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Allah is above and distinct from the Creation –Proven from Reliable Shia Reports

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iceman


Noor-us-Sunnah



Noor-us-Sunnah

And what seems to be the problem.
Care to elaborate.

iceman

Care to elaborate.

What's the point of the thread. The purpose of your post.

Noor-us-Sunnah

What's the point of the thread. The purpose of your post.
To read the article, which is to correct your Aqeedah if you believe that Allah is Everywhere/Omnipresent.

whoaretheshia

Allah is above and distinct from the Creation – Proven from Reliable Shia Reports.

https://youpuncturedtheark.wordpress.com/2019/12/15/allah-is-above-and-distinct-from-the-creation-proven-from-reliable-shia-reports/

Salam brother,

I must say, while i profoundly disagree with many of your views, only Allah alone knows your real intentions. You are making a lot of effort in the work you do, though i believe you do make a lot of subtle errors, and not necessarily because you want to or are unintelligent, but because of the fitnah of people who have come before you. I want to think of you are a sincere individual, who puts in a lot of their own personal time and effort into defending what they genuinely believe to be true for the sake of Allah. That is the spirit in which i want to now engage in conversation with you , without intending you bring you to what i believe, but rather, to merely present how i see the errors in your analysis, and then refer the matter to Allah.

My next post will directly address the topic of the thread.
"I leave behind for you two weighty things, which if you hold onto, you will never go astray...the Quran and my Ahlulbayt" - Musnad Ibn Rawayh (al-Albani classes Isnaad *independently* as Hasan, and Matn as authentic, as does Al-Arnaut, Ibn Hajar and others.

whoaretheshia

What brother Noor-Us-Sunnah is doing here is promoting the Salafi/Athari perspective of the attributes of Allah. He then tires to argue that this is was authentic Shia sources themselves imply, and this acts as a response to Shias who reject the idea that Allah is literally above anything , or spatially relative to any physical object.  He also presents some rational and scriptural proof to try to bolster this view.

Many reading this may have no real awareness over what exactly the fuss it all about and what we are debating here. Let me make it simple for you.

Salafis believe that Allah, the Almighty, is literally above. So we essentially have our physical universe, and Allah is literally above his Arsh. They therefore contend that Allah is spatially relative to the rest of creation.

Shias , as well as Orthodox Sunnis who belong to the largest schools of Aqeedah, the Asharis and the Maturidis (opposed to Salafis) believe that Allah existed and there was nothing. Noor-us-Sunnah tried to affirm this too, but it is inconsistent with his belief in Allah being spatially relative to the universe.

Again, Allah existed, and there was nothing. No space, no time, nothing. Allah is not a body, nor does he have a physical form, nor is he contained anywhere. Allah created the universe, and so created time and space. Before Allah created space, there was no space.

What does this mean? Allah was not above anything, or below anything, because Allah was not in space, not contained by anything, nor relative to anything. He is as he always was.

When the universe was created, it was not created above Allah, below Allah. Allah never had a "where" because to have a "where" means you need to have physical coordinates, a confine, and be relative to something else. Allah created the entire concept of "where" when he created limited , created things.

Therefore Allah is not literally everywhere, because he physically is not confined anywhere or to any place, nor does he have any form or confine. The question of "where" does not apply to Allah, because it is a concept he himself created, and it applies to relative, created objects encompassed by space.

When some people say "Allah is everywhere" what they mean is he is everywhere through his knowledge , power, and control. In reality, Allah is neither literally above anywhere, nor he is literally everywhere.

The question of "where" does not apply to Allah.

Far above is he, to be given attributes of the created, when he is the creator of those attributes. He is Allah, the first, and the last, the creator of time and space, and not limited by time and space.


« Last Edit: December 18, 2019, 04:20:13 AM by whoaretheshia »
"I leave behind for you two weighty things, which if you hold onto, you will never go astray...the Quran and my Ahlulbayt" - Musnad Ibn Rawayh (al-Albani classes Isnaad *independently* as Hasan, and Matn as authentic, as does Al-Arnaut, Ibn Hajar and others.

whoaretheshia

The majority of Sunni scholars, as well as Shias, have been united in that Allah is not literally above his Arsh, which is above the Kursiy, which is literally above the seven heavens.

Shias, as well as Sunnis belonging to the Ashari and Maturidi school, encompass the majority of Muslims in totality.

Twelvershianet, Saudi Arabia, as well as most of the current D'awah groups in London and on YouTube , promote the Salafi/Athari creed and one might be forgiven to think they represent the majority, or even dominant view.

This is Hanafi Fiqh channel, dismantling the claim that Allah, the creator of space, of coordinates, or physically connected and relative objects, is himself, limited by the very concepts he created:



This is why i often suggest to anyone who is confused , or skeptical about Shia-Sunni differences to not focus on very complicated, secondary issues, like the differences between Mufid and Saduq, or complex sciences of Hadith, or complex geopolitics, without first looking at Tawheed.

You will be questioned first and foremost on Tawheed, not Geddafi, Safawi Iran, or Khomeini.
« Last Edit: December 18, 2019, 04:26:43 AM by whoaretheshia »
"I leave behind for you two weighty things, which if you hold onto, you will never go astray...the Quran and my Ahlulbayt" - Musnad Ibn Rawayh (al-Albani classes Isnaad *independently* as Hasan, and Matn as authentic, as does Al-Arnaut, Ibn Hajar and others.

Noor-us-Sunnah

What brother Noor-Us-Sunnah is doing here is promoting the Salafi/Athari perspective of the attributes of Allah.
So you mean all the Sunni Imams who were quoted in the starting of article are Salafi?  Well, this is what it implies.

He then tires to argue that this is was authentic Shia sources themselves imply, and this acts as a response to Shias who reject the idea that Allah is literally above anything , or spatially relative to any physical object.  He also presents some rational and scriptural proof to try to bolster this view.

Many reading this may have no real awareness over what exactly the fuss it all about and what we are debating here. Let me make it simple for you.

Salafis believe that Allah, the Almighty, is literally above. So we essentially have our physical universe, and Allah is literally above his Arsh. They therefore contend that Allah is spatially relative to the rest of creation.

Shias , as well as Orthodox Sunnis who belong to the largest schools of Aqeedah, the Asharis and the Maturidis (opposed to Salafis) believe that Allah existed and there was nothing. Noor-us-Sunnah tried to affirm this too, but it is inconsistent with his belief in Allah being spatially relative to the universe.

Again, Allah existed, and there was nothing. No space, no time, nothing. Allah is not a body, nor does he have a physical form, nor is he contained anywhere. Allah created the universe, and so created time and space. Before Allah created space, there was no space.

What does this mean? Allah was not above anything, or below anything, because Allah was not in space, not contained by anything, nor relative to anything. He is as he always was.

When the universe was created, it was not created above Allah, below Allah. Allah never had a "where" because to have a "where" means you need to have physical coordinates, a confine, and be relative to something else. Allah created the entire concept of "where" when he created limited , created things.

Therefore Allah is not literally everywhere, because he physically is not confined anywhere or to any place, nor does he have any form or confine. The question of "where" does not apply to Allah, because it is a concept he himself created, and it applies to relative, created objects encompassed by space.

When some people say "Allah is everywhere" what they mean is he is everywhere through his knowledge , power, and control. In reality, Allah is neither literally above anywhere, nor he is literally everywhere.

The question of "where" does not apply to Allah.

Far above is he, to be given attributes of the created, when he is the creator of those attributes. He is Allah, the first, and the last, the creator of time and space, and not limited by time and space.

I appreciative you for mentioning the fact that, "I have used Authentic Shia reports and Scriptural evidence" in presenting my claim. And respected readers, this is what the beauty of Ahlus-sunnah is, their belief is based on Scriptural evidence and authentic reports, not logic and philosophy, they believe in Allah as He Himself mentioned about Him, or as His Messenger(S) mentioned about Him or His companions. While the deviant people have forsaken the Scriptural evidence and the Authentic reports, and have judged matters based on their Aql(intellect) and logic, which is confined and limited, due to which some people even ended up becoming atheists, because they too try to judge matters based on their Aql. They believe they are smart in questioning that Everything has a beginning and a creator which implies God must have a beginning and creator as well, without understanding that it's against the definition of Creator to be Created, but this doesn't get into their brain, since they tend to use their logic and intellect instead of Scriptural evidence.

Anyways, since I have presented the case of Allah being separate from the creation and above from Shia texts, then I wish to be challenged by authentic reports instead of logic and Kalam. But for he last post you seemed to be empty handed. And as for the question of "Where" for Allah(swt) then if your perception from "where" is creation then know that Allah is separate from it(creation/where), and above it.

If you believe that Allah's Essence is neither above(where/creation) nor in the creation, then you have defined Allah as non-existent, even though you may not claim so, but the implication of definition is for non-existent. So, I congratulate you for accepting Atheist, and while I prefer to stick to what has been mentioned in the scripture(Quran), and reliable reports(ahadeeth).
« Last Edit: December 18, 2019, 01:10:18 PM by Noor-us-Sunnah »

iceman

In the name of Allah, the most beneficent, the most merciful.

"Ahlus-sunnah believe that Allah(SWT) is above the seven heavens, above His ‘Arsh(Throne), and distinct/separated from His creatures, and His creatures are separated from Him. There is a consensus(Ijma) among Ahlus-Sunnah over this belief as stated by the following classical Scholars from Ahlus-Sunnah"

Ok, according to Sunni point of view, just to cut it short we're down here and he's up there. So we don't know what's up there apart from what we're told. And he doesn't know what's down here because he's up there? So Allah is limited to being up there.

"Some of these deviant Sects even include Shias, who either believe that Allah is omnipresent and present everywhere"

Yes we do believe in that but not how you've put it below.

"and dwells in the creation, which implies that He dwells in filthy places, which no sane person could dare to impute to Allah such an attribute. It would also imply that Allah is mingling with His creatures in the heavens and on the earth"

The above is not what we believe in. We believe that you can't limit Allah to a specific area or place. That's what we believe in. Your belief is more in line with the Hindus. They have their gods with and on thrones.
« Last Edit: December 18, 2019, 03:30:39 PM by iceman »

Noor-us-Sunnah

Your belief is more in line with the Hindus. They have their gods with and on thrones.
Actually you aren't aware of Hindu beliefs, because Hindus belief everything is God. And this resembles your belief, because God is everywhere with His Essence, according to you. To be precise your belief is that of Jahamiyyah.

iceman

Actually you aren't aware of Hindu beliefs, because Hindus belief everything is God. And this resembles your belief, because God is everywhere with His Essence, according to you. To be precise your belief is that of Jahamiyyah.

You've got it all mixed up here. Either you aren't aware of the Shia belief regarding tauheed or you're just trying to tamper with the Shia belief on tauheed. It's one or the other. I'll go with the first.

"Now, the question is whether Allah(swt), everywhere and omnipresent with His Essence or Separate and above the creation?"

Allow me to clear your misconception. Allah is everywhere, meaning you can't limit him to one area or place. He isn't confined to a body or structure. You can't say he is present here but not there. He is everywhere and nothing is beyond his knowledge and information.

"So when Allah(swt) created a thing, either He created it and entered it or didn’t enter into it and remained distinct from it"

He definitely created everything. That's an absolute. But entering a creation, that's never been a Shia belief. I don't know where on earth you got that from.

Noor-us-Sunnah


Allow me to clear your misconception. Allah is everywhere, meaning you can't limit him to one area or place. He isn't confined to a body or structure. You can't say he is present here but not there. He is everywhere and nothing is beyond his knowledge and information.
If you believe that He is present everywhere with His Essence NOT knowledge, then you are upon the creed of Jahamiyyah.

iceman

If you believe that He is present everywhere with His Essence NOT knowledge, then you are upon the creed of Jahamiyyah.

Don't worry about my belief, let me worry about that. Focus on and talk about yours. So you believe he isn't everywhere but in a specific area and place.Is that correct?

Noor-us-Sunnah

Don't worry about my belief, let me worry about that. Focus on and talk about yours. So you believe he isn't everywhere but in a specific area and place.Is that correct?
i believe He isnt in the creation but outside of it. So does your Imam. Sounds good.

whoaretheshia

Quote
Proving that Allah(swt) is above and distinct/separated from the creation using authentic Shia Traditions.

Muslims are unanimously agreed upon the belief that, Allah(swt) was there when there was nothing other than Him. This same belief is mentioned in the below Shia tradition.

Imam Abu Ja’far(AS) said: Allah was and there was nothing other than Him. And He has always been All-knowing of whatever is (or, will be). So His knowledge of it before its being is as His knowledge of it after its being. [al-Kafi, Volume 1, hadith 287 : Graded as “Sahih” by Majlisi in Miraat al-Uqool, vol 2, page 10].

Next, in another Shia report we find that, the Kursi of Allah(swt) encompasses the heavens & earth and Everything is in the Kursi.

Fudayl ibn Yasar said: “Once I asked (Imam) Abu ‘Abd Allah(AS), about the words of Allah, the Most Holy, the Most High, ‘His al-Kursi (the Throne) encompasses the heavens and earth.’ He said, ‘O Fudayl everything is in al-Kursi (the Throne), the heavens and earth everything is in al-Kursi.’  [al-Kafi, Volume 1, hadith 333 ; Graded as “ka’s Sahih” by Majlisi in Miraat al-Uqool, vol 2, page 78].

Now, the question is whether Allah(swt), everywhere and omnipresent with His Essence or Separate and above the creation?.

Since we have proven from authentic Shia report that Allah was there when there was nothing besides Him, So when Allah(swt) created a thing, either He created it and entered it or didn’t enter into it and remained distinct from it.

There can be two possibilities:

1: Allah created all things, then entered into them, including jinn, men, devils, and all the wild, squalid, vile places”, Which implies Allah even dwells in His creation.

2: Allah created all things but didn’t enter the creation and doesn’t dwell in His creation and is separate/distinct from His creation.

Interestingly, this query was answered by the Sixth Infallible Imam of Shias in authentic Shia traditions.

Imam Abu Abdillah(AS) said regarding the verse, “There is no secret conference of three but He is their fourth, nor of five but He is their sixth” (58:7). He(SWT) is one and of one Essence, distinct from His creation. Regarding His essence, He described, “He has control over all things through His presence, control, and power. Nothing as small as an atom in the heavens or the Earth is absent from Him – not even things smaller or larger”. [It is] by His control and knowledge rather than His Essence, because places are limited by the four boundaries. If it (i.e. control) were by His essence, it would limit Him. [al-Kafi, Volume 1, hadith 325 ; Graded as “Sahih” by Majlisi in Miraat al-Uqool, vol 2, page 67-68].

If brother Noor-us-Sunnah believes that this is the same as the Salafi/Athari belief, he is mistaken. There is no doubt Allah is distinct from his creation, and there is no doubt that Allah existed and there was nothing that existed with Allah (swt).

However, Noor-us-Sunnah then claims that:

Quote

There can be two possibilities:

1: Allah created all things, then entered into them, including jinn, men, devils, and all the wild, squalid, vile places”, Which implies Allah even dwells in His creation.

2: Allah created all things but didn’t enter the creation and doesn’t dwell in His creation and is separate/distinct from His creation.


This is a false dichotomy; we can not restrict ourselves to only having these two options. Rather, there is a third view, in that Allah, the Almighty, has no form, nor confine, and is above all comprehension. He is the giver of forms, and does not himself have a form.


Al Kafi:
Graded Muwathaq

He said: I said to Abu `Abdillah (Imam Jaffer as-Sadiq)  عليه السلام: I heard Hisham b. al-Hakam narrate from you that Allah has a body, supported by light, His recognition is necessary and He bestows this [knowledge] upon whom He wills from the creation. So he عليه السلام said: Glorified be He, whom no one knows how He is except Himself. There is nothing like unto Him, and He is the Hearing, the Seeing. He cannot be limited, nor can He be felt, nor can He be moved, nor can He be comprehended [by sight, nor by] the senses, nor can He be contained in anything, nor does He have a body, nor does He have a form, nor a figure, nor a confine. (al-Kafi, Volume 1, hadith 278)

What Noor-us-Sunnah believes is that Allah, the Almighty, literally has a location and that is above his throne, literally, which itself is above the Kursiy and the rest of the universe. However, this is blasphemous, because of the following:

1. If Allah always existed, and nothing co-existed with him, then that means place, space, direction , which are creations of Allah, did not exist with him. He existed without space, place or direction.

2. If Allah created space, place, direction, he can't be then limited and described by the very things he himself created!

3. If Allah existed without place, space, or direction, that means he could not create the universe above or below him.

4. If Allah is literally up above, it means he is limited and encompassed by space, which allows him to be restricted and defined by coordinates (i.e. above , literally).


The reality is, this is absurd. Allah, the Almighty, existed and there was no "where". He is the one who created space and "where" for contingent, created beings with forms and shapes, thus limitations. The question of "where" does not apply to Allah, he is neither literally everywhere, nor is he literally above. Allah has no body, nor form, nor confine. To claim Allah has to have a form, a shape, a body, or a confine to exist is blasphemy, and it is to put conditions on the Almighty that which should only apply to the created.

Glory be to Allah, above that which some attribute to him. That is the beauty of worshiping Allah. He is far greater than creation, not limited by that which the creation are limited with.

Brother Noor-us-Sunnah fundamentally misunderstands Shia Aqeedah on Tawheed. It would be more honest to critique the Shia position, rather than to try to shoehorn Salafi Aqeedah and try to put across the idea that our reliable sources agree with it, which is absurd.
« Last Edit: December 19, 2019, 12:20:26 AM by whoaretheshia »
"I leave behind for you two weighty things, which if you hold onto, you will never go astray...the Quran and my Ahlulbayt" - Musnad Ibn Rawayh (al-Albani classes Isnaad *independently* as Hasan, and Matn as authentic, as does Al-Arnaut, Ibn Hajar and others.

Noor-us-Sunnah

This is a false dichotomy; we can not restrict ourselves to only having these two options. Rather, there is a third view, in that Allah, the Almighty, has no form, nor confine, and is above all comprehension. He is the giver of forms, and does not himself have a form.

How is this a third view? Either Allah is inside the creation or separate from it. Your Hadeeth says He is separate/distinct from it. So you claiming that this is a third view is your misunderstanding, it isn't a third view.


Al Kafi:
Graded Muwathaq

He said: I said to Abu `Abdillah (Imam Jaffer as-Sadiq)  عليه السلام: I heard Hisham b. al-Hakam narrate from you that Allah has a body, supported by light, His recognition is necessary and He bestows this [knowledge] upon whom He wills from the creation. So he عليه السلام said: Glorified be He, whom no one knows how He is except Himself. There is nothing like unto Him, and He is the Hearing, the Seeing. He cannot be limited, nor can He be felt, nor can He be moved, nor can He be comprehended [by sight, nor by] the senses, nor can He be contained in anything, nor does He have a body, nor does He have a form, nor a figure, nor a confine. (al-Kafi, Volume 1, hadith 278)
And how does this report refute the view I presented? If you didn't understand my view, atleast ask questions before jumping to conclusions.


What Noor-us-Sunnah believes is that Allah, the Almighty, literally has a location and that is above his throne, literally, which itself is above the Kursiy and the rest of the universe. However, this is blasphemous, because of the following:

1. If Allah always existed, and nothing co-existed with him, then that means place, space, direction , which are creations of Allah, did not exist with him. He existed without space, place or direction.

2. If Allah created space, place, direction, he can't be then limited and described by the very things he himself created!
He is being described by what He Himself described with in his Scripture or what His Messenger taught. It's just like describing with attributes which creation has but His attribute is beyond comprehension, but since Allah and His Prophet(S) described him with those, we do the same. Allah is all Hearing and Seeing, while some of the creatures can see and hear as well. So describing Allah with what He Himself said in His Scripture or What Prophet(S) taught is nothing wrong.


3. If Allah existed without place, space, or direction, that means he could not create the universe above or below him.
So where did Allah create the creation? Inside of Allah ? Ma'azAllah.

4. If Allah is literally up above, it means he is limited and encompassed by space, which allows him to be restricted and defined by coordinates (i.e. above , literally).
Allah beyond creation, if space is creation then it can't encompass Allah. Rather He is encompassing the Creation, yet  separate/distinct from it. If you believe that it means that limiting Allah then Allah being not present in Creation with His Essence and Him being Seperate from it should also be considered limiting Allah as per your logic.

The reality is, this is absurd. Allah, the Almighty, existed and there was no "where". He is the one who created space and "where" for contingent, created beings with forms and shapes, thus limitations.
Now tell me, Where did Allah create space and "where"?


The question of "where" does not apply to Allah, he is neither literally everywhere, nor is he literally above.
If you believe that Allah is neither everywhere(inside creation) nor outside of creation, then you are an Atheist. Whether you like it or not. Because by "where" you mean creation and if you believe Allah isn't even outside of creation, then you imply that Allah doesn't exist, this is the result of the foolish Kalaam.

whoaretheshia

Quote
How is this a third view? Either Allah is inside the creation or separate from it. Your Hadeeth says He is separate/distinct from it. So you claiming that this is a third view is your misunderstanding, it isn't a third view.

Our Hadith, and the consensus of our scholars are united in that there is a third view. Allah is neither somewhere, nor is he everywhere. The question of "where" does not apply to Allah, because as the hadith i have shown you demonstrates, as well as many other traditions bordering on i would say, Tawattur, Allah is without form, shape, and not contained or constrained.


Quote
So where did Allah create the creation? Inside of Allah ? Ma'azAllah.

Do you realize that space itself is a property of this physical universe? If this is the only universe Allah (swt) created, there is no "space" outside the universe. Space, matter, physical reality are all physical properties. Even if you removed all the atoms and left the universe as some kind of quantum vacuum which is space and energy, you would still have space being in and of itself part of the physical realm.

If you really believe , as the noble Quran clearly states, Allah was the first, and as such there was nothing coexisting with him, then you have to also affirm that space did not exist either. Therefore there was no "above" and "below", these are created things. Allah did not create anything above him or below him, he does not have a top side and a bottom side (nauzubillah). To claim so would be to also believe Allah himself was in space, such that there was an above and below.

Allah created the universe, and in creating the universe created space itself.

Quote
Allah beyond creation, if space is creation then it can't encompass Allah. Rather He is encompassing the Creation, yet  separate/distinct from it. If you believe that it means that limiting Allah then Allah being not present in Creation with His Essence and Him being Seperate from it should also be considered limiting Allah as per your logic.

Nobody denies Allah is beyond creation,  that nothing can encompass him, and that he is not present literally in created. However, what you believe is that Allah, literally is above his throne, such that we can literally point up in the direction Allah is, which is above the universe. You believe Allah has an exact location we can point to.

If Allah was literally somewhere, it means he would be literally above his throne. It would therefore mean there would be something that contained Allah (swt), because to have a location means you are in space, or in a contained area bywhich someone can say you are in that area, and above, next to, below etc something else.

Quote
Now tell me, Where did Allah create space and "where"?

When Allah created the universe, that is when he created space, and the idea of "where". "Where" only came into existence after Allah created the first creations. 

If Allah created the universe in already created space, then that space would have had to be created.

Quote
If you believe that Allah is neither everywhere(inside creation) nor outside of creation, then you are an Atheist. Whether you like it or not. Because by "where" you mean creation and if you believe Allah isn't even outside of creation, then you imply that Allah doesn't exist, this is the result of the foolish Kalaam.

1. Allah existed, and there was nothing coexisting with him.
2. Space is a physical creation of Allah, which gives physical or created objects coordinates and directions.
3. Before space existed, "where" therefore did not exist.
4. Allah created the concept of "where" when he created physical creation, and space.
5. Allah can therefore not be described by that which he created. He is as he always was, and the question of "where" does not apply to him.

This is something Christians, Ashari/Maturidi Sunni Muslims, Shia Muslims and many Deists are absolutely united on.
"I leave behind for you two weighty things, which if you hold onto, you will never go astray...the Quran and my Ahlulbayt" - Musnad Ibn Rawayh (al-Albani classes Isnaad *independently* as Hasan, and Matn as authentic, as does Al-Arnaut, Ibn Hajar and others.

 

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