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Sunni Shia Discussion Forum => Sahabah-AhlulBayt => Topic started by: TAHIR on February 02, 2020, 01:53:51 PM

Title: Authenticity/existence of the quote "if it was not for Ali , Umar was doomed.
Post by: TAHIR on February 02, 2020, 01:53:51 PM
Asalamo alaykum
Over time my Shia friends claim , Umar (r.a) once said if it was not for Ali (r.a) , Umar was doomed.
"لو لا علي لهلک عمر"
As they say it on Arabic
If somebody may please confirm the existence and authenticity of the phrase
Jazakallaha in advance
Title: Re: Authenticity/existence of the quote "if it was not for Ali , Umar was doomed.
Post by: muslim720 on February 02, 2020, 10:38:42 PM
Salaam alaykum wa rahmatullah,

Welcome to the forums!  This should help: https://mahajjah.com/if-it-were-not-for-ali-umar-would-have-been-destroyed/
Title: Re: Authenticity/existence of the quote "if it was not for Ali , Umar was doomed.
Post by: Rationalist on February 02, 2020, 11:32:31 PM
Yes Ali was a greater faqih than Umar. Some Hanafi also said Abdullah ibn Masood was among the top faqihs. So Umar was a great ruler without being a specialist in fiqh.
Title: Re: Authenticity/existence of the quote "if it was not for Ali , Umar was doomed.
Post by: TAHIR on February 03, 2020, 08:24:02 AM
I disagree!
Hamza b. Abdullah b. 'Umar b. Khattab reported on the authority of his father that Allah's Messenger ( ‌صلی ‌اللہ ‌علیہ ‌وسلم ‌ ) said: While I was asleep I saw (in a dream) a cup containing milk being presented to me. I took out of that until I perceived freshness being reflected through my nails. Then I presented the leftover to 'Umar b. Khattab. They said: Allah's Messenger: How do you interpret it? He said: This implies knowledge. (Al Muslim)
Title: Re: Authenticity/existence of the quote "if it was not for Ali , Umar was doomed.
Post by: TAHIR on February 03, 2020, 08:27:11 AM
Salaam alaykum wa rahmatullah,

Welcome to the forums!  This should help: https://mahajjah.com/if-it-were-not-for-ali-umar-would-have-been-destroyed/

Walaikum Asalam  wa Rahmatullah

Jazakallaha khyran , it was indeed helpful, I may post more finds on this latter on.
Title: Re: Authenticity/existence of the quote "if it was not for Ali , Umar was doomed.
Post by: MuslimK on February 04, 2020, 12:55:59 AM
Asalamo alaykum
Over time my Shia friends claim , Umar (r.a) once said if it was not for Ali (r.a) , Umar was doomed.
"لو لا علي لهلک عمر"
As they say it on Arabic
If somebody may please confirm the existence and authenticity of the phrase
Jazakallaha in advance


Walaikum Salam

Imami Shia believe Omar was evil, hypocrite, disbeliever and enemy of Ahlulbayt (We seek refuge with Allah from such a Kufri belief). Now if Shia accept the mentioned report then it means that if it wasn't for Ali the enemy of Ahlulbayt, the murderer of Fatima, the enemy of Islam etc would have been ruined.

Title: Re: Authenticity/existence of the quote "if it was not for Ali , Umar was doomed.
Post by: TAHIR on February 04, 2020, 11:32:49 AM
To sum up there are atleast three reports which have the words "Umar was doomed, if it was not for:
1.muadh (Sunan darquatani, credits mahajjah.com)
2.ibn Abbas (mussanaf Abdur razzaq , credits Farid)
3. Ali (istiaab Ibn Abdul  Barr)
Context:
All of the reports mention Umar was about to execute rajm on women, one report has the inclusion, she had delivered only six months after marriage and one of the companions suggested delay in execution so that the child is not deprived of maternal care.submiting to the argument Umar (r.a) said the phrase in discussion with name of either of the three sahaba.
While Umar (r.a ) being unaware of a ruling is possible, the same incident popping up thrice and him forgetting the ruling twice is simply impossible.
Thus one can be sure that two of the names in the above list of three is an error.

The narration mentioning Ali comes through Muammal Ibn Ismail , although he is a reliable narrator but there is criticism on his memory.

According to Farid the chain of report in mussanaf Ibn Abdur razzaq, which mentions Ibn Abbas is strongest.

Thus there is much doubt sorounding these words to be exactly meant for Ali (r.a)

And Allah knows best
Title: Re: Authenticity/existence of the quote "if it was not for Ali , Umar was doomed.
Post by: TAHIR on February 04, 2020, 11:37:18 AM
Walaikum Salam

Imami Shia believe Omar was evil, hypocrite, disbeliever and enemy of Ahlulbayt (We seek refuge with Allah from such a Kufri belief). Now if Shia accept the mentioned report then it means that if it wasn't for Ali the enemy of Ahlulbayt, the murderer of Fatima, the enemy of Islam etc would have been ruined.


This could be refuted, they may suggest  that Ali (r.a) meant to grant the child his rights not to save Umar (r.a). However Umar (r.a) being responsive enough to submit to his suggestion and crediting Ali with lavish praise is something that will haunt them.
Title: Re: Authenticity/existence of the quote "if it was not for Ali , Umar was doomed.
Post by: MuslimK on February 04, 2020, 05:38:08 PM
This could be refuted, they may suggest  that Ali (r.a) meant to grant the child his rights not to save Umar (r.a).
They usually quote it to show how Ali saved Omar in every situation without mentioning the story for the child.

Quote
However Umar (r.a) being responsive enough to submit to his suggestion and crediting Ali with lavish praise is something that will haunt them.

Exactly!
Title: Re: Authenticity/existence of the quote "if it was not for Ali , Umar was doomed.
Post by: TAHIR on February 12, 2020, 12:16:03 PM
Detailed Jarrah on muil Ibn ismaeel, through whom the narration mentioning Ali as the one correcting Umar (r.a) comes
And he is is unreliable beyond doubt

https://alsonnah.wordpress.com/2012/01/07/muammal-bin-ismaeel-a-look-at-the-research-of-shaykh-zubair-ali-zai-regarding-him/