides evidence for this. Only the other part about the "rebellious group" is talking about the soldiers of Muawiyah and this is a different Hadith.

Anyways, it does not prove what your Shia friend has said that you are "on the wrong side" because how can that even make seen when Ahl-Sunnah believe that Ali was upon the right? It was a civil war/fitna between two groups of believers (even the Quran says there is a possibility that even believers go to war with each other, see Quran 49:9). The Shia with their takfiri attitude want to declare one group to be disbelievers.
« Last Edit: January 16, 2020, 10:34:01 PM by MuslimK »
در خلافت میل نیست ای بی‌خبر
میل کی آید ز بوبکر و عمر
میل اگر بودی در آن دو مقتدا
هر دو کردندی پسر را پیشوا

عطار نِیشابوری

www.Nahjul-Balagha.net | www.TwelverShia.net | www.ghadirkhumm.com

iceman

Re: Surah tawbah verse 101
« Reply #14 on: January 17, 2020, 01:46:16 AM »
It was a civil war/fitna between two groups of believers"

This is absolutely false. This was no civil war between two groups. You hadith the 4th rightly guided Caliph of the Muslims. And that was Ali. Muawiya refused to swear allegiance to Ali and used his influence to oppose Ali.

"when Ahl-Sunnah believe that Ali was upon the right"

This is true. Ali was on Haq as well as being the 4th rightly guided Caliph of the Muslims. Muawiyah was on the wrong therefore on batil. No civil war here. Muawiyah and those who were on his side and supported him caused fitna. Fitna is caused by someone. It doesn't come naturally like illness or storm. Don't mix thruthness with falsehood. Don't be dishonest.

Adil

Re: Surah tawbah verse 101
« Reply #15 on: January 17, 2020, 02:49:26 AM »
It was a civil war/fitna between two groups of believers"

This is absolutely false. This was no civil war between two groups. You hadith the 4th rightly guided Caliph of the Muslims. And that was Ali. Muawiya refused to swear allegiance to Ali and used his influence to oppose Ali.

"when Ahl-Sunnah believe that Ali was upon the right"

This is true. Ali was on Haq as well as being the 4th rightly guided Caliph of the Muslims. Muawiyah was on the wrong therefore on batil. No civil war here. Muawiyah and those who were on his side and supported him caused fitna. Fitna is caused by someone. It doesn't come naturally like illness or storm. Don't mix thruthness with falsehood. Don't be dishonest.

What exactly do you think a civil war is...?

Rationalist

Re: Surah tawbah verse 101
« Reply #16 on: January 17, 2020, 03:13:55 AM »
There is no point of defending Abu Bakr in front of a 12er Shia. They see no difference between Abu Jahl and Abi Bakr. In fact Abi Bakr is worst in their view because he rejected Imamate which in their view is higher than Prophethood. The 12er Shia market Karbala to be a great tragedy, but behind the scenes it all started from Saqifa. If you want to debate against a 12er Shia study the Imamate and study their hadith books. This will give you success. If you are going to talk about Abi Bakr and Umar then the 12er Shia will go into Karbala mode and think that he is honoring Fatima by exposing them. Remember the majority of them are brainwashed to believe they are responsible for her death.

Bolani Muslim

Re: Surah tawbah verse 101
« Reply #17 on: January 17, 2020, 06:00:53 AM »
There is no point of defending Abu Bakr in front of a 12er Shia. They see no difference between Abu Jahl and Abi Bakr. In fact Abi Bakr is worst in their view because he rejected Imamate which in their view is higher than Prophethood. The 12er Shia market Karbala to be a great tragedy, but behind the scenes it all started from Saqifa. If you want to debate against a 12er Shia study the Imamate and study their hadith books. This will give you success. If you are going to talk about Abi Bakr and Umar then the 12er Shia will go into Karbala mode and think that he is honoring Fatima by exposing them. Remember the majority of them are brainwashed to believe they are responsible for her death.

Salaam, I totally agree with you. I have had fruitful discussions with Shias regarding personalities, such as Ubaydullah b. Ali b. Abu Talib, Hisham b. Hakam, Sheikh Saduq, Muhammad Baqir Majlisi, and Ayt Khui. Discussions about the famous Companions (ra) is fruitless as a result of the extreme propoganda they have heard throughout their lives. Discussions about other oft-heard topics, such as matam and mutah are often useless because Shias have built mental walls defending these practices and are misinformed about them. It is common for Shias in the West to believe that zanjir is haram, even though this is not the position of many marjas.

Unfortunately, Sunni scholarship is extremely ill-prepared when it comes to dealing with Shias. Either they know nothing, or the information they know will not help bring Shias closer to Sunni Islam. Telling a Shia that Abu Bakr was good will cause him to form a mental wall, whereas informing him that the majority of their ancient scholars were anthrapromorphists will often times cause them to pause and to question their faith.

Truth7seeker

Re: Surah tawbah verse 101
« Reply #18 on: January 17, 2020, 06:52:46 PM »
Wa'alaykumasalaam

In the second longer vid, the uploader says in the comments that the video has many famous shia speakers in that one. So I assume those kind of things are something that is popular amongst the shia.

Please watch this one aswell:
https://twitter.com/bu_noor89/status/1217002752368398337
Look at the one at 1:10, the supreme leader of the Iran, the most powerful ayotollah on the planet is watching it in the crowd and says nothing and nor does he try to stop them.

I guess you are right brother, may Allah protect us from this.

Truth7seeker

Re: Surah tawbah verse 101
« Reply #19 on: January 17, 2020, 07:19:06 PM »
You should invite him to this forum.

Good idea, i don't think he will do it but i'll ask him.

Quote
I don't know about all them topics but I imagine the twelvershia website probably has articles. However the ones I do know about I'll talk about.

Here's some about Fadak, idk about it but here's article - http://www.twelvershia.net/?s=fadak
I'm not sure what to search for the Qur'an (62:11) debate point though.


Thank you, i'll have look.

Quote
So they normally say Umar (ra) attacked Fatima (ra) and caused her to miscarry. They say that Ali (ra) was in the house at the same time as this occured. So I would begin to ask shia how exactly do they view Ali (ra). Do they view him as brave? Do they call him the lion of Allah? If yes, then they need to use their brains here. Do they seriously believe a man, who is known as the lion of Allah, like Ali (ra) was too scared to save his wife from another human being? It is an insult to Ali (ra) to believe such a story occured.
My thoughts exactly, it just doesn't make sense. There are to many things that don't add up
and i don't think Ali (r.a) would ever allow these things to happen like you said.

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How can you be on the wrong side when you view Ali (ra) is the fourth rightly guided caliph?
http://www.twelvershia.net/2016/01/14/ammar-calls-them-to-paradise-and-they-call-him-to-hellfire/
Yeah thats true and good link btw i didn't know that about the hadith.
I guess there is some confusion on this hadith. Great info.

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He gets that mad over Aisha (ra)? Wait till he learns that some of his imams named their daughters Aisha.


http://forum.twelvershia.net/ex-shias/an-ex-shias-advice-for-truth-seeking-sunnis-and-shias-aal-al-ashab-project/msg17239/#msg17239





He really does bro its quite saddening and i knew about the names and i told him already.
But he said that it doesn't mean anything they are just names.
Which i think is quite a weak counter argument.
Why would you name your kids after people you hate?

But thanks for the links and trouble brother much aprecciated.

Admin note: Quotes fixed.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2020, 11:58:47 PM by MuslimK »

 

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