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`Ali and `Uthman in Nahj al-Balaghah

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Ijtaba

Re: `Ali and `Uthman in Nahj al-Balaghah
« Reply #60 on: July 28, 2018, 02:56:34 AM »
When a Twelver raises fitna incidents after the death of Uthman, this is what my usual response to him:

تِلْكَ أُمَّةٌ قَدْ خَلَتْ ۖ لَهَا مَا كَسَبَتْ وَلَكُمْ مَا كَسَبْتُمْ ۖ وَلَا تُسْأَلُونَ عَمَّا كَانُوا يَعْمَلُونَ

(Abdul Haleem)
That community passed away. What they earned belongs to them, and what you earn belongs to you: you will not be answerable for their deeds.

-Sura Al-Baqarah, Ayah 134


It got nothing to do with my iman and I won't be questioned about what had happened, for sure.

I thought we all belong to same community i.e. Ummah of Mohammed (s.a.w.w).

Can you please enlighten me about the Ummah at the time of 'Uthman and Ummah at present?

Abu Muhammad

Re: `Ali and `Uthman in Nahj al-Balaghah
« Reply #61 on: July 28, 2018, 05:59:26 AM »
I thought we all belong to same community i.e. Ummah of Mohammed (s.a.w.w).

Can you please enlighten me about the Ummah at the time of 'Uthman and Ummah at present?

Firstly, what does "ummah" mean in the first place?

Secondly, why should I enlighten you about the ummah at the time of Uthman and present. Bottom line, will I be asked about what happened during the fitna in front of Allah?

And also, shall I remind you of another verse as well?:

مَنِ اهْتَدَىٰ فَإِنَّمَا يَهْتَدِي لِنَفْسِهِ ۖ وَمَنْ ضَلَّ فَإِنَّمَا يَضِلُّ عَلَيْهَا ۚ وَلَا تَزِرُ وَازِرَةٌ وِزْرَ أُخْرَىٰ ۗ

(Sahih International)
Whoever  is  guided  is  only  guided  for  [the  benefit  of]  his  soul.  And  whoever  errs  only errs  against  it.  And  no  bearer  of  burdens  will  bear  the  burden  of  another.

-Sura Al-Isra', Ayah 15

Ijtaba

Re: `Ali and `Uthman in Nahj al-Balaghah
« Reply #62 on: July 28, 2018, 11:50:33 AM »
Firstly, what does "ummah" mean in the first place?

Secondly, why should I enlighten you about the ummah at the time of Uthman and present. Bottom line, will I be asked about what happened during the fitna in front of Allah?

And also, shall I remind you of another verse as well?:

مَنِ اهْتَدَىٰ فَإِنَّمَا يَهْتَدِي لِنَفْسِهِ ۖ وَمَنْ ضَلَّ فَإِنَّمَا يَضِلُّ عَلَيْهَا ۚ وَلَا تَزِرُ وَازِرَةٌ وِزْرَ أُخْرَىٰ ۗ

(Sahih International)
Whoever  is  guided  is  only  guided  for  [the  benefit  of]  his  soul.  And  whoever  errs  only errs  against  it.  And  no  bearer  of  burdens  will  bear  the  burden  of  another.

-Sura Al-Isra', Ayah 15

So it means I am right. Ummah of 'Uthman & present day Ummah is one & same - Ummah of Mohammed (s.a.w.w)  :)

Abu Muhammad

Re: `Ali and `Uthman in Nahj al-Balaghah
« Reply #63 on: July 28, 2018, 12:24:23 PM »
So it means I am right. Ummah of 'Uthman & present day Ummah is one & same - Ummah of Mohammed (s.a.w.w)  :)

@Ijtaba

Oo... bacause Uthman's ummah and present day ummah are the same, we will be asked about what they did during the period of fitna after Uthman's death? Is it so?

Just want yo understand Twelvers logic here.

Don't forget to read this verse when answering that question:

مَنِ اهْتَدَىٰ فَإِنَّمَا يَهْتَدِي لِنَفْسِهِ ۖ وَمَنْ ضَلَّ فَإِنَّمَا يَضِلُّ عَلَيْهَا ۚ وَلَا تَزِرُ وَازِرَةٌ وِزْرَ أُخْرَىٰ ۗ

(Sahih International)
Whoever  is  guided  is  only  guided  for  [the  benefit  of]  his  soul.  And  whoever  errs  only errs  against  it.  And  no  bearer  of  burdens  will  bear  the  burden  of  another.

-Sura Al-Isra', Ayah 15

Ijtaba

Re: `Ali and `Uthman in Nahj al-Balaghah
« Reply #64 on: July 28, 2018, 01:33:16 PM »
@Ijtaba

Oo... bacause Uthman's ummah and present day ummah are the same, we will be asked about what they did during the period of fitna after Uthman's death? Is it so?

Just want yo understand Twelvers logic here.

Don't forget to read this verse when answering that question:

مَنِ اهْتَدَىٰ فَإِنَّمَا يَهْتَدِي لِنَفْسِهِ ۖ وَمَنْ ضَلَّ فَإِنَّمَا يَضِلُّ عَلَيْهَا ۚ وَلَا تَزِرُ وَازِرَةٌ وِزْرَ أُخْرَىٰ ۗ

(Sahih International)
Whoever  is  guided  is  only  guided  for  [the  benefit  of]  his  soul.  And  whoever  errs  only errs  against  it.  And  no  bearer  of  burdens  will  bear  the  burden  of  another.

-Sura Al-Isra', Ayah 15

How is this verse related to my asking about events related to assassination of 'Uthman and people involved in his assassination?

I want to learn Ahlul Sunnah's side of story regarding people involved in assassination of 'Uthman and people who rebelled against his government.

Abu Muhammad

Re: `Ali and `Uthman in Nahj al-Balaghah
« Reply #65 on: July 28, 2018, 02:56:28 PM »
How is this verse related to my asking about events related to assassination of 'Uthman and people involved in his assassination?

You won't be asked in front of Allah about what had happened during the fitna after Uthman's death. What had happened, happened. Life moves on. That's all. It isn't that hard to grasp, is it?

تِلْكَ أُمَّةٌ قَدْ خَلَتْ ۖ لَهَا مَا كَسَبَتْ وَلَكُمْ مَا كَسَبْتُمْ ۖ وَلَا تُسْأَلُونَ عَمَّا كَانُوا يَعْمَلُونَ

(Abdul Haleem)
That community passed away. What they earned belongs to them, and what you earn belongs to you: you will not be answerable for their deeds.

-Sura Al-Baqarah, Ayah 134


مَنِ اهْتَدَىٰ فَإِنَّمَا يَهْتَدِي لِنَفْسِهِ ۖ وَمَنْ ضَلَّ فَإِنَّمَا يَضِلُّ عَلَيْهَا ۚ وَلَا تَزِرُ وَازِرَةٌ وِزْرَ أُخْرَىٰ ۗ

(Sahih International)
Whoever  is  guided  is  only  guided  for  [the  benefit  of]  his  soul.  And  whoever  errs  only errs  against  it.  And  no  bearer  of  burdens  will  bear  the  burden  of  another.

-Sura Al-Isra', Ayah 15

iceman

Re: `Ali and `Uthman in Nahj al-Balaghah
« Reply #66 on: July 28, 2018, 02:59:48 PM »
You won't be asked in front of Allah about what had happened during the fitna after Uthman's death. What had happened, happened. Life moves on. That's all. It isn't that hard to grasp, is it?

تِلْكَ أُمَّةٌ قَدْ خَلَتْ ۖ لَهَا مَا كَسَبَتْ وَلَكُمْ مَا كَسَبْتُمْ ۖ وَلَا تُسْأَلُونَ عَمَّا كَانُوا يَعْمَلُونَ

(Abdul Haleem)
That community passed away. What they earned belongs to them, and what you earn belongs to you: you will not be answerable for their deeds.

-Sura Al-Baqarah, Ayah 134


مَنِ اهْتَدَىٰ فَإِنَّمَا يَهْتَدِي لِنَفْسِهِ ۖ وَمَنْ ضَلَّ فَإِنَّمَا يَضِلُّ عَلَيْهَا ۚ وَلَا تَزِرُ وَازِرَةٌ وِزْرَ أُخْرَىٰ ۗ

(Sahih International)
Whoever  is  guided  is  only  guided  for  [the  benefit  of]  his  soul.  And  whoever  errs  only errs  against  it.  And  no  bearer  of  burdens  will  bear  the  burden  of  another.

-Sura Al-Isra', Ayah 15

"You won't be asked in front of Allah about what had happened during the fitna after Uthman's death. What had happened, happened. Life moves on. That's all. It isn't that hard to grasp, is it?"

Yeh life does move on so please move on and cure yourselves from this anti shia sentiment. 😀

Abu Muhammad

Re: `Ali and `Uthman in Nahj al-Balaghah
« Reply #67 on: July 28, 2018, 03:22:15 PM »
"You won't be asked in front of Allah about what had happened during the fitna after Uthman's death. What had happened, happened. Life moves on. That's all. It isn't that hard to grasp, is it?"

Yeh life does move on so please move on and cure yourselves from this anti shia sentiment. 😀


Err... what you guys Twelvers are preaching definitely got something to do with my iman. Unlike incidents after the death of Uthman.

Is it that hard to comprehend?

iceman

Re: `Ali and `Uthman in Nahj al-Balaghah
« Reply #68 on: July 29, 2018, 08:01:53 AM »
Err... what you guys Twelvers are preaching definitely got something to do with my iman. Unlike incidents after the death of Uthman.

Is it that hard to comprehend?

So what's it got to do with your iman?😊

Abu Muhammad

Re: `Ali and `Uthman in Nahj al-Balaghah
« Reply #69 on: July 29, 2018, 09:50:59 AM »
So what's it got to do with your iman?😊

Mr. Smiley is a noob now.

iceman

Re: `Ali and `Uthman in Nahj al-Balaghah
« Reply #70 on: July 29, 2018, 11:07:13 AM »
Mr. Smiley is a noob now.

Mr Smiley? You boys use more smiley faces than anyone. So are you going to tell me what's bothering or effecting your Iman? 😊 Or is this going to be another say and run for you? 😀

Abu Muhammad

Re: `Ali and `Uthman in Nahj al-Balaghah
« Reply #71 on: July 29, 2018, 12:21:09 PM »
Mr Smiley? You boys use more smiley faces than anyone. So are you going to tell me what's bothering or effecting your Iman? 😊 Or is this going to be another say and run for you? 😀

Still a noob.

iceman

Re: `Ali and `Uthman in Nahj al-Balaghah
« Reply #72 on: July 30, 2018, 01:05:04 PM »
Still a noob.

Are you? Well if you'd like to remain one then that's down to you.😊

Abu Muhammad

Re: `Ali and `Uthman in Nahj al-Balaghah
« Reply #73 on: July 30, 2018, 03:53:29 PM »
Are you? Well if you'd like to remain one then that's down to you.😊

Haha...

Ijtaba

Re: `Ali and `Uthman in Nahj al-Balaghah
« Reply #74 on: August 02, 2018, 03:20:53 PM »
You won't be asked in front of Allah about what had happened during the fitna after Uthman's death. What had happened, happened. Life moves on. That's all. It isn't that hard to grasp, is it?

Ok... I won't be asked. Got it. So what's the problem in knowing who was behind 'Uthman's murder and people involved in rebellion against 'Uthman and his government? Two civil wars were fought between Muslims regarding those unknown people. I just want to know who those unknown people were. Simple.

Abu Muhammad

Re: `Ali and `Uthman in Nahj al-Balaghah
« Reply #75 on: August 03, 2018, 05:38:54 AM »
Ok... I won't be asked. Got it. So what's the problem in knowing who was behind 'Uthman's murder and people involved in rebellion against 'Uthman and his government? Two civil wars were fought between Muslims regarding those unknown people. I just want to know who those unknown people were. Simple.

Remember, some sahabahs were requesting qiyas for the killers of Uthman and not the whole of protestors, not even the instigators.

iceman

Re: `Ali and `Uthman in Nahj al-Balaghah
« Reply #76 on: August 03, 2018, 09:54:03 AM »
Remember, some sahabahs were requesting qiyas for the killers of Uthman and not the whole of protestors, not even the instigators.

Why don't you just stop playing around it and answer his questions.

This is what he asked;

"Ok... I won't be asked. Got it. So what's the problem in knowing who was behind 'Uthman's murder and people involved in rebellion against 'Uthman and his government? Two civil wars were fought between Muslims regarding those unknown people. I just want to know who those unknown people were. Simple"

Just answer and address the questions and points. Or is that too difficult? This thread has gone so long and still,

WHO KILLED USMAN AND WHY? WHO WERE THE INSTIGATORS AND WHO THE PERPETRATOR? WHAT WAS THE REASON AND PURPOSE OF HIS MURDER?

still nothing till yet.

Two wars were fought against the establishment, the ruling party, the Islamic Caliphate. Influential figures persuaded people to take up arms and fight the Islamic Caliphate, which they did and a lot of Muslim lives were lost all in the name of bringing those to justice who killed Usman.
« Last Edit: August 03, 2018, 10:04:15 AM by iceman »

Abu Muhammad

Re: `Ali and `Uthman in Nahj al-Balaghah
« Reply #77 on: August 03, 2018, 10:35:47 AM »
Why don't you just stop playing around it and answer his questions.

This is what he asked;

"Ok... I won't be asked. Got it. So what's the problem in knowing who was behind 'Uthman's murder and people involved in rebellion against 'Uthman and his government? Two civil wars were fought between Muslims regarding those unknown people. I just want to know who those unknown people were. Simple"

Just answer and address the questions and points. Or is that too difficult? This thread has gone so long and still,

WHO KILLED USMAN AND WHY? WHO WERE THE INSTIGATORS AND WHO THE PERPETRATOR? WHAT WAS THE REASON AND PURPOSE OF HIS MURDER?

still nothing till yet.

Two wars were fought against the establishment, the ruling party, the Islamic Caliphate. Influential figures persuaded people to take up arms and fight the Islamic Caliphate, which they did and a lot of Muslim lives were lost all in the name of bringing those to justice who killed Usman.

Are you blind? This what I wrote not too long ago:

I myself would love the hear the explanation for this event.

iceman

Re: `Ali and `Uthman in Nahj al-Balaghah
« Reply #78 on: August 04, 2018, 12:45:18 AM »
Are you blind? This what I wrote not too long ago:

It looks like the wrong man got shot 😀

iceman

Re: `Ali and `Uthman in Nahj al-Balaghah
« Reply #79 on: August 06, 2018, 09:25:05 PM »
Can someone shed some light on the following

"she went to Uthman and asked for her share of inheritance from the Prophet (after so many years passed from the demise of the Prophet). Uthman refrained to give Aisha any money, and reminded her that she was one of those who counseled Abu Bakr not to pay the share of inheritance of Fatimah al-Zahra (AS). So if Fatimah does not have any share, then why should she? Hearing this, Aisha became very angry at Uthman, and came out and said to the people:

“Kill this old fool (Na’thal), for he is unbeliever.”

Sunni references:

History of Ibn al-Athir, v3, p206
Lisan al-Arab, v14, p141
al-Iqd al-Farid, v4, p290
Sharh Ibn Abil Hadid, v16, pp 220-223.

 

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