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Silence of Muawiya(ra) against Ali(ra) being slandered

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Muhammad Tazin

Silence of Muawiya(ra) against Ali(ra) being slandered
« on: May 11, 2019, 10:20:22 AM »
As salamu alaikum brothers,

According to what I have known till yesterday, I have known that, there are no acceptable narration about Muawiya(ra) himself slandering Ali(ra); except a weak narration stated in Al BIDAYA through Ibn Ishaq , which is clear to me.

Also, Muawiya(ra) kept his promises made to Hasan(ra) during peace treaty, by providing him the wealth demanded. (Al Bidaya 41h, 49h incidents- for reference)
I have also made a post earlier about this-
http://forum.twelvershia.net/sahabah-ahlulbayt/gifts-from-muawiya-to-ahle-bayt/msg16432/#msg16432

However, recently, I have found a narration in Al Kamil 272/3 where , it says that during the treaty, Hasan(ra) asked that Ali(ra) should not be abused, but MUawiya(ra) ignored this demand, even Hasan(ra) asked that at least Ali(ra) must not be cursed in front of him, but Muawiya(ra) also failed to keep this word also-
وَكَانَ الَّذِي طَلَبَ الْحَسَنُ مِنْ مُعَاوِيَةَ أَنْ يُعْطِيَهُ مَا فِي بَيْتِ مَالِ الْكُوفَةِ، وَمَبْلَغُهُ خَمْسَةُ آلَافِ أَلْفٍ، وَخَرَاجَ دَارَابَجِرْدَ مِنْ فَارِسَ، وَأَنْ لَا يَشْتُمَ عَلِيًّا، فَلَمْ يُجِبْهُ عَنِ الْكَفِّ عَنْ شَتْمِ عَلِيٍّ، فَطَلَبَ أَنْ لَا يَشْتُمَ وَهُوَ يَسْمَعُ، فَأَجَابَهُ إِلَى ذَلِكَ ثُمَّ لَمْ يَفِ لَهُ بِهِ أَيْضًا، وَأَمَّا خَرَاجُ دَارَابَجِرْدَ فَإِنَّ أَهْلَ الْبَصْرَةِ مَنَعُوهُ مِنْهُ وَقَالُوا: هُوَ فَيْئُنَا لَا نُعْطِيهِ أَحَدًا، وَكَانَ مَنْعُهُمْ بِأَمْرِ مُعَاوِيَةَ أَيْضًا.
https://library.islamweb.net/newlibrary/display_book.php?flag=1&bk_no=126&ID=530

This stands quite different from other narrations about Muawiya(ra). because he was sad after hearing the noews of death of Ali(ra) and said that this ummah lost a great part of it's knowledge etc
«ويحك، إنما أبكي لما فقد الناس من حلمه و علمه و فضله و سوابقه و خيره»

Noor-us-Sunnah

Re: Silence of Muawiya(ra) against Ali(ra) being slandered
« Reply #1 on: May 11, 2019, 11:52:16 PM »
As salamu alaikum brothers,

According to what I have known till yesterday, I have known that, there are no acceptable narration about Muawiya(ra) himself slandering Ali(ra); except a weak narration stated in Al BIDAYA through Ibn Ishaq , which is clear to me.

Also, Muawiya(ra) kept his promises made to Hasan(ra) during peace treaty, by providing him the wealth demanded. (Al Bidaya 41h, 49h incidents- for reference)
I have also made a post earlier about this-
http://forum.twelvershia.net/sahabah-ahlulbayt/gifts-from-muawiya-to-ahle-bayt/msg16432/#msg16432

However, recently, I have found a narration in Al Kamil 272/3 where , it says that during the treaty, Hasan(ra) asked that Ali(ra) should not be abused, but MUawiya(ra) ignored this demand, even Hasan(ra) asked that at least Ali(ra) must not be cursed in front of him, but Muawiya(ra) also failed to keep this word also-
وَكَانَ الَّذِي طَلَبَ الْحَسَنُ مِنْ مُعَاوِيَةَ أَنْ يُعْطِيَهُ مَا فِي بَيْتِ مَالِ الْكُوفَةِ، وَمَبْلَغُهُ خَمْسَةُ آلَافِ أَلْفٍ، وَخَرَاجَ دَارَابَجِرْدَ مِنْ فَارِسَ، وَأَنْ لَا يَشْتُمَ عَلِيًّا، فَلَمْ يُجِبْهُ عَنِ الْكَفِّ عَنْ شَتْمِ عَلِيٍّ، فَطَلَبَ أَنْ لَا يَشْتُمَ وَهُوَ يَسْمَعُ، فَأَجَابَهُ إِلَى ذَلِكَ ثُمَّ لَمْ يَفِ لَهُ بِهِ أَيْضًا، وَأَمَّا خَرَاجُ دَارَابَجِرْدَ فَإِنَّ أَهْلَ الْبَصْرَةِ مَنَعُوهُ مِنْهُ وَقَالُوا: هُوَ فَيْئُنَا لَا نُعْطِيهِ أَحَدًا، وَكَانَ مَنْعُهُمْ بِأَمْرِ مُعَاوِيَةَ أَيْضًا.
https://library.islamweb.net/newlibrary/display_book.php?flag=1&bk_no=126&ID=530

This stands quite different from other narrations about Muawiya(ra). because he was sad after hearing the noews of death of Ali(ra) and said that this ummah lost a great part of it's knowledge etc
«ويحك، إنما أبكي لما فقد الناس من حلمه و علمه و فضله و سوابقه و خيره»

Please post its Sanad(chain), so that it could be verified.

Muhammad Tazin

Re: Silence of Muawiya(ra) against Ali(ra) being slandered
« Reply #2 on: May 13, 2019, 09:36:53 AM »
No chain of this narration is provided in the printed copy or library.islamweb, shamela reading site of Al Kamil
As I see, in Al Kamil incidents are presented in this book without chain

T110

Re: Silence of Muawiya(ra) against Ali(ra) being slandered
« Reply #3 on: May 13, 2019, 01:45:08 PM »
The reason for this contradiction which you so fortunately have come across is simply a result of mass fabrications at the hands of those in power. Ever heard of the saying "Victor writes the history", this is simply what happened after the death of the Prophet (SAWW). Now as for contradictions there is a vast cess-pool of these across sunni literature but in an attempt to brush these under the carpet, a very cunning one I must say, the sunni layman are instructed by their clergy to not give precedence to their logic which recognises these inconsistencies and to just blindly affirm the literature. Naql over Aql as they say. Now watch the space below, it will be filled with attacks at me and the shia faith but no one will both to give you a decent and objective answer to your rather genuine query.   

muslim720

Re: Silence of Muawiya(ra) against Ali(ra) being slandered
« Reply #4 on: May 13, 2019, 02:58:26 PM »
Now as for contradictions there is a vast cess-pool of these across sunni literature

A more detrimental example would be Imams (ra), tasked with guidance, giving contradictory rulings in two sahih hadiths.

Quote
Now watch the space below, it will be filled with attacks at me and the shia faith but no one will both to give you a decent and objective answer to your rather genuine query.   

A genuine answer to a genuine query requires the basics like chain of transmission, as some brothers have already requested.

Quote
Naql over Aql as they say

Does your aql go on vacation when it accepts Nahjul Balagha, a book with zero chain for all the reports between its covers?
"Our coward ran from those in authority" - Iceman (admitting the truth regarding his 12th Imam)

T110

Re: Silence of Muawiya(ra) against Ali(ra) being slandered
« Reply #5 on: May 14, 2019, 03:43:28 PM »
A more detrimental example would be Imams (ra), tasked with guidance, giving contradictory rulings in two sahih hadiths.
Let's not go there, there are countless examples of inconsistencies across the fiqhi rulings of the 4 caliphs, and these are blindly, better desperately, justified by the made up concept that the general consensus in fiqh of the great caliphs is infallible because of some 'sahih' hadith that exists of the Prophet affirming this notion. Yet the concept of infallibility is laughed at when the Shias employ it. How pathetic!!!

Quote

A genuine answer to a genuine query requires the basics like chain of transmission, as some brothers have already  requested.
The reports are 'sahih' by the sunni standards and I'll be willing to prove it myself if the OP fails to do so or doesn't bother.
Quote

Does your aql go on vacation when it accepts Nahjul Balagha, a book with zero chain for all the reports between its covers?
Don't worry pal, it is authentic by ours standards and sciences. :D :D

muslim720

Re: Silence of Muawiya(ra) against Ali(ra) being slandered
« Reply #6 on: May 14, 2019, 04:17:34 PM »
Let's not go there, there are countless examples of inconsistencies across the fiqhi rulings of the 4 caliphs

Why not?  The Rightly Guided Caliphs (ra), to us, are not infallible whereas to you, the Imams (ra) are infallible.  I want to know how can those tasked with guidance and only guidance give two answers which diametrically oppose each other?

Or are we to avoid this discussion because it will prove how ignorant you are when it comes to your own ideology?

Quote
and these are blindly, better desperately, justified by the made up concept that the general consensus in fiqh of the great caliphs is infallible because of some 'sahih' hadith that exists of the Prophet affirming this notion.

In the last 48 hours, your mouth has issued more checks than your @$$ can cash.  Prove to us that we consider the "great Caliphs" (ra) to be infallible.  And I am still waiting for you to quote me the narration in Sahihain which comes by way of Umar ibn Sa'ad.

Quote
The reports are 'sahih' by the sunni standards and I'll be willing to prove it myself if the OP fails to do so or doesn't bother.

How do you know when the chain for it has not been presented?  Or, are you saying that you have the chain but won't share it?  Ignorant or deceitful liar, pick your own identity for you cannot be anything apart from these two.

Quote
Don't worry pal, it is authentic by ours standards and sciences. :D :D

How did you authenticate a book and gave it the title "Brother of the Qur'an" without its content having a chain of transmission?  You criticize our ahaadith; do you know the value of a report (in our school) - let alone a book - for which there is no sanad?  We flush it down the toilet!
« Last Edit: May 14, 2019, 04:19:18 PM by muslim720 »
"Our coward ran from those in authority" - Iceman (admitting the truth regarding his 12th Imam)

Noor-us-Sunnah

Re: Silence of Muawiya(ra) against Ali(ra) being slandered
« Reply #7 on: May 14, 2019, 04:24:27 PM »
The reason for this contradiction which you so fortunately have come across is simply a result of mass fabrications at the hands of those in power. Ever heard of the saying "Victor writes the history", this is simply what happened after the death of the Prophet (SAWW). Now as for contradictions there is a vast cess-pool of these across sunni literature but in an attempt to brush these under the carpet, a very cunning one I must say, the sunni layman are instructed by their clergy to not give precedence to their logic which recognises these inconsistencies and to just blindly affirm the literature. Naql over Aql as they say. Now watch the space below, it will be filled with attacks at me and the shia faith but no one will both to give you a decent and objective answer to your rather genuine query.   

Shia scholar  al-sadooq’s book amali:

حدثنا محمد بن موسى بن المتوكل (رضي الله عنه)، قال: حدثنا محمد بن يحيى العطار، قال: حدثنا محمد بن الحسين بن أبي الخطاب، قال: حدثنا محمد بن سنان، عن المفضل بن عمر، عن يونس بن ظبيان، عن سعد بن طريف، عن الاصبغ ابن نباتة، قال: دخل ضرار بن ضمرة النهشلي على معاوية بن أبي سفيان، فقال له: صف لي عليا. قال: أو تعفيني. فقال: لا، بل صفه لي. فقال له ضرار: رحم الله عليا، كان والله فينا كأحدنا، يدنينا إذا أتيناه، ويجيبنا إذا سألناه، ويقربنا إذا زرناه، لا يغلق له دوننا باب، ولا يحجبنا عنه حاجب، ونحن والله مع تقريبه لنا وقربه منا، لا نكلمه لهيبته، ولا نبتديه لعظمته، فإذا تبسم فعن مثل اللؤلؤ المنظوم. فقال المعاوية: زدني من صفته. فقال ضرار: رحم الله عليا، كان والله طويل السهاد، قليل الرقاد، يتلو كتاب الله آناء الليل وأطراف النهار، ويجود لله بمهجته، ويبوء إليه بعبرته، لا تغلق له الستور، ولا يدخر عنا البدور، ولا يستلين الاتكاء، ولا يستخشن الجفاء، ولو رأيته إذ مثل في محرابه، وقد أرخى الليل سدوله، وغارت نجومه، وهو قابض على لحيته، يتململ تململ السليم (1)، ويبكي بكاء الحزين، وهو يقول: يا دنيا، إلي تعرضت، أم إلي تشوقت، هيهات هيهات لا حاجة لي فيك، أبنتك ثلاثا لا رجعة لي عليك. ثم يقول: واه واه لبعد السفر، وقلة الزاد، وخشونة الطريق. قال: فبكى معاوية، وقال: حسبك يا ضرار، كذلك كان والله علي، رحم الله أبا الحسن (

Translation: Dirar bin dhamrah al nahshali entered upon Muwaiya so muwaiya asked him to describe Ali to him. Dirar said: please pardon me from it. Muwaiya said but please do. So he said: May Allah have mercy upon Ali, he was amongst us as one of us, he brought us nearer if we came to him and answered us if we asked him and treats us well if we visited him. His door is not closed for us and no one stays as a barrier between us and him. And we, despite his closeness to us and his making us close to him, do not speak to him for his greatness and presence. Whenever he smiles it is like pearls.

Then Muwaiya said: tell me more. Dirar said: May Allah have mercy upon Ali, he was staying up late at night. Did not sleep much, he read the book of Allah in the middle of the night and the edges of the day. He was generous with his eyes (tears) and expressive in returning to his Lord. And he would not close a door, nor find soft the leaning nor find hard being alone. If you find him in his mihrab, deep in the night, you find him touching his beard, crying the crying of a sad person and says: O this life, to me you presented yourself or did you miss me. I have no need in you. Then he says: Oh Oh for the distance of travel and the lack of provisions and the harshness of the road. Then Mu’awiyah weeped, and said: Sufficient is that O Dirar, verily, by Allah, that is how Ali was. May Allah shower Abu Al-Hasan with Mercy” [ Al-Amali by Al-Sadooq 2nd tradition in The 91st Majlis page 724]

Muhammad Tazin

Re: Silence of Muawiya(ra) against Ali(ra) being slandered
« Reply #8 on: May 14, 2019, 08:42:00 PM »
The reason for this contradiction...I must say, the sunni layman are instructed by their clergy to not give precedence to their logic which recognises these inconsistencies and to just blindly affirm the literature. Naql over Aql as they say.

To show my AQL, I have already presented a collection of narrations, showing the relation between Muawiya(ra) and AHle Bayt, which supports the reality.
On the Contrary, Shia priests make you believe that, in spite of everything, there was hatred and enmity ; which kept inside the heart of Ahle Bayt as a form of TAQIYA!!!!!!!!!!

However, the narration I have posted does not say that Muwaiya(ra) himself uttered any bad word/slander against ALI(Ra)

And the funny part, you are trying to say that, Allah made your claimed persons(11 imam) Imams, and then snatched that  from them and made the "Villains" victorious !!!  ;D ;D


 

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