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Most Recent Fadak Discussion on ShiaChat

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Aba AbdAllah

Re: Most Recent Fadak Discussion on ShiaChat
« Reply #60 on: July 28, 2015, 05:51:16 PM »
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There is NO AUTHENTIC narration which says that Ali(r.a) made tafseer of any verse of Quran to claim inheritance from Prophet Mohammad(pbuh), for his wife. Nor did he make tafseer to claim it as gift. You are just clutching at straws by forcing Sunnis to accept munkar(denounced) traditions from terrible chains to prove your flimsy argument.

So you're saying that Imam Ali [as] when asking for Fadak for years didn't know of the existence of Surah maryam?

Lol.
Fadak belonged to the Caliph after Prophet Mohammad(pbuh), even as per Shiee hadeeth, which you try to misinterpret and were busted. Refer Post #3.

Claims made on assumptions are worthless. So when I said, there is no authentic hadeeth, you came up with an assumption. That's Funny.

And there is no proof that Ali(ra) kept demanding Fadak, there's only an ambiguous report where Ali(ra) and Abbas(ra) disputed with each other and approached Umar(ra) for judgement(LOL IT SEEMS ABBAS DIDN'T KNOW FOR DECADES THAT ALI WAS BEST JUDGE).

And Ismail al-Qazi said:

فقال إسماعيل القاضي فيما رواه الدارقطني من طريقه لم يكن في الميراث إنما تنازعا في ولاية الصدقة وفي صرفها كيف تصرف

‘They(Abbas and Ali) were not disputing about the inheritance, but they were disputing about the charity what they shall be the guardian of and how to distribute it’ (Fathul Bari).

For detailed answer refer Arguemnt 5,6,7 in this article:
https://youpuncturedtheark.wordpress.com/2014/09/11/8-sunni-answers-to-shiapens-article-on-fadak-and-inheritance-of-prophetsaw-chapter-eight/


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As for the advice of Ali(ra), to ask him about tafseer, then he was not unique to it, Check this out:

We don't care what your book says about ibn Masud, habibi give me a sahih tradition that says Abu bakr didn't have a shadow and would talk to the angels, it doesn't change the premise of the argument. The premise if the argument is simple....

Was Imam Ali [as] extremely knowledgeable of the Qur'an and Sunnah?

And secondly at the same time as this, was Imam Ali [as] the best judge on earth including being a better judge than ibn masu'd, umar, and Ab?

You bringing me narrations about X person, and this person was also very smart, and this person was promised paradise, etc etc has no bearing whatsoever on anything I'm asking you.

Try to be rational brother I have provided an authentic hadeeth which shows that Abu bakr(ra) has more knowledge regarding Sunnah than Ali(ra). Because Abu Bakr(ra) informed certain hadeeth to Ali(ra) which he did not know. And yes, Ali(ra) was the most knowledgeable Man during his reign WHEN HE SAID THAT ON THE PULPIT, during his Khilafah, but Abu Bakr(ra) was dead by then.

And do you know that Prophet(pbuh) asked to appoint Imam of prayer the man who has more knowledge of Quran and Sunnah, and He(pbuh) himself gave preference to Abubakr(ra) over the rest of Sahaba including Ali(ra) to lead the prayer during his final illness. Isn't it a decisive proof?.
« Last Edit: July 28, 2015, 06:03:05 PM by Aba AbdAllah »

Hani

Re: Most Recent Fadak Discussion on ShiaChat
« Reply #61 on: July 28, 2015, 06:42:04 PM »
You wrote:

[You're mistaken, the hadith is found here in his book.

https://www.islamware.com/app/

(if the link doesn't take you directly to timirzis book, then the hadith number is 151 in Timirzi's book, if you still need help finding it let me know)

حَدَّثَنَا مُحَمَّدُ بْنُ الْمُثَنَّى حَدَّثَنَا عَبْدُ الْوَهَّابِ بْنُ عَبْدِ الْمَجِيدِ حَدَّثَنَا خَالِدٌ الْحَذَّاءُ عَنْ أَبِي قِلَابَةَ عَنْ أَنَسِ بْنِ مَالِكٍ أَنَّ رَسُولَ اللَّهِ صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ قَالَ أَرْحَمُ أُمَّتِي بِأُمَّتِي أَبُو بَكْرٍ وَأَشَدُّهُمْ فِي دِينِ اللَّهِ عُمَرُ وَأَصْدَقُهُمْ حَيَاءً عُثْمَانُ وَأَقْضَاهُمْ عَلِيُّ بْنُ أَبِي طَالِبٍ وَأَقْرَؤُهُمْ لِكِتَابِ اللَّهِ أُبَيُّ بْنُ كَعْبٍ وَأَعْلَمُهُمْ بِالْحَلَالِ وَالْحَرَامِ مُعَاذُ بْنُ جَبَلٍ وَأَفْرَضُهُمْ زَيْدُ بْنُ ثَابِتٍ أَلَا وَإِنَّ لِكُلِّ أُمَّةٍ أَمِينًا وَأَمِينُ هَذِهِ الْأُمَّةِ أَبُو عُبَيْدَةَ بْنُ الْجَرَّاحِ حَدَّثَنَا عَلِيُّ بْنُ مُحَمَّدٍ حَدَّثَنَا وَكِيعٌ عَنْ سُفْيَانَ عَنْ خَالِدٍ الْحَذَّاءِ عَنْ أَبِي قِلَابَةَ مِثْلَهُ عِنْدَ ابْنِ قُدَامَةَ غَيْرَ أَنَّهُ يَقُولُ فِي حَقِّ زَيْدٍ وَأَعْلَمُهُمْ بِالْفَرَائِضِ

Both Timirzi as well as Ibn Majah have this hadith with the exact same chain, with Timirzi also having the phrase "Ali is the best judge among them".]

I went to the website you gave me, in Sunan al-Tirmidhi, Hadith #151 is this:

[حَدَّثَنَا مُحَمَّدُ بْنُ عَبْدِ الْمَلِكِ بْنِ أَبِي الشَّوَارِبِ حَدَّثَنَا أَبُو عَوَانَةَ عَنْ أَبِي بِشْرٍ عَنْ بَشِيرِ بْنِ ثَابِتٍ عَنْ حَبِيبِ بْنِ سَالِمٍ عَنْ النُّعْمَانِ بْنِ بَشِيرٍ قَالَ أَنَا أَعْلَمُ النَّاسِ بِوَقْتِ هَذِهِ الصَّلَاةِ كَانَ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ يُصَلِّيهَا لِسُقُوطِ الْقَمَرِ لِثَالِثَةٍ حَدَّثَنَا أَبُو بَكْرٍ مُحَمَّدُ بْنُ أَبَانَ حَدَّثَنَا عَبْدُ الرَّحْمَنِ بْنُ مَهْدِيٍّ عَنْ أَبِي عَوَانَةَ بِهَذَا الْإِسْنَادِ نَحْوَهُ قَالَ أَبُو عِيسَى رَوَى هَذَا الْحَدِيثَ هُشَيْمٌ عَنْ أَبِي بِشْرٍ عَنْ حَبِيبِ بْنِ سَالِمٍ عَنْ النُّعْمَانِ بْنِ بَشِيرٍ وَلَمْ يَذْكُرْ فِيهِ هُشَيْمٌ عَنْ بَشِيرِ بْنِ ثَابِتٍ وَحَدِيثُ أَبِي عَوَانَةَ أَصَحُّ عِنْدَنَا لِأَنَّ يَزِيدَ بْنَ هَارُونَ رَوَى عَنْ شُعْبَةَ عَنْ أَبِي بِشْرٍ نَحْوَ رِوَايَةِ أَبِي عَوَانَةَ.]

This isn't what you'e referring to I guess?

The only two narrations I found for it were these two in al-Jami`:

#3723

[حَدَّثَنَا سُفْيَانُ بْنُ وَكِيعٍ حَدَّثَنَا حُمَيْدُ بْنُ عَبْدِ الرَّحْمَنِ عَنْ دَاوُدَ الْعَطَّارِ عَنْ مَعْمَرٍ عَنْ قَتَادَةَ عَنْ أَنَسِ بْنِ مَالِكٍ قَالَ قَالَ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ أَرْحَمُ أُمَّتِي بِأُمَّتِي أَبُو بَكْرٍ وَأَشَدُّهُمْ فِي أَمْرِ اللَّهِ عُمَرُ وَأَصْدَقُهُمْ حَيَاءً عُثْمَانُ وَأَعْلَمُهُمْ بِالْحَلَالِ وَالْحَرَامِ مُعَاذُ بْنُ جَبَلٍ وَأَفْرَضُهُمْ زَيْدُ بْنُ ثَابِتٍ وَأَقْرَؤُهُمْ أُبَيٌّ وَلِكُلِّ أُمَّةٍ أَمِينٌ وَأَمِينُ هَذِهِ الْأُمَّةِ أَبُو عُبَيْدَةَ بْنُ الْجَرَّاحِ قَالَ هَذَا حَدِيثٌ حَسَنٌ غَرِيبٌ لَا نَعْرِفُهُ مِنْ حَدِيثِ قَتَادَةَ إِلَّا مِنْ هَذَا الْوَجْهِ وَقَدْ رَوَاهُ أَبُو قِلَابَةَ عَنْ أَنَسٍ عَنْ النَّبِيِّ صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ نَحْوَهُ وَالْمَشْهُورُ حَدِيثُ أَبِي قِلَابَةَ.]

#3724

[حَدَّثَنَا مُحَمَّدُ بْنُ بَشَّارٍ حَدَّثَنَا عَبْدُ الْوَهَّابِ بْنُ عَبْدِ الْمَجِيدِ الثَّقَفِيُّ حَدَّثَنَا خَالِدٌ الْحَذَّاءُ عَنْ أَبِي قِلَابَةَ عَنْ أَنَسِ بْنِ مَالِكٍ قَالَ قَالَ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ أَرْحَمُ أُمَّتِي بِأُمَّتِي أَبُو بَكْرٍ وَأَشَدُّهُمْ فِي أَمْرِ اللَّهِ عُمَرُ وَأَصْدَقُهُمْ حَيَاءً عُثْمَانُ وَأَقْرَؤُهُمْ لِكِتَابِ اللَّهِ أُبَيُّ بْنُ كَعْبٍ وَأَفْرَضُهُمْ زَيْدُ بْنُ ثَابِتٍ وَأَعْلَمُهُمْ بِالْحَلَالِ وَالْحَرَامِ مُعَاذُ بْنُ جَبَلٍ أَلَا وَإِنَّ لِكُلِّ أُمَّةٍ أَمِينًا وَإِنَّ أَمِينَ هَذِهِ الْأُمَّةِ أَبُو عُبَيْدَةَ بْنُ الْجَرَّاحِ هَذَا حَدِيثٌ حَسَنٌ صَحِيحٌ]

Now the report you're quoting is abu Musa Muhammad bin al-Muthanna from `Abdul-Wahhab bin `Abdul-Majid from Khalid al-Hadha'. You also say this is in Tirmidhi and it includes `Ali's judgement.

I never found it in Tirmidhi with this chain so maybe you can help me out in that.

However, I found it only in three sources with the exact same chain:

1st in Sunan ibn Majah and we discussed how it's a recent mistake.

2nd in Risalat ibn `Abdul-Hadi and it doesn't contain `Ali's judgement:

قَالَ أَبُو عَبْدِ اللَّهِ بْنُ مَاجَهْ فِي سُنَنِهِ، ثنا مُحَمَّدُ بْنُ الْمُثَنَّى، ثنا عَبْدُ الْوَهَّابِ بْنُ عَبْدِ الْمَجِيدِ، ثنا خَالِدٌ الْحَذَّاءُ، عَنْ أَبِي قِلابَةَ، عَنْ أَنَسِ بْنِ مَالِكٍ، أَنَّ رَسُولَ اللَّهِ  قَالَ: " أَرْحَمُ أُمَّتِي بِأُمَّتِي أَبُو بَكْرٍ، وَأَشَدُّهُمْ فِي دِينِ اللَّهِ عُمَرُ، وَأَصْدَقُهُمْ حَيَاءً عُثْمَانُ، وَأَقْرَؤُهُمْ لِكِتَابِ اللَّهِ أُبَيُّ بْنُ كَعْبٍ، وَأَعْلَمُهُمْ بِالْحَلالِ وَالْحَرَامِ مُعَاذُ بْنُ جَبَلٍ، وَأَفْرَضُهُمْ زَيْدُ بْنُ ثَابِتٍ، أَلا وَإِنَّ لِكُلِّ أُمَّةٍ أَمِينًا وَإِنَّ أَمِينَ هَذِهِ الأُمَّةِ أَبُو عُبَيْدَةَ بْنُ الْجَرَّاحِ

As you can see he's actually quoting Ibn Majah's Sunan with the same chain but no mention of `Ali's judgement.

3rd in Sahih ibn Hibban with the same chain without `Ali's judgement:

 وَمُحَمَّدُ بْنُ خَالِدِ بْنِ عَبْدِ اللَّهِ، وَمُحَمَّدُ بْنُ بَشَّارٍ، وَأَبُو مُوسَى، قَالُوا: حَدَّثَنَا عَبْدُ الْوَهَّابِ الثَّقَفِيُّ، حَدَّثَنَا خَالِدٌ، عَنْ أَبِي قِلابَةَ، عَنْ أَنَسِ بْنِ مَالِكٍ، قَالَ: قَالَ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ : " أَرْحَمُ أُمَّتِي بِأُمَّتِي أَبُو بَكْرٍ، وَأَشَدَّهُمْ فِي أَمْرِ اللَّهِ عُمَرُ، وَأَصْدَقُهُمْ حَيَاءً عُثْمَانُ، وَأَقْرَؤُهُمْ لِكِتَابِ اللَّهِ أُبَيُّ بْنُ كَعْبٍ، وَأَفْرَضُهُمْ زَيْدُ بْنُ ثَابِتٍ، وَأَعْلَمُهُمْ بِالْحَلالِ وَالْحَرَامِ مُعَاذُ بْنُ جَبَلٍ، وَلِكُلِّ أُمَّةٍ أَمِينٌ، وَأَمِينُ هَذِهِ الأُمَّةِ أَبُو عُبَيْدَةَ بْنُ الْجَرَّاحِ

So far I don't see where you got this from Tirmidhi.
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

Hani

Re: Most Recent Fadak Discussion on ShiaChat
« Reply #62 on: July 28, 2015, 07:27:53 PM »
You said:


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[Your comparison of Ronaldo and Messi is laughable, because if Imam Ali [as] is indeed the best judge on earth, then it is extremely unlikely that with all the evidences presented to him he wouldn't know the ruling regarding a simple inheritance law and persist on it for years.]


Your Madhab is laughable, basically human worshipers. There is no Hadith that says "`Ali is the best judge on earth" when you find that let us know. As for `Ali knowing inheritance laws, seems Zayd knew more about Fara'id and inheritance from that narration you insist on quoting. Also he seems to have been reminded of the special prophetic case of inheritance by other Sahabah.



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Regarding your statement that Umar was only saying this hadith after AB passed away then this is also an ad hoc argument without any proof just conjecture that his hadith was said when AB was in the ground nor do you have any proof that abu bakr was the best judge.  Also we shall prove this further as umar is only repeating what the prophet [saw] said.


Add hoc or minus hoc, doesn't matter. Abu Bakr only ruled for two years, `Umar ruled for many years after him so most likely `Umar said it after his death. I add, If `Ali is a good judge this doesn't mean the rest are terrible, your argument that the better judge will always get it right as opposed to the slightly less better ones is laughable and childish. Go ask a lawyer about how some of the biggest judges don't always make sound decisions let alone our case where `Ali seems to have completely forgotten a religious ruling. As for `Ali insisting on it for years, I disagree and based on my reading he never asked for it as an inheritance he only asked to be allowed to manage it due to his close tie to the Prophet (saw). Otherwise it was an injustice on the part of al-`Abbas and `Ali to only split the land between eachother and leave out the rest of the heirs.


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صلى اللَّه عليه وسلم بعث عليا قاضيا إلى اليمن ، قال : يا رسول اللَّه ، بعثتني أقضي بينهم ، وأنا شاب لا أدري ما القضاء ، فضرب رسول اللَّه صلى اللَّه عليه وسلم في صدره ، وقال : اللَّهم اهده وثبت لسانه ، قال : فوالذي فلق الحبة ما شككت في قضاء بين اثنين ، رواه أبو داود ، والحاكم ، وابن ماجه ، والبزار ، والترمذي ، من طرق عن علي أحسنها رواية البزار عن عمرو بن مرة عن عبد اللَّه بن سلمة عن علي ، وفي إسناده عمرو بن أبي المقدام ، واختلف فيه على عمرو بن مرة ، فرواه شعبة عنه عن أبي البَخْتَري ، قال : حدثني من سمع عليا ، أخرجه أبو يعلى وسنده صحيح


" The prophet [saw] sent Ali [as] as a judge to yemen, so Imam Ali [as] said : Ya Rasulallah send me as the best judge between them since I am a still young and do not know Qadha. So the prophet [saw] hit his chest and said "Oh Allah guide and establish his tongue, then Imam Ali said : by the one who split the seed I did not doubt at all judging between two people.


This means that he became a confident judge it doesn't mean his judgements were all correct and that he cannot err. The same way the Prophet (saw) made Du`a' for abu Hurayrah's memory yet he still forgot at the end of the day. Also this happened at the end of the Pophet's (saw) life, are you saying as an Imami that `Ali was such an ignorant man that he couldn't handle a few cases of judgement? I thought he had divine knowledge and guidance according to your myths but here we see a man towards the end of the Prophet's (saw) life, too scared to judge between a few Yemenis.

عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

Hani

Re: Most Recent Fadak Discussion on ShiaChat
« Reply #63 on: July 28, 2015, 07:40:04 PM »
You wrote:


Quote
It seems like you're pulling a 720 on us, the author is telling you that there exists authentic chains for this hadith, he is also quoting the same matn with the correct version. So what is the point? My point is that how can you have dozens of reports with "Ali being the best judge" found in all the versions of this hadith in different manuscripts weak and strong


If there's authentic chains then go ahead and show us some. Gimme like 3 authentic ones from those "dozens".



Quote

Are you telling me that Ali [as] being described as the best judge and the one who the companions relied upon for their tafseer of both the sunnah and Qur'an didn't know what he was talking about?


`Ali didn't say "ONLY I KNOW ABOUT THE QURAN AND SUNNAH", there were loads of scholars among the companions who were relied upon. Your ignorance of this matter is no excuse.



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So you're saying that Imam Ali [as] when asking for Fadak for years didn't know of the existence of Surah maryam?


They asked for Fadak ONLY ONCE during Abu Bakr's reign. `Ali and al-`Abbas, when they came to `Umar, they were not asking for Fadak or Khaybar, they just asked for control of the Sadaqat of Madinah from the property of banu al-Nadeer(Jews) and Mukhayreeq as they believed they were at least entitled to do so.


We read in the books of Sunan:


عَلِيًّا، وَالْعَبَّاسَ رضي الله عنهما يختصمان فيما أفاء الله على رَسُولِ اللَّهِ مِنْ أَمْوَالِ بَنِي النَّضِير
[`Ali and al-`Abbas both disputed over what Allah has given as Fay’ to his messenger from the property of banu al-Nadeer.]


هُمَا يَخْتَصِمَانِ فِي الصَّوَافِي الَّتِي أَفَاءَ اللَّهُ عَلَى رَسُولِهِ مِنْ أَمْوَالِ بَنِي النَّضِير
[And they were disputing regarding the pure possessions that Allah granted as Fay’ to his messenger (saw) from bani al-Nadeer.]



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Why do you think Hani and his buds are working so hard to weaken this hadith?


Because it is weak. I don't mind believing that `Ali was the best judge yet was incorrect in his judgement.
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

Hani

Re: Most Recent Fadak Discussion on ShiaChat
« Reply #64 on: July 28, 2015, 08:10:38 PM »
Your unqualified biased opinion on the chain of `Atiyyah's Hadith.


Last you were quoting Ibn Hajar, now it seems Ibn Hajar's opinions do not suite you since based on his verdict all four narrators make errors and mistakes in their Hadith. You now jump all over the place to pick the Tawtheeq of WHOEVER it is even if most experts weaken a person you will side with the minority who authenticated a man just so you can consider it "Hasan". How misguided you are...


SO here's your post:


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First narrator Hussayn


ذكره ابْن حبان في الثقات


Ibn Hibaan mentions him in his thiqaat.


Second narrator Saeed
يَحْيَى بْن معين : ثقة


Yahya ibn maeen: Thiqa


Third narrator Fudhayl


وثقه سفيان بن عيينة ، ويحيى بن معين


Yahya ibn maeen and Sufyan say he's thiqa.


Fourth narrator Atiya


Yaha Ibn maeen gives him tawtheeq, Timrizi includes him in an authentic chain, many other scholars give him tawtheeq.


Well this report falls right from the first narrator Husayn, since Ibn Hibban makes Tawtheeq of Majaheel, so the man is Majhool and the Hadith is weak. Give us the first guy's Tawtheeq then we'll discuss the other narrators.


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Ibn Hajr said he is saduq but does tadlees.


Oh sorry, let me correct that for you since you appear to have missed a part of what Ibn Hajar said.


Ibn Hajar: "Saduq, makes a lot of mistakes, he was a Shia who did Tadlees."


You Shia are such honest academic folks, very reliable in your selective quotations.


Now Ibn abi Hatim said that the Saduq narrator who makes a lot of mistakes, his narrations in case of Tafarrud are rejected unless they are related to matters of Adab and Zuhd and Akhlaq.


More importantly, the two experts abu Hatim and abu Zur`ah said in the book of `Ilal that this chain is Mursal and that the original report doesn't even have abu Sa`eed in it, it stops at `Atiyyah:



وَسألت أبي، وأبا زرعة، عَنْ حديث رَوَاهُ سَعِيدُ بْنُ خُثَيْمٍ، عَنْ فُضَيْلِ بْنِ مَرْزُوقٍ، عَنْ أَبِي سَعِيدٍ، قَالَ: لَمَّا نَزَلَتْ هَذِهِ الآيَةُ:ف وَآتِ ذَا الْقُرْبَى حَقَّهُق، دَعَا النَّبِيُّ  فَاطِمَةَ فَجَعَلَ لَهَا فَدَكًا. فقالا: إنما هو عَنْ عَطِيَّةَ، قَالَ: لما نزلت. مرسل. قَالَ: ليس فيه ذكر أَبِي سَعِيد قَالَ أَبُو زُرْعَةَ: حَدَّثَنَا أَبُو نعيم، عَنْ فضيل، عَنْ عطية فقط قَالَ: لما نزلت. ليس فيه ذكر أَبِي سَعِيد

« Last Edit: July 28, 2015, 08:12:37 PM by Hani »
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

Abu-jafar herz

Re: Most Recent Fadak Discussion on ShiaChat
« Reply #65 on: July 29, 2015, 03:30:00 PM »
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You wrote:

[You're mistaken, the hadith is found here in his book.

https://www.islamware.com/app/

(if the link doesn't take you directly to timirzis book, then the hadith number is 151 in Timirzi's book, if you still need help finding it let me know)

حَدَّثَنَا مُحَمَّدُ بْنُ الْمُثَنَّى حَدَّثَنَا عَبْدُ الْوَهَّابِ بْنُ عَبْدِ الْمَجِيدِ حَدَّثَنَا خَالِدٌ الْحَذَّاءُ عَنْ أَبِي قِلَابَةَ عَنْ أَنَسِ بْنِ مَالِكٍ أَنَّ رَسُولَ اللَّهِ صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ قَالَ أَرْحَمُ أُمَّتِي بِأُمَّتِي أَبُو بَكْرٍ وَأَشَدُّهُمْ فِي دِينِ اللَّهِ عُمَرُ وَأَصْدَقُهُمْ حَيَاءً عُثْمَانُ وَأَقْضَاهُمْ عَلِيُّ بْنُ أَبِي طَالِبٍ وَأَقْرَؤُهُمْ لِكِتَابِ اللَّهِ أُبَيُّ بْنُ كَعْبٍ وَأَعْلَمُهُمْ بِالْحَلَالِ وَالْحَرَامِ مُعَاذُ بْنُ جَبَلٍ وَأَفْرَضُهُمْ زَيْدُ بْنُ ثَابِتٍ أَلَا وَإِنَّ لِكُلِّ أُمَّةٍ أَمِينًا وَأَمِينُ هَذِهِ الْأُمَّةِ أَبُو عُبَيْدَةَ بْنُ الْجَرَّاحِ حَدَّثَنَا عَلِيُّ بْنُ مُحَمَّدٍ حَدَّثَنَا وَكِيعٌ عَنْ سُفْيَانَ عَنْ خَالِدٍ الْحَذَّاءِ عَنْ أَبِي قِلَابَةَ مِثْلَهُ عِنْدَ ابْنِ قُدَامَةَ غَيْرَ أَنَّهُ يَقُولُ فِي حَقِّ زَيْدٍ وَأَعْلَمُهُمْ بِالْفَرَائِضِ

Both Timirzi as well as Ibn Majah have this hadith with the exact same chain, with Timirzi also having the phrase "Ali is the best judge among them".]

I went to the website you gave me, in Sunan al-Tirmidhi, Hadith #151 is this:

[حَدَّثَنَا مُحَمَّدُ بْنُ عَبْدِ الْمَلِكِ بْنِ أَبِي الشَّوَارِبِ حَدَّثَنَا أَبُو عَوَانَةَ عَنْ أَبِي بِشْرٍ عَنْ بَشِيرِ بْنِ ثَابِتٍ عَنْ حَبِيبِ بْنِ سَالِمٍ عَنْ النُّعْمَانِ بْنِ بَشِيرٍ قَالَ أَنَا أَعْلَمُ النَّاسِ بِوَقْتِ هَذِهِ الصَّلَاةِ كَانَ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ يُصَلِّيهَا لِسُقُوطِ الْقَمَرِ لِثَالِثَةٍ حَدَّثَنَا أَبُو بَكْرٍ مُحَمَّدُ بْنُ أَبَانَ حَدَّثَنَا عَبْدُ الرَّحْمَنِ بْنُ مَهْدِيٍّ عَنْ أَبِي عَوَانَةَ بِهَذَا الْإِسْنَادِ نَحْوَهُ قَالَ أَبُو عِيسَى رَوَى هَذَا الْحَدِيثَ هُشَيْمٌ عَنْ أَبِي بِشْرٍ عَنْ حَبِيبِ بْنِ سَالِمٍ عَنْ النُّعْمَانِ بْنِ بَشِيرٍ وَلَمْ يَذْكُرْ فِيهِ هُشَيْمٌ عَنْ بَشِيرِ بْنِ ثَابِتٍ وَحَدِيثُ أَبِي عَوَانَةَ أَصَحُّ عِنْدَنَا لِأَنَّ يَزِيدَ بْنَ هَارُونَ رَوَى عَنْ شُعْبَةَ عَنْ أَبِي بِشْرٍ نَحْوَ رِوَايَةِ أَبِي عَوَانَةَ.]

This isn't what you'e referring to I guess?

The only two narrations I found for it were these two in al-Jami`:

#3723

[حَدَّثَنَا سُفْيَانُ بْنُ وَكِيعٍ حَدَّثَنَا حُمَيْدُ بْنُ عَبْدِ الرَّحْمَنِ عَنْ دَاوُدَ الْعَطَّارِ عَنْ مَعْمَرٍ عَنْ قَتَادَةَ عَنْ أَنَسِ بْنِ مَالِكٍ قَالَ قَالَ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ أَرْحَمُ أُمَّتِي بِأُمَّتِي أَبُو بَكْرٍ وَأَشَدُّهُمْ فِي أَمْرِ اللَّهِ عُمَرُ وَأَصْدَقُهُمْ حَيَاءً عُثْمَانُ وَأَعْلَمُهُمْ بِالْحَلَالِ وَالْحَرَامِ مُعَاذُ بْنُ جَبَلٍ وَأَفْرَضُهُمْ زَيْدُ بْنُ ثَابِتٍ وَأَقْرَؤُهُمْ أُبَيٌّ وَلِكُلِّ أُمَّةٍ أَمِينٌ وَأَمِينُ هَذِهِ الْأُمَّةِ أَبُو عُبَيْدَةَ بْنُ الْجَرَّاحِ قَالَ هَذَا حَدِيثٌ حَسَنٌ غَرِيبٌ لَا نَعْرِفُهُ مِنْ حَدِيثِ قَتَادَةَ إِلَّا مِنْ هَذَا الْوَجْهِ وَقَدْ رَوَاهُ أَبُو قِلَابَةَ عَنْ أَنَسٍ عَنْ النَّبِيِّ صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ نَحْوَهُ وَالْمَشْهُورُ حَدِيثُ أَبِي قِلَابَةَ.]

#3724

[حَدَّثَنَا مُحَمَّدُ بْنُ بَشَّارٍ حَدَّثَنَا عَبْدُ الْوَهَّابِ بْنُ عَبْدِ الْمَجِيدِ الثَّقَفِيُّ حَدَّثَنَا خَالِدٌ الْحَذَّاءُ عَنْ أَبِي قِلَابَةَ عَنْ أَنَسِ بْنِ مَالِكٍ قَالَ قَالَ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ أَرْحَمُ أُمَّتِي بِأُمَّتِي أَبُو بَكْرٍ وَأَشَدُّهُمْ فِي أَمْرِ اللَّهِ عُمَرُ وَأَصْدَقُهُمْ حَيَاءً عُثْمَانُ وَأَقْرَؤُهُمْ لِكِتَابِ اللَّهِ أُبَيُّ بْنُ كَعْبٍ وَأَفْرَضُهُمْ زَيْدُ بْنُ ثَابِتٍ وَأَعْلَمُهُمْ بِالْحَلَالِ وَالْحَرَامِ مُعَاذُ بْنُ جَبَلٍ أَلَا وَإِنَّ لِكُلِّ أُمَّةٍ أَمِينًا وَإِنَّ أَمِينَ هَذِهِ الْأُمَّةِ أَبُو عُبَيْدَةَ بْنُ الْجَرَّاحِ هَذَا حَدِيثٌ حَسَنٌ صَحِيحٌ]

Now the report you're quoting is abu Musa Muhammad bin al-Muthanna from `Abdul-Wahhab bin `Abdul-Majid from Khalid al-Hadha'. You also say this is in Tirmidhi and it includes `Ali's judgement.

I never found it in Tirmidhi with this chain so maybe you can help me out in that.

However, I found it only in three sources with the exact same chain:

1st in Sunan ibn Majah and we discussed how it's a recent mistake.

2nd in Risalat ibn `Abdul-Hadi and it doesn't contain `Ali's judgement:

قَالَ أَبُو عَبْدِ اللَّهِ بْنُ مَاجَهْ فِي سُنَنِهِ، ثنا مُحَمَّدُ بْنُ الْمُثَنَّى، ثنا عَبْدُ الْوَهَّابِ بْنُ عَبْدِ الْمَجِيدِ، ثنا خَالِدٌ الْحَذَّاءُ، عَنْ أَبِي قِلابَةَ، عَنْ أَنَسِ بْنِ مَالِكٍ، أَنَّ رَسُولَ اللَّهِ  قَالَ: " أَرْحَمُ أُمَّتِي بِأُمَّتِي أَبُو بَكْرٍ، وَأَشَدُّهُمْ فِي دِينِ اللَّهِ عُمَرُ، وَأَصْدَقُهُمْ حَيَاءً عُثْمَانُ، وَأَقْرَؤُهُمْ لِكِتَابِ اللَّهِ أُبَيُّ بْنُ كَعْبٍ، وَأَعْلَمُهُمْ بِالْحَلالِ وَالْحَرَامِ مُعَاذُ بْنُ جَبَلٍ، وَأَفْرَضُهُمْ زَيْدُ بْنُ ثَابِتٍ، أَلا وَإِنَّ لِكُلِّ أُمَّةٍ أَمِينًا وَإِنَّ أَمِينَ هَذِهِ الأُمَّةِ أَبُو عُبَيْدَةَ بْنُ الْجَرَّاحِ

As you can see he's actually quoting Ibn Majah's Sunan with the same chain but no mention of `Ali's judgement.

3rd in Sahih ibn Hibban with the same chain without `Ali's judgement:

 وَمُحَمَّدُ بْنُ خَالِدِ بْنِ عَبْدِ اللَّهِ، وَمُحَمَّدُ بْنُ بَشَّارٍ، وَأَبُو مُوسَى، قَالُوا: حَدَّثَنَا عَبْدُ الْوَهَّابِ الثَّقَفِيُّ، حَدَّثَنَا خَالِدٌ، عَنْ أَبِي قِلابَةَ، عَنْ أَنَسِ بْنِ مَالِكٍ، قَالَ: قَالَ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ : " أَرْحَمُ أُمَّتِي بِأُمَّتِي أَبُو بَكْرٍ، وَأَشَدَّهُمْ فِي أَمْرِ اللَّهِ عُمَرُ، وَأَصْدَقُهُمْ حَيَاءً عُثْمَانُ، وَأَقْرَؤُهُمْ لِكِتَابِ اللَّهِ أُبَيُّ بْنُ كَعْبٍ، وَأَفْرَضُهُمْ زَيْدُ بْنُ ثَابِتٍ، وَأَعْلَمُهُمْ بِالْحَلالِ وَالْحَرَامِ مُعَاذُ بْنُ جَبَلٍ، وَلِكُلِّ أُمَّةٍ أَمِينٌ، وَأَمِينُ هَذِهِ الأُمَّةِ أَبُو عُبَيْدَةَ بْنُ الْجَرَّاحِ

So far I don't see where you got this from Tirmidhi.

We can play the rijal and manuscript game all you like, but the fact of the matter is this hadith is Mutawatir in your books with multiple chains, including a statement from Umar in bukhari that backs the statement up.

وى أحمد عن أبي البختري عن علي عليه السّلام قال: «بعثني رسول الله صلّى الله عليه وآله وسلّم إلى اليمن وأنا حديث السن قال: قلت: تبعثني إلى قوم يكون بينهم أحداث ولا علم لي بالقضاء قال: انّ الله سيهدي لسانك ويثبت قلبك، قال: فما شككت في قضاء بين اثنين بعد»(1).
وروى الحاكم باسناده عن أنس بن مالك: «ان النبي صلّى الله عليه وآله وسلّم قال لعلي: أنت تبين لأمتي ما اختلفوا فيه بعدي»(2).
وروى الشبلنجي عن ابن مسعود، قال: «أفرض أهل المدينة وأقضاها علي»(3).
وروى الخوارزمي بأسناده عن أبي سعيد الخدري: «قال رسول الله صلّى الله عليه وآله وسلّم: ان اقضى أمتي علي بن أبي طالب»(4).
وروى ابن عبد البر باسناده عن أبي فروة قال: سمعت عبد الرحمن بن أبي ليلى، قال: قال عمر: «علي أقضانا»(5).
وروى المتّقي عن عليّ: «انطلق فاقرأها على النّاس، فانّ الله يثبّت لسانك ويهدي قلبك، انّ الناس سيتقاضون اليك، فاذا أتاك الخصمان فلا تقض لواحد حتى تسمع كلام الآخر، فانّه أجدر أن تعلم لمن الحق»(6).
وروى ابن عساكر باسناده عن عبدالله، قال: «أقضى أهل المدينة علي بن أبي طالب»(7).
وروى ابن حجر باسناده قال: «قال رسول الله صلّى الله عليه وآله وسلّم: أقضاكم علي»(8).
وروى الشنقيطي باسناده عن معاذ بن جبل قال: قال رسول الله صلّى الله عليه وآله وسلّم: «أنت اولهم ايماناً بالله وأوفاهم بعهد الله، وأقومهم بأمر الله، وأقسمهم بالسوية وأعدلهم في الرعية وابصرهم بالقضية واعظمهم عند الله»(9).
وروى ابن عساكر باسناده عن ابن عبّاس قال: «قال رسول الله صلّى الله عليه وآله وسلّم: «علي أقضى أمتي بكتاب الله فمن أحبني فليحبه، فان العبد لا ينال ولايتي الاّ بحب علي»(10).
وباسناده عن ابن عبّاس قال: «بعث النبي صلّى الله عليه وآله وسلّم علياً إلى اليمن، فقال: علّمهم الشرائع واقض بينهم قال: لا علم لي بالقضاء، قال: فدفع في صدره وقال: اللّهم اهده الى القضاء، فنهاهم عن الدّباء والحنتم والمزفّت»(11).
روى المتّقي باسناده عن علي، قال: «أتى النبي صلّى الله عليه وآله وسلّم ناس من اليمن، فقالوا ابعث فينا من يفقهنا في الدين، ويعلمنا السنن، ويحكم فينا بكتاب الله، فقال النبي صلّى الله عليه وآله وسلّم: انطلق يا علي الى أهل اليمن، ففقههم في الدين وعلّمهم السنن واحكم فيهم بكتاب الله، فقلت: ان أهل اليمن قوم طغاة يأتوني من القضاء بما لا علم لي به. فضرب النبي صلّى الله عليه وآله وسلّم على صدري، ثم قال: اذهب فان الله سيهدي قلبك ويثبت لسانك. فما شككت في قضاء بين اثنين حتى الساعة»(12).
قال الزبيدي: «الديان: القاضي، ومنه الحديث: كان علي ديان هذه الامة بعد نبيها، أي قاضيها»(13).
قال محمّد بن طلحة: «نقل القاضي الإمام أبو محمّد الحسين بن مسعود البغوي في كتابه المسمى بالمصابيح مروياً عن أنس بن مالك: ان رسول الله صلّى الله عليه وآله وسلّم لما خَصّ جماعة من الصحابة كل واحد بفضيلة، خَصَصَ علياً عليه السّلام بعلم القضاء فقال: وأقضاهم علي. فقد صدع هذا بمنطوقه وصرح بمفهومه ان انواع العلم واقسامه قد جمعها رسول صلّى الله عليه وآله وسلّم لعلي دون غيره فان كل واحد ممن خصصه رسول الله صلّى الله عليه وآله وسلّم بفضيلة خاصة لم يتوقف حصول تلك الفضيلة على غيرها من الفضائل والعلوم، فانه صلّى الله عليه وآله وسلّم قال: أفرضهم زيد، وأقرؤهم أبيّ، وأعلمهم بالحلال والحرام معاذ، ولا يخفى أن علم الفرائض لا يفتقر إلى علم آخر، ومعرفة القراءة لا يتوقف على سواها، وكذلك العلم بالحلال والحرام. بخلاف علم القضاء فالنبي صلّى الله عليه وآله وسلّم قد أخبر بثبوت هذه الصفة العالية لعلي عليه السّلام مع زيادة فيها فان صيغة أفعل يقتضي وجود أصل ذلك الوصف والزيادة فيه على غيره، وإذا كانت هذه الصفة العالية قد أثبتها له فتكون حاصلة، ومن ضرورة حصولها له ان يكون متصفاً بها ولا يتصف بها الا بعد أن يكون كامل العقل صحيح التميز، جيّد الفطنة، بعيداً عن السهو والغفلة، يتوصل بتفضيله إلى وضوح ما استكمل، وفصل ما اعضل، ذا عدالة تحجزه عن أن يحوم حول حمى المحارم ومروة تحمله على محاسن الشيم، ومجانبة الدّنايا، صادق اللهجة، ظاهر الامانة، عفيفاً عن المحظورات مـأموناً في السخـط والرضا، عارفاً بالكتاب والسنة والاتفاق والاختلاف والقياس ولغة العرب، بحيث يقدم المحكم على المتشابه، والخاص على العام، والمبين على المجمل، والناسخ على المنسوخ ويبني المطلق على المقيد ويقضي بالتواتر دون الآحاد وبالمسند دون المرسل، وبالمتصل دون المنقطع وبالاتفاق دون الاختلاف... ليتوصلّ بها إلى الاحكام فليس كل حكم منصوصاً عليه، ويعرف اقسام الاحكام من الواجب والمحظور والمندوب والمكروه، فهذه امور لا يصحّ اتصاف الانسان بعلم القضاء ما لم يحط بمعرفتها ومتى فقد علمه بها لا يصلح للقضاء ولا يصلح اتصافه به فظهر لك ـ أيدك الله تعالى ـ ان رسول الله صلّى الله عليه وآله وسلّم حيث وصف علياً بهذه الصفة العالية بمنطوق لفظه المثبت له فضلا، فقد وصفه بمفهومه بهذه العلوم المشروحة المتنوعة الأقسام فرعاً واصلا، وكفى بذلك دلالة لمن خص بهدية الهداية قولا وفعلا على ارتقاء علي عليه السّلام في مناهج معارج العلوم الى المقام الاعلى، وضربه في اعتناء الفضائل المجزاة بالتساهم بالقدح المعـلى حصول هـذه المناقب والآلاء وشمول هذه المطالب السنية، الحاصلة لعلي عليه السّلام من مواد علم القضاء كان مناط افاضة انوارها عليه، ان رسول الله صلّى الله عليه وآله وسلّم قبل ذلك لما انتدبه وانتضاه، وآثره وارتضاه، وفوض اليه قضاء اليمن وولاه أحجم إحجاماً، فلما أحس رسول الله صلّى الله عليه وآله وسلّم ذلك منه أخبره بان الله عزوعلا سيرزق قلبه الهدى والتثبيت له من الله تعالى فلن يضل ابداً. فمن ذلك ما نقله الإمام أبو داود سليمان بن الاشعث في مسنده يرفعه بسنده إلى علي عليه السّلام قال: أرسلني رسول الله صلّى الله عليه وآله وسلّم إلى اليمن قاضياً، فقلت: يا رسول الله، ترسلني وأنا حديث السن ولا علم لي بالقضاء، فقال لي رسول الله: ان الله سيهدي قلبك ويثبت لسانك، فإذا جلس بين يديك الخصمان، فلا تقضين حتى تسمع من الآخر كما سمعت من الأول فانه أحرى أن يبين لك القضاء، قال: فما زلت قاضياً وما شككت في قضاء بعد، فهبت عليه النسمات الآلهية من العناية النبوية بألطاف التأييد ونزل عليه الملكان الموكلان بالمحقين، فألبساه رداء التوفيق والتسديد فوفرت حقائق علم القضاء في صدره حتى ما على احاطته بهما من مزيد، وأثمرت حدائق فضائله، فنخلها بالمعرفة باسقات ذوات طلع نضيد، فلما رسخ علمه عليه السّلام بمواد القضاء رسوخاً لا تحركه الهواب ورسا قدم فهمه في قواعد معرفته بحيث لا يعترضه الاضطراب، وصفه رسول الله صلّى الله عليه وآله وسلّم بقوله: أقضاكم علي، اذ وضحت لديه الاسباب وتفتحت بين يديه الابواب، وشرحت له السنن والآداب، حتى قال قال له رسول الله صلّى الله عليه وآله وسلّم: ليهنك العلم أبا الحسن لقد شربه العلم شرباً ونهلته نهلا»(14).



 You tried to attack the hadith from umar by saying that "he could of meant it only when abu bakr was dead" using ad hoc argument with no proof whatsoever that abu bakr was a better judge than Ali.

Secondly there is a sahih report from ya3la where I quoted the following hadith

 صلى اللَّه عليه وسلم بعث عليا قاضيا إلى اليمن ، قال : يا رسول اللَّه ، بعثتني أقضي بينهم ، وأنا شاب لا أدري ما القضاء ، فضرب رسول اللَّه صلى اللَّه عليه وسلم في صدره ، وقال : اللَّهم اهده وثبت لسانه ، قال : فوالذي فلق الحبة ما شككت في قضاء بين اثنين ، رواه أبو داود ، والحاكم ، وابن ماجه ، والبزار ، والترمذي ، من طرق عن علي أحسنها رواية البزار عن عمرو بن مرة عن عبد اللَّه بن سلمة عن علي ، وفي إسناده عمرو بن أبي المقدام ، واختلف فيه على عمرو بن مرة ، فرواه شعبة عنه عن أبي البَخْتَري ، قال : حدثني من سمع عليا ، أخرجه أبو يعلى وسنده صحيح

" The prophet [saw] sent Ali [as] as a judge to yemen, so Imam Ali [as] said : Ya Rasulallah send me as the best judge between them since I am a still young and do not know Qadha. So the prophet [saw] hit his chest and said "Oh Allah guide and establish his tongue, then Imam Ali said : by the one who split the seed I did not doubt at all judging between two people.

yuala reported this hadith with a sahih chain.


This hadith says that Allah guides the tongue of Ali when it comes to judgement, this is actually stronger than the hadith we've been trying to argue over.....

Thirdly, Umar himself says that Ali is the best judge among the people, do you know Ali better than Umar? When it comes to Umar you people will sing his praises day and night but when it comes to Umar saying something you don't like you push it aside as a mere opinion.

And Lastly, Imam Ali [as] himself says in authentic narrations in your books that he there would not be anything in the book of Allah that he did not know the minute details of.

قال ابن كثير في التفسير: قال شعبة بن الحجاج، عن سماك بن خالد بن عرعرة، أنه سمع عليا- رضي الله عنه- وشعبة أيضا عن القاسم بن أبي بزة، عن أبي الطفيل، أنه سمع عليا- رضي الله عنه- وثبت أيضا من غير وجه عن أمير المؤمنين علي بن أبي طالب- رضي الله عنه- أنه صعد منبر الكوفة فقال: لا تسألوني عن آية في كتاب الله تعالى ولا عن سنة عن رسول الله- صلى الله عليه وسلم- إلا أنبأتكم بذلك. فقام ابن الكواء، فقال: يا أمير المؤمنين، ما معنى قوله تعالى: «وَالذَّارِياتِ ذَرْواً» ؟ قال علي- رضي الله عنه: الريح.


عن معمر عن وهب بن عبد الله عن أبي الطفيل قال شهدت عليا وهو يخطب وهو يقول سلوني فوالله لا تسألوني عن شيء يكون إلى يوم القيامة إلا حدثتكم به وسلوني عن كتاب الله فوالله ما من آية إلا وأنا أعلم بليل نزلت أم بنهار أم في سهل أم في جبل.


This is not to mention the amount of hadith you have in your books attesting to the superiority of Ali's [as] knowledge which number into beyond mutwatir.


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Your Madhab is laughable, basically human worshipers.

This is coming from a person who thinks Allah has fingers, two right hands, two legs, eyes,a shin,comes and goes, laughs, descends like an elevator (Ibn taymiyya would demonstrate this with his break dancing on the pulpit).


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There is no Hadith that says "`Ali is the best judge on earth" when you find that let us know.
As for `Ali knowing inheritance laws, seems Zayd knew more about Fara'id and inheritance from that narration you insist on quoting. Also he seems to have been reminded of the special prophetic case of inheritance by other Sahabah.

Ibn Taymiyyah says that Zayd ibn thaabit was never known for inheritance laws. :) This is why he rejected the hadith I gave you, just for that reason....

it doesn't matter what additional details your hadith says, again, you can give me a hadith where umar makes shaytan run away, or uthman making the angels blush, it doesn't matter to me. What matters to me is that the statement "Ali is the best judge", is established.

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Add hoc or minus hoc, doesn't matter. Abu Bakr only ruled for two years, `Umar ruled for many years after him so most likely `Umar said it after his death. I add, If `Ali is a good judge this doesn't mean the rest are terrible, your argument that the better judge will always get it right as opposed to the slightly less better ones is laughable and childish. Go ask a lawyer about how some of the biggest judges don't always make sound decisions let alone our case where `Ali seems to have completely forgotten a religious ruling. As for `Ali insisting on it for years, I disagree and based on my reading he never asked for it as an inheritance he only asked to be allowed to manage it due to his close tie to the Prophet (saw). Otherwise it was an injustice on the part of al-`Abbas and `Ali to only split the land between eachother and leave out the rest of the heirs.

Do you know what a strawman is? You're setting a strawman up and getting it to death. I never made the above argument.

My argument is...

1- The case is simple, prophets don't inherit, this is a single piece of information its either true or not.
2- Ali is the best judge.
3- Ali persisted on his rejection even until umar's time.

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They asked for Fadak ONLY ONCE during Abu Bakr's reign. `Ali and al-`Abbas, when they came to `Umar, they were not asking for Fadak or Khaybar, they just asked for control of the Sadaqat of Madinah from the property of banu al-Nadeer(Jews) and Mukhayreeq as they believed they were at least entitled to do so.


We read in the books of Sunan:


عَلِيًّا، وَالْعَبَّاسَ رضي الله عنهما يختصمان فيما أفاء الله على رَسُولِ اللَّهِ مِنْ أَمْوَالِ بَنِي النَّضِير
[`Ali and al-`Abbas both disputed over what Allah has given as Fay’ to his messenger from the property of banu al-Nadeer.]


هُمَا يَخْتَصِمَانِ فِي الصَّوَافِي الَّتِي أَفَاءَ اللَّهُ عَلَى رَسُولِهِ مِنْ أَمْوَالِ بَنِي النَّضِير
[And they were disputing regarding the pure possessions that Allah granted as Fay’ to his messenger (saw) from bani al-Nadeer.]


Are you kidding me, do you even know what you're talking about?

this is fadak.

The only land that was given as Fay from banu nadheer is Fadak.

Go back to shiachat, see our debate where 720 makes the same arguments you're using, see my responses and stop wasting my time.

Also look at the hadith..

Sahih Muslim Book 019, Number 4349
“When the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) passed away, Abu Bakr said:” I am the successor of the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him).” Both of you came to demand your shares from the property (left behind by the Messenger of Allah). (Referring to Hadhrat ‘Abbas), he said: You demanded your share from the property of your nephew,
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and he (referring to ‘Ali) demanded a share on behalf of his wife from the property of her father.
Abu Bakr (Allah be pleased with him) said: The Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) had said:” We do not have any heirs; what we leave behind is (to be given in) charity.” So both of you thought him to be a liar, sinful, treacherous and dishonest.  And Allah knows that he was true, virtuous, well-guided and a follower of truth. When Abu Bakr passed away and (I have become) the successor of the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) and Abu Bakr (Allah be pleased with him), you thought me to be a liar, sinful, treacherous and dishonest”.

The Arabic is more clear

 وَيَطْلُبُ هَذَا مِيرَاثَ امْرَأَتِهِ مِنْ أَبِيهَا

Umar : " And he is requesting his wife's inheritance from her father".

So even after abu bakr's death, Ali [as] is still requesting inheritance meaning that he disagreed with abu bakr's interpretation of the hadith that prophets leave knowledge for the ummah.

Also He is clearly requesting the Fay from Banu nadeer that Fatima requested, which is Fadak. There is no other land that was given as fay from banu nadeer except Fadak.
« Last Edit: July 29, 2015, 04:21:27 PM by Abu-jafar herz »

muslim720

Re: Most Recent Fadak Discussion on ShiaChat
« Reply #66 on: July 29, 2015, 03:41:22 PM »
1.  The only land that was given as Fay from banu nadheer is Fadak.

2.  Go back to shiachat, see our debate where 720 makes the same arguments you're using, see my responses and stop wasting my time.

1.  You have not established that.  Even if we assume that Imam Ali [ra] was the best judge, literally word for word as the narration states, it does not mean that Fadak was given to Fatima [ra].  You add the fact that the best judge never reclaimed Fadak, in fact he maintained the same stance as Abu Bakr [ra], then it is obvious that you are not following the best judge [ra] or you think you might know better than him.

Also, there is a huge logical, religious and historical gap between Fay belonging exclusively to the Prophet [saw] and him [saw] gifting it to Fatima [ra].

Lastly, I have provided you narrations stating what the lands were used for, one which explicitly states that Fadak was used for travelers.

2.  Do you realize that I started this thread to show people how helpless you were in ShiaChat?  The fact that you are comfortable expressing your opinion over certain narrations while overlooking Fadak altogether - hoping that your reckless leap from "best judge" to "Fadak was gifted to Fatima [ra]" would work wonders - says very little about you.

Hence, you have yet to prove that the Prophet [saw] gave Fadak to Fatima [ra] because the commentary for verse 26 of Surah Al-Israa is rejected based on its chain and matn.  Attiya is weak and the verse was revealed in Mecca to begin with.
"Our coward ran from those in authority" - Iceman (admitting the truth regarding his 12th Imam)

Abu-jafar herz

Re: Most Recent Fadak Discussion on ShiaChat
« Reply #67 on: July 29, 2015, 03:54:34 PM »
^
The land that was given as Fay from Banu Nadeer is fadak.


Tafseer Ibn katheer

قال تعالى: { فَلِلَّهِ وَلِلرَّسُولِ وَلِذِى ٱلْقُرْبَىٰ وَٱلْيَتَامَىٰ وَٱلْمَسَـٰكِينِ وَٱبْنِ ٱلسَّبِيلِ } إلى آخرها، والتي بعدها، فهذه مصارف أموال الفيء ووجوهه. قال الإمام أحمد: حدثنا سفيان، عن عمرو ومَعْمر، عن الزهري، عن مالك بن أوس بن الحدثان، عن عمر، رضي الله عنه قال: كانت أموال بني النضير مما أفاء الله على رسوله مما لو يوجف المسلمون عليه بخيل ولا ركاب، فكانت لرسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم خالصة،

Abu-jafar herz

Re: Most Recent Fadak Discussion on ShiaChat
« Reply #68 on: July 29, 2015, 03:56:21 PM »
Muslim720 if you're going to complain and cry like you did in the other thread, please just leave the conversation.

Aba AbdAllah

Re: Most Recent Fadak Discussion on ShiaChat
« Reply #69 on: July 29, 2015, 04:27:31 PM »
Are you kidding me, do you even know what you're talking about?

this is fadak.

The only land that was given as Fay from banu nadheer is Fadak.
This Hadeeth should answer your confusion.

We read in Sahi muslim Bk 19, Number 4354: Ayesha(ra) said: So far as the charitable endowments at Medina were concerned, ‘Umar handed them over to ‘Ali and Abbas, but ‘Ali got the better of him. And as far as Khaibar and Fadak were concerned ‘Umar kept them with him, and said: These are the endowments of the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) (to the Umma). Their income was spent on the discharge of the responsibilities that devolved upon him on the emergencies he had to meet. And their management was to be in the hands of one who managed the affairs (of the Islamic State). The (sub)narrator said: They have been managed as such up to this day.

They wanted to be entrusted with the charitable endowments, for which they were disputing, since Ali(ra) got better of that.

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Also look at the hadith..

Sahih Muslim Book 019, Number 4349
“When the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) passed away, Abu Bakr said:” I am the successor of the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him).” Both of you came to demand your shares from the property (left behind by the Messenger of Allah). (Referring to Hadhrat ‘Abbas), he said: You demanded your share from the property of your nephew,
Quote
Quote
and he (referring to ‘Ali) demanded a share on behalf of his wife from the property of her father.
Abu Bakr (Allah be pleased with him) said: The Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) had said:” We do not have any heirs; what we leave behind is (to be given in) charity.” So both of you thought him to be a liar, sinful, treacherous and dishonest.  And Allah knows that he was true, virtuous, well-guided and a follower of truth. When Abu Bakr passed away and (I have become) the successor of the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) and Abu Bakr (Allah be pleased with him), you thought me to be a liar, sinful, treacherous and dishonest”.

Read the FULL hadeeth to understand it, quoting parts of hadeeths shows the weakness of your arguments. This was an issue of Guardianship as explained by scholars and as apparent from the hadeeth itself.

Umar said: Both of you have come and your purpose is identical. You said: Entrust the property to us. I said: If you wish that I should entrust it to you, it will be on the condition that both of you will undertake to abide by a pledge made with Allah that you will use it in the same way as the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) used it. (Sahih Muslim Book 019, Number 4349)

We read in Sunan Nisai:

Umar said: I took control of it after Abu Bakr, and I did with it what he used to do. Then these two came to me and asked me to give it to them so that they could dispose of it as the Messenger of Allah disposed of it, and as Abu Bakr disposed of it, and as I disposed of it. So I gave it to them and I took promises from them that they would take proper care of it.( Sunan an-Nasa’i 4148, Grading Sahih)

when Ali and Abbas approached Abubakr, the usage of words is different, compared to when they came to Umar. When they approached Abubakr(ra) they asked for inheritance(miraas), whereas when they approached Umar during his rule, they didn’t ask for inheritance(miraas).

When they went to Abubakr:

فَجِئْتُمَا تَطْلُبُ مِيرَاثَكَ مِنَ ابْنِ أَخِيكَ وَيَطْلُبُ هَذَا مِيرَاثَ امْرَأَتِهِ مِنْ أَبِيهَا

“You both came to me, you asked to inherit your nephew and…”(Sahih Muslim).

When to came to Umar:

جِئْتُمَانِي وَكَلِمَتُكُمَا وَاحِدَةٌ، وَأَمْرُكُمَا جَمِيعٌ، جِئْتَنِي تَسْأَلُنِي نَصِيبَكَ مِنِ ابْنِ أَخِيكَ، وَأَتَانِي هَذَا يَسْأَلُنِي نَصِيبَ امْرَأَتِهِ مِنْ أَبِيهَا
“You came to me and you were in agreement (back then), you asked me for your share from your nephew…”(Sahih Bukhari)

Hence, there remains no doubt that, Abbas(ra) and Ali(ra) went to Umar(ra) with a different request than to Abubakr(ra). They went to Umar(ra) with the request to entrust them the property.

For detailed explanation, I suggest you to stop acting arrogantly and to read the answers to common Shiee arguments over this event:
https://youpuncturedtheark.wordpress.com/2014/09/11/8-sunni-answers-to-shiapens-article-on-fadak-and-inheritance-of-prophetsaw-chapter-eight/
« Last Edit: July 29, 2015, 04:33:59 PM by Aba AbdAllah »

Abu-jafar herz

Re: Most Recent Fadak Discussion on ShiaChat
« Reply #70 on: July 29, 2015, 04:31:23 PM »
Quote
Well this report falls right from the first narrator Husayn, since Ibn Hibban makes Tawtheeq of Majaheel, so the man is Majhool and the Hadith is weak. Give us the first guy's Tawtheeq then we'll discuss the other narrators.

He isn't Majhul, Ibn Hibban gives him tawtheeq and no one calls him majhul, his hadith are hassan.

Also this is irrelevant since there is another route without him in it from haakim

نا : الحاكم الوالد أبو محمد ، قال : ، حدثنا : عمر بن أحمد بن عثمان ببغداد شفاها ، قال : أخبرني : عمربن الحسن بن علي بن مالك قال : ، حدثنا : جعفر بن محمد الأحمسي قال : ، حدثنا : حسن بن حسين ، قال : ، حدثنا : أبو معمر سعيد بن خثيم ، وعلي بن القاسم الكندي ويحيى بن يعلى ، وعلي بن مسهر ، عن فضيل بن مرزوق ، عن عطية : ، عن أبي سعيد ، قال : لما نزلت : وآت ذا القربى حقه أعطى رسول الله (ص) فاطمة فدكا.

Regarding the second narrator, then the second narrator also has Ali ibn al-qaaslim, yahya ibn ya3la, and Ali ibn mashur narrating alongside with him from Fudhayl.

Yahya ibn maeen gives Fudhayl tawtheeq.

That just leaves us with Atiya al Awifa.


Quote
Oh sorry, let me correct that for you since you appear to have missed a part of what Ibn Hajar said.


Ibn Hajar: "Saduq, makes a lot of mistakes, he was a Shia who did Tadlees."


You Shia are such honest academic folks, very reliable in your selective quotatio

The "mistakes" you're mentioning was regards to tadlees genius.

muslim720

Re: Most Recent Fadak Discussion on ShiaChat
« Reply #71 on: July 29, 2015, 04:32:08 PM »
^
1.  The land that was given as Fay from Banu Nadeer is fadak.


2.  Tafseer Ibn katheer

قال تعالى: { فَلِلَّهِ وَلِلرَّسُولِ وَلِذِى ٱلْقُرْبَىٰ وَٱلْيَتَامَىٰ وَٱلْمَسَـٰكِينِ وَٱبْنِ ٱلسَّبِيلِ } إلى آخرها، والتي بعدها، فهذه مصارف أموال الفيء ووجوهه. قال الإمام أحمد: حدثنا سفيان، عن عمرو ومَعْمر، عن الزهري، عن مالك بن أوس بن الحدثان، عن عمر، رضي الله عنه قال: كانت أموال بني النضير مما أفاء الله على رسوله مما لو يوجف المسلمون عليه بخيل ولا ركاب، فكانت لرسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم خالصة،


1.  You just made a statement without backing it up with proof.  Thus far, you have only held on to the "Imam Ali [ra] was the best judge" argument.  You have failed to bring anything authentic which states that Fadak was gifted to Fatima [ra]. 

2.  It does not say that Fatima [ra] received Fadak as gift.  In fact, there is no mention of Fatima [ra]. 

Quote
Muslim720 if you're going to complain and cry like you did in the other thread, please just leave the conversation.

Of course you would want me to leave because you want to stretch this out to the point that the discussion loses its focus from Fadak to proving the authenticity of a narration that has nothing to do with Fadak.

Precisely the reason why you requested the moderators in ShiaChat to close the topic.
"Our coward ran from those in authority" - Iceman (admitting the truth regarding his 12th Imam)

Aba AbdAllah

Re: Most Recent Fadak Discussion on ShiaChat
« Reply #72 on: July 29, 2015, 04:39:09 PM »
Quote
Well this report falls right from the first narrator Husayn, since Ibn Hibban makes Tawtheeq of Majaheel, so the man is Majhool and the Hadith is weak. Give us the first guy's Tawtheeq then we'll discuss the other narrators.

He isn't Majhul, Ibn Hibban gives him tawtheeq and no one calls him majhul, his hadith are hassan.

Also this is irrelevant since there is another route without him in it from haakim

نا : الحاكم الوالد أبو محمد ، قال : ، حدثنا : عمر بن أحمد بن عثمان ببغداد شفاها ، قال : أخبرني : عمربن الحسن بن علي بن مالك قال : ، حدثنا : جعفر بن محمد الأحمسي قال : ، حدثنا : حسن بن حسين ، قال : ، حدثنا : أبو معمر سعيد بن خثيم ، وعلي بن القاسم الكندي ويحيى بن يعلى ، وعلي بن مسهر ، عن فضيل بن مرزوق ، عن عطية : ، عن أبي سعيد ، قال : لما نزلت : وآت ذا القربى حقه أعطى رسول الله (ص) فاطمة فدكا.

Regarding the second narrator, then the second narrator also has Ali ibn al-qaaslim, yahya ibn ya3la, and Ali ibn mashur narrating alongside with him from Fudhayl.

Yahya ibn maeen gives Fudhayl tawtheeq.

That just leaves us with Atiya al Awifa.


Quote
Oh sorry, let me correct that for you since you appear to have missed a part of what Ibn Hajar said.


Ibn Hajar: "Saduq, makes a lot of mistakes, he was a Shia who did Tadlees."


You Shia are such honest academic folks, very reliable in your selective quotatio

The "mistakes" you're mentioning was regards to tadlees genius.

Lol.. Please educate yourself about the basics of usool al hadeeth, instead of playing these silly word games.

And what Hani quoted puts an end to this report.

Quote
More importantly, the two experts abu Hatim and abu Zur`ah said in the book of `Ilal that this chain is Mursal and that the original report doesn't even have abu Sa`eed in it, it stops at `Atiyyah:

وَسألت أبي، وأبا زرعة، عَنْ حديث رَوَاهُ سَعِيدُ بْنُ خُثَيْمٍ، عَنْ فُضَيْلِ بْنِ مَرْزُوقٍ، عَنْ أَبِي سَعِيدٍ، قَالَ: لَمَّا نَزَلَتْ هَذِهِ الآيَةُ:ف وَآتِ ذَا الْقُرْبَى حَقَّهُق، دَعَا النَّبِيُّ  فَاطِمَةَ فَجَعَلَ لَهَا فَدَكًا. فقالا: إنما هو عَنْ عَطِيَّةَ، قَالَ: لما نزلت. مرسل. قَالَ: ليس فيه ذكر أَبِي سَعِيد قَالَ أَبُو زُرْعَةَ: حَدَّثَنَا أَبُو نعيم، عَنْ فضيل، عَنْ عطية فقط قَالَ: لما نزلت. ليس فيه ذكر أَبِي سَعِيد

Abu-jafar herz

Re: Most Recent Fadak Discussion on ShiaChat
« Reply #73 on: July 29, 2015, 04:45:47 PM »
Aba when you post something, post it in Arabic as well or do not partake in the conversation.

you said :

This Hadeeth should answer your confusion.

Quote
We read in Sahi muslim Bk 19, Number 4354: Ayesha(ra) said: So far as the charitable endowments at Medina were concerned, ‘Umar handed them over to ‘Ali and Abbas, but ‘Ali got the better of him. And as far as Khaibar and Fadak were concerned ‘Umar kept them with him, and said: These are the endowments of the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) (to the Umma). Their income was spent on the discharge of the responsibilities that devolved upon him on the emergencies he had to meet. And their management was to be in the hands of one who managed the affairs (of the Islamic State). The (sub)narrator said: They have been managed as such up to this day.

They wanted to be entrusted with the charitable endowments, for which they were disputing, since Ali(ra) got better of that.

The hadith is mistranslated extremely bad, and actually when we look at the hadith in Arabic the matter becomes clear...

 أَخْبَرَتْهُ أَنَّ فَاطِمَةَ بِنْتَ رَسُولِ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم سَأَلَتْ أَبَا بَكْرٍ بَعْدَ وَفَاةِ رَسُولِ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم أَنْ يَقْسِمَ لَهَا مِيرَاثَهَا مِمَّا تَرَكَ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم مِمَّا أَفَاءَ اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ ‏.‏ فَقَالَ لَهَا أَبُو بَكْرٍ إِنَّ رَسُولَ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم قَالَ ‏ "‏ لاَ نُورَثُ مَا تَرَكْنَا صَدَقَةٌ ‏"‏ ‏.‏ قَالَ وَعَاشَتْ بَعْدَ رَسُولِ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم سِتَّةَ أَشْهُرٍ وَكَانَتْ فَاطِمَةُ تَسْأَلُ أَبَا بَكْرٍ نَصِيبَهَا مِمَّا تَرَكَ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم مِنْ خَيْبَرَ وَفَدَكٍ وَصَدَقَتِهِ بِالْمَدِينَةِ فَأَبَى أَبُو بَكْرٍ عَلَيْهَا ذَلِكَ وَقَالَ لَسْتُ تَارِكًا شَيْئًا كَانَ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم يَعْمَلُ بِهِ إِلاَّ عَمِلْتُ بِهِ إِنِّي أَخْشَى إِنْ تَرَكْتُ شَيْئًا مِنْ أَمْرِهِ أَنْ أَزِيغَ فَأَمَّا صَدَقَتُهُ بِالْمَدِينَةِ فَدَفَعَهَا عُمَرُ إِلَى عَلِيٍّ وَعَبَّاسٍ فَغَلَبَهُ عَلَيْهَا عَلِيٌّ وَأَمَّا خَيْبَرُ وَفَدَكُ فَأَمْسَكَهُمَا عُمَرُ وَقَالَ هُمَا صَدَقَةُ رَسُولِ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم كَانَتَا لِحُقُوقِهِ الَّتِي تَعْرُوهُ وَنَوَائِبِهِ وَأَمْرُهُمَا إِلَى مَنْ وَلِيَ الأَمْرَ قَالَ فَهُمَا عَلَى ذَلِكَ إِلَى الْيَوْمِ ‏.‏

"Fatima asked abu bakr after the passing away of Rasullah [as] to give her her share of her inheritance from what the prophet [saw] left from what allah restored to him (2faa2 Allah, fay). So Abu bakr said to her : The propher said that we are not inherited from, and what we leave is charity.  Aisha said that after rasulallah passed away, 6 months later Fatima asked Abu bakr what is owed to her from what the prophet left of Khaybr, Fadak and the charities from it's city (Not Al-medina as your mistranslation says), so abu bakr rejected her this and said I will not leave what the prophet [saw] did with it.............. As for the sadaqah from the city (of fadak) then umar paid it to Ali and Abbas , and ali got the better of umar, and as for khaybr and fadak then umar held onto them saying these two are sadaqa (to the end of the hadith..................


So we see that

1- Ali (as) was still asking for inheritance even after abu bakr died.
2- Ali (as) asked for payment from the produce of the land and was given it.
3- Ali (as) asked for Fadak/Khaybr but was denied.


« Last Edit: July 29, 2015, 04:58:39 PM by Abu-jafar herz »

Abu-jafar herz

Re: Most Recent Fadak Discussion on ShiaChat
« Reply #74 on: July 29, 2015, 04:57:06 PM »
Quote
Lol.. Please educate yourself about the basics of usool al hadeeth, instead of playing these silly word games.

And what Hani quoted puts an end to this report.

Quote
More importantly, the two experts abu Hatim and abu Zur`ah said in the book of `Ilal that this chain is Mursal and that the original report doesn't even have abu Sa`eed in it, it stops at `Atiyyah:

وَسألت أبي، وأبا زرعة، عَنْ حديث رَوَاهُ سَعِيدُ بْنُ خُثَيْمٍ، عَنْ فُضَيْلِ بْنِ مَرْزُوقٍ، عَنْ أَبِي سَعِيدٍ، قَالَ: لَمَّا نَزَلَتْ هَذِهِ الآيَةُ:ف وَآتِ ذَا الْقُرْبَى حَقَّهُق، دَعَا النَّبِيُّ  فَاطِمَةَ فَجَعَلَ لَهَا فَدَكًا. فقالا: إنما هو عَنْ عَطِيَّةَ، قَالَ: لما نزلت. مرسل. قَالَ: ليس فيه ذكر أَبِي سَعِيد قَالَ أَبُو زُرْعَةَ: حَدَّثَنَا أَبُو نعيم، عَنْ فضيل، عَنْ عطية فقط قَالَ: لما نزلت. ليس فيه ذكر أَبِي سَعِيد

No, they are saying that his route from abu naeem to fudhayl to atiya to saeed al khudri is mursal where atiya doesn't mention saeed.


Also look at the way he talks about Abu hatim ibn hibban "The expert" Lol, he just told me not long ago that "Ibn hibban strengthens majaheel".

So hes an expert when you like??
« Last Edit: July 29, 2015, 05:06:18 PM by Abu-jafar herz »

Aba AbdAllah

Re: Most Recent Fadak Discussion on ShiaChat
« Reply #75 on: July 29, 2015, 05:18:41 PM »
Aba when you post something, post it in Arabic as well or do not partake in the conversation.

you said :

This Hadeeth should answer your confusion.

Quote
We read in Sahi muslim Bk 19, Number 4354: Ayesha(ra) said: So far as the charitable endowments at Medina were concerned, ‘Umar handed them over to ‘Ali and Abbas, but ‘Ali got the better of him. And as far as Khaibar and Fadak were concerned ‘Umar kept them with him, and said: These are the endowments of the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) (to the Umma). Their income was spent on the discharge of the responsibilities that devolved upon him on the emergencies he had to meet. And their management was to be in the hands of one who managed the affairs (of the Islamic State). The (sub)narrator said: They have been managed as such up to this day.

They wanted to be entrusted with the charitable endowments, for which they were disputing, since Ali(ra) got better of that.

The hadith is mistranslated extremely bad, and actually when we look at the hadith in Arabic the matter becomes clear...

 أَخْبَرَتْهُ أَنَّ فَاطِمَةَ بِنْتَ رَسُولِ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم سَأَلَتْ أَبَا بَكْرٍ بَعْدَ وَفَاةِ رَسُولِ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم أَنْ يَقْسِمَ لَهَا مِيرَاثَهَا مِمَّا تَرَكَ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم مِمَّا أَفَاءَ اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ ‏.‏ فَقَالَ لَهَا أَبُو بَكْرٍ إِنَّ رَسُولَ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم قَالَ ‏ "‏ لاَ نُورَثُ مَا تَرَكْنَا صَدَقَةٌ ‏"‏ ‏.‏ قَالَ وَعَاشَتْ بَعْدَ رَسُولِ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم سِتَّةَ أَشْهُرٍ وَكَانَتْ فَاطِمَةُ تَسْأَلُ أَبَا بَكْرٍ نَصِيبَهَا مِمَّا تَرَكَ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم مِنْ خَيْبَرَ وَفَدَكٍ وَصَدَقَتِهِ بِالْمَدِينَةِ فَأَبَى أَبُو بَكْرٍ عَلَيْهَا ذَلِكَ وَقَالَ لَسْتُ تَارِكًا شَيْئًا كَانَ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم يَعْمَلُ بِهِ إِلاَّ عَمِلْتُ بِهِ إِنِّي أَخْشَى إِنْ تَرَكْتُ شَيْئًا مِنْ أَمْرِهِ أَنْ أَزِيغَ فَأَمَّا صَدَقَتُهُ بِالْمَدِينَةِ فَدَفَعَهَا عُمَرُ إِلَى عَلِيٍّ وَعَبَّاسٍ فَغَلَبَهُ عَلَيْهَا عَلِيٌّ وَأَمَّا خَيْبَرُ وَفَدَكُ فَأَمْسَكَهُمَا عُمَرُ وَقَالَ هُمَا صَدَقَةُ رَسُولِ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم كَانَتَا لِحُقُوقِهِ الَّتِي تَعْرُوهُ وَنَوَائِبِهِ وَأَمْرُهُمَا إِلَى مَنْ وَلِيَ الأَمْرَ قَالَ فَهُمَا عَلَى ذَلِكَ إِلَى الْيَوْمِ ‏.‏

"Fatima asked abu bakr after the passing away of Rasullah [as] to give her her share of her inheritance from what the prophet [saw] left from what allah restored to him (2faa2 Allah, fay). So Abu bakr said to her : The propher said that we are not inherited from, and what we leave is charity.  Aisha said that after rasulallah passed away, 6 months later Fatima asked Abu bakr what is owed to her from what the prophet left of Khaybr, Fadak and the charities from it's city (Not Al-medina as your mistranslation says), so abu bakr rejected her this and said I will not leave what the prophet [saw] did with it.............. As for the sadaqah from the city (of fadak) then umar paid it to Ali and Abbas , and ali got the better of umar, and as for khaybr and fadak then umar held onto them saying these two are sadaqa (to the end of the hadith..................


So we see that

1- Ali (as) was still asking for inheritance even after abu bakr died.
2- Ali (as) asked for payment from the produce of the land and was given it.
3- Ali (as) asked for Fadak/Khaybr but was denied.
Brother are you alright? Please think before you answer.

The word there is Sadaqa not payment. Moreover this hadeeth exposes your desperate attempts.

ثُمَّ جِئْتَنِي أَنْتَ وَهَذَا وَأَنْتُمَا جَمِيعٌ وَأَمْرُكُمَا وَاحِدٌ فَقُلْتُمَا ادْفَعْهَا إِلَيْنَا فَقُلْتُ إِنْ شِئْتُمْ دَفَعْتُهَا إِلَيْكُمَا عَلَى أَنَّ عَلَيْكُمَا عَهْدَ اللَّهِ أَنْ تَعْمَلاَ فِيهَا بِالَّذِي كَانَ يَعْمَلُ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم فَأَخَذْتُمَاهَا بِذَلِكَ قَالَ أَكَذَلِكَ قَالاَ نَعَمْ ‏.‏ قَالَ ثُمَّ جِئْتُمَانِي لأَقْضِيَ بَيْنَكُمَا وَلاَ وَاللَّهِ لاَ أَقْضِي بَيْنَكُمَا بِغَيْرِ ذَلِكَ حَتَّى تَقُومَ السَّاعَةُ فَإِنْ عَجَزْتُمَا عَنْهَا فَرُدَّاهَا إِلَىَّ ‏.‏
Both of you have come and your purpose is identical. You said: Entrust the property to us. I said: If you wish that I should entrust it to you, it will be on the condition that both of you will undertake to abide by a pledge made with Allah that you will use it in the same way as the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) used it. So both of you got it. He said: Wasn't it like this? They said: Yes. He said: Then you have (again) come to me with the request that I should adjudge between you. No, by Allah. I will not give any other judgment except this until the arrival of the Doomsday. If you are unable to hold the property on this condition, return it to me.(Sahih Muslim Book 019, Number 4349)

Both of them asked that they be entrusted AND THEY WERE ENTRUSTED WITH IT,  So now are you going to say that they received Fadak and Khaybar? 

Then comes more interesting part which shatters your childish arguments. Umar said: If you are unable to hold the property on this condition, return it to me.

What did Umar ask to be returned? Fadak or payment?

Moin

Re: Most Recent Fadak Discussion on ShiaChat
« Reply #76 on: July 29, 2015, 05:44:47 PM »
Herz if you want we can discuss any of the following issue separately in different posts:
1. Existence of the wording أقضاكم علي in Ibn Majah and more broadly in the version of Abu Qilabah.
2. Authenticity of the wording أقضاكم علي in marfoo form.
2. Status of Atiyya as a hadith narrator.

Hani

Re: Most Recent Fadak Discussion on ShiaChat
« Reply #77 on: July 29, 2015, 08:18:26 PM »
Just quick comments since you never wrote anything useful.


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We can play the rijal and manuscript game all you like


Rijal is not a game, the fact that you said this shows your low-class level, your bias and your extremism.


Then like a twelve year old kid you copy and paste some list from a website thinking that it would impress us?


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وى أحمد عن أبي البختري عن علي عليه السّلام قال: «بعثني رسول الله صلّى الله عليه وآله وسلّم إلى اليمن وأنا حديث السن قال: قلت: تبعثني إلى قوم يكون بينهم أحداث ولا علم لي بالقضاء قال: انّ الله سيهدي لسانك ويثبت قلبك، قال: فما شككت في قضاء بين اثنين بعد»(1).
وروى الحاكم باسناده عن أنس بن مالك: «ان النبي صلّى الله عليه وآله وسلّم قال لعلي: أنت تبين لأمتي ما اختلفوا فيه بعدي»(2).
وروى الشبلنجي عن ابن مسعود، قال: «أفرض أهل المدينة وأقضاها علي»(3).
.
.
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You quote a cocktail of narrations as if we think that `Ali is a bad judge or sumthing, SubhanAllah what a grasshopper. Heck half of this list is the exact same report being repeated.



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You tried to attack the hadith from umar by saying that "he could of meant it only when abu bakr was dead" using ad hoc argument with no proof whatsoever that abu bakr was a better judge than Ali.


Already addressed this, He doesn't need to be a better judge, he can be a less better judge and still get it right.



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This hadith says that Allah guides the tongue of Ali when it comes to judgement, this is actually stronger than the hadith we've been trying to argue over.....


Also already addressed, he gave him more confidence to make his judgement since he was too scared due to his inexperience. Doesn't mean all his judgments will be right.


Man you repeat yourself a lot.



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And Lastly, Imam Ali [as] himself says in authentic narrations in your books that he there would not be anything in the book of Allah that he did not know the minute details of.


We believe `Ali was from the most knowledgeable men, and maybe even the most knowledgeable man in his own reign. Doesn't mean that others didn't know anything or weren't close or near to his level if not better in certain sciences. Ibn Mas`oud died before `Ali and it has been authentically reported from him that he said that nobody alive knew more about Allah's book than himself.



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This is coming from a person who thinks Allah has fingers, two right hands, two legs, eyes,a shin,comes and goes, laughs, descends like an elevator (Ibn taymiyya would demonstrate this with his break dancing on the pulpit).


I don't believe any of this which makes you a sinful liar. The Prophet (saw) said: The Muslim does not lie.



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Ibn Taymiyyah says that Zayd ibn thaabit was never known for inheritance laws. :) This is why he rejected the hadith I gave you, just for that reason....


Maybe he was maybe he wasn't, we can't be sure after 1,400 years. The narration you keep quoting says so though.


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it doesn't matter what additional details your hadith says, again, you can give me a hadith where umar makes shaytan run away, or uthman making the angels blush, it doesn't matter to me. What matters to me is that the statement "Ali is the best judge", is established.


It's not established.


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1- The case is simple, prophets don't inherit, this is a single piece of information its either true or not.
2- Ali is the best judge.
3- Ali persisted on his rejection even until umar's time.


1- There's two opinions: A- All prophets do not offer inheritance. B- Only our prophet did not wish to offer it. Either way doesn't work for  you.


2- Doesn't matter.


3- I say he didn't persist and he was only asking for guardianship of the seven gardens. Nor did he return the land to Fatimah's children.


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Are you kidding me, do you even know what you're talking about?


this is fadak.


The only land that was given as Fay from banu nadheer is Fadak.


I ain't kidding. Fadak, Sulalim, al-Wateeh and the areas between them are from the lands of Khaybar some of which were taken by force and others in peace.


As for what `Ali and al-`Abbas asked for, it was the seven gardens which were surrounded by walls and located in and around Madinah, they are: al-Dallal, Barqah, al-A`waf, al-Safiyah, al-Maythib, Husna and Mashrabat Umm Ibrahim. They are the Sawafi of banu al-Nadeer and some of them belonged to Mukhayreeq. Banu al-Nadeer were kicked out of Madinah after their treachery and their gardens remained and they made a deal to carry as much as they could from their possessions.


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Also look at the hadith..


Sahih Muslim Book 019, Number 4349


I know this Hadith and based on my reading this is what `Ali and al-`Abbas were asking for:



WHAT WERE AL-`ABBAS AND `ALI ASKING `UMAR FOR?


`Ali and al-`Abbas, when they came to `Umar, they were not asking for Fadak or Khaybar, they just asked for control of the Sadaqat of Madinah from the property of banu al-Nadeer(Jews) and Mukhayreeq as they believed they were at least entitled to do so.


We read in the books of Sunan:


عَلِيًّا، وَالْعَبَّاسَ رضي الله عنهما يختصمان فيما أفاء الله على رَسُولِ اللَّهِ مِنْ أَمْوَالِ بَنِي النَّضِير
[`Ali and al-`Abbas both disputed over what Allah has given as Fay’ to his messenger from the property of banu al-Nadeer.]


هُمَا يَخْتَصِمَانِ فِي الصَّوَافِي الَّتِي أَفَاءَ اللَّهُ عَلَى رَسُولِهِ مِنْ أَمْوَالِ بَنِي النَّضِير
[And they were disputing regarding the pure possessions that Allah granted as Fay’ to his messenger (saw) from bani al-Nadeer.]


Two years into his Khilafah, `Umar ibn al-Khattab out of good will towards them entrusted the Sadaqat of Madinah to both men since they were the heads of Ahlul-Bayt, he never gave it to them as inheritance, but just appointed them over it to care for it and benefit from it and to distribute its produce as the Prophet (saw) and Abu Bakr did before.


`Ali asked for his wife’s part and al-`Abbas asked for his nephew’s part, so `Umar reminded them of the Prophet’s (saw) Hadith, then said what we read in al-Bukhari:


قُلْتُ: إِنْ شِئْتُمَا دَفَعْتُهُ إِلَيْكُمَا عَلَى أَنَّ عَلَيْكُمَا عَهْدَ اللَّهِ وَمِيثَاقَهُ، لَتَعْمَلَانِ فِيهِ بِمَا عَمِلَ فِيهِ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ وَأَبُو بَكْرٍ وَمَا عَمِلْتُ فِيهِ مُنْذُ وَلِيتُ وَإِلَّا فَلَا تُكَلِّمَانِي، فَقُلْتُمَا ادْفَعْهُ إِلَيْنَا بِذَلِكَ، فَدَفَعْتُهُ إِلَيْكُمَا
[If you two wish, I hand it to you but you give me an oath by Allah to use it as the messenger of Allah (saw) and Abu Bakr used it and like I used it since I was given authority, otherwise never mention it to me ever again. Then you both said: “We accept, give it to us.” And I did.]


Al-`Abbas and `Ali later had a fight over how the money the land produces is divided, it appears as if al-`Abbas was angry at `Ali so much that he called him names, `Abbas might have thought `Ali took more than his need or that he used the money without consulting him, so they both went to `Umar asking him to divide it between them or to rule for one of them against the other.


We read what al-Daraqutni reported from Imam Isma`eel al-Qadi al-Maliki (199-282AH) in Tuhfat-ul-Ahwadhi Sharh-ul-Jami`:


لم يكن في الميراث إنما تنازعا في ولاية الصدقة وفي صرفها كيف تصرف
[Their dispute was not regarding inheritance, they only fought about controlling the Sadaqah and how it should be divided and spent.]


`Umar refused to give any other judgment and told them to return it if they’re unable to manage it.
He also said:


فَإِنْ عَجَزْتُمَا عَنْهُ فَادْفَعَا إِلَيَّ فَأَنَا أَكْفِيكُمَاهُ
[If you are unable to run this land, then return it to me and I shall save you the effort.]


It was later written that `Uthman ibn `Affan during his Khilafah convinced al-`Abbas to hand the entire land to `Ali and it remained with his children for many years.


In another narration from Musnad Ahmad, it says that ibn `Abbas convinced his father during the Khilafah of `Uthman to allow `Ali to control it on his own:


فلما استخلف عثمان اختصما إليه، فسكت عثمان ونكس رأسه. قال ابن عباس: فخشيت أن يأخذه أبي، فضربت بيدي بين كتفي العباس، فقلت: يا أبت أقسمت عليك إلا سلّمته
[When `Uthman received Khilafah, they both came and disputed in front of him and asked him to settle the matter, but he remained silent and lowered his head. Ibn `Abbas said: So I feared that he would take it (meaning the land) back from them, so I patted my hand on al-`Abbas’ chest and said: “O father, by Allah just hand it to him (meaning to `Ali).”]


As for the Fay’ of the lands of Khaybar including Fadak, `Umar held on to them and kept them well managed and properly taken care of as the Prophet (saw) used them for the urgent needs of the nation.



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The Arabic is more clear


 وَيَطْلُبُ هَذَا مِيرَاثَ امْرَأَتِهِ مِنْ أَبِيهَا


Umar : " And he is requesting his wife's inheritance from her father".


قَالَ أَبُو بَكْرٍ : أَنَا وَلِيُّ رَسُولِ اللَّهِ صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ ، فَجِئْتُمَا تَطْلُبُ مِيرَاثَكَ مِنَ ابْنِ أَخِيكَ وَيَطْلُبُ هَذَا مِيرَاثَ امْرَأَتِهِ مِنْ أَبِيهَا ، فَقَالَ أَبُو بَكْرٍ : قَالَ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ : مَا نُورَثُ مَا تَرَكْنَاهُ صَدَقَةٌ


This is referring to when they went to Abu Bakr, this is actual evidence that it wasn't a "gift" for if it were then `Umar would have instead said: "And you both went to Abu Bakr asking for your property" Instead he said: "Asking him for the inheritance of your nephew and you asking for the inheritance of your wife etc..."


Then after Abu Bakr's death, `Ali and `Abbas came to `Umar and they were united at that time and had no conflicts:


فَوَلِيتُهَا ثُمَّ جِئْتَنِي أَنْتَ وَهَذَا وَأَنْتُمَا جَمِيعٌ وَأَمْرُكُمَا وَاحِدٌ ، فَقُلْتُمَا : ادْفَعْهَا إِلَيْنَا ، فَقُلْتُ : إِنْ شِئْتُمْ دَفَعْتُهَا إِلَيْكُمَا ، عَلَى أَنَّ عَلَيْكُمَا عَهْدَ اللَّهِ


[So I took charge of it and then you both came to me united and told me: "Hand it to us." I said: "If you wish I will hand it to you..."]


Our interpretation is that they were asking to be placed in charge of those Amwal and felt that they had more right to be in charge due to their closeness, but not for inheritance. `Ali and `Abbas did receive it based on that and they both clearly confirmed the Hadith narrated by Abu Bakr in public and never objected at all.


Later `Ali and al-`Abbas had a fight over the land and returned to `Umar. The two weren't in agreement and asked `Umar to split it into two parts, `Ali felt he was entitled to a part due to his wife and `Abbas due to his closeness. `Umar felt like the two went overboard and that they were acting as if the land belonged to them, so he reminded them again of that narration and told them "Either you both manage it as previously agreed upon or I shall take it back" Meaning they didn't own it, nor was this a splitting of inheritance because there were other heirs who were also entitled for it.







« Last Edit: July 29, 2015, 08:51:28 PM by Hani »
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

Hani

Re: Most Recent Fadak Discussion on ShiaChat
« Reply #78 on: July 29, 2015, 08:47:25 PM »
You said:

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The land that was given as Fay from Banu Nadeer is fadak.


Tafseer Ibn katheer

قال تعالى: { فَلِلَّهِ وَلِلرَّسُولِ وَلِذِى ٱلْقُرْبَىٰ وَٱلْيَتَامَىٰ وَٱلْمَسَـٰكِينِ وَٱبْنِ ٱلسَّبِيلِ } إلى آخرها، والتي بعدها، فهذه مصارف أموال الفيء ووجوهه. قال الإمام أحمد: حدثنا سفيان، عن عمرو ومَعْمر، عن الزهري، عن مالك بن أوس بن الحدثان، عن عمر، رضي الله عنه قال: كانت أموال بني النضير مما أفاء الله على رسوله مما لو يوجف المسلمون عليه بخيل ولا ركاب، فكانت لرسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم خالصة،

Dude stop confusing yourself, who the heck told you that Fadak was the only Fay'!? Many lands were received as Fay' and others as Khums and Ghaneemah. al-Kateebah was a Khums for example, Shiqq and Nattah were divided between the Muslims, the Sawafi of Madinah were Fay' etc...

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He isn't Majhul, Ibn Hibban gives him tawtheeq and no one calls him majhul, his hadith are hassan.

Don't invent rules for me man please. Ibn Hibban's book is loaded with Majaheel whom he labels "Thiqah", if you think he's not Majhool then please offer me the opinions of early Hadithists about him, if you can't find any then that's because he's Majhool.

I thought you already knew basic rules such as that the Tawtheeq of Ibn Hibban or `Ijli amount to nothing.

I add, the only opinion you'll find is probably abu Hatim al-Razi saying he's layyin, another word for weak.

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Also this is irrelevant since there is another route without him in it from haakim

نا : الحاكم الوالد أبو محمد ، قال : ، حدثنا : عمر بن أحمد بن عثمان ببغداد شفاها ، قال : أخبرني : عمربن الحسن بن علي بن مالك قال : ، حدثنا : جعفر بن محمد الأحمسي قال : ، حدثنا : حسن بن حسين ، قال : ، حدثنا : أبو معمر سعيد بن خثيم ، وعلي بن القاسم الكندي ويحيى بن يعلى ، وعلي بن مسهر ، عن فضيل بن مرزوق ، عن عطية : ، عن أبي سعيد ، قال : لما نزلت : وآت ذا القربى حقه أعطى رسول الله (ص) فاطمة فدكا.

Regarding the second narrator, then the second narrator also has Ali ibn al-qaaslim, yahya ibn ya3la, and Ali ibn mashur narrating alongside with him from Fudhayl.

You mean al-Hakim al-Haskani? Here's a tip, NEVER say al-Hakim whithout clarifying who it is unless it's al-Hakim al-Nisabouri, otherwise it would be Tadlees (like the author of al-Muraja`aat does). Now According to your scholar Aqa Buzruq al-Tehrani the man was a Shiite.

آقا بزرالطهراني في الذريعة إلى تصانيف الشيعة ج 4 ص 194

The author of this book often quotes from the Rafidi Tafseer Furat so all in all his book Shawaahid al-Tanzil is not a Hujjah.

But anyway, I see that this chain contains `Umar bin al-Hasan bin `Ali and he's a liar according to al-Hakim, Daraqutni and al-Dhahabi.

Now on to `Atiyyah again

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The "mistakes" you're mentioning was regards to tadlees genius.

No genius, Ibn Hajar listed Tadlees separately genius. Otherwise he would have said "Katheer-ul-Tadlees".

« Last Edit: July 29, 2015, 08:52:16 PM by Hani »
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

Hani

Re: Most Recent Fadak Discussion on ShiaChat
« Reply #79 on: July 29, 2015, 09:11:46 PM »
Bro what the heck is this train-wreck!?

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The hadith is mistranslated extremely bad, and actually when we look at the hadith in Arabic the matter becomes clear...

 أَخْبَرَتْهُ أَنَّ فَاطِمَةَ بِنْتَ رَسُولِ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم سَأَلَتْ أَبَا بَكْرٍ بَعْدَ وَفَاةِ رَسُولِ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم أَنْ يَقْسِمَ لَهَا مِيرَاثَهَا مِمَّا تَرَكَ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم مِمَّا أَفَاءَ اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ ‏.‏ فَقَالَ لَهَا أَبُو بَكْرٍ إِنَّ رَسُولَ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم قَالَ ‏ "‏ لاَ نُورَثُ مَا تَرَكْنَا صَدَقَةٌ ‏"‏ ‏.‏ قَالَ وَعَاشَتْ بَعْدَ رَسُولِ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم سِتَّةَ أَشْهُرٍ وَكَانَتْ فَاطِمَةُ تَسْأَلُ أَبَا بَكْرٍ نَصِيبَهَا مِمَّا تَرَكَ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم مِنْ خَيْبَرَ وَفَدَكٍ وَصَدَقَتِهِ بِالْمَدِينَةِ فَأَبَى أَبُو بَكْرٍ عَلَيْهَا ذَلِكَ وَقَالَ لَسْتُ تَارِكًا شَيْئًا كَانَ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم يَعْمَلُ بِهِ إِلاَّ عَمِلْتُ بِهِ إِنِّي أَخْشَى إِنْ تَرَكْتُ شَيْئًا مِنْ أَمْرِهِ أَنْ أَزِيغَ فَأَمَّا صَدَقَتُهُ بِالْمَدِينَةِ فَدَفَعَهَا عُمَرُ إِلَى عَلِيٍّ وَعَبَّاسٍ فَغَلَبَهُ عَلَيْهَا عَلِيٌّ وَأَمَّا خَيْبَرُ وَفَدَكُ فَأَمْسَكَهُمَا عُمَرُ وَقَالَ هُمَا صَدَقَةُ رَسُولِ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم كَانَتَا لِحُقُوقِهِ الَّتِي تَعْرُوهُ وَنَوَائِبِهِ وَأَمْرُهُمَا إِلَى مَنْ وَلِيَ الأَمْرَ قَالَ فَهُمَا عَلَى ذَلِكَ إِلَى الْيَوْمِ ‏.‏

"Fatima asked abu bakr after the passing away of Rasullah [as] to give her her share of her inheritance from what the prophet [saw] left from what allah restored to him (2faa2 Allah, fay). So Abu bakr said to her : The propher said that we are not inherited from, and what we leave is charity.  Aisha said that after rasulallah passed away, 6 months later Fatima asked Abu bakr what is owed to her from what the prophet left of Khaybr, Fadak and the charities from it's city (Not Al-medina as your mistranslation says), so abu bakr rejected her this and said I will not leave what the prophet [saw] did with it.............. As for the sadaqah from the city (of fadak) then umar paid it to Ali and Abbas , and ali got the better of umar, and as for khaybr and fadak then umar held onto them saying these two are sadaqa (to the end of the hadith..................


So we see that

1- Ali (as) was still asking for inheritance even after abu bakr died.
2- Ali (as) asked for payment from the produce of the land and was given it.
3- Ali (as) asked for Fadak/Khaybr but was denied.

It's actually your translation which is faulty ya abuJay. When they say "Sadaqatihi bil-Madinah" this always refers to the Sawafi that he left as Sadaqah in Madinah, I don't know how the heck you invented this ((Fadak and the charities from it's city)) if anything it shows that you haven't opened a book of Amwal and Tarikah in your life nor do you even know what the Prophet (saw)left behind. The property gifted by the Jewish man in addition to the Fay' taken from Banu al-Nadeer are referred to as "Sadaqat Rasul-Allah fil-Madinah" and most were possessions of Salam bin Mushkim al-Nudayri.

The reason people called them Sadaqat was because he made them a Waqf and offered them as charity.

The Arabic says that she asked for the Tarikah, Tarikah is everything left behind, then it specifies what Tarikah she meant, it says "What Rasul-Allah (saw) left behind from Khaybar and Fadak as well as his Sadaqat in al-Madinah."

Now as for the tree hasty conclusions:

1- No he wasn't and this is written nowhere in the Arabic text you provided above.

2- No he didn't and this is written nowhere in the Arabic text you provided above.

3- No he didn't and this is written nowhere in the ARabic text you provided above.
« Last Edit: July 29, 2015, 09:13:52 PM by Hani »
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

 

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