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Did 'Ali (ra) call Abu Bakr (ra) a liar, deviant etc over Fadak?

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Husayn

According to Shias, yes, per the hadith in Sahih al-Bukhari.

Question - if 'Ali (ra) supposedly got so worked up over this - why didn't he get worked up over his stolen Khilafa?

Why no insult against Abu Bakr (ra) about his Khilafa - why only Fadak?

Was money more important to 'Ali (ra) than his divine right to rule?
إن يتبعون إلا الظن وما تهوى الأنفس

Husayn

Re: Did 'Ali (ra) call Abu Bakr (ra) a liar, deviant etc over Fadak?
« Reply #1 on: May 11, 2016, 08:15:36 AM »
Mr rafidi says in another thread:

Quote
Please advise me why 'Ali (ra) insulted Abu Bakr (ra) when he was supposedly doing taqiyyah out of fear for his life?

Is killing and insulting the same thing ? Could Abu Bakr be dethroned if he was insulted ? Why is that you ignore that part of the hadith yet take everything else ? Imam Ali (as) was told to not contest them for Khilafa if they usurp his rights (as per rafidhi narrations ). Also, he was told that if he could gather enough people then he should fight them, if not, he should save his blood and not make the ummah turn against him by revolting against Abu Bakr since that would throw everything into chaos and Imam Ali (as) would have the same amount of respect that Abu Bakr has in the eyes of us rafidhis.

So you say that Abu Bakr (ra) could not be dethroned if he was insulted?

If that's the case - why didn't 'Ali (ra) openly insult him about stealing his Khilafa?

Why only Fadak?
إن يتبعون إلا الظن وما تهوى الأنفس

Qalander Rafidhi

Re: Did 'Ali (ra) call Abu Bakr (ra) a liar, deviant etc over Fadak?
« Reply #2 on: May 11, 2016, 11:04:52 AM »

Quote
Why no insult against Abu Bakr (ra) about his khilafa ? Why only for Fadak ?

You need to ask yourself that question, brother. If Prophet Muhammad (sawa) gave away more than one piece of land in charity, why was the claim made only for Fadak ?

Quote
Was money more important to 'Ali (ra) than his divine right to rule?

Did Ali (as) go to ask for the share for himself or on behalf of Bibi Fatima (sa) ?
« Last Edit: May 11, 2016, 11:08:14 AM by Qalander Rafidhi »
Ya Ali (as) Madad

Husayn

Re: Did 'Ali (ra) call Abu Bakr (ra) a liar, deviant etc over Fadak?
« Reply #3 on: May 11, 2016, 12:05:09 PM »
^

What a worthless response.
إن يتبعون إلا الظن وما تهوى الأنفس

Qalander Rafidhi

Re: Did 'Ali (ra) call Abu Bakr (ra) a liar, deviant etc over Fadak?
« Reply #4 on: May 11, 2016, 12:07:33 PM »
^

Quote
What a worthless response.

Shouldn't be too hard for you to answer it then ? Come on, brother. Don't give up on me just yet. Lol.
Ya Ali (as) Madad

Husayn

Re: Did 'Ali (ra) call Abu Bakr (ra) a liar, deviant etc over Fadak?
« Reply #5 on: May 11, 2016, 12:10:32 PM »
To add to my opening post:

Khilafa

According to the Shia, 'Ali (ra) protested the stealing of his Khilafa by sitting in his house for 6 months.... and then giving bay'a.

He did not make a single public protest. Nor did he ever mention it again.

Fadak

'Ali (ra) fumed over the "stealing" of Fadak for years - even going so far as to publically denounce and insult Abu Bakr (ra) in the court of the Caliph 'Umar (ra).

To an objective observer, these Shi'i views seem to indicate that 'Ali (ra) cared alot more about money than he did his divine right to rule.
إن يتبعون إلا الظن وما تهوى الأنفس

Qalander Rafidhi

Re: Did 'Ali (ra) call Abu Bakr (ra) a liar, deviant etc over Fadak?
« Reply #6 on: May 11, 2016, 12:31:49 PM »


Khilafa

Quote
According to the Shia, 'Ali (ra) protested the stealing of his Khilafa by sitting in his house for 6 months.... and then giving bay'a.

He did not make a single public protest. Nor did he ever mention it again.
Both the narrations about the inheritance and their stance against Abu Bakr's statement come from your books. Secondly, how long was it before Imam Ali (as) gave bayah to the tyrant 1 ? And how long was it when he went to ask for the share ? According to the sunni narrations, it happened the same night.


Quote
Fadak

'Ali (ra) fumed over the "stealing" of Fadak for years - even going so far as to publically denounce and insult Abu Bakr (ra) in the court of the Caliph 'Umar (ra).

It still hasn't occured to you that he fumed over it because it upset his wife Bibi Fatima (sa). Usurping of his rights, he lived with, but, now they were trying to ( did) usurp the rights of his wife and children.

Quote
To an objective observer, these Shi'i views seem to indicate that 'Ali (ra) cared alot more about money than he did his divine right to rule.

« Last Edit: May 11, 2016, 12:34:55 PM by Qalander Rafidhi »
Ya Ali (as) Madad

Husayn

Re: Did 'Ali (ra) call Abu Bakr (ra) a liar, deviant etc over Fadak?
« Reply #7 on: May 11, 2016, 01:00:37 PM »
Quote
Both the narrations about the inheritance and their stance against Abu Bakr's statement come from your books. Secondly, how long was it before Imam Ali (as) gave bayah to the tyrant 1 ? And how long was it when he went to ask for the share ? According to the sunni narrations, it happened the same night.

Don't try these tricks on me, rafidi, I am well-versed in your tactics.

I am not talking about what is authentically reported in our books - the authentic reports destroy all your myths and fairytales. This is why your sect rejects them.

What am I referring to is the rafidi twisting of Sunni sources.

Quote
It still hasn't occured to you that he fumed over it because it upset his wife Bibi Fatima (sa). Usurping of his rights, he lived with, but, now they were trying to ( did) usurp the rights of his wife and children.

Wait, what!?!

I thought 'Ali (ra) was an infallible angelic being?

He is "fuming"?

And over what?

His divinely appointed responsibility - leadership? Nope! He is fuming over his family being denied wealth and his wife's hurt feelings?

Are you capable of a single coherent non-contradictory statement, ya rafidi?
إن يتبعون إلا الظن وما تهوى الأنفس

Qalander Rafidhi

Re: Did 'Ali (ra) call Abu Bakr (ra) a liar, deviant etc over Fadak?
« Reply #8 on: May 11, 2016, 01:13:45 PM »


Quote
Don't try these tricks on me, rafidi, I am well-versed in your tactics.

I am not talking about what is authentically reported in our books - the authentic reports destroy all your myths
Myths such as the one where only supporters of Abu Bakr heard the hadith but the family of the deceased weren't told about what was to happen to the land they ate from during the time he was alive ? And, only told one wife ? The same wife who's father is making this claim ?



Quote
Wait, what!?!

I thought 'Ali (ra) was an infallible angelic being?

He is "fuming"?

And over what?

His divinely appointed responsibility - leadership? Nope! He is fuming over his family being denied wealth and his wife's hurt feelings?

Are you capable of a single coherent non-contradictory statement, ya rafidi?

Was he claiming it for himself ? Does or does not the narration mention he went ti ask on behalf of his wife ? If you weren't a nasibi, you'd know that out of all those lands the claim was made for only one. All them of them were exclusive properties of Prophet Muhammad (sawa), yet, he forgot to tell his children and son-in-law, yet he told, some random people. Good one.

Go ahead and expose your nasb a bit more. " We love Ahlul Bayt " " That means the wives ".
Ya Ali (as) Madad

Husayn

Re: Did 'Ali (ra) call Abu Bakr (ra) a liar, deviant etc over Fadak?
« Reply #9 on: May 11, 2016, 02:44:35 PM »
The question was:

Why did 'Ali (ra) make such a big fuss over Fadak, while he was practically mute over the issue of Khilafa?

Your answer is (paraphrased):

Ali (ra) was more angry over his wife and kids than himself.

I find several fatal problems with this answer:

1. These are the actions of a normal human being who is influenced by husbandly and paternal emotions. This violates the principle of infallibility that you have prescribed for your Imams.

2. This is a contradiction of the traditional "taqiyyah" excuse of your sect. You realise that you are flying in the face of tradition?

Ofcourse, this is normal for an ithna 'ashari - your sect cannot agree on one story for anything. It just doles out 20 excuses in the hopes that the opponent will waste his time answering each one of them.

3. Now that you've abandoned the excuse of "taqiyyah", you are faced with a major problem. Going back to the original question:

Why did 'Ali (ra) make such a big fuss over Fadak, while he was practically mute over the issue of Khilafa?

Remember, you have abandoned the excuse of taqqiyah.

Try to come up with better answers - or abandon the concept of infalliblity (the core principle of your sect).
إن يتبعون إلا الظن وما تهوى الأنفس

muslim720

Re: Did 'Ali (ra) call Abu Bakr (ra) a liar, deviant etc over Fadak?
« Reply #10 on: May 11, 2016, 03:45:30 PM »
It still hasn't occured to you that he fumed over it because it upset his wife Bibi Fatima (sa). Usurping of his rights, he lived with, but, now they were trying to ( did) usurp the rights of his wife and children.

Imam Ali [ra] stood up when his wife's right was being usurped but did nothing when his wife [ra] was being attacked.  That is Nasb.  I apologize for adding a new dimension to this discussion but please bear with me for if you are on the truth, it should not faze you.

Let us go step by step.

1.  Imam Ali's [ra] Divinely Ordained right (of leadership) was violated at Saqifah.

2.  Abu Bakr [ra] and the rest of the Sahabas [ra] came to attack Fatima [ra] at her house.

3.  Shortly after, Fadak was usurped.

4.  Fatima [ra] delivered the historic sermon of Fadak.

5.  Imam Ali [ra], allegedly, swallowed his pride when his wife [ra] was being beaten and the bitter pill of having had to concede his Divine Right but spoke out only when Fadak was usurped. 

I will let you tell us how you define a man who is indifferent about letting go of something although it was willed for him by Allah [swt], is a bystander (a spectator) when his wife is assaulted in front of him but then "fumes" in rage when a piece of land is at stake!  That is Nasb.

But let me not get sidetracked.  Fatima [ra] was allegedly attacked and as a result, she is supposed to have suffered broken ribs and had a miscarriage.  Somehow, with broken ribs and having had a miscarriage, she gathered the strength to go and deliver a sermon.  Her plea was for Fadak to be returned to her.  Not an ounce of concern for Mohsin [ra].  And Imam Ali [ra], too, was concerned about land, not his son.

Your foundation - since it is firmly planted on lies - comes crashing even when analyzed logically without any need for reports or narrations.
« Last Edit: May 11, 2016, 03:51:32 PM by muslim720 »
"Our coward ran from those in authority" - Iceman (admitting the truth regarding his 12th Imam)

Hadrami

Re: Did 'Ali (ra) call Abu Bakr (ra) a liar, deviant etc over Fadak?
« Reply #11 on: May 11, 2016, 06:00:55 PM »
It still hasn't occured to you that he fumed over it because it upset his wife Bibi Fatima (sa). Usurping of his rights, he lived with, but, now they were trying to ( did) usurp the rights of his wife and children.

Imam Ali [ra] stood up when his wife's right was being usurped but did nothing when his wife [ra] was being attacked.  That is Nasb.  I apologize for adding a new dimension to this discussion but please bear with me for if you are on the truth, it should not faze you.

I was gonna make that same point, but bro muslim720, lets leave husayn take care of this knucklehead shite

Abu Muhammad

Re: Did 'Ali (ra) call Abu Bakr (ra) a liar, deviant etc over Fadak?
« Reply #12 on: May 11, 2016, 06:53:37 PM »
Forgive me to interfere but I could not help myself. Only for this one.

Qalander Rafidhi said:

"Myths such as the one where only supporters of Abu Bakr heard the hadith but the family of the deceased weren't told about what was to happen to the land they ate from during the time he was alive ? And, only told one wife ? The same wife who's father is making this claim ?"

Ahh... if that was the case, Ali r.a. himself was following the "myth" then by managing the fadak the same way Abu Bakar r.a. managed it during his (i.e. Ali) reign as khalifah and not returning it to its "rightful owner".

I thought he was an infallible but yet he didn't know which one was a myth and which one wasn't... hmmm...
« Last Edit: May 11, 2016, 06:55:08 PM by Abu Muhammad »

Hani

Re: Did 'Ali (ra) call Abu Bakr (ra) a liar, deviant etc over Fadak?
« Reply #13 on: May 11, 2016, 08:16:48 PM »

Myths such as the one where only supporters of Abu Bakr heard the hadith but the family of the deceased weren't told about what was to happen to the land they ate from during the time he was alive ? And, only told one wife ? The same wife who's father is making this claim ?


The Hadith was heard by Abu Bakr, `Umar, Talhah, Zubayr, `Abdul-Rahman, `Uthman, abu Hurayrah, Hudhayfah, `Ali,`Abbas, `A'ishah and Juwayriyyah (probably others that I missed too).

In your own books (al-Kafi) `Abbas fought Fatimah over Fadak since he didn't believe it was gifted to her. So you shouldn't have a problem with family members not knowing things.

Quote
It still hasn't occured to you that he fumed over it because it upset his wife Bibi Fatima (sa). Usurping of his rights, he lived with, but, now they were trying to ( did) usurp the rights of his wife and children.

It's not his right, it's a matter of religion, this is God's right, so he's okay when God is angry but he's fuming if Fatimah is angry?

Get a life.
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

Husayn

Re: Did 'Ali (ra) call Abu Bakr (ra) a liar, deviant etc over Fadak?
« Reply #14 on: May 12, 2016, 08:04:07 AM »
Shias will make 1000x threads about 'Ali (ra) complaining over Fadak, citing this source and that.

Yet - so few threads on 'Ali (ra) complaining about his Khilafa being snatched away.
إن يتبعون إلا الظن وما تهوى الأنفس

Ibn Yahya

Re: Did 'Ali (ra) call Abu Bakr (ra) a liar, deviant etc over Fadak?
« Reply #15 on: May 13, 2016, 09:15:21 PM »
Qalandar doesn't that beg the question why 'Ali or al-Hasan didn't reclaim it when they were Khulafah? They had the power to so why didn't they. A simple explanation would be because they never considered it theirs for the taking. A Rafidi explanation would be that he didn't want fitnah. If he wasn't willing to defend what he considered to be his right and wanted to avoid any bloodshed at all, how come he didn't back down to Mu'awiyah or the Khawarij?

أبو ماريا المرزم

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Re: Did 'Ali (ra) call Abu Bakr (ra) a liar, deviant etc over Fadak?
« Reply #16 on: May 14, 2016, 05:16:14 AM »
According to Shias, yes, per the hadith in Sahih al-Bukhari.

Question - if 'Ali (ra) supposedly got so worked up over this - why didn't he get worked up over his stolen Khilafa?

Why no insult against Abu Bakr (ra) about his Khilafa - why only Fadak?

Was money more important to 'Ali (ra) than his divine right to rule?


Well, if you look at Shia debates, you'll notice two thimngs they'll often do. Either they'll quote a weak source or, their silly logic ends up slandering Ahlul Bayt Ra. I was watching a little clip of Ammar Nakshawani the other day. It was about the Quran that was compiled by Ali Ra apparently. He said Ali ra compiled the Qur'an at request of the prophet(saws), with the proper tafsir and in chronological order. The people rejected it, so Ali ra refused to share it. AN goes on to say the only reason why Ali Ra even compiled it was to establish the hujjah on Abu Bakr ra

Two more questions?

If Ali Ra was so fumed about Fadak, why didn't he give it to his sons when he finally became the caliph?

If Ali Ra was brutally usurped of his rights, why did Ali ra initially reject the people's proposal for him to be the caliph after Uthman ra was martyred? 
« Last Edit: May 14, 2016, 05:19:21 AM by أبو ماريا المرزم »
They asked how many will be with the one I hate. I said 313

 

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