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Salam

The Quran corrects and denies much of the Torah as held by Jews and Christians, just as it verifies much of it.  Most Muslims don't read them to know what Quran is verifying and what is correcting.

Lut (a) for example, is disgraced and is not held in high regard by Jews.  The Torah indeed has mixed verses about him, some showing him in the best light and some showing him in the worst.  It is a contradiction but the Jews won't acknowledge it, and to synthesize will make a very detailed ambiguous philosophy of what it meant that he was righteous yet evil, and how he was saved and yet did what he did with his daughters ,etc.

The Quran however is clear Lut (a) is of the Messengers, one of the chosen, part of the Ahlulbayt (a) of Ibrahim (a), and leader of guidance who is is pure and exalted above the worlds.

Another character that is praised and condemned is Ismail (a).  There are verses that if read in themselves, you would not begin to fathom why Jews don't see him exalted and chosen, and don't see the clear Prophecies of Mohammad (s) in the flow with respect to him.

The reason is because despite those verses praising him, there are verses that condemn him, but if was born of Sarah (a) and covenant was made with him,  there would be no room for this.

In my view, Hagar is a fiction character introduced to show why Ismail (a) is condemned despite the covenant of God with him and God's promise with him and his offspring.

To prove this, I can say for sure, if the jealousy story was the real reason for Ismail (a) being settled near the Kaba, then it would have to be mentioned.  If Hajar is a slave and their is jealousy element, it has to explained in Quran, and in fact, we see she is absent in Quran, not mentioned anywhere.

The hadiths, okay, but they verify practically every fabrication of Jews in some way or another, right, even their unjust laws of killing people who leave the religion made it through.

But Quran itself not only doesn't verify this story, it provides a whole different explanation of Ismail (a) and why he was settled where he was settled.


The reason if you reflect over Quran, why this story was conducted is as follows:


(1) Distort the clear Prophecy and flow of "the who God will send" with respect to Ismail (a) and the covenant, thus trying to blind people to Mohammad (s) in the Torah.

(2) Make the Jews seem like a special people born of Isaac (a) and Jacob (a) and that has chosen them specifically for this reason.

To be special to be born of Jacob (a) or Isaac (a), you have to character attack Ismail (a). But it doesn't make sense if Sarah (a) is the mother, what's the big deal, so the whole story made up, that Ismail (a) was born of a slave, Sarah (a) was jealous, thus Ismail (a) was banished with Hajar (a), and instead of a clear Prophecy of Mohammad (a) you get this different philosophy of not the offspring of Sarah (a),  sort of thing.

To be continued.....

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General Sunni-Shia / Re: Kamal al Haydari on Takfir on non-12ers
« Last post by Soccer on November 27, 2020, 04:02:18 PM »
You also said...
Yet, you don't care if Christians consider you disbelievers or Jews that you follow a fake Prophet or any other religion,


I am saying there will always be trouble makers in the ummah. Yet the best people are those who don't  use the bad apples to represent each group. The Quran is clear on the existence of believers among the Muslims, Jews and Christians. To you this is irrelevant because only 12ers Shia are the only believers of the universe, yet the 12th Imam abandoned you, and still did not make an appearance till this day. Instead you want to tell people that you are the only ones who can love Ahlul bayt.


God reveals in Quran the general rule and allows exceptions.  Zina is haram and prostitution is haram, but then says for women who are pushed towards while hating it, they are forgiven.  It maybe this is force force, or it maybe they are a forced to provide for their child forced type situation.  Both places of the veil in Quran talk about women and being free, and talk about prostitution in both places.

Prostitution in general lands you in hell and Zina (fornication) in general does, but there are exceptions to the rule as Quran itself shows.

Eating pork is haram, but if it's the cheapest protein and same thing with halal food, it's too expensive, and a person is in a harsh financial situation, and doesn't do it out of rebellion, God doesn't hold you accountable for it.

There are people without means to guidance. There are people who literally are too stupid and it's not their fault. There are people working 3 jobs and no time.  God knows who is the exception.

But as a general rule "what was your response to the those sent (by God)", is a legitimate question on the day of judgment.   Being too in love with Dunya to not have given Quran and Mohammad (s) a chance, or his family (a) a chance, to guide us, will not be accepted.

Too apathetic to oppression will never be accepted is another thing.  For sure, some people are doing their best to stay alive and cannot strive in God's way against oppressors. 

But many of us, we are apathetic to the oppression of the oppressors and the poor, and we will be raised with the oppressors for sure in that case.

God knows the exceptions but as a general rule, not striving against oppression and oppressors lands you to hell as well forever and no doubt, there is no way out of hell ever.

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Imamah-Ghaybah / Re: The sorcery and this issue.
« Last post by Soccer on November 24, 2020, 04:51:20 PM »
Yes I have seen that. I need to acknowledge all opinions that are there.

The Sunni stance is to synthesize Qariats, so in this case, you would have to say it means God and the firmly rooted in knowledge know it's interpretation since the stop at Allah (swt) can be seen for emphasis.
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Imamah-Ghaybah / Re: The sorcery and this issue.
« Last post by Rationalist on November 21, 2020, 05:35:51 AM »
Some of the Qariats Sunnis believe also stop there, and not on "Allah" in verse 3:7.



Yes I have seen that. I need to acknowledge all opinions that are there.
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General Sunni-Shia / Re: Kamal al Haydari on Takfir on non-12ers
« Last post by Rationalist on November 20, 2020, 04:32:12 AM »
Interesting but irrelevant as I said.

You also said...
Yet, you don't care if Christians consider you disbelievers or Jews that you follow a fake Prophet or any other religion,


I am saying there will always be trouble makers in the ummah. Yet the best people are those who don't  use the bad apples to represent each group. The Quran is clear on the existence of believers among the Muslims, Jews and Christians. To you this is irrelevant because only 12ers Shia are the only believers of the universe, yet the 12th Imam abandoned you, and still did not make an appearance till this day. Instead you want to tell people that you are the only ones who can love Ahlul bayt.
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General Sunni-Shia / Re: Kamal al Haydari on Takfir on non-12ers
« Last post by Soccer on November 19, 2020, 09:55:56 PM »
You are the one who asked about Jews and Christians. I told you how there are views which do not do takfir on them either.

Interesting but irrelevant as I said.
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General Sunni-Shia / Re: Kamal al Haydari on Takfir on non-12ers
« Last post by Rationalist on November 19, 2020, 09:52:45 PM »
You are the one who asked about Jews and Christians. I told you how there are views which do not do takfir on them either.
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General Sunni-Shia / Re: Kamal al Haydari on Takfir on non-12ers
« Last post by Soccer on November 19, 2020, 09:36:25 PM »
What you are saying is what is said by many Sunnis and Shia scholars. Shaykh Imran Hosein has taken a new approach to understanding the Quran, and has a different view point. His views are also backed by minority tafseers and historical points.

That's interesting but also irrelevant.
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Imamah-Ghaybah / Re: The sorcery and this issue.
« Last post by Soccer on November 19, 2020, 09:28:12 PM »
4) The stop differs for 12er Shia for the verse talking about Mutashabiath verses and the Imams knows how the final meaning with Allah.

Meant of say Mutshabiath here.

Some of the Qariats Sunnis believe also stop there, and not on "Allah" in verse 3:7.

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General Sunni-Shia / Druze And 12er Shia Beliefs
« Last post by Rationalist on November 14, 2020, 07:54:01 PM »
For some reason I was thinking about the Druze people, and I decided to look them up. Although these guys were Ismailis first they have something in common with the 12ers. Here are their belief about Prophethood:

Prophethood
Recognition of prophets in the Druze religion is divided into three sort-of subcategories, the prophet themselves (natiq), their disciples (asas), and witnesses to their message (hujjah). For example, Muhammad is considered a natiq, Ali is considered an asas, but both are considered prophets. Each major prophet had seven minor prophets, and each minor prophet had twelve disciples.


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