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Did Uthman(r.a) killed because of commited sin?

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Ahlus_sunnah

Did Uthman(r.a) killed because of commited sin?
« on: April 12, 2015, 05:10:09 PM »
أخبرني هلال بن العلاء بن هلال قال حدثنا حسين قال حدثنا زهير عن أبي إسحاق عن العلاء بن عرار قال سألت عبد الله بن عمر قلت ألا تحدثني عن علي وعثمان قال أما علي فهذا بيته من بيت رسول الله ولا أحدثك عنه بغيره وأما عثمان فإنه أذنب يوم أحد ذنبا عظيما فعفى الله عنه وأذنب فيكم ذنبا صغيرا فقتلتموه

Hilal ibn al-Ala ibn Hilli narrated from Husayn (ibn Ayyash) from Zuhayr (ibn Muawiya) from Abu Isaac that al-Ala ibn Erar said:
Once I asked Abdullah ibn Umar ‘Would you talk to me about Ali and Uthman?’  He said ‘As for Ali, this is his house (close position) to the messenger of Allah (as) and I do not need to talk to you about anything else.  But as for Uthman, on the Day of Uhud, he committed a great sin and Allah forgave him and then he committed among you a small sin and you killed him.



أخبرنا أحمد بن سليمان الرهاوي قال حدثنا عبيد الله قال حدثنا إسرائيل عن أبي إسحاق عن العلاء بن عرار قال سالت ابن عمر وهو في مسجد رسول الله عن علي وعثمان فقال أما علي فلا تسألني عنه وانظر إلى منزله من رسول الله ليس في المسجد بيت غير بيته وأما عثمان فإنه أذنب ذنبا عظيما يوم التقى الجمعان فعفى الله عنه وغفر له وأذنب فيكم ذنبا دون ذلك فقتلتموه


Ahmed ibn Sulayman (ar-Rahawi) narrated from Ubaydullah (ibn Musa) from Israel from Abu Isaaq al-Ala ibn Erar said:
“Once I asked ibn Umar, while he was in the Mosque of the messenger of Allah (as) about Ali and Uthman, and he said, ‘As for Ali, do not ask me about him.  You just see his close house to the messenger of Allah (as).  There is house in the mosque except his house.  But as for Uthman, he committed a great  when he ran away on the day when the two groups (Muslims and polytheists) me (in war) and Allah pardoned him, and then, he committed among you a sin less than that, and you killed him”

إسناده صحيح
isnad sahih

Nasai, “KHasais”, page 89-90, hadeeth 100-101


did Uthman ra killed because of he commited sin?




Hani

Re: Did Uthman(r.a) killed because of commited sin?
« Reply #1 on: April 12, 2015, 05:46:54 PM »
Ibn `Umar is saying that `Uthman was accused of certain sins when running the government, such as favoring his relatives in terms of positions and rewards. This is a small sin not worth mentioning according to ibn `Umar, yet those hooligans killed him because of it as they were deprived of wisdom and mercy. As for the battle of Uhud when `Uthman has turned back, after the pagans surrounded the Muslims and after it was rumored that Rasul-Allah (saw) was killed, Allah said regarding them:

{Indeed, those of you who turned back on the day the two armies met, it was Satan who caused them to slip because of some [blame] they had earned. But Allah has already forgiven them. Indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Forbearing.} [3:155]

A person would have to be really low to keep following people's slips even after Allah almighty had openly forgiven them in the Qur'an. Allah would not forgive them unless he knew what was in their hearts from sincere repentance and love for this message and religion.
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

Ahlus_sunnah

Re: Did Uthman(r.a) killed because of commited sin?
« Reply #2 on: April 12, 2015, 05:51:34 PM »
shia site writes also:

A number of key points can be gauged from this tradition:

1. Contrary to the traditional line pedalled by the advocates of the Uthman who insist that Uthman was killed from outside Egyptians who entered Madina, lay siege topalaceofUthmanand ultimately entered therein and killed for no wrong, Ibn Umar provides a very different view.  Ibn Umar rather than blame foreign elements made it clear that those that killed Uthman were those that lived close to him, they were his fellow city dwellers for he used the term, “he committed “fee kum” and you killed him – the term “fee kum” (among you)  clearly alludes to the fact that among you, as people in the midst of Uthman, that lived amongst him as in Madinans.  He did not “he committed amongst others a small sin”, he pinpointed it closer with the term among you clearly evidencing that those that deemed Uthman a sinner and killed him for this transgression were those linked near to him.

2. Unlike the ad nausea chant that Uthman was innocent of all wrong doing and his blood was shed for no reason whatsoever, Ibn Umar makes it clear “he committed among you a small sin and you killed him”.  Note he in no way suggests that it was a baseless false allegation, rather he acknowledged that Uthman was killed for his committing a sin.

3. A martyr is an individual that dies on the path of Allah (swt), upholding his deen yet Ibn Umar was making it clear that Uthman was killed on account if his committing a sin (albeit a small one).  Whilst the narration fails to shed light on the precise nature of this sin, the fact is it was serious enough to cause the ire of the local residents, one so severe that they deemed it grounds to kill Uthman.  An individual partaking in sinful activities is aloof from the blessings of Allah (swt), if he is killed in a sinful state he cannot be deemed to have died a martyr, rather his death was that of a sinner.

 

Hani

Re: Did Uthman(r.a) killed because of commited sin?
« Reply #3 on: April 12, 2015, 07:03:43 PM »
I reply to the "key points".

1- This point is not valid, because ibn `Umar when he said "`Uthman committed among you a small sin", the word "you" refers to the Muslims in general, not just Madanis, so we cannot conclude from this that it means only Madanis killed him. This is also clear because ibn `Umar was talking with al-`Ala' bin `Arrar who is a `Iraqi man from Koufah.

2- Committing a small sin does not necessitate execution and death, meaning the biggest sin was committed by his killers. I add, the Khawarij who killed him used these small mistakes he did to get rid of him out of jealousy of him and because they wished to get a bigger piece of the cake. (This is authentically reported by `Ali)

3- Again you're making things up that were never mentioned by ibn `Umar, you're assuming that the killing is justified, the entire point ibn `Umar was trying to make was that the murder wasn't justified and he is reproaching the people responsible for it by saying this.
« Last Edit: April 12, 2015, 07:14:39 PM by Hani »
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

Hani

عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

MuslimK

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Re: Did Uthman(r.a) killed because of commited sin?
« Reply #5 on: April 12, 2015, 07:50:07 PM »
Rawafid and Khawarij have the same takfiri mentality except that one is worse than the other.
در خلافت میل نیست ای بی‌خبر
میل کی آید ز بوبکر و عمر
میل اگر بودی در آن دو مقتدا
هر دو کردندی پسر را پیشوا

عطار نِیشابوری

www.Nahjul-Balagha.net | www.TwelverShia.net | www.ghadirkhumm.com

Aba AbdAllah

Re: Did Uthman(r.a) killed because of commited sin?
« Reply #6 on: April 12, 2015, 11:09:58 PM »
حَدَّثَنَا إِبْرَاهِيمُ بْنُ سَعِيدٍ الْجَوْهَرِيُّ، حَدَّثَنَا شَاذَانُ الأَسْوَدُ بْنُ عَامِرٍ، عَنْ سِنَانِ بْنِ هَارُونَ الْبُرْجُمِيِّ، عَنْ كُلَيْبِ بْنِ وَائِلٍ، عَنِ ابْنِ عُمَرَ، قَالَ ذَكَرَ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم فِتْنَةً فَقَالَ ‏ "‏ يُقْتَلُ فِيهَا هَذَا مَظْلُومًا ‏"‏ ‏.‏ لِعُثْمَانَ ‏.‏.‏

Narrated Ibn 'Umar: that the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) mentioned the Fitnah and said: "This one will be wrongfully killed during it," about 'Uthman bin 'Affan [may Allah be pleased with him].



Aba AbdAllah

Re: Did Uthman(r.a) killed because of commited sin?
« Reply #7 on: April 12, 2015, 11:16:22 PM »
حَدَّثَنَا مُسَدَّدٌ، حَدَّثَنَا يَحْيَى، عَنْ عُثْمَانَ بْنِ غِيَاثٍ، حَدَّثَنَا أَبُو عُثْمَانَ، عَنْ أَبِي مُوسَى، أَنَّهُ كَانَ مَعَ النَّبِيِّ صلى الله عليه وسلم فِي حَائِطٍ مِنْ حِيطَانِ الْمَدِينَةِ، وَفِي يَدِ النَّبِيِّ صلى الله عليه وسلم عُودٌ يَضْرِبُ بِهِ بَيْنَ الْمَاءِ وَالطِّينِ، فَجَاءَ رَجُلٌ يَسْتَفْتِحُ، فَقَالَ النَّبِيُّ صلى الله عليه وسلم ‏"‏ افْتَحْ لَهُ وَبَشِّرْهُ بِالْجَنَّةِ ‏"‏‏.‏ فَذَهَبْتُ فَإِذَا أَبُو بَكْرٍ، فَفَتَحْتُ لَهُ وَبَشَّرْتُهُ بِالْجَنَّةِ، ثُمَّ اسْتَفْتَحَ رَجُلٌ آخَرُ فَقَالَ ‏"‏ افْتَحْ لَهُ وَبَشِّرْهُ بِالْجَنَّةِ ‏"‏‏.‏ فَإِذَا عُمَرُ، فَفَتَحْتُ لَهُ وَبَشَّرْتُهُ بِالْجَنَّةِ، ثُمَّ اسْتَفْتَحَ رَجُلٌ آخَرُ، وَكَانَ مُتَّكِئًا فَجَلَسَ فَقَالَ ‏"‏ افْتَحْ ‏{‏لَهُ‏}‏ وَبَشِّرْهُ بِالْجَنَّةِ، عَلَى بَلْوَى تُصِيبُهُ أَوْ تَكُونُ ‏"‏‏.‏ فَذَهَبْتُ فَإِذَا عُثْمَانُ، فَفَتَحْتُ لَهُ، وَبَشَّرْتُهُ بِالْجَنَّةِ، فَأَخْبَرْتُهُ بِالَّذِي قَالَ‏.‏ قَالَ اللَّهُ الْمُسْتَعَانُ‏.

Narrated Abu Musa:

That he was in the company of the Prophet (ﷺ) in one of the gardens of Medina and in the hand of the Prophet there was a stick, and he was striking (slowly) the water and the mud with it. A man came (at the gate of the garden) and asked permission to enter. The Prophet (ﷺ) said, "Open the gate for him and give him the glad tidings of entering Paradise. "I went, and behold! It was Abu Bakr. So I opened the gate for him and informed him of the glad tidings of entering Paradise. Then another man came and asked permission to enter. The Prophet (ﷺ) said, "Open the gate for him and give him the glad tidings of entering Paradise." Behold! It was `Umar. So I opened the gate for him and gave him the glad tidings of entering Paradise. Then another man came and asked permission to enter. The Prophet (ﷺ) was sitting in a leaning posture, so he sat up and said, "Open the gate for him and give him the glad tidings of entering Paradise with a calamity which will befall him or which will take place." I went, and behold ! It was `Uthman. So I opened the gate for him and gave him the glad tidings of entering Paradise and also informed him of what the Prophet (ﷺ) had said (about a calamity). `Uthman said, "Allah Alone Whose Help I seek (against that calamity).

Hani

Re: Did Uthman(r.a) killed because of commited sin?
« Reply #8 on: April 13, 2015, 12:05:20 AM »
^ If you're writing this, then you can't be an Rafidi, a Zaydi or a Khariji. So why's your religion on "Other"

: p
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

Optimus Prime

Re: Did Uthman(r.a) killed because of commited sin?
« Reply #9 on: April 13, 2015, 01:13:39 AM »
حَدَّثَنَا إِبْرَاهِيمُ بْنُ سَعِيدٍ الْجَوْهَرِيُّ، حَدَّثَنَا شَاذَانُ الأَسْوَدُ بْنُ عَامِرٍ، عَنْ سِنَانِ بْنِ هَارُونَ الْبُرْجُمِيِّ، عَنْ كُلَيْبِ بْنِ وَائِلٍ، عَنِ ابْنِ عُمَرَ، قَالَ ذَكَرَ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم فِتْنَةً فَقَالَ ‏ "‏ يُقْتَلُ فِيهَا هَذَا مَظْلُومًا ‏"‏ ‏.‏ لِعُثْمَانَ ‏.‏.‏

Narrated Ibn 'Umar: that the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) mentioned the Fitnah and said: "This one will be wrongfully killed during it," about 'Uthman bin 'Affan [may Allah be pleased with him].




What is the source for this narration, and your second one, akhi?

Please share.

Furkan

Re: Did Uthman(r.a) killed because of commited sin?
« Reply #10 on: April 13, 2015, 01:15:02 AM »
Why not a zaydi?
Before Qazî Mihemed, President of the first kurdish Republic Mahabad was hanged the iranian judge asked:

“last words?”

Qazî: “I thank Allah: even in death he put my shoes above your heads”

Hani

Re: Did Uthman(r.a) killed because of commited sin?
« Reply #11 on: April 13, 2015, 01:22:11 AM »
Zaydiyyah although they respect the Sahabah generally, yet they will never bring a narration in praise of anyone from banu Umayyah.
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

sameer

Re: Did Uthman(r.a) killed because of commited sin?
« Reply #12 on: April 13, 2015, 10:04:09 PM »
حَدَّثَنَا إِبْرَاهِيمُ بْنُ سَعِيدٍ الْجَوْهَرِيُّ، حَدَّثَنَا شَاذَانُ الأَسْوَدُ بْنُ عَامِرٍ، عَنْ سِنَانِ بْنِ هَارُونَ الْبُرْجُمِيِّ، عَنْ كُلَيْبِ بْنِ وَائِلٍ، عَنِ ابْنِ عُمَرَ، قَالَ ذَكَرَ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم فِتْنَةً فَقَالَ ‏ "‏ يُقْتَلُ فِيهَا هَذَا مَظْلُومًا ‏"‏ ‏.‏ لِعُثْمَانَ ‏.‏.‏

Narrated Ibn 'Umar: that the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) mentioned the Fitnah and said: "This one will be wrongfully killed during it," about 'Uthman bin 'Affan [may Allah be pleased with him].




What is the source for this narration, and your second one, akhi?

Please share.

http://library.islamweb.net/newlibrary/display_book.php?bk_no=2&ID=2029&idfrom=3629&idto=3644&bookid=2&startno=12 and second one is from bukhari
« Last Edit: April 13, 2015, 10:08:12 PM by sameer »

 

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