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the non incident of pen and paper- Rasululah (saw) fainted?

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Furkan

the non incident of pen and paper- Rasululah (saw) fainted?
« on: March 30, 2015, 10:51:25 PM »
Assalamu Alaykum my muslim brothers and sisters.

So recently a shiite started (AGAIN) to discuss with me about the non incident of pen and paper. ( I know, very annoying right !!!)

I went through many narrations about this incident and all of them are 95 percent the same. The thing is, I remember I had read  some months ago a version where it is mentioned that rasululah (saw) fainted and AFTER that happened, hazrat Umar (ra) said against the others around the following : "Quran is sufficient for us".

Now I can't find it in sunni sources. I tried using the searchtool on TS already, but no succes :/

The funny part is that I did find a shiite version in Kitab Al Irshad by Al Mufeed where rasululah (saw) fainted. On websites you will get as reference for this version:  Kitab Al Irshad by Al Mufeed p.130 whereas on an online pdf version, I found this incident on page 126 and 127.

(plz don't kill me for re opening this simple, old issue)

Before Qazî Mihemed, President of the first kurdish Republic Mahabad was hanged the iranian judge asked:

“last words?”

Qazî: “I thank Allah: even in death he put my shoes above your heads”

Husayn

Re: the non incident of pen and paper- Rasululah (saw) fainted?
« Reply #1 on: March 30, 2015, 11:25:22 PM »
Incident of the pen-and-paper can be summed up as:

Your teacher has been teaching your class that 1+1 = 2 your whole life.

You are about to graduate, and he tells you, "Get me a pen and paper and I'll write down for you what 1+1 equals" and one person replies "No no, that's not necessary, I understand it". And then others who havent't been paying as much attention say "No let him write it down, I still don't get it." or "Let him write it down so we don't forget".

And then your teacher gets annoyed and tells everyone to leave.

----

The Prophet (saw) had taught the companions all that they needed to know so as to not go astray. They knew that they must stick to the Qur'an.

When the Prophet (saw) was on his deathbed, he told them, "Get me a pen and paper and I'll write something down for you after which you won't go astray". The confident and learned companions thought "No need, we have the book of Allah (swt)" - in other words "No need, you've taught us everything, and we are not going to forget".

Some others whose faith and confidence was weaker disagreed, an argument ensued, and the Prophet (saw) told them all to leave.

Ofcourse, being satisfied with that answer of 'Umar (ra), he never mentioned the issue again.
إن يتبعون إلا الظن وما تهوى الأنفس

Furkan

Re: the non incident of pen and paper- Rasululah (saw) fainted?
« Reply #2 on: March 30, 2015, 11:35:45 PM »
Barak Allahu feek brother Husayn.

To me this issue is already clear in general (no doubts) but as mentioned in the topic, the version where rasululah (saw) fainted is still needed since the shiite asks for this in particular. He dismisses explanations of scholars about this issue btw (unless it's supported by evidences from quran en sunna).
Before Qazî Mihemed, President of the first kurdish Republic Mahabad was hanged the iranian judge asked:

“last words?”

Qazî: “I thank Allah: even in death he put my shoes above your heads”

Husayn

Re: the non incident of pen and paper- Rasululah (saw) fainted?
« Reply #3 on: March 30, 2015, 11:38:19 PM »
Barak Allahu feek brother Husayn.

To me this issue is already clear in general (no doubts) but as mentioned in the topic, the version where rasululah (saw) fainted is still needed since the shiite asks for this in particular. He dismisses explanations of scholars about this issue btw (unless it's supported by evidences from quran en sunna).

Yeah I know - if you've been involved in polemics this issue should be very clear to you.

I just wanted to get my 2 cents in.

As for that hadith - I don't believe I've come across, I'll do a search insha Allah.
إن يتبعون إلا الظن وما تهوى الأنفس

Hadrami

Re: the non incident of pen and paper- Rasululah (saw) fainted?
« Reply #4 on: March 30, 2015, 11:41:13 PM »
Barak Allahu feek brother Husayn.

He dismisses explanations of scholars about this issue btw (unless it's supported by evidences from quran en sunna).

Speaking of evidence, Rasulullah shallallahu alaihi wassalam evidently didnt see it necessary to write it down, because he didnt write it later that thursday or friday or saturday or sunday or part of monday. Unless that shia wants to make up story that Umar RA stayed in his room, kept the pen & paper for himself for those several days :D

Furkan

Re: the non incident of pen and paper- Rasululah (saw) fainted?
« Reply #5 on: March 30, 2015, 11:50:43 PM »
The shiite also says that Rasululah (saw) did write a letter the next days and handed it ali fatima etc...

lol, they just come up with everything. Especially when I browsed through al mufeed's book, I came across so many OBVIOUS fabrications about sahaba . For example: Rasululah calling Abu Bakr (into his house) when rasululah was very sick) and when abu bakr went inside, Rasululah turned away his face.

I say: why the heck would someone invite you to his house and then don't look at your face ?
Before Qazî Mihemed, President of the first kurdish Republic Mahabad was hanged the iranian judge asked:

“last words?”

Qazî: “I thank Allah: even in death he put my shoes above your heads”

Hadrami

Re: the non incident of pen and paper- Rasululah (saw) fainted?
« Reply #6 on: March 30, 2015, 11:58:06 PM »
The shiite also says that Rasululah (saw) did write a letter the next days and handed it ali fatima etc...

maybe because it contains the command for ali RA to be the leader of the house, to look after his wife & family etc, otherwise it will be shown to everyone right? :) Besides, don't they say that all companions have pledged allegiance in Ghadir in front of 100 thousand people? What's the use of piece of paper if everyone already knows about it? Did Umar RA not giving him pen & paper makes everyone forget what happen in Ghadir? Or maybe what happened in Ghadir is not about leadership? Shia have to make up their mind.

Shia scholars, one of the most creative bedtime story writers always miss the small damning details :D

Furkan

Re: the non incident of pen and paper- Rasululah (saw) fainted?
« Reply #7 on: March 31, 2015, 12:01:13 AM »
Shiites say that rasululah repeated this "will" multiple times since ghadeer kum,

(hopeless shia :p)
Before Qazî Mihemed, President of the first kurdish Republic Mahabad was hanged the iranian judge asked:

“last words?”

Qazî: “I thank Allah: even in death he put my shoes above your heads”

Husayn

Re: the non incident of pen and paper- Rasululah (saw) fainted?
« Reply #8 on: March 31, 2015, 12:07:42 AM »
The shiite also says that Rasululah (saw) did write a letter the next days and handed it ali fatima etc...

Yes, because according to Shiism, Islam was revealed only for the Prophet (saw)'s family - specifically 'Ali, Fatima, Hassan and Husayn (rathi Allahu 'anhum).

Rasul Allah (saw) came to establish a dynasty on earth.

They accuse Bani Ummayah of claiming that Rasul Allah (saw) only came to establish mulk for Bani Hashim...well, according to Shia beliefs this is an accurate statement.
إن يتبعون إلا الظن وما تهوى الأنفس


Furkan

Re: the non incident of pen and paper- Rasululah (saw) fainted?
« Reply #10 on: March 31, 2015, 12:17:31 AM »
I will watch it tomorow, though textual evidence is very much appreciated since I sent those texts to the shii (he doesn't know english, he just looks for the references and searches it up in english).
Before Qazî Mihemed, President of the first kurdish Republic Mahabad was hanged the iranian judge asked:

“last words?”

Qazî: “I thank Allah: even in death he put my shoes above your heads”

Hadrami

Re: the non incident of pen and paper- Rasululah (saw) fainted?
« Reply #11 on: March 31, 2015, 12:35:32 AM »
Shiites say that rasululah repeated this "will" multiple times since ghadeer kum,

(hopeless shia :p)


ah ok, so theres several papers with this so called will and shia still complain & make a big deal about 1.

Still doesnt explain why it needs to be written down, not to mention several times, if shia say all companions have already pledged allegiance to Ali in ghadir

Furkan

Re: the non incident of pen and paper- Rasululah (saw) fainted?
« Reply #12 on: March 31, 2015, 12:38:40 AM »
The problem is not the issue of the paper, it's the issue of rawafid doing takfir on Umar and accusing him of rejection.
Before Qazî Mihemed, President of the first kurdish Republic Mahabad was hanged the iranian judge asked:

“last words?”

Qazî: “I thank Allah: even in death he put my shoes above your heads”

Hani

Re: the non incident of pen and paper- Rasululah (saw) fainted?
« Reply #13 on: March 31, 2015, 01:11:16 AM »
My new summarized reply to this is the following,

Tell the Shia who is arguing that we have two different explanations for this Hadith.

1-Sunni explanation: `Umar wished for Rasul-Allah (saw) to rest out of fear for his health and assured him that the nation knows that it must seek its guidance from Allah's book as he (saw) had always taught them.

2-Shia explanation: `Umar tried to forcefully prevent the Prophet (saw) from guiding the people, he insulted him, disobeyed him and raised his voice at him.

Now neither we or the Shia were eye witnesses of this event so that we can get the full picture, the eye witness is the only companion who narrated this event, `Abdullah ibn `Abbas.

The Prophet (saw) died after only a couple of days, SO

If the Sunni version is correct, then the Prophet (saw) must have been happy and pleased with `Umar ibn al-Khattab when he died.

However, if the Shia interpretation is correct, then the Prophet (saw) must have been angry and displeased with `Umar ibn al-Khattab when he died.

Who can we settle this? Well, it can be settled by the same man who witnessed the event with his own eyes and understood it in its proper context, `Abdullah ibn `Abbas.

`Abdullah ibn `Abbas tells `Umar ibn al-Khattab while the latter was on his deathbed in the authentic report: "And the Prophet (saw) had died while being pleased with you O `Umar."

End of story.
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

Sheikh

Re: the non incident of pen and paper- Rasululah (saw) fainted?
« Reply #14 on: March 31, 2015, 01:14:42 AM »
What do Shiites think that RasulAllah (saws) was going to write anyways?  To follow the Qur'an and Ahl al-Bayt?  Didn't he already do this in Hadeeth al-Thaqalayn?  So it really is even less of an issue for Shiites and yet they are the ones that keep emphasizing this incident. 

Furkan

Re: the non incident of pen and paper- Rasululah (saw) fainted?
« Reply #15 on: March 31, 2015, 01:18:43 AM »
Hani, can you give me references (if possible also the version with faint).
Before Qazî Mihemed, President of the first kurdish Republic Mahabad was hanged the iranian judge asked:

“last words?”

Qazî: “I thank Allah: even in death he put my shoes above your heads”

Furkan

Re: the non incident of pen and paper- Rasululah (saw) fainted?
« Reply #16 on: March 31, 2015, 02:02:22 AM »
The shiite showed me this (http://fatwa.islamweb.net/fatwa/index.php?page=showfatwa&Option=FatwaId&Id=113249) and told me that Imam An Nawawi commented on this hadith without any supporting evidence from quran and sunnah (to explain Umar's statement and the quarrel).

Since I don't know arabic, I am clueless.
Before Qazî Mihemed, President of the first kurdish Republic Mahabad was hanged the iranian judge asked:

“last words?”

Qazî: “I thank Allah: even in death he put my shoes above your heads”

Khaled

Re: the non incident of pen and paper- Rasululah (saw) fainted?
« Reply #17 on: March 31, 2015, 02:11:30 AM »
The shiite showed me this (http://fatwa.islamweb.net/fatwa/index.php?page=showfatwa&Option=FatwaId&Id=113249) and told me that Imam An Nawawi commented on this hadith without any supporting evidence from quran and sunnah (to explain Umar's statement and the quarrel).

Since I don't know arabic, I am clueless.

Akhi, how can you quote evidence from the Qur'an and Sunnah to explain this incident?  You want Imam an-Nawawi رحمه الله to quote an ayah from the Qur'an telling you who was right and who was wrong?  Why doesn't your friend quote a verse from the Qur'an or a Hadeeth to explain it?
كلُّ سُلامى من الناس عليه صدقة كلَّ يوم تطلع فيه الشمس، تَعدلُ بين اثنين صدقة، وتعين الرَّجل في دابَّته فتحمله عليها أو ترفع له عليها متاعَه صدقة، والكلمةُ الطيِّبة صدقة، وبكلِّ خطوة تَمشيها إلى الصلاة صدقة، وتُميط الأذى عن الطريق صدقة

Khaled

Re: the non incident of pen and paper- Rasululah (saw) fainted?
« Reply #18 on: March 31, 2015, 02:20:29 AM »
The shiite showed me this (http://fatwa.islamweb.net/fatwa/index.php?page=showfatwa&Option=FatwaId&Id=113249) and told me that Imam An Nawawi commented on this hadith without any supporting evidence from quran and sunnah (to explain Umar's statement and the quarrel).

Since I don't know arabic, I am clueless.

What's amazing, is had I read what the Imam رحمه الله wrote, I would've seen he DID quote evidence from the Qur'an to explain this سبحان الله.  He says رحمه الله:

"As for Omar رضي الله عنه's words, then the scholars who spoke about this hadeeth agreed that this is from the evidences that show Omar's understanding (fiqh), his virtue and his precise opinions because he worried that [the Messenger] صلى الله عليه وسلم would write things that they may not have been able to do and then they would have deserved to be punished for it because it would be written down with no room for ijtihaad in it.  So Omar said, "Allah's Book is sufficient for us." Because of what Allah said, " We have neglected nothing in the Book" [6:38] and "Today I have perfect your Religion for you." [5:3] Therefore, he knew Allah has perfect His Religion so he felt safe that the Ummah would be safe from misguidance.  So he wanted to make things easier on the Messenger صلى الله عليه وسلم, therefore, Omar had better understanding (fiqh) than ibn Abbaas and those who agreed with him."

سبحان الله
كلُّ سُلامى من الناس عليه صدقة كلَّ يوم تطلع فيه الشمس، تَعدلُ بين اثنين صدقة، وتعين الرَّجل في دابَّته فتحمله عليها أو ترفع له عليها متاعَه صدقة، والكلمةُ الطيِّبة صدقة، وبكلِّ خطوة تَمشيها إلى الصلاة صدقة، وتُميط الأذى عن الطريق صدقة

Hani

Re: the non incident of pen and paper- Rasululah (saw) fainted?
« Reply #19 on: March 31, 2015, 02:23:10 AM »
What do Shiites think that RasulAllah (saws) was going to write anyways?  To follow the Qur'an and Ahl al-Bayt?  Didn't he already do this in Hadeeth al-Thaqalayn?  So it really is even less of an issue for Shiites and yet they are the ones that keep emphasizing this incident. 

They say he was going to write down `Ali's Imamah. (no joke, they have a Hadith on it).
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

 

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