TwelverShia.net Forum

Sunni Shia Discussion Forum => Sahabah-AhlulBayt => Topic started by: Pea Ce on August 27, 2020, 12:47:15 AM

Title: Did any of the Sahabah partake in the Battle of Karbala?
Post by: Pea Ce on August 27, 2020, 12:47:15 AM
Assalamu alaikum,

I am asking for more knowledge and understanding, since a Shi'i made a post on another website. He mentioned these names with references:

Quote
1. Kathir ibn Shahab al-Harithi
He was one of the Sahaba. [Tarikh Isbahan vol.2 p.136]

He was one of the commanders of the Army of Umar ibn Sa'd.

[al-Isabah fi Tamyiz al-Sahaba vol.5 p.571]

2.Hajjar ibn Abjar al-Ijli
He was one of the companions. [al-Isabah fi Tamyiz al-Sahaba vol.2 p.167 #1957]

Ibn Ziad sent him as a commander over 1000 soldiers for killing Imam Husain.

[al-Ansab al-Ashraf vol.1 p.416]

3.Abdullah ibn Hasn al-Azdi
He was one of the Sahaba. [al-Isabah fi Tamyiz al-Sahaba vol.4 p.61 #4630]

In the battle of Karbala he called Imam Husain and said: O Husain can you see the water (of the Euphrates River) by Allah you will not drink even one drop from it until you die thirsty.

[Ansab al-Ashraf vol.1 p.417]

4.Abd-ar-Rahman ibn Abi Sabrah al-Ju'fi
He was one of the companions his original name was Uzayr and the prophet named him Abd-ar-Rahman. [al-Isti'ab vol.2 p.834 #1419]

He was appointed as commander by Umar ibn Sa'd over the tribe of Asad and they participated in the battle of Karbala fighting Imam al-Husain. [al-Kamil fit-Tarikh vol.3 p.417]

5.'Azarah ibn Qais al-Ahmasi:
He was one of the sahaba. [al-Isabah fi Tamyiz as-Sahaba vol.5 p.125 #6431]

Umar ibn Sa'd appointed 'Azarah ibn Qais al-Ahmasi as the head of the cavalry of his army.

[Ansab al-Ashraf vol.1 p.419]

He was one of those men who took the heads of the martyrs to Ibn Ziad

[Ansab al-Ashraf vol.1 p.424]

6.Abd al-Rahman ibn Abza al-Khuza’i
A Companion of the Prophet (s) who had prayed behind him. [al-Isabah vol.4 p.239]

He was present in the troops of Ibn Ziyad who fought and killed Imam al-Husain.

[Tahdhib al-Kamal vol.11 p.90 #3731]

7. Abu Abd al-Quddus Shabath b. Rib’i al-Tamimi al-Yarbu’

(I have numbered the names).

So, he quoted seven names here. I do not recognize any of them. What I want to know so that I may rebuke him, is:

1. Are any of these names mentioned a part of the Sahabah?
2. If they were Sahabah and present, how do we Sunnis interpret their presence?
3. What would be a good way of rebuking someone who is posting this to suggest that these men (he says companions) fought against Al-Husayn?

I don't know Arabic and I can't adequately research this, so I am asking for help to get better clarity and understanding.
Title: Re: Did any of the Sahabah partake in the Battle of Karbala?
Post by: MuslimK on August 29, 2020, 12:34:07 PM
Walaikum Salam,

Did the Shia provide the original Arabic text for these quotes?
Title: Re: Did any of the Sahabah partake in the Battle of Karbala?
Post by: Pea Ce on August 29, 2020, 04:55:15 PM
Unfortunately he did not, I thought it was wholly inadequate to do that.

Quote
He also said this:

7. Abu Abd al-Quddus Shabath b. Rib’i al-Tamimi al-Yarbu’

He was a Companion of the Prophet (s) who used to be once on the side of ‘Ali b. Abi Talib, then joined the Khawarij and later was given command of the foot soldiers as part of Ibn Ziyad’s troops in Karbala fighting Imam al-Husain.

Some narrations of the Prophet (s) narrated from Shabath are recorded in:

Abu Dawud, Sunan, kitab al-‘adab, volume 4, page 315.

Al-Nasa’i, al-Sunan al-kubra’, volume 6, page 204.

But some people believe that the truth must be covered up!!!

Al-Qazali and others have said it is forbidden for the preachers and others to narrate the events regarding the killing of al-Husain and the tensions and quarrels that happened between the Sahaba because it arouses hatred and blaming of the Sahaba.

[as-Sawa'iq al-Muhriqah vol.2 p.640]
Title: Re: Did any of the Sahabah partake in the Battle of Karbala?
Post by: Noor-us-Sunnah on August 30, 2020, 02:37:49 AM
Unfortunately he did not, I thought it was wholly inadequate to do that.

That Shia is a liar. Not to bee surprised, it is normal coming from a Shi'ee. Ask him to provide evidence that Shabath b. Rib’i al-Tamimi al-Yarbu’ is a Sahabi. His report in Sunan Abu Dawud(#5064) was declared weak, yet even in this weak report he is narrating from Ali(R) not Prophet(S), which again weakens this Shia claim that he was Sahabi.

He was the same person who contributed in the killing of Uthman(R) too.

Esteemed Sunni scholar Ahmad Ibn Abdullah Ibn Salih Abu al-Hassan al-`Ijli said:

Shabath ibn Rib’i from the tribe of Tamim, he was the first one who contributed in Uthman’s(ra) assassination and the first who headed up the battle of Al-Haruriya (battle of Khawarij) and contributed in Hussain ibn Ali’s(ra) killing. (Source: M’arifat Al-Thiqat of al-Ijli. Vol. 1, Pg. # 448, Person # 814.)

Likewise Ibn Hajar stated: Shabath ibn Rab’i Al-Tamimi Al-Yurbo’i Abu Abd Al-Quddous Al-Kufi… Al-Ijlli said that this was the first individual who assisted in the killing of Uthman(ra) and also participated in the killing of Hussain(r.a). (Source: Tahdeeb Al-Tahdeeb. Vol. 2, Pg. # 149.)

Infact he was deemed a Weak narrator, A Sahabi isn't considered weak narrator by Ahlus-Sunnah.

http://hadith.islam-db.com/narrators/3743/%D8%B4%D8%A8%D8%AB-%D8%A8%D9%86-%D8%B1%D8%A8%D8%B9%D9%8A

So ask that Shia liar to provide evidence. If he can't he is exposed as a liar.
Title: Re: Did any of the Sahabah partake in the Battle of Karbala?
Post by: Pea Ce on August 30, 2020, 05:13:22 PM
So ask that Shia liar to provide evidence. If he can't he is exposed as a liar.

I plan to do that akhi, I'm annoyed by this.
Title: Re: Did any of the Sahabah partake in the Battle of Karbala?
Post by: Pea Ce on August 30, 2020, 05:34:21 PM
I sent him a private message and I will update you all if there is a response, insha'Allah. Or I could call him out on the forum, I'm not sure, but we'll see what he has to say.
Title: Re: Did any of the Sahabah partake in the Battle of Karbala?
Post by: Pea Ce on August 30, 2020, 05:44:57 PM
His reply:

Quote
Insha'allah I'll check the sources and I'll send it to you and if it was a wrong data I'll correct it.
Title: Re: Did any of the Sahabah partake in the Battle of Karbala?
Post by: Pea Ce on August 31, 2020, 06:28:26 AM
This is what he sent me in response:

Quote
salam for now here is a remark from Zarkoli in his book al-A'lam about Shabath ibn Rib'i: أدرك عصر النبوة، ولحق بسجاح المتنبئة، ثم عاد إلى الإسلام he was contemporary to the prophet and he embraced Islam at that time but was deviated for a while and then again he repented and returned to Islam: https://al-maktaba.org/book/12286/2388

btw, you look suspicious because your user is a new user (1 day in reddit) and you are a Sunni and your only activity is your comment on my post in r/shia asking for providing evidence and that makes me think you've created a new user not to be identified by your primary user!!! if you want all the other documentaries about my post I expect a clarification from you, otherwise you take the hard way and use the same site (al-maktaba.org) and search the names of those sahaba in the references that I've provided.

Title: Re: Did any of the Sahabah partake in the Battle of Karbala?
Post by: Noor-us-Sunnah on August 31, 2020, 12:30:20 PM
This is what he sent me in response:

No where does it say that he was a Sahabi. So this guy lied. Owais al-qarni(rah) also was a contemporary of Prophet(S) and a Muslim, but he isn't considered a Sahabi, because the definition of Sahabi is that he must have Prophet(S) in state of belief.
Title: Re: Did any of the Sahabah partake in the Battle of Karbala?
Post by: Pea Ce on August 31, 2020, 05:21:25 PM
Jazakallahu khair. I think you omitted the word "seen", you meant to say "he must have seen", right?
Title: Re: Did any of the Sahabah partake in the Battle of Karbala?
Post by: Noor-us-Sunnah on August 31, 2020, 05:22:53 PM
Jazakallahu khair. I think you omitted the word "seen", you meant to say "he must have seen", right?
wa iyyakum. Yes i missed the word "met".
Title: Re: Did any of the Sahabah partake in the Battle of Karbala?
Post by: Pea Ce on August 31, 2020, 05:30:36 PM
I have sent him a response and let's see if he will correct himself, insha'Allah.
Title: Re: Did any of the Sahabah partake in the Battle of Karbala?
Post by: Noor-us-Sunnah on August 31, 2020, 06:26:22 PM
I have sent him a response and let's see if he will correct himself, insha'Allah.
The problem with his post is:

1. He needs to provide evidence that a person was considered a Sahabi, just being a contemporary of Prophet(S) doesnt mean he was a Sahabi.

2. He needa to provide reliable evidence that they participated in killing of Hussain(R) or battle of Karbala. Reliable meaning it should have a reliable chain of narrators. Most of what people quote comes via Abu Mikhnaf he was a liar , so reports through him aren't accepted as reliable evidence.
Title: Re: Did any of the Sahabah partake in the Battle of Karbala?
Post by: Pea Ce on August 31, 2020, 06:49:41 PM
He said:

Quote
OK I'll send the other sources to you asap. I didn't know about this definition of Sahaba. Can you also provide a source for this definition because I've read somewhere that one of the Sunni scholars (I've forgot his name) who was doing his best to collect the names of all the Sahaba in his book has also counted in unborn children among the Sahaba.
Title: Re: Did any of the Sahabah partake in the Battle of Karbala?
Post by: Pea Ce on August 31, 2020, 06:53:31 PM
He removed this name from his list now, but there are still others name that I hope we can sort through, insha'Allah. I note what you said akhi, if we can give him a quote that explains the definition of a Sahabi that would be useful. He does need to provide evidences that they participated, I agree, I will mention this in my next message, insha'Allah.
Title: Re: Did any of the Sahabah partake in the Battle of Karbala?
Post by: Noor-us-Sunnah on August 31, 2020, 07:55:18 PM
He removed this name from his list now, but there are still others name that I hope we can sort through, insha'Allah. I note what you said akhi, if we can give him a quote that explains the definition of a Sahabi that would be useful. He does need to provide evidences that they participated, I agree, I will mention this in my next message, insha'Allah.

Ibn Hajar said regarding definition of Sahabi: The most correct of what I have come across is that a Sahabi(companion of Prophet) is one who met the Prophet (saw) whilst believing in him, and died as a Muslim. So that includes the one who remained with him for a long time or a short time, and those who narrated from him and those who did not and those who saw him but did not sit with him and those who could not see him due to blindness.(Al-Isaabah of lbn Hajar (1/4-5).

Apart from definition, Scholars deemed him weak narrator isnt it a satisfactory evidence that he wasn't considered a Sahabi by Sunni Scholars?

Title: Re: Did any of the Sahabah partake in the Battle of Karbala?
Post by: Noor-us-Sunnah on August 31, 2020, 08:04:55 PM
Quote
6.Abd al-Rahman ibn Abza al-Khuza’i
A Companion of the Prophet (s) who had prayed behind him. [al-Isabah vol.4 p.239]

He was present in the troops of Ibn Ziyad who fought and killed Imam al-Husain.

[Tahdhib al-Kamal vol.11 p.90 #3731]

Firstly Tahdhib al-Kamaal states that there is difference of opinion among Scholars over him being Sahabi, some Scholars comsidered him taba'ee.

Secondly, I didn't find what he said about him in tahdhib al-kamaal. See #3748,

https://al-maktaba.org/book/3722/8529#p1

I even checked #3731 didn't find anything what he said.
https://al-maktaba.org/book/3722/8492#p1
Title: Re: Did any of the Sahabah partake in the Battle of Karbala?
Post by: Pea Ce on August 31, 2020, 10:39:54 PM
Firstly Tahdhib al-Kamaal states that there is difference of opinion among Scholars over him being Sahabi, some Scholars comsidered him taba'ee.

Secondly, I didn't find what he said about him in tahdhib al-kamaal. See #3748,

https://al-maktaba.org/book/3722/8529#p1

I even checked #3731 didn't find anything what he said.
https://al-maktaba.org/book/3722/8492#p1

Thank you brother, I just checked now and he sent me this:

Quote
1 . كثير بن شهاب الحارثي

قال أبو نعيم الأصبهاني المتوفی : 430: كثير بن شهاب البجلي رأى النبي(ص)

تاريخ أصبهان ج 2 ص 136 ، ، دار النشر : دار الكتب العلمية – بيروت - 1410 هـ-1990م ، الطبعة : الأولى ، تحقيق : سيد كسروي حسن

قال ابن حجر: يقال ان له صحبة ... قلت ومما يقوي ان له صحبة ما تقدم انهم ما كانوا يؤمرون الا الصحابة وكتاب عمر اليه بهذا يدل على انه كان أميرا.

الإصابة في تمييز الصحابة ج 5 ص 571 نشر : دار الجيل – بيروت.

2 . حجار بن أبجر العجلي

حجار بن أبجر بن جابر العجلي له إدراك.

الإصابة في تمييز الصحابة ج 2 ص 167 رقم 1957 ، دار النشر : دار الجيل - بيروت

قال أحمد بن يحيى بن جابر البلاذري (المتوفى : 279هـ): وسرح ابن زياد أيضاً حصين بن تميم في الأربعة الآلاف الذين كانوا معه إلى الحسين بعد شخوص عمر بن سعد بيوم أو يومين، ووجه أيضاً إلى الحسين حجار بن أبجر العجلي في ألف.

أنساب الأشراف ج 1 ص 416

عبد الله بن حصن الأزدي
قال ابن حجر أبو الفضل العسقلاني الشافعي المتوفي: 852: عبد الله بن حصن بن سهل ذكره الطبراني في الصحابة

الإصابة في تمييز الصحابة ج 4 ص 61 رقم 4630، ، دار النشر : دار الجيل - بيروت

وناداه عبد الله بن حصن الأزدي: يا حسين ألا تنظر إلى الماء كأنه كبد السماء، والله لا تذوق منه قطرة حتى تموت عطشاً.

أنساب الأشراف ج 1 ص 417

عبدالرحمن بن أبي سبرة الجعفي
قال ابن عبد البر المتوفي 463: عبد الرحمن بن أبى سبرة الجعفى واسم أبى سبرة زيد بن مالك معدود فى الكوفيين وكان اسمه عزيرا فسماه رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم عبد الرحمن ... .

الاستيعاب ج 2 ص 834 رقم 1419، نشر : دار الجيل – بيروت.

قال ابن الأثير المتوفي: 630هـ : وجعل عمر بن سعد علي ربع أهل المدينة عبد الله بن زهير الأزدي وعلي ربع ربيعة وكندة قيس بن الأشعث بن قيس وعلي ربع مذحج وأسد عبد الرحمن بن أبي سبرة الجعفي وعلي ربع تميم وهمدان الحر بن يزيد الرياحي فشهد هؤلاء كلهم مقتل الحسين.

الكامل في التاريخ ج 3 ص 417 ، دار النشر : دار الكتب العلمية - بيروت

عزرة بن قيس الأحمسي
قال ابن حجر أبو الفضل العسقلاني الشافعي المتوفي: 852: عزرة بن قيس بن غزية الأحمسي البجلي ... وذكره بن سعد في الطبقة الأولى

الإصابة في تمييز الصحابة ج 5 ص 125 رقم 6431، نشر : دار الجيل – بيروت.

وجعل عمر بن سعد ... وعلى الخيل عزرة بن قيس الأحمسي

أنساب الأشراف ج 1 ص 419

واحتزت رؤوس القتلى فحمل إلى ابن زياد اثنان وسبعون رأساً مع شمر... وعزرة بن قيس الأحمسي من بجيلة، فقدموا بالرؤوس على ابن زياد

أنساب الأشراف ج 1 ص 424

6 - عبـد الرحمن بن أَبْـزى

له صحبة وقال أبو حاتم أدرك النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم وصلى خلفه

الإصابة - ابن حجر - ج 4 ص 239

قال المزّي: «سكن الكوفة واستُعمل عليها»، وكان ممّن حضر قتال الإمام عليه السلام بكربلاء،

تهذيب الكمال 11 / 90 رقم 3731

and I have a question that I hope you can help me with that: who are Nawasib (نواصب) according to Sunni scholars and what is their stance regarding them? what about the Khawarij?

I will tell him about Ibn Hajar's statement.
Title: Re: Did any of the Sahabah partake in the Battle of Karbala?
Post by: Pea Ce on August 31, 2020, 11:18:22 PM
Ibn Hajar said regarding definition of Sahabi: The most correct of what I have come across is that a Sahabi(companion of Prophet) is one who met the Prophet (saw) whilst believing in him, and died as a Muslim. So that includes the one who remained with him for a long time or a short time, and those who narrated from him and those who did not and those who saw him but did not sit with him and those who could not see him due to blindness.(Al-Isaabah of lbn Hajar (1/4-5).

Apart from definition, Scholars deemed him weak narrator isnt it a satisfactory evidence that he wasn't considered a Sahabi by Sunni Scholars?

He had this to say in response:

Quote
At the beginning I didn't check why they graded his narration as weak and thought maybe he had a flaw in his memory (Dhabt) or because once he was deviated from Islam. Anyways only for this one (Shabath) I relied on an article which turned out to be problematic but about the rest of them I am sure and you can see the Arabic texts for yourself.

What about Nawasib and Khawarij? Their definition and whether grade in terms of authenticity?
Title: Re: Did any of the Sahabah partake in the Battle of Karbala?
Post by: Noor-us-Sunnah on August 31, 2020, 11:43:11 PM
Thank you brother, I just checked now and he sent me this:

I will tell him about Ibn Hajar's statement.

Brother first he said: and use the same site (al-maktaba.org) and search the names of those sahaba in the references that I've provided.

I checked the same and couldn't find this statement (وكان ممّن حضر قتال الإمام عليه السلام بكربلاء،). I gave him the link of the book he is quoting(tahdhib al-kamaal) but i cant find this statement. So ask him to provide a scan pagefrom this book or online link(even though i already gave the link in last post).
Title: Re: Did any of the Sahabah partake in the Battle of Karbala?
Post by: Pea Ce on September 01, 2020, 12:00:13 AM
Brother first he said: and use the same site (al-maktaba.org) and search the names of those sahaba in the references that I've provided.

I checked the same and couldn't find this statement (وكان ممّن حضر قتال الإمام عليه السلام بكربلاء،). I gave him the link of the book he is quoting(tahdhib al-kamaal) but i cant find this statement. So ask him to provide a scan pagefrom this book or online link(even though i already gave the link in last post).

Oh sorry, I see what you are saying. I am a bit confused on what to say to him, do you mind writing what I should send him?

Title: Re: Did any of the Sahabah partake in the Battle of Karbala?
Post by: Noor-us-Sunnah on September 01, 2020, 12:20:30 AM
Oh sorry, I see what you are saying. I am a bit confused on what to say to him, do you mind writing what I should send him?

I can't find the red part in the mentioned quote:

قال المزّي: «سكن الكوفة واستُعمل عليها»، وكان ممّن حضر قتال الإمام عليه السلام بكربلاء،

تهذيب الكمال 11 / 90 رقم 3731

So either provide a scan page from tahdhib al-kamaal or provide online link to tahdhib al-kamaal like you did before, which has the red color portion.
Title: Re: Did any of the Sahabah partake in the Battle of Karbala?
Post by: MuslimK on September 01, 2020, 01:27:19 AM

Quote
5.'Azarah ibn Qais al-Ahmasi:
He was one of the sahaba. [al-Isabah fi Tamyiz as-Sahaba vol.5 p.125 #6431]

Umar ibn Sa'd appointed 'Azarah ibn Qais al-Ahmasi as the head of the cavalry of his army.

[Ansab al-Ashraf vol.1 p.419]

He was one of those men who took the heads of the martyrs to Ibn Ziad

[Ansab al-Ashraf vol.1 p.424]


Quote
عزرة بن قيس الأحمسي
قال ابن حجر أبو الفضل العسقلاني الشافعي المتوفي: 852: عزرة بن قيس بن غزية الأحمسي البجلي ... وذكره بن سعد في الطبقة الأولى

الإصابة في تمييز الصحابة ج 5 ص 125 رقم 6431، نشر : دار الجيل – بيروت.

وجعل عمر بن سعد ... وعلى الخيل عزرة بن قيس الأحمسي

أنساب الأشراف ج 1 ص 419

واحتزت رؤوس القتلى فحمل إلى ابن زياد اثنان وسبعون رأساً مع شمر... وعزرة بن قيس الأحمسي من بجيلة، فقدموا بالرؤوس على ابن زياد

أنساب الأشراف ج 1 ص 424


Well, I just checked al-Isaba online and nowhere it mentions "He was one of the Sahaba". It doesn't mention anything about him being a Sahabi. Even the Arabic text he provided doesn't say that.

Title: Re: Did any of the Sahabah partake in the Battle of Karbala?
Post by: Pea Ce on September 01, 2020, 02:35:10 AM
Jazakallahu khair antuma,

I have raised both points with him. I'm very happy that I have your help. I will let you know his response, insha'Allah.
Title: Re: Did any of the Sahabah partake in the Battle of Karbala?
Post by: Pea Ce on September 01, 2020, 08:04:31 AM
I can't find the red part in the mentioned quote:

قال المزّي: «سكن الكوفة واستُعمل عليها»، وكان ممّن حضر قتال الإمام عليه السلام بكربلاء،

تهذيب الكمال 11 / 90 رقم 3731

So either provide a scan page from tahdhib al-kamaal or provide online link to tahdhib al-kamaal like you did before, which has the red color portion.

He gave this response:

Quote
here is an online version of Tahdhib al-Kamaal and you can see the biography of Abdur-Rahman ibn Abza. although some counted him a Tabi'i but it says he narrated from the prophet and Bukhari and Abu-Hatam and Dar-Qutni say he is a Sahaba. http://lib.eshia.ir/40342/16/501 http://lib.eshia.ir/40342/16/502

Also no reply to MuslimK's point in it.
Title: Re: Did any of the Sahabah partake in the Battle of Karbala?
Post by: Noor-us-Sunnah on September 01, 2020, 12:59:52 PM
He gave this response:
Bro you can check there is no trace for this portion.

وكان ممّن حضر قتال الإمام عليه السلام بكربلاء

That guy is a fraud.
Title: Re: Did any of the Sahabah partake in the Battle of Karbala?
Post by: Pea Ce on September 01, 2020, 04:34:51 PM
Bro you can check there is no trace for this portion.

وكان ممّن حضر قتال الإمام عليه السلام بكربلاء

That guy is a fraud.

I asked him again where that portion is, more clearly. I'm not sure he understood the first time.

He also replied this before my message:

Quote
it seems you're not familiar with the book at-Tabaqat al-Kubra (al-Kabir) by Ibn Sa'd. he has classified the Sahaba in the first 5 Tabaqa (classes) and he has classified 'Azarah ibn Qais al-Ahmasi in the first Tabaqa as Ibn Hajar mentioned. look at here for a bit of explanation: https://ar.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D9%83%D8%AA%D8%A7%D8%A8_%D8%A7%D9%84%D8%B7%D8%A8%D9%82%D8%A7%D8%AA_%D8%A7%D9%84%D9%83%D8%A8%D9%8A%D8%B1#%D8%A7%D9%84%D8%B7%D8%A8%D9%82%D8%A9_%D8%A7%D9%84%D8%A3%D9%88%D9%84%D9%89

And:


Quote
here is another mention of this Sahaba meeting and pledging allegiance to the prophet: http://lib.efatwa.ir/40237/1/261/%D8%B9%D8%B2%D8%B1%D8%A9_%D8%A8%D9%86_%D9%82%D9%8A%D8%B3_%D8%A7%D9%84%D8%A3%D8%AD%D9%85%D8%B3%D9%8A


Title: Re: Did any of the Sahabah partake in the Battle of Karbala?
Post by: Noor-us-Sunnah on September 01, 2020, 05:00:09 PM
I asked him again where that portion is, more clearly. I'm not sure he understood the first time.

He also replied this before my message:

And:
So he is dodging my question, which shows why he is a fraud.
Title: Re: Did any of the Sahabah partake in the Battle of Karbala?
Post by: Pea Ce on September 01, 2020, 05:21:34 PM
So he is dodging my question, which shows why he is a fraud.

He responded to it now:

Quote
you're right there was a problem in the reference. that part is not from Tahdhib al-Kamal rather from al-Akhbar al-Tiwal by Daynawari. you can read it here: https://al-maktaba.org/book/9760/299 however he has claimed he was there but didn't fight!!!
Title: Re: Did any of the Sahabah partake in the Battle of Karbala?
Post by: Noor-us-Sunnah on September 01, 2020, 06:54:21 PM
He responded to it now:

Did you See how he is mixing things?

And he says, he didn't fight. So what's the point now?

That's why i remind you that: one needs to establish his claims with reliable reports( if its about a Sahabi).
Title: Re: Did any of the Sahabah partake in the Battle of Karbala?
Post by: Pea Ce on September 01, 2020, 07:02:53 PM
Did you See how he is mixing things?

And he says, he didn't fight. So what's the point now?

That's why i remind you that: one needs to establish his claims with reliable reports( if its about a Sahabi).

Yes, brother, so I understand this about Abd al-Rahman ibn Abza al-Khuza’i:

1. We are not sure if he was a Sahabi or a Tabi'i.
2. Why mention his name in your list when he did not fight according to your source?

I should send him that, correct?
Title: Re: Did any of the Sahabah partake in the Battle of Karbala?
Post by: Noor-us-Sunnah on September 01, 2020, 07:07:21 PM
Yes, brother, so I understand this about Abd al-Rahman ibn Abza al-Khuza’i:

1. We are not sure if he was a Sahabi or a Tabi'i.
2. Why mention his name in your list when he did not fight according to your source?

I should send him that, correct?

Add that he needs to provide a reliable chain for reports about all the men he claims to be sahaba, that they fought Hussain(ra). Otherwise his research is useless and have no weight at all, esp after we pointed out the two blunders he made.
Title: Re: Did any of the Sahabah partake in the Battle of Karbala?
Post by: Pea Ce on September 01, 2020, 07:10:20 PM
Add that he needs to provide a reliable chain for reports about all the men he claims to be sahaba, that they fought Hussain(ra). Otherwise his research is useless and have no weight at all, esp after we pointed out the two blunders he made.

Done, I believe you are correct. He shouldn't post this list in the first place if he cannot provide proof.
Title: Re: Did any of the Sahabah partake in the Battle of Karbala?
Post by: Pea Ce on September 01, 2020, 07:15:42 PM
If we go back to the original list, are his references not reliable?

If I take for example:

Quote
(4) Abd-ar-Rahman ibn Abi Sabrah al-Ju'fi

He was one of the companions his original name was Uzayr and the prophet named him Abd-ar-Rahman. [al-Isti'ab vol.2 p.834 #1419]

He was appointed as commander by Umar ibn Sa'd over the tribe of Asad and they participated in the battle of Karbala fighting Imam al-Husain. [al-Kamil fit-Tarikh vol.3 p.417]

What do you think?
Title: Re: Did any of the Sahabah partake in the Battle of Karbala?
Post by: Noor-us-Sunnah on September 01, 2020, 08:24:27 PM
If we go back to the original list, are his references not reliable?

If I take for example:

What do you think?

I didnt check all, i came from down. The last two turned out to be deceitful.

Giving references is one thing, and giving references of reliable reports is a different thing.

Like the one you asked about , i found this report in Tareekh Tabari and its from Abu Mikhnaf a known liar.

http://www.marqoom.org/kotob/view/tarekhAlTabary/2882
Title: Re: Did any of the Sahabah partake in the Battle of Karbala?
Post by: Pea Ce on September 01, 2020, 08:26:42 PM
I didnt check all, i came from down. The last two turned out to be deceitful.

Giving references is one thing, and giving references of reliable reports is a different thing.

Like the one you asked about , i found this report in Tareekh Tabari and its from Abu Mikhnaf a known liar.

http://www.marqoom.org/kotob/view/tarekhAlTabary/2882

Okay, I will mention this as well. Just for clarification (because I do not know Arabic) which report was from Abu Mikhnaf?
Title: Re: Did any of the Sahabah partake in the Battle of Karbala?
Post by: Noor-us-Sunnah on September 01, 2020, 08:33:08 PM
Okay, I will mention this as well. Just for clarification (because I do not know Arabic) which report was from Abu Mikhnaf?

This one.

He was appointed as commander by Umar ibn Sa'd over the tribe of Asad and they participated in the battle of Karbala fighting Imam al-Husain.
Title: Re: Did any of the Sahabah partake in the Battle of Karbala?
Post by: Pea Ce on September 01, 2020, 09:20:52 PM
Okay, I have sent him that regarding Abu Mikhnaf. Meanwhile he said this in reply to my 2 points:

Quote
about Abdur-Rahman being a Sahabi I don't doubt because the most esteemed Muhaddith i.e. Bukhari has said he was a Sahabi so I easily disregard the words of others who doubted in this matter.

about him fighting against Imam Hussain (peace be upon him), if he didn't go to participate in the battle, for what other reason he went to that battle field in the middle of the desert? and what would you do if (god forbid) you were in his shoes considering they've caught you and wanted to kill you for fighting against Imam Hussain? naturally you'll deny fighting. right?
Title: Re: Did any of the Sahabah partake in the Battle of Karbala?
Post by: Noor-us-Sunnah on September 01, 2020, 09:40:49 PM
Okay, I have sent him that regarding Abu Mikhnaf. Meanwhile he said this in reply to my 2 points:

The answer is quite simple had he read the books of history. But the burden of proof is on him first to prove the reliability of the report he is using. He needs to provide a reliable chain of narrators for that, then we will answer.
Title: Re: Did any of the Sahabah partake in the Battle of Karbala?
Post by: Pea Ce on September 02, 2020, 06:49:10 PM
The answer is quite simple had he read the books of history. But the burden of proof is on him first to prove the reliability of the report he is using. He needs to provide a reliable chain of narrators for that, then we will answer.

Okay, I am not sure I am going to get a response from him, since he has been active but has not responded yet.

Are you aware of any confirmed Sahabah being in Umar ibn Saad's army yourself within a reliable report?
Title: Re: Did any of the Sahabah partake in the Battle of Karbala?
Post by: Noor-us-Sunnah on September 02, 2020, 08:48:04 PM
Okay, I am not sure I am going to get a response from him, since he has been active but has not responded yet.

Are you aware of any confirmed Sahabah being in Umar ibn Saad's army yourself within a reliable report?

I'm not.
Title: Re: Did any of the Sahabah partake in the Battle of Karbala?
Post by: Pea Ce on September 02, 2020, 09:01:05 PM
I'm not.

Okay, just wanted to give you and MuslimK thanks for your help. If I ever get a reply to that question, I'll let you know, insha'Allah. Jazakallahu khair.
Title: Re: Did any of the Sahabah partake in the Battle of Karbala?
Post by: Noor-us-Sunnah on September 02, 2020, 09:17:17 PM
Okay, just wanted to give you and MuslimK thanks for your help. If I ever get a reply to that question, I'll let you know, insha'Allah. Jazakallahu khair.

Wa iyyakum.
Title: Re: Did any of the Sahabah partake in the Battle of Karbala?
Post by: Pea Ce on September 02, 2020, 10:58:52 PM
He told me this:

Quote
it's a time consuming process to verify the chains of narrators for each of those reports and I need to dedicate some time for that some day and I'll let you know if I could verify the reliability of any of the reports, however I doubt if it have any impact on your opinion because even if I prove some of those historical reports to be authentic you will say OK it is just one single not very well known Sahaba and it has nothing to do with the rest of the sahaba.

So I replied with this:

Quote
If you don't provide a reliable chain for the reports about all the men you claim are sahaba, that they fought Husain(ra), then your research is useless and bears no weight.

I could equally say that the reports being inauthentic will not have any impact on your opinion. But I'm not the one who posted the list and made claims about men. At least we would be able to check them. Next time you should think about this before posting, because you would also find it objectionable if a Sunni had done something similar.
Title: Re: Did any of the Sahabah partake in the Battle of Karbala?
Post by: Noor-us-Sunnah on September 03, 2020, 01:50:04 AM
He told me this:

So I replied with this:

You may ask him to just post the chains, for all those reports.

And he should remove that Sahabi whom he included based on report of Abu mikhnaf.
Title: Re: Did any of the Sahabah partake in the Battle of Karbala?
Post by: Pea Ce on September 03, 2020, 06:39:20 AM
He sent me this:

Quote
Just FYI see what I found : Ibn Hajar says Shabath ibn Rib'i was a Sahaba "له إدراك" : https://al-maktaba.org/book/9767/1534 https://al-maktaba.org/book/9767/1535

I'm not sure what point he is making here, but I'll reiterate him to post the chains.
Title: Re: Did any of the Sahabah partake in the Battle of Karbala?
Post by: Pea Ce on September 03, 2020, 06:44:31 AM
You may ask him to just post the chains, for all those reports.

And he should remove that Sahabi whom he included based on report of Abu mikhnaf.

Are you talking about the 7th name (ibn Rib'i)? He removed that one already.
Title: Re: Did any of the Sahabah partake in the Battle of Karbala?
Post by: Noor-us-Sunnah on September 03, 2020, 12:15:04 PM
He sent me this:

I'm not sure what point he is making here, but I'll reiterate him to post the chains.

What he posted doesn't prove that Shabath bin Rab'ee is a Sahabi. That guy lacks evidence, that's why clutching at straws. Moreover, as i said, scholars declaring him weak narrator, was a clear evidence that he wasn't a Sahabi.

Quote
Are you talking about the 7th name (ibn Rib'i)? He removed that one already.
No, the fourth one.
Title: Re: Did any of the Sahabah partake in the Battle of Karbala?
Post by: Pea Ce on September 03, 2020, 07:42:53 PM
He replied:

Quote
About Shabath I posted the opinion of Ibn Hajar for you regarding him stating that he has met the prophet so he is a Sahaba. Don't you count Ibn Hajar a scholar in the field of Rijal or maybe you haven't checked the link? His grading is another subject that you may want to find out why a person who is a Sahaba by the testimony of Ibn Hajar is graded weak.

About Abu Mikhnaf he was a Shia historian and because of that he is accused of being a liar regarding the reports that Sunni scholars tend to turn a blind eye on them (i.e. the events that show there were serious conflicts between some of the Sahaba) as I quoted the words of al-Qazali about that at the bottom of my post. So even though you may count him a liar following the opinion of your scholars, he is neither weak nor a liar in the eyes of Shia.

I will send the chains as soon as possible. Be a bit patient I am occupied these days.

What should be our reply?
Title: Re: Did any of the Sahabah partake in the Battle of Karbala?
Post by: MuslimK on September 03, 2020, 11:30:36 PM
He sent me this:
Quote
Just FYI see what I found : Ibn Hajar says Shabath ibn Rib'i was a Sahaba "له إدراك" : https://al-maktaba.org/book/9767/1534 https://al-maktaba.org/book/9767/1535

I'm not sure what point he is making here, but I'll reiterate him to post the chains.


He replied:
Quote
About Shabath I posted the opinion of Ibn Hajar for you regarding him stating that he has met the prophet so he is a Sahaba. Don't you count Ibn Hajar a scholar in the field of Rijal or maybe you haven't checked the link? His grading is another subject that you may want to find out why a person who is a Sahaba by the testimony of Ibn Hajar is graded weak.

What should be our reply?

'lahu idrak' doesn't prove someone to be a companion. This term means that such person was the contemporary of the Prophet (saw), lived during his time but did not meet him (saw).

Here is another example in which Ibn Hajr uses the same term about another personality:

In the biography of Bajala bin Abda Al-Tameemi he said:
أدرك النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم ولم يره
Adraka Al-Nabi (salalahu alaihi wa salam) but did not see him.”
He titles this chapter: The names of those that adraka Al-Nabi (saw) but did not meet him.”

Brother Noor's post (https://forum.twelvershia.net/sahabah-ahlulbayt/did-any-of-the-sahabah-partake-in-the-battle-of-karbala/msg28587/#msg28587) proves he is considered to be a weak narrator - that alone is sufficient evidence that he wasn't a Sahabi since a Sahabi is never refereed to as weak but it seems this Shia propagandist is severely confused.
Title: Re: Did any of the Sahabah partake in the Battle of Karbala?
Post by: Pea Ce on September 03, 2020, 11:59:30 PM
That was good, MuslimK, thank you for that clarification. I'll await brother Noor's reply to the 2nd part of the paragraph about Abu Mikhnaf, since this guy says that Abu Mikhnaf is acceptable to them (Shia but not Sunnis) - I'm not sure that's true, but hopefully I'll be able to send something about that.
Title: Re: Did any of the Sahabah partake in the Battle of Karbala?
Post by: Pea Ce on September 04, 2020, 12:05:09 AM
Lol, it's funny because through Bing I searched: "Bajala bin Abda Al-Tameemi" and I came across another article on this website: https://www.twelvershia.net/2014/02/26/response-to-khalid-bin-walid-portrait-of-a-war-criminal/

Quote
We respond:
The term “idraak” does not mean met. It means that one was a contemporary of the Prophet (salalahu alaihi wa salam). This is better illustrated with Ibn Hajar’s biography of another Muslim, Bajala bin Abda Al-Tameemi, in which he said:
أدرك النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم ولم يره
“Adraka Al-Nabi (salalahu alaihi wa salam) but did not see him.”

I'm very glad that we have this resource available to tackle the propaganda.
Title: Re: Did any of the Sahabah partake in the Battle of Karbala?
Post by: Pea Ce on September 04, 2020, 02:39:56 PM
I'm not sure what point he is making here, but I'll reiterate him to post the chains.



What should be our reply?


'lahu idrak' doesn't prove someone to be a companion. This term means that such person was the contemporary of the Prophet (saw), lived during his time but did not meet him (saw).

Here is another example in which Ibn Hajr uses the same term about another personality:

In the biography of Bajala bin Abda Al-Tameemi he said:
أدرك النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم ولم يره
Adraka Al-Nabi (salalahu alaihi wa salam) but did not see him.”
He titles this chapter: The names of those that adraka Al-Nabi (saw) but did not meet him.”

Brother Noor's post (https://forum.twelvershia.net/sahabah-ahlulbayt/did-any-of-the-sahabah-partake-in-the-battle-of-karbala/msg28587/#msg28587) proves he is considered to be a weak narrator - that alone is sufficient evidence that he wasn't a Sahabi since a Sahabi is never refereed to as weak but it seems this Shia propagandist is severely confused.

He replied this:

Quote
Did Ibn Hajar classified Shabath in that particular chapter which is dedicated to those who was contemporary with the prophet but haven't seen/met him? If so your evidence is acceptable otherwise not.

It sounds like he's clutching at straws to be honest. What should I say?
Title: Re: Did any of the Sahabah partake in the Battle of Karbala?
Post by: Noor-us-Sunnah on September 04, 2020, 02:51:49 PM
He replied:

What should be our reply?

Guy is a fraud meaning a true Rafidi.  What he quoted from ibn hajar, simply means that Shabath found the time of Prophet(S).

The words "so he is a Sahaba" are his own words, Ibn hajar never said that, while on contrary ibn hajar believes that Shabath is NOT a sahabi. So this Rafidi fraud is attributing lies to Ibn hajar and making false claims since you dont know Arabic.

Copy this answer from me:
Quote
About Shabath I posted the opinion of Ibn Hajar for you regarding him stating that he has met the prophet so he is a Sahaba. Don't you count Ibn Hajar a scholar in the field of Rijal or maybe you haven't checked the link? His grading is another subject that you may want to find out why a person who is a Sahaba by the testimony of Ibn Hajar is graded weak.
No fraud Rafidi, Ibn Hajar didn't say so, rather he believed that Shabath isn't a Sahabi. The proof is right there from where you copy-pasted, but since you are a fraud you tried to conceal it.

Imam Ibn hajar has placed shabath in the third category. As can be seen in the link which you provided. For benefit of readers, here is the scan.  [ Attachment ]

And in the beginning of his book ibn hajar clarified that the ones from third category aren't considered Sahaba.  [ Attachment ]

So you lied that Ibn hajar considered him a Sahabi.


Quote
About Abu Mikhnaf he was a Shia historian and because of that he is accused of being a liar regarding the reports that Sunni scholars tend to turn a blind eye on them (i.e. the events that show there were serious conflicts between some of the Sahaba) as I quoted the words of al-Qazali about that at the bottom of my post. So even though you may count him a liar following the opinion of your scholars, he is neither weak nor a liar in the eyes of Shia.
Since you are a Jahil, you don't know that even Sahih Bukhari and Muslim have reports from Shia narrators, if you doubt make a research on it, to romove your ignorance. And these Shia narrators weren't called liars, why? Because they weren't liars. This evidence is sufficient to dismantle your silly theory that just because Abu mikhnaf was Shia he was called a liar. No, rather we call a person a liar, only when he is a liar, like you are a liar too who attributed lies to ibn hajar. So Im not surprised if you defend your liar ancestor Abu mikhnaf.

And yes we Sunnis will reject Abu Mikhnaf's reports because he was a liar, and if you act smart by saying he is a reliable person for Shias, then no problem, present the tawtheeq for the rest of narrators from whom Abu mikhaf narrated till the main narrator in chain, from Shia Scholars, you can't bring opinions of Sunnis Scholars for them, because for Sunnis Abu mikhnaf is liar, if you consider him reliable, then provide the tawtheeq for rest of narrators from Shia Scholars. After this condition you will realize that you are a loser either ways.

Title: Re: Did any of the Sahabah partake in the Battle of Karbala?
Post by: Pea Ce on September 04, 2020, 03:28:02 PM
Awesome, I have sent him it all with the images.
Title: Re: Did any of the Sahabah partake in the Battle of Karbala?
Post by: Pea Ce on September 05, 2020, 11:30:49 PM
His reply:

Quote
By the evidence you provided I understood that I was wrong regarding Shabath being a Sahaba. But what I cannot understand is that why this person that you've entered into our civil discussion to help you, uses filthy language and it is sad how easily he accuses me of being a liar and fraud while Allah is my witness that I wasn't aware of the classification that Ibn Hajar has mentioned in the beginning of his book and by no means I wasn't trying to deceive anybody. (sad face)

And I mention the fact that Abu-Mikhnaf is authentic in the eyes of Shia  to explain why I will not remove those reports that Abu-Mikhnaf is present in their chain of transmitters.
Title: Re: Did any of the Sahabah partake in the Battle of Karbala?
Post by: Noor-us-Sunnah on September 06, 2020, 01:08:45 AM
His reply:

Again, he didn't get what i said, because my previous response refutes this point of his. I'll explain him again:

Abu minkhnaf is a liar as per Sunnis, but reliable as per Shias. So if he wants to accuse a Sahabi based on a report of narrator who Shias deem reliable, then he should prove that the rest of the chain up until the main narrator has reliable narrators as per Shias, NOT Sunnis. He can't use grading of Shia Scholars of Abu Mikhnaf and use grading of Sunni Scholars for other narrators instead of using gradings of Shia Scholars for all narrators in the chains. Otherwise, it would be a fraud.

And rest assured he won't do that, why? Because those chains will turn out to have majhool(anonymous) narrators if the grading of Shia Scholars are applied to rest of the chain. Meanings it will be unacceptable evidence as per Shia standard too.
Title: Re: Did any of the Sahabah partake in the Battle of Karbala?
Post by: Pea Ce on September 06, 2020, 01:21:39 AM
Again, he didn't get what i said, because my previous response refutes this point of his. I'll explain him again:

Abu minkhnaf is a liar as per Sunnis, but reliable as per Shias. So if he wants to accuse a Sahabi based on a report of narrator who Shias deem reliable, then he should prove that the rest of the chain up until the main narrator has reliable narrators as per Shias, NOT Sunnis. He can't use grading of Shia Scholars of Abu Mikhnaf and use grading of Sunni Scholars for other narrators instead of using gradings of Shia Scholars for all narrators in the chains. Otherwise, it would be a fraud.

And rest assured he won't do that, why? Because those chains will turn out to have majhool(anonymous) narrators if the grading of Shia Scholars are applied to rest of the chain. Meanings it will be unacceptable evidence as per Shia standard too.

Yeah, I understand what you have said here and I can't see him not understanding this point as you have made it quite clear. I've sent him this and bolded the second paragraph and told him to read it all. Thanks brother.
Title: Re: Did any of the Sahabah partake in the Battle of Karbala?
Post by: Pea Ce on September 07, 2020, 04:31:10 PM
Yeah, I understand what you have said here and I can't see him not understanding this point as you have made it quite clear. I've sent him this and bolded the second paragraph and told him to read it all. Thanks brother.

I have had no response from him yet but he has shown activity.
Title: Re: Did any of the Sahabah partake in the Battle of Karbala?
Post by: Pea Ce on September 07, 2020, 05:04:30 PM
If I don't get a reply from him maybe I should create my own post. I could call it: "Dissecting the claims of [his username] against some of the Sahaba," and link to this post. What do you think?
Title: Re: Did any of the Sahabah partake in the Battle of Karbala?
Post by: Noor-us-Sunnah on September 07, 2020, 06:37:50 PM
If I don't get a reply from him maybe I should create my own post. I could call it: "Dissecting the claims of [his username] against some of the Sahaba," and link to this post. What do you think?
As you wish brother.
Title: Re: Did any of the Sahabah partake in the Battle of Karbala?
Post by: Pea Ce on September 07, 2020, 09:33:27 PM
As you wish brother.

Okay, he replied but he went off topic, not addressing how this affects his allegations.

Quote
Unfortunately the details of the battle of Karbala and its causes and consequences are not covered in the hadith books where the Isnad is important, rather (some of them) are mentioned in the history books where usually the Isnad is not important. So it's difficult to discuss about that this way. But I am going to take another approach to this topic:

One of the reasons that Imam Husain refused to pay allegiance to Yazid was that he was seeing Yazid an illegitimate caliph as well as his father Muawiya who appointed him (i.e. Yazid) as his successor. After all Muawiya was who revolted against Imam Ali the rightly guided caliph in the opinion of both Sunni and Shia and started the battle of Saffain in which many Muslims got killed. Now to know whether Imam Ali and Imam Husain were righteous in the eyes of Allah and his apostle or Muawiya and Amr ibn 'Aas (two of the Sahaba) see the following authentic narrations:

https://al-maktaba.org/book/33757/4996 https://al-maktaba.org/book/2266/6107 https://al-maktaba.org/book/2266/6122 https://al-maktaba.org/book/2266/6109
Title: Re: Did any of the Sahabah partake in the Battle of Karbala?
Post by: Noor-us-Sunnah on September 08, 2020, 02:34:12 AM
the history books where usually the Isnad is not important. So it's difficult to discuss about that this way

He is wrong. Isnad is equally important in history books, because history book contains all sorts of reports, fabricated to reliable. And we can only verify them by analysing their chains.

Ibn Katheer said:

In these volumes, he [Tabari] reported the various narrations as they were transmitted and by whom. His discussion is a mixed bag of valuable and worthless, sound and unsound information. This is in keeping with the custom of many Hadith scholars who merely report the information they have on a subject and make no distinction between what is sound and what is weak. (Ibn Katheer, al-Bidayah wa al-Nihayah, Vol.5, p.208)
Title: Re: Did any of the Sahabah partake in the Battle of Karbala?
Post by: Pea Ce on September 08, 2020, 04:39:40 PM
He is wrong. Isnad is equally important in history books, because history book contains all sorts of reports, fabricated to reliable. And we can only verify them by analysing their chains.

Ibn Katheer said:

In these volumes, he [Tabari] reported the various narrations as they were transmitted and by whom. His discussion is a mixed bag of valuable and worthless, sound and unsound information. This is in keeping with the custom of many Hadith scholars who merely report the information they have on a subject and make no distinction between what is sound and what is weak. (Ibn Katheer, al-Bidayah wa al-Nihayah, Vol.5, p.208)

His response:

Quote
I agree with him. The Isnad is always important except for when there is a Tawatur regarding a matter. My statement made him misunderstand me. I meant many historians like Tahari or Biladuri have gathered any report (whether Mursal or Musnad and whether weak or authentic) regarding a historical event AS IF THE ISNAD IS NOT IMPORTANT. But maybe one can justify them by saying they wanted to gather all sorts of reports so that one may understand Tawatur from them in a subject.
Title: Re: Did any of the Sahabah partake in the Battle of Karbala?
Post by: Noor-us-Sunnah on September 08, 2020, 06:24:10 PM
I agree with him. The Isnad is always important except for when there is a Tawatur regarding a matter. My statement made him misunderstand me. I meant many historians like Tahari or Biladuri have gathered any report (whether Mursal or Musnad and whether weak or authentic) regarding a historical event AS IF THE ISNAD IS NOT IMPORTANT. But maybe one can justify them by saying they wanted to gather all sorts of reports so that one may understand Tawatur from them in a subject.

As said before that guy is a fraud and a jahil.

He has no clue what tawattur means. I bet he explain what tawattur means and then relate it with his claim to allege a particular sahabi, claiming there is tawattur that he participated. He cannot do that.

There is no such tawattur that if ten historians have mentioned a particular thing it becomes a fact. Otherwise he'll have to accept the role of Abdullah ibn Saba in matryrdom of Uthman(ra), since several historians mentioned it, thus it becomes mutawattir due his misunderstanding.
Title: Re: Did any of the Sahabah partake in the Battle of Karbala?
Post by: Pea Ce on September 08, 2020, 10:31:16 PM
As said before that guy is a fraud and a jahil.

He has no clue what tawattur means. I bet he explain what tawattur means and then relate it with his claim to allege a particular sahabi, claiming there is tawattur that he participated. He cannot do that.

There is no such tawattur that if ten historians have mentioned a particular thing it becomes a fact. Otherwise he'll have to accept the role of Abdullah ibn Saba in matryrdom of Uthman(ra), since several historians mentioned it, thus it becomes mutawattir due his misunderstanding.

He responded:

Quote
Once again he accuses me of ignorance and saying what I haven't said!!!

I know exactly what Tawatur is and I never claimed that there is Tawatur regarding the participation of Sahaba in killing of Imam Husain.

Up to now I couldn't provide authentic narrations regarding the participation of Sahaba in killing of Imam Husain but what do you want to do with the existence of Tawatur regarding the participation of Sahaba in killing of Ammar ibn Yasir.

{And the story of Abdullah ibn Saba' is originally mentioned only in the book Tarikh al-Tabari and all the other historians have taken it from him and even all the chains of all the reports of Tarikh al-Tabari regarding Ibn Saba' goes back to a famous liar called Saif ibn Umar. So not only there is no Tawatur here but there is not even one single authentic report regarding him.}

If he (i.e. the scholar who helps you) is really knowledgeable and honest why doesn't he answer this:

the holy prophet has called the party of Muawiya and Amr ibn al-'Aas (two of the Sahaba) the rebellious party ("الفئة الباغية") and they were the Imams of this party that according to the hadith were inviting to the hell fire. They revolted against the legitimate caliph Ali ibn abi Talib and killed the great sahaba Ammar ibn Yasir (who the prophet said his killer will be in the hell fire) and even after his assasination Muawiya never regretted that and later he prepared the grounds for the tyranny of his son Yazid who left no option for Imam Husain other than paying allegiance to him or dying and after the massacre of Karbala he (i.e. Yazid) caused the massacre of Harrah in Medina in which many of the Sahaba got killed and many Muslim women were raped and then his army attacked the Mecca and resulted in burning down the Ka'ba.

There is no doubt that Yazid wasn't qualified for leading the Ummah as we can see that Abd-ar-Rahman the son of Abu-Bakr objected the assignment of Yazid as Muawiya's successor (see https://al-maktaba.org/book/33757/8001). Yet Muawiya did that. So by assigning an unqualified person as his successor, Muawiya is responsible for and co-respondant in all the crimes that Yazid committed during his reign (including the killing of Imam Husain).

I put a part of a sentence in bold because he even has now admitted it himself yet he hasn't taken down his post. Let me know what you think brother. I think he should first concede the point before he moves onto something else which he has done but you answer however you like brother. Jazakallahu khair.
Title: Re: Did any of the Sahabah partake in the Battle of Karbala?
Post by: MuslimK on September 08, 2020, 11:10:30 PM
Ok! so he admits his list was made up of false information and now jumping to other topics.
Title: Re: Did any of the Sahabah partake in the Battle of Karbala?
Post by: Noor-us-Sunnah on September 09, 2020, 03:30:41 PM
He responded:

I put a part of a sentence in bold because he even has now admitted it himself yet he hasn't taken down his post. Let me know what you think brother. I think he should first concede the point before he moves onto something else which he has done but you answer however you like brother. Jazakallahu khair.

I hope this issue is resolved for you akhee:

Quote
Did any of the Sahabah partake in the Battle of Karbala?
If so, then end of the case.

Wa iyyakum.
Title: Re: Did any of the Sahabah partake in the Battle of Karbala?
Post by: Pea Ce on September 09, 2020, 07:08:44 PM
I hope this issue is resolved for you akhee:
If so, then end of the case.

Wa iyyakum.

Yes.

It appears to me that I have my answer.

Q: Imam Husain (peace be upon him) vs some of the Sahaba?
A: "Up to now I couldn't provide authentic narrations regarding the participation of Sahaba in killing of Imam Husain"

Big thanks for the help, I could have left his post alone and others would not know if it was true or not (Shias would probably believe it without second thought). I'm glad I went to investigate this and now we have an answer.
Title: Re: Did any of the Sahabah partake in the Battle of Karbala?
Post by: Pea Ce on September 10, 2020, 12:35:03 AM
Okay, so he replied again and I just want help formulating a final response:

Quote
nowhere in my post I claimed that these reports are necessarily authentic and if your logic regarding removing the unauthentic narrations /reports (regarding our topic) is true, then they should be removed from those history books at the first place. Yet I will add a notification to my post that the authenticity of the reports should be verified.

Q: Imam Husain (peace be upon him) vs some of the Sahaba? This discussion was about this topic

In my last message I provided authentic narrations about Imam Husain vs one of the Sahaba (Muawiya)

And I proved that by appointing the unqualified Yazid for leading the Ummah, Muawiya is responsible for the killing of Imam Husain and is as guilty as those who participated in the battle of Karbala. Therefore it is the same topic and the discussion is not over yet.
Title: Re: Did any of the Sahabah partake in the Battle of Karbala?
Post by: Noor-us-Sunnah on September 10, 2020, 01:31:30 AM
Okay, so he replied again and I just want help formulating a final response:

Since that Rafidi has lost the argument, he is making silly arguments for damage control.

A Khariji could use same stupid logic as this Rafidi and blame the responsibility on Hasan(RA) for killing of Hussain(RA), He could say that because Hassan(RA) gave Caliphate to Mu'awiyah(RA) , he(ra) was able to make Yazeed as Caliph and all of this occurred.

So you see, there is no end to the stupidity of people, they can run the horses of their stupidity to any extent.

Infact Mu’awiya(RA) is absolutely free from the stupid allegation he made, if we read the report mentioned in Shia and Sunni books.

Hadrat Mu’âwiya’s last advice to his son Yazîd as he was dying, as follows:
و امـّا الحسين فـقـد عـرفـت حظّه مـن رسول الله و هو مـن لحم رسول اللّه و دمـه و قـد عـلمـت لا مـحالة انّ اءهل العراق سيخرجونه اليهم ثمّ يخذلونه و يضيّعـونه ، فـان ظفـرت به فـاعـرف حقـّه و مـنزلة مـن رسول اللّه و لا تـواءخـذه بفـعـله ، و مـع ذلك فـانّ لنا به خلطة و رحما و ايّاك ان تناله بسوء او يرى منك مكروها.
– بحار ج 44 / ص 311-. حيات الامـام الحسين ج 2، ص 236. كامل ابن اثير ج 4، ص 6. طبرى ج 7، ص 196 و 217. ينابيع الموده ص 333.
“You know what relation Imâm Husayn ‘radiy-Allâhu ’anh’ is to the Messenger of Allah. He is a part from the beloved Prophet’s blessed body. He is an offspring from the flesh and blood of that most honourable person. I understand that the inhabitants of Iraq invite him to go there and be with them. But they will not help him; they will leave him alone. If he should fall into your hands, behave in appreciation of his value! Remember the closeness and affection of the Messenger of Allah ‘sall-Allâhu ’alaihi wa sallam’ to him! Do not get back at him for his behaviour! Mind you don’t break the substantial ties I have established between him and us! Be extra careful lest you should hurt or offend him!”
[Bihar al-Anwar vol 44, page 311, etc]
Title: Re: Did any of the Sahabah partake in the Battle of Karbala?
Post by: Pea Ce on September 10, 2020, 11:15:38 PM
Since that Rafidi has lost the argument, he is making silly arguments for damage control.

A Khariji could use same stupid logic as this Rafidi and blame the responsibility on Hasan(RA) for killing of Hussain(RA), He could say that because Hassan(RA) gave Caliphate to Mu'awiyah(RA) , he(ra) was able to make Yazeed as Caliph and all of this occurred.

So you see, there is no end to the stupidity of people, they can run the horses of their stupidity to any extent.

Infact Mu’awiya(RA) is absolutely free from the stupid allegation he made, if we read the report mentioned in Shia and Sunni books.

Hadrat Mu’âwiya’s last advice to his son Yazîd as he was dying, as follows:
و امـّا الحسين فـقـد عـرفـت حظّه مـن رسول الله و هو مـن لحم رسول اللّه و دمـه و قـد عـلمـت لا مـحالة انّ اءهل العراق سيخرجونه اليهم ثمّ يخذلونه و يضيّعـونه ، فـان ظفـرت به فـاعـرف حقـّه و مـنزلة مـن رسول اللّه و لا تـواءخـذه بفـعـله ، و مـع ذلك فـانّ لنا به خلطة و رحما و ايّاك ان تناله بسوء او يرى منك مكروها.
– بحار ج 44 / ص 311-. حيات الامـام الحسين ج 2، ص 236. كامل ابن اثير ج 4، ص 6. طبرى ج 7، ص 196 و 217. ينابيع الموده ص 333.
“You know what relation Imâm Husayn ‘radiy-Allâhu ’anh’ is to the Messenger of Allah. He is a part from the beloved Prophet’s blessed body. He is an offspring from the flesh and blood of that most honourable person. I understand that the inhabitants of Iraq invite him to go there and be with them. But they will not help him; they will leave him alone. If he should fall into your hands, behave in appreciation of his value! Remember the closeness and affection of the Messenger of Allah ‘sall-Allâhu ’alaihi wa sallam’ to him! Do not get back at him for his behaviour! Mind you don’t break the substantial ties I have established between him and us! Be extra careful lest you should hurt or offend him!”
[Bihar al-Anwar vol 44, page 311, etc]

He replied:

Tell him:

Now let's see who is making silly arguments to escape from losing.

A Khariji could use same stupid logic as this Rafidi and blame the responsibility on Hasan(RA) for killing of Hussain(RA), He could say that because Hassan(RA) gave Caliphate to Mu'awiyah(RA)

False equivalent!!! If you are not aware of the history go and educate yourself first and if you are aware don't try to cover up the truth regarding the situation that led to the peace treaty between Imam Hasan and Muawiya. Imam Hasan had not enough true supporters to fight Muawiya, therefore to stop bloodshed between Muslims he accepted the peace treaty with some conditions that one of them was this: "Muawiya must not pass the caliphate to Yazid" but Muawiya violated this condition and appointed Yazid as his successor.

Hadrat Mu’âwiya’s last advice to his son Yazîd as he was dying, as follows

Alhamdulillah that Allah refuted you with your own words. The only Sunni source that has reported this last advice of Muawiya with a Isnad (chain of transmitters) is the book of Tabari and when we look it up we see Abu-Mikhnaf is in the chain who is a famous liar according to you. And if you announce him authentic to prove this report then you lose again because of those reports that I cited and Abu-Mikhnaf was in their chains.

Setting aside the problem with its Isnad, if Muawiya had really said that and he were honest in his words ("Remember the closeness and affection of the Messenger of Allah to him") why didn't he himself observe the closeness and affection of the prophet to Imam Ali and Imam Hasan at their times?
Title: Re: Did any of the Sahabah partake in the Battle of Karbala?
Post by: Noor-us-Sunnah on September 11, 2020, 01:40:58 AM
Imam Hasan had not enough true supporters to fight Muawiya,
How many true supporters did Hassan(RA) have? Is he trying to say that, those with whom Hussain(RA) travelled to Karbala didn't exist or weren't supporters of Hassan(Ra).

"Muawiya must not pass the caliphate to Yazid" but Muawiya violated this condition and appointed Yazid as his successor.
I'm not aware of any reliable report to ascertain this point, what Im aware of is that it comes via narrator who was a liar as per Sunnis.

Moreover, why would a khariji care for that, he would argue at first place that Hassan(RA) was wrong and it was his mistake to trust Mu'awiya(RA) and Handover Caliphate to him. As this is how khawarij reacted after Hassan(ra) gave caliphate to Muawiya(RA).



Alhamdulillah that Allah refuted you with your own words. The only Sunni source that has reported this last advice of Muawiya with a Isnad (chain of transmitters) is the book of Tabari and when we look it up we see Abu-Mikhnaf is in the chain who is a famous liar according to you. And if you announce him authentic to prove this report then you lose again because of those reports that I cited and Abu-Mikhnaf was in their chains.

Lol, i pity at IQ of this Desperate loser.

What this exposes is his hypocrisy. Why?

1. He is the one who claimed he considers Abu mikhnaf as reliable. And accepts his reports.

2. It's him who made the stupid allegation on Muawiya(ra) , not me, even if i reject that report as unreliable, it doesn't effect me.

So this report actually exposed his hypocrisy and bias.


why didn't he himself observe the closeness and affection of the prophet to Imam Ali and Imam Hasan at their times?
He did. Even if you disagree, consider it as something he regrets and while he was near his death he advised his son. Nevertheless not to forget that all of this doesn't prove Rafidi's  stupid allegation on Mu’awiyah(ra). Him making that allegation proves that he is a fool.
Title: Re: Did any of the Sahabah partake in the Battle of Karbala?
Post by: Pea Ce on September 12, 2020, 12:48:56 AM
He gave me another reply, it's another lengthy one. I'm happy with the answers you've given and I'm not sure what benefit there is in continuing but if you want to read it then I'll post it, but I don't want to waste your time further. You've already done a lot. Jazakallahu khair.
Title: Re: Did any of the Sahabah partake in the Battle of Karbala?
Post by: Noor-us-Sunnah on September 12, 2020, 06:17:18 PM
He gave me another reply, it's another lengthy one. I'm happy with the answers you've given and I'm not sure what benefit there is in continuing but if you want to read it then I'll post it, but I don't want to waste your time further. You've already done a lot. Jazakallahu khair.

 Wa iyyakum.