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Verse of cave , destroying an objection.

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TAHIR

Verse of cave , destroying an objection.
« on: February 05, 2020, 12:30:44 PM »
 Shias claim, to paraphrase there words
Abu Bakr grieved for his life, and didn't believe in the protection of Allah.
We say now let u also demonstrate the same zeal against Musa (a.s)
When musa (a.s) was combating the magicians, Allah says


 And sensed within himself fear,did moses.

 Allah said, "Fear not. Indeed, it is you who are superior.
Chapter 20 verse 67 and 68.
With that said, I avoid the unnecessary explanation
And Allah knows best

 

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Re: Verse of cave , destroying an objection.
« Reply #1 on: February 08, 2020, 01:25:15 PM »
Mashallah! Good point.
در خلافت میل نیست ای بی‌خبر
میل کی آید ز بوبکر و عمر
میل اگر بودی در آن دو مقتدا
هر دو کردندی پسر را پیشوا

عطار نِیشابوری

www.Nahjul-Balagha.net | www.TwelverShia.net | www.ghadirkhumm.com

Soccer

Re: Verse of cave , destroying an objection.
« Reply #2 on: March 23, 2020, 06:51:14 PM »
Moses' fear was regarding people becoming confused, but God told him, don't worry, you are higher in their eyes then the Pharaoh and all people right now, and I will destroy the illusions with true power from me from you through a stick.

And when his hand became bright light so bright, the truth came to them then, and they accused of it as sorcery.

The truth was they knew Moses was not lying, but they went to denial rather then accepting what had became clear.

And his fear regarding his life was that he wouldn't able to spread the message, and that is one of many reasons he asked for Aaron as Aaron would continue his role if killed and there is no crime against Aaron to give them that excuse.

But Allah (swt) don't worry, we send both of you with our signs and clarify the truth.

Whether Abu Bakr fear and grief was regarding his fear for Mohammad (s) or for his own life, the verse doesn't say. It talks about Allah (swt) protecting Mohammad (s) and supporting him with tranquility at a time with barely any supporters and says if you don't help, still, God will continue to help him and it would be your loss.

Helping God's Messengers does help God's cause, but really,  God doesn't need us and the Mahdi will succeed even if one believer like in Suratal Yaseen stands with while the rest will perish.

God's Messengers will succeed regardless if humanity will or not, we need to help them and help each other help them, and unite on love of God's chosen.

How this verse has become all about Abu Bakr and not about helping God's chosen trustees, is a catastrophe among the catastrophe that has fell the nation.

It didn't state Abu Bakr's intention and what it was, but it did show Mohammad's (s) trust in God and he was tranquil and God increased his tranquility as he done many times in battle when odds were against believers.

The point is the verse doesn't mention even that is Abu Bakr let alone anything about the intention of the one with him in the cave.  And I personally don't believe it was Abu Bakr, but it was rather, a travel guide Mohammad (s) took with him but that's another topic.

"Is it so bad, then, to be misunderstood? Pythagoras was misunderstood, and Socrates, and Jesus, and Luther, and Copernicus, and Galileo, and Newton, and every pure and wise spirit that ever took flesh. To be great is to be misunderstood.” ― Ralph Waldo Emerson, Self-Reliance

TAHIR

Re: Verse of cave , destroying an objection.
« Reply #3 on: March 23, 2020, 10:25:51 PM »
Moses' fear was regarding people becoming confused, but God told him, don't worry, you are higher in their eyes then the Pharaoh and all people right now, and I will destroy the illusions with true power from me from you through a stick.

And when his hand became bright light so bright, the truth came to them then, and they accused of it as sorcery.

The truth was they knew Moses was not lying, but they went to denial rather then accepting what had became clear.

And his fear regarding his life was that he wouldn't able to spread the message, and that is one of many reasons he asked for Aaron as Aaron would continue his role if killed and there is no crime against Aaron to give them that excuse.

But Allah (swt) don't worry, we send both of you with our signs and clarify the truth.

Whether Abu Bakr fear and grief was regarding his fear for Mohammad (s) or for his own life, the verse doesn't say. It talks about Allah (swt) protecting Mohammad (s) and supporting him with tranquility at a time with barely any supporters and says if you don't help, still, God will continue to help him and it would be your loss.

Helping God's Messengers does help God's cause, but really,  God doesn't need us and the Mahdi will succeed even if one believer like in Suratal Yaseen stands with while the rest will perish.

God's Messengers will succeed regardless if humanity will or not, we need to help them and help each other help them, and unite on love of God's chosen.

Instead of replying with a long rant i chose to write only the relevant verses of quran


Surat No 20 : Ayat No 66
 He said, "Rather, you throw." And suddenly their ropes and staffs seemed to him from their magic that they were moving [like snakes].
Surat No 20 : Ayat No 67
 And he sensed within himself apprehension, did Moses.
Surat No 20 : Ayat No 68
 Allah said, "Fear not. Indeed, it is you who are superior.
 
Surat No 20 : Ayat No 69
 And throw what is in your right hand; it will swallow up what they have crafted. What they have crafted is but the trick of a magician, and the magician will not succeed wherever he is.

This does away with your long explanation inshallah

Quote
Whether Abu Bakr fear and grief was regarding his fear for Mohammad (s) or for his own life, the verse doesn't say
You assume either of two won't be able to prove anything,if it was for Prophet(s.a.w) Alhamdulillah
If it was for himself still he has followed the example of Musa (a.s) thumma Alhamdulillah

Quote
talks about Allah (swt) protecting Mohammad (s) and supporting him with tranquility at a time with barely any supporters   
You forgot to mention the name of only supporter at that particular point of time

Quote
.Helping God's Messengers does help God's cause, but really,  God doesn't need us and the Mahdi will succeed even if one believer like in Suratal Yaseen stands with while the rest will perish.
   
Is that the reason Ali (r.a) wanted 40 supporters to save his usurped imamah ?

Quote
How this verse has become all about Abu Bakr and not about helping God's chosen trustees, is a catastrophe among the catastrophe that has fell the nation.
Emotinal rant,  if it was Ali (r.a) praised you would have run to high hills mashallah this is word of Allah and none of us has a right.so cheap tactics here.
Code: [Select]
It didn't state Abu Bakr's intention and what it was, but it did show Mohammad's (s) trust in God and he was tranquil and God increased his tranquility as he done many times in battle when odds were against believers.

The same God whose prophet(s.a.w) said to Abu Bakr(r.a) ,Allah is with us


Quote
The point is the verse doesn't mention even that is Abu Bakr let alone anything about the intention of the one with him in the cave.  And I personally don't believe it was Abu Bakr, but it was rather, a travel guide Mohammad (s) took with him but that's another topic.


You better ask you mufaseeren who all have been blinded to believe it was Abu Bakr (r.a), by the way any indirect refrence to 12 imams who are superior to All prophets let alone Abu bakr (r.a) in the Quran??


To the shiees if prophet assures somebody Allah is with us ,it means nothing
To be your religion to us be ours.


« Last Edit: March 23, 2020, 10:29:09 PM by TAHIR »

Soccer

Re: Verse of cave , destroying an objection.
« Reply #4 on: March 24, 2020, 05:24:35 AM »
The with us is plural but it's not two plural. In Arabic, two takes a special plural form. Whether the person is included in the us or not, is not said by the verse either.



"Is it so bad, then, to be misunderstood? Pythagoras was misunderstood, and Socrates, and Jesus, and Luther, and Copernicus, and Galileo, and Newton, and every pure and wise spirit that ever took flesh. To be great is to be misunderstood.” ― Ralph Waldo Emerson, Self-Reliance

Soccer

Re: Verse of cave , destroying an objection.
« Reply #5 on: March 24, 2020, 05:44:48 AM »
The Quran is a guidance from God.  At the end, it's many dark ambiguities has to be cleared through itself.

Hadiths if reflected about will help. But at the end, it's Quran that clarifies itself.

You got to chose a time, to reflect over Quran through Quran.  Let it contextualize and speak through all it's verses holding on to each other.

Ahlulbayt, the number of successors, their roles, all this is clear to me in Quran.

"Is it so bad, then, to be misunderstood? Pythagoras was misunderstood, and Socrates, and Jesus, and Luther, and Copernicus, and Galileo, and Newton, and every pure and wise spirit that ever took flesh. To be great is to be misunderstood.” ― Ralph Waldo Emerson, Self-Reliance

TAHIR

Re: Verse of cave , destroying an objection.
« Reply #6 on: March 24, 2020, 08:19:06 AM »
The with us is plural but it's not two plural. In Arabic, two takes a special plural form. Whether the person is included in the us or not, is not said by the verse either.





Again i will respond with the verses of quran only

Surat No 26 : Ayat No 61
 And when the two companies saw one another, the companions of Moses said, "Indeed, we are to be overtaken!"

Surat No 26 : Ayat No 62

 [Moses] said, "No! Indeed, with me is my lord, he will guide me

Compare this to

Chapter 9 verse 40
Do not grieve; indeed Allah is with us.
And i prefer not add a word more
« Last Edit: March 24, 2020, 08:21:25 AM by TAHIR »

TAHIR

Re: Verse of cave , destroying an objection.
« Reply #7 on: March 24, 2020, 08:23:22 AM »
The Quran is a guidance from God.  At the end, it's many dark ambiguities has to be cleared through itself.

Hadiths if reflected about will help. But at the end, it's Quran that clarifies itself.

You got to chose a time, to reflect over Quran through Quran.  Let it contextualize and speak through all it's verses holding on to each other.

Ahlulbayt, the number of successors, their roles, all this is clear to me in Quran.

One verse from quran demonstrating the role of Ahlulbayt
And we are done, anyways off the topic start a new thread

iceman

Re: Verse of cave , destroying an objection.
« Reply #8 on: April 04, 2020, 04:39:03 PM »
One verse from quran demonstrating the role of Ahlulbayt
And we are done, anyways off the topic start a new thread

One verse. I'll give you two if not more. The verses of Tat'heer and Mubahila along with the two incidents. Tell me the role of any companion in this.
« Last Edit: April 04, 2020, 04:43:46 PM by iceman »

Abu Muhammad

Re: Verse of cave , destroying an objection.
« Reply #9 on: April 05, 2020, 02:53:59 AM »
The with us is plural but it's not two plural. In Arabic, two takes a special plural form. Whether the person is included in the us or not, is not said by the verse either.

LOL... trying to sound like a smart person? A kindergarten arabic question to you: what is the plural of two for "us" in arabic?

TAHIR

Re: Verse of cave , destroying an objection.
« Reply #10 on: April 06, 2020, 08:49:56 PM »
One verse. I'll give you two if not more. The verses of Tat'heer and Mubahila along with the two incidents. Tell me the role of any companion in this.
Let us talk one by one
What is your commentary on tatheer ?

What do you understand  from it?
Please be as brief as you can
« Last Edit: April 06, 2020, 08:51:19 PM by TAHIR »

iceman

Re: Verse of cave , destroying an objection.
« Reply #11 on: April 07, 2020, 02:30:55 PM »
Let us talk one by one
What is your commentary on tatheer ?

What do you understand  from it?
Please be as brief as you can

The people under the blanket, rijs meaning any kind of impurity and uncleanness was removed from them, and then they were purified to the condition and state of purification.

TAHIR

Re: Verse of cave , destroying an objection.
« Reply #12 on: April 08, 2020, 12:37:42 PM »
Well i hahve only two questions
1. Same words and same expression has been used for all companions of Prophet (s.a.w) participating in badr

Surat No 8 : Ayat No 11

اِذۡ یُغَشِّیۡکُمُ النُّعَاسَ اَمَنَۃً مِّنۡہُ وَ یُنَزِّلُ عَلَیۡکُمۡ مِّنَ السَّمَآءِ مَآءً  لِّیُطَہِّرَکُمۡ بِہٖ وَ یُذۡہِبَ عَنۡکُمۡ رِجۡزَ الشَّیۡطٰنِ وَ لِیَرۡبِطَ عَلٰی قُلُوۡبِکُمۡ وَ یُثَبِّتَ بِہِ  الۡاَقۡدَامَ ﴿ؕ۱۱﴾

 [Remember] when He overwhelmed you with drowsiness [giving] security from Him and sent down upon you from the sky, rain by which to purify you and remove from you the evil [suggestions] of Satan and to make steadfast your hearts and plant firmly thereby your feet.
So do you agree that all conclusions you establish for all of those who you think33:33 applies also apply to all in Badr?

iceman

Re: Verse of cave , destroying an objection.
« Reply #13 on: April 08, 2020, 04:26:40 PM »
Well i hahve only two questions
1. Same words and same expression has been used for all companions of Prophet (s.a.w) participating in badr

Surat No 8 : Ayat No 11

اِذۡ یُغَشِّیۡکُمُ النُّعَاسَ اَمَنَۃً مِّنۡہُ وَ یُنَزِّلُ عَلَیۡکُمۡ مِّنَ السَّمَآءِ مَآءً  لِّیُطَہِّرَکُمۡ بِہٖ وَ یُذۡہِبَ عَنۡکُمۡ رِجۡزَ الشَّیۡطٰنِ وَ لِیَرۡبِطَ عَلٰی قُلُوۡبِکُمۡ وَ یُثَبِّتَ بِہِ  الۡاَقۡدَامَ ﴿ؕ۱۱﴾

 [Remember] when He overwhelmed you with drowsiness [giving] security from Him and sent down upon you from the sky, rain by which to purify you and remove from you the evil [suggestions] of Satan and to make steadfast your hearts and plant firmly thereby your feet.
So do you agree that all conclusions you establish for all of those who you think33:33 applies also apply to all in Badr?

Ok, I'm going to take you up on this.

"Same words and same expression has been used for all companions of Prophet (s.a.w) participating in badr"

Ok, first which companions took part in the battle of badr?

"So do you agree that all conclusions you establish for all of those who you think33:33 applies also apply to all in Badr?"

The two cases are absolutely and completely separate and different. Put them both forward and address them. I'll most certainly comment on them in depth. But do tell me which companions took part in badr.

TAHIR

Re: Verse of cave , destroying an objection.
« Reply #14 on: April 08, 2020, 08:32:32 PM »
Ok, I'm going to take you up on this.

"Same words and same expression has been used for all companions of Prophet (s.a.w) participating in badr"

Ok, first which companions took part in the battle of badr?

"So do you agree that all conclusions you establish for all of those who you think33:33 applies also apply to all in Badr?"

The two cases are absolutely and completely separate and different. Put them both forward and address them. I'll most certainly comment on them in depth. But do tell me which companions took part in badr.
What is the difference that is upon you to show , Allah pirified al badri companions and there were 313 among them
Rest assured among them were umar and Abu Bakr

Soccer

Re: Verse of cave , destroying an objection.
« Reply #15 on: April 09, 2020, 03:51:00 PM »
Well i hahve only two questions
1. Same words and same expression has been used for all companions of Prophet (s.a.w) participating in badr

Surat No 8 : Ayat No 11

اِذۡ یُغَشِّیۡکُمُ النُّعَاسَ اَمَنَۃً مِّنۡہُ وَ یُنَزِّلُ عَلَیۡکُمۡ مِّنَ السَّمَآءِ مَآءً  لِّیُطَہِّرَکُمۡ بِہٖ وَ یُذۡہِبَ عَنۡکُمۡ رِجۡزَ الشَّیۡطٰنِ وَ لِیَرۡبِطَ عَلٰی قُلُوۡبِکُمۡ وَ یُثَبِّتَ بِہِ  الۡاَقۡدَامَ ﴿ؕ۱۱﴾

 [Remember] when He overwhelmed you with drowsiness [giving] security from Him and sent down upon you from the sky, rain by which to purify you and remove from you the evil [suggestions] of Satan and to make steadfast your hearts and plant firmly thereby your feet.
So do you agree that all conclusions you establish for all of those who you think33:33 applies also apply to all in Badr?

The intention of God sending water/tranquility from the sky was to establish them firmly and purify them, but the context, is that it works to keep them steadfast, not as a guarantee.

The talk of chosen households is different though.  The Quran in different places mentions that God attributes purity to who he pleases and commands people not to do so themselves.

It's not that believers cannot become pure, it's that they are not allowed to claim it. The exception is those who God attributes purity to.

Ayat Tatheer is about who God through the Quran wishes to attribute purity to.  When Zakariya (a) prays for a pure offspring, the meaning of pure here is a person made pure in the eyes of the people and is guaranteed to be without unclean blemish through out his life.   Yahya (a) is purified in the eyes of the people and is without blemish.

A believer can become in a pure state, what they can't have is purity attributed to them by reputation of people.

The Quran praises some believers that organized the issue of accepting Mohammad (s) and his followers in Yathrib (later to become Madina) but said that God didn't make who did that known.  And in fact, were it not for these people, Mecca would've been destroyed by God per Quran.

There is no doubt believers are praised in Quran. But Suratal Auli-Imran advises them to hold on to the rope of God and not turn on their backs in a tone that shows it's possible for them to do so.

The theme of chosen households in Quran, has it, that members of these chosen houses - are such that they are guaranteed safety and God knows they will not deviate from the path and any slips a Prophet every did in the past, God knew beforehand if they did slip they would return and never turn on their backs.

Ayat Tatheer is not a verse in isolation but has many verses about the chosen households in the past and that of Mohammad's (s).

The purification mentioned in the verse you are alluding to is them embracing the word of Taqwa, and it's to make them steadfast in hopes they do remain upon the path.

While the verses about chosen households are all in context, of manifesting and attributing purity by God to certain souls while no one can attribute purity to anyone really, but God.

"Is it so bad, then, to be misunderstood? Pythagoras was misunderstood, and Socrates, and Jesus, and Luther, and Copernicus, and Galileo, and Newton, and every pure and wise spirit that ever took flesh. To be great is to be misunderstood.” ― Ralph Waldo Emerson, Self-Reliance

 

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