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Allah is above and distinct from the Creation –Proven from Reliable Shia Reports

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whoaretheshia

"I leave behind for you two weighty things, which if you hold onto, you will never go astray...the Quran and my Ahlulbayt" - Musnad Ibn Rawayh (al-Albani classes Isnaad *independently* as Hasan, and Matn as authentic, as does Al-Arnaut, Ibn Hajar and others.

iceman

i believe He isnt in the creation but outside of it. So does your Imam. Sounds good.

"I believe He isnt in the creation"

So do I.

Outside where? Don't be hesitant or shy to discuss your belief. Either he is in a specific area or place. Or he isn't. Does he have a structure? Don't be afraid. Speak up.

This is probably your belief.

"Ahlus-sunnah believe that Allah(SWT) is above the seven heavens, above His ‘Arsh(Throne), and distinct/separated from His creatures, and His creatures are separated from Him. There is a consensus(Ijma) among Ahlus-Sunnah over this belief as stated by the following classical Scholars from Ahlus-Sunnah"

Lets examine this.

"Ahlus-sunnah believe that Allah(SWT) is above the seven heavens"

So he is in a specific area and place. So Allah is over there, above the seven heavens. So he isn't over here or anywhere else.

"above His ‘Arsh(Throne)"

So we get to know that he has a throne. That is something you sit on. So this would mean he has some kind of structure which isn't visible to us because he's over there and we're over here. So probably when we die and our spirit goes over there we will get to see him.

"and distinct/separated from His creatures, and His creatures are separated from Him"

That's obvious. Because we are creation. And he is creator. And we're over here. And he is over there.
« Last Edit: December 19, 2019, 07:10:15 PM by iceman »

Noor-us-Sunnah

"I believe He isnt in the creation"

So do I.

Outside where? Don't be hesitant or shy to discuss your belief. Either he is in a specific area or place. Or he isn't. Does he have a structure? Don't be afraid. Speak up.
That's what you think. He is outside the creation. And if you believe that He is neither inside nor outside of creation, then you believe He is no existent. That's kind of Atheism.

And if you believe He is seperate from creation but Not outside then you taught you this belief? Did your Imam teach this to you?

Noor-us-Sunnah

Our Hadith, and the consensus of our scholars are united in that there is a third view. Allah is neither somewhere, nor is he everywhere. The question of "where" does not apply to Allah, because as the hadith i have shown you demonstrates, as well as many other traditions bordering on i would say, Tawattur, Allah is without form, shape, and not contained or constrained.
Which Hadeeth the one, you quoted? It doesn't show a third view. And you have a problem of making up your own arguments based on your assumptions. I didn't ask you "where is Allah"? I asked you a specific question, which you tend to dodge. I asked you "Is Allah inside the creation or outside and seperate from the creation"? So since you negate Allah being inside the creation, Do you believe He is outside of creation? Because you have negated the existence of Allah's Essence from the creation, Now either you negate His existence from outside the creation like you did for Him being inside creation Or affirm that He is outside of creation. Just by making an empty claim that there is third view, you are just fooling yourself.

Do you realize that space itself is a property of this physical universe? If this is the only universe Allah (swt) created, there is no "space" outside the universe. Space, matter, physical reality are all physical properties. Even if you removed all the atoms and left the universe as some kind of quantum vacuum which is space and energy, you would still have space being in and of itself part of the physical realm.
All these things which you mentioned do you perceive them as creation? If yes then Allah is outside and seperate from it. So if Allah doesn't exist with his Essence in the creation, then are you implying that Allah doesn't exist outside of creation as well, as there is no existence outside creation? Which implies Allah(Swt) doesn't exist as per Shias. Ma'azAllah, this is a horrible and blasphemous belief.


If you really believe , as the noble Quran clearly states, Allah was the first, and as such there was nothing coexisting with him, then you have to also affirm that space did not exist either. Therefore there was no "above" and "below", these are created things. Allah did not create anything above him or below him, he does not have a top side and a bottom side (nauzubillah). To claim so would be to also believe Allah himself was in space, such that there was an above and below.

Allah created the universe, and in creating the universe created space itself.
This isn't the answer to the question. The question was where did Allah create the creation. Inside of Himself? Ma'azAllah! So please answer it, instead of dodging the question with un-needed claims.

Nobody denies Allah is beyond creation,  that nothing can encompass him, and that he is not present literally in created.
MashaAllah! There seems to be some progress. So what's the problem in saying that Allah(swt) exists outside and seperate from creation. Because if you believe that Allah is outside and seperate from creation, you have come a lot closer to the Aqeedah of Ahlus-sunnah.


If Allah was literally somewhere, it means he would be literally above his throne. It would therefore mean there would be something that contained Allah (swt), because to have a location means you are in space, or in a contained area by which someone can say you are in that area, and above, next to, below etc something else.
Now here lies the problem, first you don't get that we believe Allah is outside and seperate from creation, so if this is the primary belief, then it nullifies the claim that Allah is in space which is a creation, while the primary belief is that, Allah is outside of creation. So your logic is actually messed up. You are disregarding a primary belief just to fit the  philosophical arguments you made to negate the belief that Allah is over His throne. And why do Ahlus-sunnah believe that Allah is over His throne? It is because Allah Himself affirmed in Quran and the Prophet(S) acknowledged this in authentic Hadeeth.  While still believing at the same time that Allah is outside of creation be it space or anything.

When Allah created the universe, that is when he created space, and the idea of "where". "Where" only came into existence after Allah created the first creations.
Fine, So Since there was nothing but Allah before He created anything, Did He create the creation inside of Himself?


This is something Christians, Ashari/Maturidi Sunni Muslims, Shia Muslims and many Deists are absolutely united on.
Funny this reminds me of this quote from one of the Salaf.

Sa`eed bin `Aamir Ad-Dab`i (d. 208 H.), one of Imam Bukhari’s teachers, said: «The Jahmiyyah have said worse than the Jews and Christians, the Jews, Christians and the people of religions have agreed that Allah –Tabaraka wa Ta`ala- is over the Throne, and they (the Jahmiyyah) said: ‘There is nothing over the Throne.
https://youpuncturedtheark.files.wordpress.com/2019/12/mukhtasar-al-uluw-for-al-dhahabi-by-al-albani-page-168.png

iceman

That's what you think. He is outside the creation. And if you believe that He is neither inside nor outside of creation, then you believe He is no existent. That's kind of Atheism.

And if you believe He is seperate from creation but Not outside then you taught you this belief? Did your Imam teach this to you?

Why are you so scared stiff to talk about your belief in Allah. You haven't answered anything that I've asked you.

Noor-us-Sunnah

Why are you so scared stiff to talk about your belief in Allah. You haven't answered anything that I've asked you.
The answer is right there, but the problem is your internal fear which makes you state otherwise. Or else, you are too dumb to understand.

iceman

The answer is right there, but the problem is your internal fear which makes you state otherwise. Or else, you are too dumb to understand.

And what fear is that. Why is my internal fear scaring the living daylights out of you.  You start a thread, I ask you simple questions and you go all wonky.

whoaretheshia

Quote
This isn't the answer to the question. The question was where did Allah create the creation. Inside of Himself? Ma'azAllah! So please answer it, instead of dodging the question with un-needed claims.

Brother Noor-us-Sunnah is asking "Where did Allah create the creation".

I have explained to the brother that the question of "Where" did not apply until Allah, the Almighty first created space, and dimension and creation. Without space and dimension, there was no "where". Space , and "Where" are creations of Allah, the Almighty.

To claim that Allah could have only created it in himself, or outside of himself, means there was some "space" outside of Allah. I ask the brother, if Allah was the first, without any other, how could he have existed co-eternally with some external space?

If Allah existed, and there was no space, no dimension, no "where", the when Allah created time, physical matter and space i.e. the universe, that is when "where" first existed because without space and dimension there was no "where".

If "where" is a creation of Allah due to space and dimension, then the question of "where" does not apply to Allah, because he himself created it.

Our Salafi brothers believe that you can literally point to where Allah is i.e. he is up above, literally above the universe, above his created throne. They give Allah place and direction, when place, space, direction and "where" did not exist , but were things Allah created. He is as he always was, above our comprehension, without form or confine, and not described or limited by what he himself created.

This is the Aqeedah of the Shia, and the Aqeedah of the orthodox Ahlus-Sunnah wal Jamaah i.e. the Asharis and Maturidis, and this is the dominant view of the Christians and Jews today.
« Last Edit: December 20, 2019, 09:51:38 PM by whoaretheshia »
"I leave behind for you two weighty things, which if you hold onto, you will never go astray...the Quran and my Ahlulbayt" - Musnad Ibn Rawayh (al-Albani classes Isnaad *independently* as Hasan, and Matn as authentic, as does Al-Arnaut, Ibn Hajar and others.

Noor-us-Sunnah

Brother Noor-us-Sunnah is asking "Where did Allah create the creation".

I have explained to the brother that the question of "Where" did not apply until Allah, the Almighty first created space, and dimension and creation. Without space and dimension, there was no "where". Space , and "Where" are creations of Allah, the Almighty.

To claim that Allah could have only created it in himself, or outside of himself, means there was some "space" outside of Allah. I ask the brother, if Allah was the first, without any other, how could he have existed co-eternally with some external space?

If Allah existed, and there was no space, no dimension, no "where", the when Allah created time, physical matter and space i.e. the universe, that is when "where" first existed because without space and dimension there was no "where".

If "where" is a creation of Allah due to space and dimension, then the question of "where" does not apply to Allah, because he himself created it.

Our Salafi brothers believe that you can literally point to where Allah is i.e. he is up above, literally above the universe, above his created throne. They give Allah place and direction, when place, space, direction and "where" did not exist , but were things Allah created. He is as he always was, above our comprehension, without form or confine, and not described or limited by what he himself created.

This is the Aqeedah of the Shia, and the Aqeedah of the orthodox Ahlus-Sunnah wal Jamaah i.e. the Asharis and Maturidis, and this is the dominant view of the Christians and Jews today.

I know it very well why you are scared to even quote me, when you are answering, you know that you have no answer to my points, that why you try to ruse the readers with such attempts by not quoting me.

You say that Outside of creation means there was space as per your logic. Fine. But here you are stuck with an extremely problematic issue, which is actually blasphemous. Let me explain it to you:

We both accept that Allah doesn't exist inside the creation with His essence.

Now you say that beyond/outside of creation implies that there is space where Allah can't exist, according to you. So it means Allah doesn't exist as per you people. You deny the existence of His essence inside the creation, and you deny the existence of His essence out the creation. Hence this is heretical view, resembling the view of Atheists. Which is contrary to people of religion. May Allah save Muslims from falling into such blasphemous views.

Any person blessed with intellect would realize the heresy in this view. That Allah with His Essence neither exists inside of creation Nor outside of creation. 

While the belief of Ahlus-sunnah is what Quran says and what Prophet Muhammad(S) said in his hadeeth. Alhamdulillah, we Sunnis are proud in follow Quran and the Prophet(S) while for you there is faulty Kalam developed by human beings, due to which you have denied the existence of Allah from outside the creation.

Noor-us-Sunnah

Me and the Shia brother here both are in agreement that Allah with His essence doesn't exist inside the creation. And I think he even believes that there is no existence outside of creation, meaning nothing exist outside of creation or saying outside of creation itself is wrong because there is no such existence. 

So a one-liner for Shia brother's belief would be:

"Allah with His essence doesn't exist in the creation and there is no existence outside of creation".

Is it fine for you Shia brother? If I attributed to you something which you don't believe then let me know and avoid giving explanations, we will proceed gradually if you claim that this isn't your belief. For now just let me know whether I was correct in defining your belief or not?


iceman

Me and the Shia brother here both are in agreement that Allah with His essence doesn't exist inside the creation. And I think he even believes that there is no existence outside of creation, meaning nothing exist outside of creation or saying outside of creation itself is wrong because there is no such existence. 

So a one-liner for Shia brother's belief would be:

"Allah with His essence doesn't exist in the creation and there is no existence outside of creation".

Is it fine for you Shia brother? If I attributed to you something which you don't believe then let me know and avoid giving explanations, we will proceed gradually if you claim that this isn't your belief. For now just let me know whether I was correct in defining your belief or not?

"For now just let me know whether I was correct in defining your belief or not?"

And what about your belief? Why are you too hesitant to answer questions relating to your belief. It's according to the thread and what's being discussed (Tauheed).

iceman

Allah has a hand according to Sunni sources.
Sehih Bukhari
Volume 9, Book 93, Number 479 :
Narrated by Abu Huraira,

"The Prophet said, "On the Day of Resurrection Allah will hold the whole earth and fold the heaven with His right hand and say, 'I am the King: where are the kings of the earth?"'

Allah also has a foot according to Sunni sources.

Sehih Bukhari
Volume 9, Book 93, Number 481 :
Narrated by Anas,

"The Prophet said, "(The people will be thrown into Hell ( Fire) and it will keep on saying, 'Is there any more?' till the Lord of the worlds puts His Foot over it, whereupon its different sides will come close to each other, and it will say, 'Qad! Qad! (enough! enough!) By Your 'Izzat (Honor and Power) and YOUR KARAM (Generosity)!' Paradise will remain spacious enough to accommodate more people until Allah will create some more people and let them dwell in the superfluous space of Paradise.."
« Last Edit: December 23, 2019, 12:12:12 AM by iceman »

iceman

Allah has a hand according to Sunni sources.
Sehih Bukhari
Volume 9, Book 93, Number 479 :
Narrated by Abu Huraira,

"The Prophet said, "On the Day of Resurrection Allah will hold the whole earth and fold the heaven with His right hand and say, 'I am the King: where are the kings of the earth?"'

Allah also has a foot according to Sunni sources.

Sehih Bukhari
Volume 9, Book 93, Number 481 :
Narrated by Anas,

"The Prophet said, "(The people will be thrown into Hell ( Fire) and it will keep on saying, 'Is there any more?' till the Lord of the worlds puts His Foot over it, whereupon its different sides will come close to each other, and it will say, 'Qad! Qad! (enough! enough!) By Your 'Izzat (Honor and Power) and YOUR KARAM (Generosity)!' Paradise will remain spacious enough to accommodate more people until Allah will create some more people and let them dwell in the superfluous space of Paradise.."

According to Sunni sources Allah will be seen.

Sehih Bukhari
Volume 9, Book 93, Number 529 :
Narrated by Jarir,

"We were sitting with the Prophet and he looked at the moon on the night of the full-moon and said, "You people will see your Lord as you see this full moon, and you will have no trouble in seeing Him, so if you can avoid missing (through sleep or business, etc.) a prayer before sunrise (Fajr) and a prayer before sunset (Asr) you must do so." (See Hadith No. 529, Vol. 1)

Volume 9, Book 93, Number 530 :
Narrated by Jarir bin 'Abdullah
The Prophet said, "You will definitely see your Lord with your own eyes."

So anything that can be seen will have some sort of structure, shape or form.

iceman

Sehih Bukhari
Volume 9, Book 93, Number 563 :
Narrated by Abu Qatada,

"When the people slept till so late that they did not offer the (morning) prayer, the Prophet said, "Allah captured your souls (made you sleep) when He willed, and returned them (to your bodies) when He willed." So the people got up and went to answer the call of nature, performed ablution, till the sun had risen and it had become white, then the Prophet got up and offered the prayer"

So if you decide to sleep till late and not bother to offer morning prayers then it ain't your fault and you haven't done anything wrong. Allah captured your souls (made you sleep) when He willed, and returned them (to your bodies) when He willed.

This seems to be getting better and better.

Noor-us-Sunnah

According to Sunni sources Allah will be seen.
O desperate Shia savior, who jumped in to save his Shia friend realizing that he was cornered in a deadly situation, utilizing his invincible weapon of "stupidity", I'm not in a mood to let you derail this topic with your invincible weapon of stupidity. So have some patience and let the other Shia answer. After that I will teach you what your own Imams in your Shia ahadeeth state. For then keep your invincible weapon to yourself, because I can't drop to your level nor do I have your weapon.



Noor-us-Sunnah

Me and the Shia brother here both are in agreement that Allah with His essence doesn't exist inside the creation. And I think he even believes that there is no existence outside of creation, meaning nothing exist outside of creation or saying outside of creation itself is wrong because there is no such existence. 

So a one-liner for Shia brother's belief would be:

"Allah with His essence doesn't exist in the creation and there is no existence outside of creation".

Is it fine for you Shia brother? If I attributed to you something which you don't believe then let me know and avoid giving explanations, we will proceed gradually if you claim that this isn't your belief. For now just let me know whether I was correct in defining your belief or not?

Bump for Shia friend "WhoaretheShia" , I await your response.

iceman

O desperate Shia savior, who jumped in to save his Shia friend realizing that he was cornered in a deadly situation, utilizing his invincible weapon of "stupidity", I'm not in a mood to let you derail this topic with your invincible weapon of stupidity. So have some patience and let the other Shia answer. After that I will teach you what your own Imams in your Shia ahadeeth state. For then keep your invincible weapon to yourself, because I can't drop to your level nor do I have your weapon.

I didn't jump in. I've been here all the time. You're too afraid to engage with me. And that's a fact. What's in sehih Bukhari isn't my stupidity. No need to teach me about my Imam, learn about the flaws within your own aqeedah. Relax and digest what's coming to you from sehih Bukhari at the moment.

muslim720

Therefore there was no "above" and "below", these are created things. Allah did not create anything above him or below him, he does not have a top side and a bottom side (nauzubillah).

Why are you limiting the meaning of "above" and "below" to physical space?  "Above" can also mean "superior to" whereas "below" can also mean "beneath" as in being subservient to Allah (swt) or in His Control.  In other words, Allah (swt) being "above" something or something being "below" Allah (swt) can also mean Allah (swt) is superior to and in control of that something.


Quote
However, what you believe is that Allah, literally is above his throne, such that we can literally point up in the direction Allah is, which is above the universe. You believe Allah has an exact location we can point to.

When someone points up, it is not to show Allah's (swt) location but to point to what appears - humanly at least - to be outside the universe, and by extension, beyond creation.  In other words, a human points up to show God being outside the creation, not to point to his exact physical location.


Quote
If Allah was literally somewhere, it means he would be literally above his throne. It would therefore mean there would be something that contained Allah (swt), because to have a location means you are in space, or in a contained area bywhich someone can say you are in that area, and above, next to, below etc something else.

Classic strawman!  You substantiate your own lack of knowledge with further misunderstanding and misrepresentation.


Quote
1. Allah existed, and there was nothing coexisting with him.
2. Space is a physical creation of Allah, which gives physical or created objects coordinates and directions.
3. Before space existed, "where" therefore did not exist.
4. Allah created the concept of "where" when he created physical creation, and space.
5. Allah can therefore not be described by that which he created. He is as he always was, and the question of "where" does not apply to him.

All this because you took a single interpretation of the word "above" to build up a narrow view which you could then attack.
"Our coward ran from those in authority" - Iceman (admitting the truth regarding his 12th Imam)

Noor-us-Sunnah

Bump for Shia friend "WhoaretheShia" , I await your response.

What an irony, this guy who is confused over his own beliefs and can't answer when he is trapped over his own statements, he made a post(which got deleted due to tech issue on forum) inviting brother Bolani Muslim.

Pathetic and shameless.

Rauf Murtuzov

Allah has a hand according to Sunni sources.
Sehih Bukhari
Volume 9, Book 93, Number 479 :
Narrated by Abu Huraira,

"The Prophet said, "On the Day of Resurrection Allah will hold the whole earth and fold the heaven with His right hand and say, 'I am the King: where are the kings of the earth?"'

What about Quran (38:75, 39:67) ?



 

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