TwelverShia.net Forum

The Three Were Once Good?

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Hani

Re: The Three Were Once Good?
« Reply #20 on: January 21, 2015, 11:26:14 PM »
Brother you said it, "Who knows". Well as long as you don't know I'm afraid it's just gossip and rumours, until you do know. Get to know then you have a strong base. But at the moment it's all just air and wind.

Since you love to ask a lot and never contribute anything useful, let's ask you.

The brother posed two scenarios based on the Imami point of view:

A- They were hypocrites since the beginning.

B- They were pious then they became corrupt over time.

Now,

Do you know a third scenario based on the teachings of Twelverism? If so what is it?

I add, are the two scenarios posed above invalid and not acceptable according to Twelverism? If so, explain why.
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

MuslimK

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Re: The Three Were Once Good?
« Reply #21 on: January 21, 2015, 11:26:19 PM »

So how do you know about these opinions??? And what's the concern about these companions??? Companions are fallible (Gahir e Masoom), everyone is a subject to controversy and one has a right to their opinion just like you gentlemen.


You have been involved in Shia and Sunni discussions for several years and you still don't know these core beliefs of twelver Shia?
در خلافت میل نیست ای بی‌خبر
میل کی آید ز بوبکر و عمر
میل اگر بودی در آن دو مقتدا
هر دو کردندی پسر را پیشوا

عطار نِیشابوری

www.Nahjul-Balagha.net | www.TwelverShia.net | www.ghadirkhumm.com

Hani

Re: The Three Were Once Good?
« Reply #22 on: January 21, 2015, 11:28:35 PM »

You have been involved in Shia and Sunni discussions for several years and you still don't know these core beliefs of twelver Shia?

Before he goes on to answer your question, please let him answer my question first, because drawing/extracting something useful and beneficial for readers from Ameen is a genuinely hard task.
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

Taha

Re: The Three Were Once Good?
« Reply #23 on: January 22, 2015, 01:20:41 AM »

My opinion does not represent the opinion of all Shias.


Abu Bakr was sincere, seeing as he was one of the earliest converts.  I don't believe that story about the fortune teller.  Utter nonsense.  I think he became corrupted by power later, maybe.


Not sure about `Umar and `Uthman.


Shiites have this najis rule including touching humans of different sects or religion, right?


Not quite, but close.  It's only wetness that can transfer najasat.  A Hindu's sweat, for example, is najis.  But his dry hand would not be.

Rationalist

Re: The Three Were Once Good?
« Reply #24 on: January 24, 2015, 05:43:49 PM »

My opinion does not represent the opinion of all Shias.



But your opinion needs to backed by 12er Shia ahadith. I can actually post a third option using 2 ahadith from al Kafi, but then this would contradict the Waliyah concept.


Quote
Not sure about `Umar and `Uthman.

There is a reason why the Prophet (pbuh) married his two daughters to Uthman. Imam Ali (as) also reminds him of his honor. As for Umar he is the most hated among the 12ers. He is hated even more than Muawiyah, Yazid and Abi Sufyan.

Taha

Re: The Three Were Once Good?
« Reply #25 on: January 24, 2015, 08:15:00 PM »
As for Umar he is the most hated among the 12ers. He is hated even more than Muawiyah, Yazid and Abi Sufyan.
Not to me. I get physically sick whenever I hear someone praising Yazeed (l.a) or his father or grandfather (may Allah deal with them justly).

I don't care if people say good things about `Umar. I disagree, sure. But I don't really care since I don't accept the traditional Shia view of `Umar killing Lady of Light Sayida Fatimah Zahra (a.s.w.s)

Allah ta'ala knows best.

Khaled

Re: The Three Were Once Good?
« Reply #26 on: March 02, 2015, 10:41:38 PM »
As for Umar he is the most hated among the 12ers. He is hated even more than Muawiyah, Yazid and Abi Sufyan.
Not to me. I get physically sick whenever I hear someone praising Yazeed (l.a) or his father or grandfather (may Allah deal with them justly).

I don't care if people say good things about `Umar. I disagree, sure. But I don't really care since I don't accept the traditional Shia view of `Umar killing Lady of Light Sayida Fatimah Zahra (a.s.w.s)

Allah ta'ala knows best.
You have heard someone praising Yazeed?

Also why do you disagree with saying good things about Umar رضي الله عنه or anyone who aided the Messenger صلى الله عليه وسلم?  I personally believe that Abu Taalib died as a non-Muslim, and yet I don't get "physically sick" if someone were to praise him nor do I disagree with praising him as there are ahadeeth praising him as well as statements from our scholars from the various schools of thought.  Surely at the very least Omar and Uthman رضي الله عنهما did more for Islam and were much close to the Messenger صلى الله عليه وسلم than Abu Taalib.

Don't you find it very strange بارك الله فيك that part of your religious faith is to hate specific individuals who were involved in political disagreements that are now 1400 years old?
كلُّ سُلامى من الناس عليه صدقة كلَّ يوم تطلع فيه الشمس، تَعدلُ بين اثنين صدقة، وتعين الرَّجل في دابَّته فتحمله عليها أو ترفع له عليها متاعَه صدقة، والكلمةُ الطيِّبة صدقة، وبكلِّ خطوة تَمشيها إلى الصلاة صدقة، وتُميط الأذى عن الطريق صدقة

Muhammad Tazin

Re: The Three Were Once Good?
« Reply #27 on: March 04, 2015, 06:22:50 AM »
Who praises YAzeed?!!!  :o
I have seen just a few people saying "Yazeed may be forgiven by Allah" .

Furkan

Re: The Three Were Once Good?
« Reply #28 on: March 04, 2015, 06:24:49 AM »
Mufti of saud and zakir naik did if I remember good.
Before Qazî Mihemed, President of the first kurdish Republic Mahabad was hanged the iranian judge asked:

“last words?”

Qazî: “I thank Allah: even in death he put my shoes above your heads”

Muhammad Tazin

Re: The Three Were Once Good?
« Reply #29 on: March 04, 2015, 06:36:00 AM »
I also got some Hatred-fabrication from Kitab of Shia-religion:

1. in Tarqeeb al Ma'arif, pg 244 - "Abu Bakr,Umar will not be forgiven by Allah. Those who love Abu bakr,Umar are Kafr"

2. in Mirat al Uqul, pg477(pt 12), said that- " in Sura Ankabut:45 Fahsha is Abu Bakr and MUnkar is Umar"

3.Ruhullah Khomeini compared Uthman(r.a) with YAzeed

... I have heard about Tabrisi is the one who spread the sorcerer myth about abu Bakr(r.a)

Muhammad Tazin

Re: The Three Were Once Good?
« Reply #30 on: March 04, 2015, 06:38:17 AM »
Mufti of saud and zakir naik did if I remember good.

ohho, yah. Dr.Zakir Naik. He and some people apply the hadith of Cyprus for the forgiveness of YAzeed

Furkan

Re: The Three Were Once Good?
« Reply #31 on: March 04, 2015, 06:59:12 AM »
Well they are wrong because before yazeed, another army already had attacked constantinople, I think at 48 AH, while yazeed attacked it at 50 AH or something like that.

On top of that, yazeed isn't even a sahaba, so why put RA behind his name?
Before Qazî Mihemed, President of the first kurdish Republic Mahabad was hanged the iranian judge asked:

“last words?”

Qazî: “I thank Allah: even in death he put my shoes above your heads”

Hadrami

Re: The Three Were Once Good?
« Reply #32 on: March 04, 2015, 06:59:31 AM »
Who praises YAzeed?!!!  :o
I have seen just a few people saying "Yazeed may be forgiven by Allah" .

asking Allah to forgive another Muslim for their sins no matter how big it is are what we do, even if we don't like him or hate the sinful acts that he did. The main question is, do you believe he was a kafir? If not, then you too have asked Allah to forgive Yazid bro, if yes then it raise a question why a sahaba decided to pledge allegiance to a kafir leader & let him lead the ummah. We are not Shia, so we can't say it's because of taqiya.

Furkan

Re: The Three Were Once Good?
« Reply #33 on: March 04, 2015, 07:01:48 AM »
He is muslim, he sinned, he opressed.

Imam ghazali doesn't allow cursing him. Many scholars say that we don't know if yazid did tauba or not, that's why we refrain from cursing etc.
Before Qazî Mihemed, President of the first kurdish Republic Mahabad was hanged the iranian judge asked:

“last words?”

Qazî: “I thank Allah: even in death he put my shoes above your heads”

Muhammad Tazin

Re: The Three Were Once Good?
« Reply #34 on: March 04, 2015, 07:38:54 AM »
Who praises YAzeed?!!!  :o
I have seen just a few people saying "Yazeed may be forgiven by Allah" .

asking Allah to forgive another Muslim for their sins no matter how big it is are what we do, even if we don't like him or hate the sinful acts that he did. The main question is, do you believe he was a kafir? If not, then you too have asked Allah to forgive Yazid bro, if yes then it raise a question why a sahaba decided to pledge allegiance to a kafir leader & let him lead the ummah. We are not Shia, so we can't say it's because of taqiya.

No!!! I didn't mean that he is Kafir! I  hate him as a Zalim. I think that is the view of Ahlus Sunnah. But we don't curse. Allah might forgive him.


On top of that, yazeed isn't even a sahaba, so why put RA behind his name?
Yes! Saying Rahamtullah Alaihi or Raziallahu Anhu - these much praising him is Insane !

Furkan

Re: The Three Were Once Good?
« Reply #35 on: March 04, 2015, 04:27:02 PM »
Is there an analysis on yazeed sinning openly like drinking wine etc? I once read that those narrations that put him in a bad spot are weak?
Before Qazî Mihemed, President of the first kurdish Republic Mahabad was hanged the iranian judge asked:

“last words?”

Qazî: “I thank Allah: even in death he put my shoes above your heads”

Hani

Re: The Three Were Once Good?
« Reply #36 on: March 04, 2015, 04:40:49 PM »
Guys, this is all off topic, I will delete any more posts on Yazeed. If you wish, open a thread about Yazeed, collect narrations and see what you get.
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

Muhammad Tazin

Re: The Three Were Once Good?
« Reply #37 on: March 05, 2015, 09:19:10 AM »
Guys, this is all off topic, I will delete any more posts on Yazeed. If you wish, open a thread about Yazeed, collect narrations and see what you get.

It is true that the topic have been moved!
But that came, as I responded to Taha!  :(

Rationalist

Re: The Three Were Once Good?
« Reply #38 on: June 25, 2015, 11:21:58 PM »
There are two opinions on the status of Abi Bakr, Umar and Uthmaan from the 12er Shia point of view.

1) They were monafiqeen since day one
2) They became monafiqeen since the Prophet (pbuh) passed away.

The first opinion without a doubt contradicts the Quran. However, for the second opinion there is no proof in the 12er Shia  ahadith books.

Sayyed Ayad Jamal Aldin confirms that the monafiqeen did not exist in the Meccan period.


 

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