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Authenticity/existence of the quote "if it was not for Ali , Umar was doomed.

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TAHIR

Asalamo alaykum
Over time my Shia friends claim , Umar (r.a) once said if it was not for Ali (r.a) , Umar was doomed.
"لو لا علي لهلک عمر"
As they say it on Arabic
If somebody may please confirm the existence and authenticity of the phrase
Jazakallaha in advance

muslim720

Salaam alaykum wa rahmatullah,

Welcome to the forums!  This should help: https://mahajjah.com/if-it-were-not-for-ali-umar-would-have-been-destroyed/
"Our coward ran from those in authority" - Iceman (admitting the truth regarding his 12th Imam)

Rationalist

Yes Ali was a greater faqih than Umar. Some Hanafi also said Abdullah ibn Masood was among the top faqihs. So Umar was a great ruler without being a specialist in fiqh.

TAHIR

I disagree!
Hamza b. Abdullah b. 'Umar b. Khattab reported on the authority of his father that Allah's Messenger ( ‌صلی ‌اللہ ‌علیہ ‌وسلم ‌ ) said: While I was asleep I saw (in a dream) a cup containing milk being presented to me. I took out of that until I perceived freshness being reflected through my nails. Then I presented the leftover to 'Umar b. Khattab. They said: Allah's Messenger: How do you interpret it? He said: This implies knowledge. (Al Muslim)

TAHIR

Salaam alaykum wa rahmatullah,

Welcome to the forums!  This should help: https://mahajjah.com/if-it-were-not-for-ali-umar-would-have-been-destroyed/

Walaikum Asalam  wa Rahmatullah

Jazakallaha khyran , it was indeed helpful, I may post more finds on this latter on.

MuslimK

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Asalamo alaykum
Over time my Shia friends claim , Umar (r.a) once said if it was not for Ali (r.a) , Umar was doomed.
"لو لا علي لهلک عمر"
As they say it on Arabic
If somebody may please confirm the existence and authenticity of the phrase
Jazakallaha in advance


Walaikum Salam

Imami Shia believe Omar was evil, hypocrite, disbeliever and enemy of Ahlulbayt (We seek refuge with Allah from such a Kufri belief). Now if Shia accept the mentioned report then it means that if it wasn't for Ali the enemy of Ahlulbayt, the murderer of Fatima, the enemy of Islam etc would have been ruined.

در خلافت میل نیست ای بی‌خبر
میل کی آید ز بوبکر و عمر
میل اگر بودی در آن دو مقتدا
هر دو کردندی پسر را پیشوا

عطار نِیشابوری

www.Nahjul-Balagha.net | www.TwelverShia.net | www.ghadirkhumm.com

TAHIR

To sum up there are atleast three reports which have the words "Umar was doomed, if it was not for:
1.muadh (Sunan darquatani, credits mahajjah.com)
2.ibn Abbas (mussanaf Abdur razzaq , credits Farid)
3. Ali (istiaab Ibn Abdul  Barr)
Context:
All of the reports mention Umar was about to execute rajm on women, one report has the inclusion, she had delivered only six months after marriage and one of the companions suggested delay in execution so that the child is not deprived of maternal care.submiting to the argument Umar (r.a) said the phrase in discussion with name of either of the three sahaba.
While Umar (r.a ) being unaware of a ruling is possible, the same incident popping up thrice and him forgetting the ruling twice is simply impossible.
Thus one can be sure that two of the names in the above list of three is an error.

The narration mentioning Ali comes through Muammal Ibn Ismail , although he is a reliable narrator but there is criticism on his memory.

According to Farid the chain of report in mussanaf Ibn Abdur razzaq, which mentions Ibn Abbas is strongest.

Thus there is much doubt sorounding these words to be exactly meant for Ali (r.a)

And Allah knows best

TAHIR

Walaikum Salam

Imami Shia believe Omar was evil, hypocrite, disbeliever and enemy of Ahlulbayt (We seek refuge with Allah from such a Kufri belief). Now if Shia accept the mentioned report then it means that if it wasn't for Ali the enemy of Ahlulbayt, the murderer of Fatima, the enemy of Islam etc would have been ruined.


This could be refuted, they may suggest  that Ali (r.a) meant to grant the child his rights not to save Umar (r.a). However Umar (r.a) being responsive enough to submit to his suggestion and crediting Ali with lavish praise is something that will haunt them.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2020, 11:39:00 AM by TAHIR »

MuslimK

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This could be refuted, they may suggest  that Ali (r.a) meant to grant the child his rights not to save Umar (r.a).
They usually quote it to show how Ali saved Omar in every situation without mentioning the story for the child.

Quote
However Umar (r.a) being responsive enough to submit to his suggestion and crediting Ali with lavish praise is something that will haunt them.

Exactly!
در خلافت میل نیست ای بی‌خبر
میل کی آید ز بوبکر و عمر
میل اگر بودی در آن دو مقتدا
هر دو کردندی پسر را پیشوا

عطار نِیشابوری

www.Nahjul-Balagha.net | www.TwelverShia.net | www.ghadirkhumm.com

TAHIR

Detailed Jarrah on muil Ibn ismaeel, through whom the narration mentioning Ali as the one correcting Umar (r.a) comes
And he is is unreliable beyond doubt

https://alsonnah.wordpress.com/2012/01/07/muammal-bin-ismaeel-a-look-at-the-research-of-shaykh-zubair-ali-zai-regarding-him/

 

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