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confusion about "Refer back to Allah and his Messenger PBUH if a dispute occurs"

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Soccer

The assumption is that Ulil-Amr would not become Messengers.   But if disputes occur each one of them would and the referral is the Messenger.

A Messenger is not necessarily a Nabi nor vice versa.
"Is it so bad, then, to be misunderstood? Pythagoras was misunderstood, and Socrates, and Jesus, and Luther, and Copernicus, and Galileo, and Newton, and every pure and wise spirit that ever took flesh. To be great is to be misunderstood.” ― Ralph Waldo Emerson, Self-Reliance

Mythbuster1

Lets move forward on to the next bit of the verse. Here is the verse again.

"O you who believe! obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those in authority from among you; then if you quarrel about anything, refer it to Allah and the Messenger, if you believe in Allah and the last day; this is better and very good in the end. (4:59)"

This is the following bit.

"then if you quarrel about anything, refer it to Allah and the Messenger"

Now if you differ/disagree/quarrel over anything then what do you do? "Refer it to Allah and his Messenger". OK. Why didn't Allah just say "Obey those in authority from among you; then if you quarrel about anything, refer it to Allah and the Messenger". Then it would be clear and there wouldn't be any confusion.

But Allah has said by starting off with "O you who believe! obey Allah and obey the Messenger". Surely there is a purpose and reason for this. Then Allah mentions the new thing and message "and those in authority from among you".

Allah has clearly mentioned that the obedience towards the Ulul Amre is just as the same as obedience towards Allah and his Messenger s.a.w. Otherwise what's the reason and purpose, what's the logic behind starting off with "O you who believe! obey Allah and obey the Messenger".

Now the confusion is by some and created by some on "then if you quarrel about anything, refer it to Allah and the Messenger". Disagree/differ/quarrel about what? About the new message. And that is if you disagree/differ/quarrel on anything regarding the new message, for example who is or are the Ulul Amre etc then refer the matter towards Allah and his Messenger s.a.w.

Because what's the point and purpose of the Ulul Amre and obedience towards them that if you are going to disagree/differ/quarrel over anything then you are going to refer the matter towards Allah and his Messenger s.a.w then just stick to Allah and his Messenger s.a.w to begin with. There is no point, reason or purpose for the Ulul Amre. And obedience towards them goes out of the window.

No offence but when it comes to certain Sunnis they just don't bother with sense and logic and putting it to use.

😂😂😂😂

You really have to explain your assumptions don’t you😂

This is my point you cannot provide a clear verse instead you are assuming and adding your own theory, 1400 years and only shiites still get it IF you add it in.

Great sense and logic ustaad dimwit, the authority is the divine imams, there you go nothing to it just add your imagination and use the authority for divine imams 😂😂😂😂😂

You have NOTHING else ustaad apart from this!

Great logic by a great ustaad😂👍

iceman

😂😂😂😂

You really have to explain your assumptions don’t you😂

This is my point you cannot provide a clear verse instead you are assuming and adding your own theory, 1400 years and only shiites still get it IF you add it in.

Great sense and logic ustaad dimwit, the authority is the divine imams, there you go nothing to it just add your imagination and use the authority for divine imams 😂😂😂😂😂

You have NOTHING else ustaad apart from this!

Great logic by a great ustaad😂👍

Lol. Lol again. Childish post and childish behaviour.  What's the matter, can't discuss 😊 I know you can't 😊

Soccer

Notice all disputes are in fact, about Quran and Sunnah and how to refer to it or who the authorities are and regarding their commands (in case of Shiites, who Ulil-Amr are is division Ismailis vs twelver vs others).

Quran and Sunnah can't solve disputes in themselves. In Nahjul balagha, it's said to mean Quran and Sunnah, but in tufuqul uqool the exact same letter (as that one) has alternative explanation and words to 4:59 and is in more in line with another report from Imam Hussain.

We need a book from God + Messenger from God to solve disputes. All misunderstanding occurs when role of Nabi and Messenger has been inverted. It's the opposite than what Sunnis say about these words.

A Nabi is one with a book and Messenger means he conveys the clear truth in his own words and he does the conveying.

The reason why it didn't say Ulil-Amr is because if disputes occur, it's not sufficient to get them solved by their roles as Ulil-Amr but rather you need a Messenger.  In the case of disputes which other verses warn not to get into, but in case, you get into them, you need a Messenger to clarify them and reunite people on the truth.

That is one reason, another, is that the last Ulil-Amr would go into occultation, and it would not be possible to refer to him in public, public can't gather around him for a long period - till he comes back that is known.

The Ulil-Amr were not predestined to become Messengers, but if disputes would occur, and divisions and darkness covers the truth, and the clear signs of Quran begin to hidden and darkness of sorcery covers it's clear recitation and flow, Allah (swt) would assign them messages they are to paraphrase in their own words and convey.

So they did end up becoming Messengers...

And so this solves the confusion regarding this.  That, and look at the context of preceding verses linking the issue Authority with the great authority of the family of Abraham. 

So it's obviously the family of Mohammad or the comparison would not make sense.

Also, 4:83 is very calculative. It says what would've happened, it's not a command. It's saying if you referred to these people along with the Messenger, this and that would happen, meaning, the Ulil-Amr are sufficient as guides to matters of safety and fear.

The minhum doesn't refer to Ulil-Amr but the people meant to refer to them.  You got to start seeing alternative interpretations that first impressions.

The reason is quite simple. IT's because there is a sorcery on hearts and minds of humans, and put's locks and ties knots blown upon with respect to Quranic clear recitation.

The Quran, the more knowledge you get, the more profound it becomes, but also the more simple.

This is the Creator watching our divisions saying 4:59.  Think about the divisions we have, and think about the verses after,  which show they have to come to a living Messenger.

There is a huge difference in going to your scholars who tell you the Sunnah is and their interpretation of Quran and Sunnah, and their judgment, than the Messenger.

Disputes - they won't be solved by scholars claiming to be scholars and authorities of Quran and Sunnah. It will be solved by the Mahdi, who will be sent (like ahadith say, they use "will send") by God with signs (miracles) + a message to revive the Quran and Sunnah.

The only thing the Mahdi is not a Nabi and so Quran is the last revelation humanity receives through a channel (which is a Nabi is defined to be in Quran).





« Last Edit: May 24, 2020, 03:40:18 AM by Soccer »
"Is it so bad, then, to be misunderstood? Pythagoras was misunderstood, and Socrates, and Jesus, and Luther, and Copernicus, and Galileo, and Newton, and every pure and wise spirit that ever took flesh. To be great is to be misunderstood.” ― Ralph Waldo Emerson, Self-Reliance

 

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