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Ali RA gave his daughter to Umar RA

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Hadrami

Ali RA gave his daughter to Umar RA
« on: March 26, 2015, 04:05:34 PM »
Ameen wrote on Uthman RA Virtue thread
Quote
Now as far as Ali marrying his daughter to Umar is concerned, you mention and believe in this, so it lies on you to prove it by backing it up.

What was the exact age of Umar and Ali's daughter at the time of this marriage??? When and where did this marriage take place??? Who read the Nikah??? Lets just start of with this.

Start a new thread and start answering.


Your top scholars believe it happened you clown, but of course they made a fool of Ali RA by saying he was forced by Umar RA to do so.

Umm Kulthum marriage to Umar RA are not just in shia & sunni books, but it has been AUTHENTICATED by your scholar not just Sunni, so theres not much room for you to manouvre Ameen.

Either you destroy all shia narrations which support the FACT she did married UMAR RA or condemn your  top scholars of hadith for AUTHENTICATING  Sunni "propaganda"

Furkan

Re: Ali RA gave his daughter to Umar RA
« Reply #1 on: March 26, 2015, 04:06:36 PM »
Umm kulthoum was around 18 I think.
Before Qazî Mihemed, President of the first kurdish Republic Mahabad was hanged the iranian judge asked:

“last words?”

Qazî: “I thank Allah: even in death he put my shoes above your heads”

ahlebaitlover

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Re: Ali RA gave his daughter to Umar RA
« Reply #2 on: March 26, 2015, 06:45:09 PM »
bn Sa‘d in his work at-Tabaqat al-Kubra vol. 8 p. 338

I was informed by Anas ibn ‘Iyad al-Laythi, who reports on the authority of Ja‘far ibn Muhammad [as-Sadiq], and he from his father [Muhammad al-Baqir]—

that ‘Umar ibn al-Khattab asked ‘Ali ibn Abi Talib for the hand of Umm Kulthum in marriage. ‘Ali said, "I had kept my daughters for the sons of Ja‘far." ‘Umar said, "Marry her to me, O Abul Hasan, for by Allah, there is no man on the face of the earth who seeks to achieve through her good companionship that which I seek to achieve." ‘Ali said, "I have done so."

Then Umar came to the Muhajirun between the grave of Rasulullah  and the pulpit. They Ali, Uthman, Zubayr, Talhah and Abd ar-Rahman used to sit there, and whenever a matter used to arrive from the frontiers, Umar used to come to them there and consult with them. He came to them and said, "Congratulate me." They congratulated him, and asked, "With whom are we congratulating you, O Amir al-Mu’minin?" He replied, "With the daughter of ‘Ali ibn Abi Talib."

Poor Ameen, is he going to deny this narration by one of his 12 Imams?
Shukran
Syed Asad Ali

ahlebaitlover

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Re: Ali RA gave his daughter to Umar RA
« Reply #3 on: March 26, 2015, 06:46:48 PM »
I wonder if Ali ra was practicing "taqiya" when Umar ra "forced" Ali ra, Hassan ra, Hussain ra???

May Allah guide us to the truth?
Shukran
Syed Asad Ali

Ameen

Re: Ali RA gave his daughter to Umar RA
« Reply #4 on: March 26, 2015, 11:50:17 PM »
Ameen wrote on Uthman RA Virtue thread
Quote
Now as far as Ali marrying his daughter to Umar is concerned, you mention and believe in this, so it lies on you to prove it by backing it up.

What was the exact age of Umar and Ali's daughter at the time of this marriage??? When and where did this marriage take place??? Who read the Nikah??? Lets just start of with this.

Start a new thread and start answering.


Your top scholars believe it happened you clown, but of course they made a fool of Ali RA by saying he was forced by Umar RA to do so.

Umm Kulthum marriage to Umar RA are not just in shia & sunni books, but it has been AUTHENTICATED by your scholar not just Sunni, so theres not much room for you to manouvre Ameen.

Either you destroy all shia narrations which support the FACT she did married UMAR RA or condemn your  top scholars of hadith for AUTHENTICATING  Sunni "propaganda"

You're putting nonsense and rubbish forward to me again. Forget about this and that, who said what and who believes in what. It's just you and me.

You believe that Ali married his daughter to Umar Ibne Khatab, the second Khalif. Lets discuss this like gentlemen. Put forward facts based on reality and present them to me, to back your claim.

When and where did this marriage take place?????????????

What were the ages of Umar and Ali's daughter???????????

Who read the nikah and who were the witnesses??????????

Fatimah was the youngest of the Prophet's (pbuh) daughters, the Prophet (pbuh) didn't consider Umar to be suitable for any of his daughters, never mind Fatimah. No offence, just a fact. And Ali considered him suitable for his daughter????????????

Would you marry your daughter to a man who is old enough to be her great grandfather??!!!!

Please don't give me the excuses. And don't forward me any nonsense. Bring it to me in reality and facts!

Ameen

Re: Ali RA gave his daughter to Umar RA
« Reply #5 on: March 26, 2015, 11:51:39 PM »
Umm kulthoum was around 18 I think.

YOU THINK???? For heavens sake, do your homework.

Ameen

Re: Ali RA gave his daughter to Umar RA
« Reply #6 on: March 26, 2015, 11:53:26 PM »
I wonder if Ali ra was practicing "taqiya" when Umar ra "forced" Ali ra, Hassan ra, Hussain ra???

May Allah guide us to the truth?

First do your homework. Use sense and logic. Then ask for Allah's guidance.

Bolani Muslim


Hadrami

Re: Ali RA gave his daughter to Umar RA
« Reply #8 on: March 27, 2015, 12:09:50 AM »

You're putting nonsense and rubbish forward to me again. Forget about this and that, who said what and who believes in what. It's just you and me.

You believe that Ali married his daughter to Umar Ibne Khatab, the second Khalif. Lets discuss this like gentlemen. Put forward facts based on reality and present them to me, to back your claim.

No ameen, its your own scholars who has AUTHENTICATED the narration, not just Sunni, but then again as usual you are always against your TOP scholars. You can find shia narrations where Ali was forced by Umar, Imam said Umm Khultum was taken, Umm Khultum spend iddah in Ali house after Umar passed away & Im sure many other if you spend time to actually learn about what your TOP scholars actually belief.

When and where did this marriage take place?????????????

What were the ages of Umar and Ali's daughter???????????

Who read the nikah and who were the witnesses??????????

Fatimah was the youngest of the Prophet's (pbuh) daughters, the Prophet (pbuh) didn't consider Umar to be suitable for any of his daughters, never mind Fatimah. No offence, just a fact. And Ali considered him suitable for his daughter????????????

Well, the FACT is it happened even according to shia TOP hadith scholar, so all other question are additional information.

Would you marry your daughter to a man who is old enough to be her great grandfather??!!!!

Well looks like it's OK for your scholars, it was normal practise back then. Same with Rasulullah shallallahu alaihi wasallam marriage to Aisha RA.

Please don't give me the excuses. And don't forward me any nonsense. Bring it to me in reality and facts!
Says the one with TONS of excuses

Hani

Re: Ali RA gave his daughter to Umar RA
« Reply #9 on: March 27, 2015, 12:31:08 AM »
Firstly Ameen, let's say I ask you these same questions about the wife of your 10th Imam, when did `Ali al-Hadi marry her? Who were the witnesses? What was the dowry? Who read the Nikah? What was the age of al-Hadi and his wife at the time of marriage?

Can I conclude that your 11th Imam is never born since we don't know these details?

Secondly, any historical event that takes place will have some details mentioned in history, some events have a lot more details than others, some events are smaller and so less details are known, the amount of details we know about a certain historical event are not a condition in establishing or denying that event.

For example, from the details we know about `Umar's marriage to Umm Kulthoum bint `Ali are:

1- She was a young girl at the time as is apparent from the reports, `Umar even playfully teased her.
2- This marriage took place during the Caliphate of `Umar ibn al-Khattab as is apparent because they married in 17 AH.
3- `Ali was hesitant at first because of his daughter's young age and because he intended to marry her for his young nephew.
4- `Ali sent Hasan and Husayn to accompany Umm Kulthoum to `Umar's majlis.
5- She gave birth to Zayd ibn `Umar and Ruqayyah bint `Umar.
6- Her father took her to his house after `Umar's death.
7- She was `Umar's last wife.
etc...

If you want to dive into the books you'll find a lot of details, but that isn't really necessary, since this marriage is established in authentic Sunni and Shia narrations, who cares about the random details?

عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

Ameen

Re: Ali RA gave his daughter to Umar RA
« Reply #10 on: March 27, 2015, 12:39:44 AM »
It happened??? Ok. There has to be a date, time and place, when and where it happened. And all the questions that go along with it, based on reality and facts. Or did it happen in the wind??? Unless you discuss it with me or bring someone who is capable. Otherwise it's just rubbish!

Narrations are true as well as false. They can be exaggerated as well as fabricated. Hadiths are strong as well as weak. You have areas of confusion and doubt, which are known as grey areas. Lets leave all this aside and discuss on reality and facts like true gentlemen and get to the bottom of it.

This is how I do business. I do not call or consider my self intelligent or knowledgeable. Hey, you tell me??? Lets discuss this!

Hani

Re: Ali RA gave his daughter to Umar RA
« Reply #11 on: March 27, 2015, 12:45:23 AM »
Well you're definitely not knowledgeable.
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

Bolani Muslim

Re: Ali RA gave his daughter to Umar RA
« Reply #12 on: March 27, 2015, 12:48:01 AM »
Ameen, did  you even read the SHIA website?????????  ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ???

Khaled

Re: Ali RA gave his daughter to Umar RA
« Reply #13 on: March 27, 2015, 12:49:52 AM »
It happened??? Ok. There has to be a date, time and place, when and where it happened. And all the questions that go along with it, based on reality and facts. Or did it happen in the wind??? Unless you discuss it with me or bring someone who is capable. Otherwise it's just rubbish!

Firstly Ameen, let's say I ask you these same questions about the wife of your 10th Imam, when did `Ali al-Hadi marry her? Who were the witnesses? What was the dowry? Who read the Nikah? What was the age of al-Hadi and his wife at the time of marriage?

Can I conclude that your 11th Imam is never born since we don't know these details?

I am sincerely doubting that you read the posts you respond to; are you guys sure he isn't a bot?
كلُّ سُلامى من الناس عليه صدقة كلَّ يوم تطلع فيه الشمس، تَعدلُ بين اثنين صدقة، وتعين الرَّجل في دابَّته فتحمله عليها أو ترفع له عليها متاعَه صدقة، والكلمةُ الطيِّبة صدقة، وبكلِّ خطوة تَمشيها إلى الصلاة صدقة، وتُميط الأذى عن الطريق صدقة

Ameen

Re: Ali RA gave his daughter to Umar RA
« Reply #14 on: March 27, 2015, 12:57:38 AM »
Firstly Ameen, let's say I ask you these same questions about the wife of your 10th Imam, when did `Ali al-Hadi marry her? Who were the witnesses? What was the dowry? Who read the Nikah? What was the age of al-Hadi and his wife at the time of marriage?

Can I conclude that your 11th Imam is never born since we don't know these details?

Secondly, any historical event that takes place will have some details mentioned in history, some events have a lot more details than others, some events are smaller and so less details are known, the amount of details we know about a certain historical event are not a condition in establishing or denying that event.

For example, from the details we know about `Umar's marriage to Umm Kulthoum bint `Ali are:

1- She was a young girl at the time as is apparent from the reports, `Umar even playfully teased her.
2- This marriage took place during the Caliphate of `Umar ibn al-Khattab as is apparent because they married in 17 AH.
3- `Ali was hesitant at first because of his daughter's young age and because he intended to marry her for his young nephew.
4- `Ali sent Hasan and Husayn to accompany Umm Kulthoum to `Umar's majlis.
5- She gave birth to Zayd ibn `Umar and Ruqayyah bint `Umar.
6- Her father took her to his house after `Umar's death.
7- She was `Umar's last wife.
etc...

If you want to dive into the books you'll find a lot of details, but that isn't really necessary, since this marriage is established in authentic Sunni and Shia narrations, who cares about the random details?



Brother, a very valid point. This is the type of discussion that I'm looking for. It seems to me the others are more up and ready for a fight rather than a discussion. These questions, which I have asked to find out facts and you have asked to prove a point, are very important questions. They shouldn't be disregarded or considered as random details.

You've asked questions and I should look them up or get someone who knows more about it then I do. There has to be something available, if not all. And if one can't come up with something, even the basic then one should keep their opinion as belief to themselves rather than banging on about it and put it forward as a weighty thing.

If you believe in something yourself then that is fine. If you want to convince others and bang on about it as this really happened believe it or not then, you tell me how this sounds??? Any brother of mine, regardless of what they think about me, puts something forward and wants me to believe in it blindly. They don't want to discuss it. All I get is abuse or counter argument. Not that it bothers me but there you go.

Ameen

Re: Ali RA gave his daughter to Umar RA
« Reply #15 on: March 27, 2015, 01:03:36 AM »
Well you're definitely not knowledgeable.

Ok. Then you must be knowledgeable?? Yep??? Then don't give me a counter argument. Either keep it as your belief but if you want to convince others then you better come up with the basic facts. Forget about the random details.

There are also a lot of Shia and Sunni scholars who strongly don't believe that this marriage took place. It has also been said here that either Ali married her off or some people believe she was taken by force by the man in authority and power. So the difference of opinion is already there and it goes either way.

Ameen

Re: Ali RA gave his daughter to Umar RA
« Reply #16 on: March 27, 2015, 01:06:56 AM »
It happened??? Ok. There has to be a date, time and place, when and where it happened. And all the questions that go along with it, based on reality and facts. Or did it happen in the wind??? Unless you discuss it with me or bring someone who is capable. Otherwise it's just rubbish!

Firstly Ameen, let's say I ask you these same questions about the wife of your 10th Imam, when did `Ali al-Hadi marry her? Who were the witnesses? What was the dowry? Who read the Nikah? What was the age of al-Hadi and his wife at the time of marriage?

Can I conclude that your 11th Imam is never born since we don't know these details?

I am sincerely doubting that you read the posts you respond to; are you guys sure he isn't a bot?

Ok sunshine, would you like to take a shot at the title, where others have failed??? Or are you just all talk??? Show me what you've got.

Khaled

Re: Ali RA gave his daughter to Umar RA
« Reply #17 on: March 27, 2015, 01:07:16 AM »
You've asked questions and I should look them up or get someone who knows more about it then I do. There has to be something available, if not all. And if one can't come up with something, even the basic then one should keep their opinion as belief to themselves rather than banging on about it and put it forward as a weighty thing.

If you believe in something yourself then that is fine.

Then the question is, if you don't know anything about the topic, and you think that "if one can't come up with something... one should keep their opinion... to themselves" then why do you keep "banging on about it?"
كلُّ سُلامى من الناس عليه صدقة كلَّ يوم تطلع فيه الشمس، تَعدلُ بين اثنين صدقة، وتعين الرَّجل في دابَّته فتحمله عليها أو ترفع له عليها متاعَه صدقة، والكلمةُ الطيِّبة صدقة، وبكلِّ خطوة تَمشيها إلى الصلاة صدقة، وتُميط الأذى عن الطريق صدقة

Khaled

Re: Ali RA gave his daughter to Umar RA
« Reply #18 on: March 27, 2015, 01:08:40 AM »
Ok sunshine, would you like to take a shot at the title, where others have failed??? Or are you just all talk??? Show me what you've got.

Brother Hani already put forth enough, its your turn now to prove that there are "a lot of Shia and Sunni scholars who strongly don't believe that this marriage took place."

Like who for example?
كلُّ سُلامى من الناس عليه صدقة كلَّ يوم تطلع فيه الشمس، تَعدلُ بين اثنين صدقة، وتعين الرَّجل في دابَّته فتحمله عليها أو ترفع له عليها متاعَه صدقة، والكلمةُ الطيِّبة صدقة، وبكلِّ خطوة تَمشيها إلى الصلاة صدقة، وتُميط الأذى عن الطريق صدقة

Ameen

Re: Ali RA gave his daughter to Umar RA
« Reply #19 on: March 27, 2015, 01:12:59 AM »
You've asked questions and I should look them up or get someone who knows more about it then I do. There has to be something available, if not all. And if one can't come up with something, even the basic then one should keep their opinion as belief to themselves rather than banging on about it and put it forward as a weighty thing.

If you believe in something yourself then that is fine.

Then the question is, if you don't know anything about the topic, and you think that "if one can't come up with something... one should keep their opinion... to themselves" then why do you keep "banging on about it?"

Open your eyes before talking. I didn't say anything. People asked me why my first Imam married off his daughter to Umar, if he was a bad man and killed Fatimah or was the cause of Fatimah's death. I asked them about this marriage and they, brother love, are BANGING ON about it rather than proving it to some extent if not more.

 

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