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Was Umar Bin Al-Khattaab (RA) A violent Women Beater?

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Was Umar Bin Al-Khattaab (RA) A violent Women Beater?
« on: August 02, 2020, 06:13:38 PM »
Salam'alaykum Dear Brothers,

I am a Sunni/Salafi Muslim. Recently I came across a Shia website that has raised serious allegations against Umar bin Al-Khataab. They (the Shias) are claiming that Umar bin Al-Khataab was a violent women beater and an angry person. In order to support their claims, they have cited many authentic Sunni traditions about him.

You can find the list of all narrations and allegations here:- http://yshia.blogfa.com/post/16

Let me cite some narrations here and it seems that these narrations do apparently seem to be problematic!

the Messenger of Allah (saw) said: "Join our pious friend the good one, Uthman Ibn Madh‘oon," whereupon the women started to cry, then Umar started to beat them with his whip, so the Messenger of Allah (saw) took his hand and said: "Leave them O Umar!..."

Musnad Ahmad Ibn Hanbal. Vol 2, Page # 530-531

In this narration it is stated that Messenger of Allah (saw) took his hand and said: "Leave them O Umar!"

Does this mean that Umar bin Al-Khataab (RA) was very violent in his beatings to the extent that Prophet (Sallallahu'alayhiwasalam) needed to stop him??


Some may say that wailing over the dead is prohibited in Islam, so Umar's actions are justified here. However, it seems that those women were just simply weeping, not wailing over the dead.

The following narration also suggests that those women were simply weeping and Prophet (Sallallahu'alayhiwassalam) allowed them to weep:-

The Messenger of Allah (saw) said: "Join our good friend, Uthman Ibn Madh‘oon," whereupon the women started to cry. Then Umar started to beat them with his whip, whereupon the Messenger of Allah (saw) said: "LET THEM CRY!"

Musnad Ahmad Ibn Hanbal. Vol. 3, Pg. # 345 - 346 (This narration is declared authentic here:- http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-6PQCp5_kZM8/T5l8tBMUKUI/AAAAAAAACHo/_eTEjVAoaUg/s1600/Musnad+Ahmad1Vol3.jpg)

How can we respond to such allegations against Umar bin Khataab (RA)??

All of these narrations have also been authenticated here at DarulIfta Birmingham website, so I may assume that all of them are authentic:-

https://daruliftabirmingham.co.uk/are-these-hadiths-authentic-about-umar-ra/


Can anyone refute the Shias regarding this matter?
« Last Edit: August 02, 2020, 06:22:27 PM by Den Denny »

Soccer

Re: Was Umar Bin Al-Khattaab (RA) A violent Women Beater?
« Reply #1 on: August 08, 2020, 07:20:41 PM »
This might weaken Sunni position, but does not prove Shiite position nor the twelve Imams specific as in their number and identity.

Therefore, as much as Shiites like picking specific fights over these type of things, it is not the best usage of time in this dialogue.

The Quran proves the Ahlulbayt and even the number of successors of Mohammad (s), proves let alone designate it. Proves it as in to all humans, not just Muslims.

We should focus on Quran and reinforce interpretation with Sunnah and hadiths. Everything else in this dialogue other then contexualizing Quran and Sunnah is a waste of time.

"Is it so bad, then, to be misunderstood? Pythagoras was misunderstood, and Socrates, and Jesus, and Luther, and Copernicus, and Galileo, and Newton, and every pure and wise spirit that ever took flesh. To be great is to be misunderstood.” ― Ralph Waldo Emerson, Self-Reliance

Rationalist

Re: Was Umar Bin Al-Khattaab (RA) A violent Women Beater?
« Reply #2 on: August 09, 2020, 07:49:21 PM »
This might weaken Sunni position, but does not prove Shiite position nor the twelve Imams specific as in their number and identity.

Therefore, as much as Shiites like picking specific fights over these type of things, it is not the best usage of time in this dialogue.

The Quran proves the Ahlulbayt and even the number of successors of Mohammad (s), proves let alone designate it. Proves it as in to all humans, not just Muslims.

We should focus on Quran and reinforce interpretation with Sunnah and hadiths. Everything else in this dialogue other then contexualizing Quran and Sunnah is a waste of time.



Mashallah! I love this post.
I believe there is a narration from Imam Al Baqar(as) which advises Shias to not to focus on enemies of the family. Instead the Imam wants Shias to spread the seerah of Ahlul Bayt which will bring other toward them.

Soccer

Re: Was Umar Bin Al-Khattaab (RA) A violent Women Beater?
« Reply #3 on: August 09, 2020, 10:24:12 PM »
Thank you.

The Seerah of Ahlulbayt to be understood - their authority must be taken in that perspective. It's not useful either, since, the analysis of their Seerah highly depends on whether or not they striving for establishing their authority and reminding of people's duty towards them through Quran and Sunnah.

All this is not useful in dialogue. It might be emotionally inclining to see beauty of words of ahlulbayt in form of saheefa Sajadiya for example and Sahifa Sajjadiya over all is all of words that Devils and liars and forgers cannot reproduce "and it doesn't beseem them for they are from the hearing far removed".

The words of Ahlulbayt and their lives, are like the Quran, not capable for normal humans to produce, but Quran is a greater miracle and it's most clear than any book, and it's words are calculate to open infinite doors and it's contextualization is perfect and there is no ambiguity in it or darkness except that we create in our own minds from our own injustice and blindness and there is nothing it doesn't clarify and show when sought on good terms and sincere knowledge and wisdom sought from it sincerely.

In the time of Ahlulbayt being present among the people, the greater weight was them, as explained by the Prophet (s), "indeed Ali is the greater weight for he teaches you the Quran and interprets it".

But now in Ghayba, the hadiths are not greater weight then Ahlulbayt (a) nor is the Mahdi (a) a greater weight to the public, he is only a greater weight to the believers guided by his hands.

So for the public, the greatest weight is Quran now.

At a point where focus and help of Ahlulbayt was dire, Shiites over emphasized on Quran and from Quran on spears from Mauwiya to other deceptions, they failed the Ahlulbayt and didn't gain insights to Quran from them.

Now that Ahlulbayt not among us, we over emphasize on who is not with us anymore, and who watch us cling to idols and attribute God all kind of non-sense in the name of hadiths attributed to Ahlulbayt when really our scholars don't show all hadiths and only pick what suits their nafs.

The dialogue has to change. If Taqlid or how to approach studying religion and guidance is not in Quran, then Quran is a false book, and if Sunnah doesn't explain this in detail and emphasize on the true interpretation in this regard, then what we have left of the Sunnah is useless.

Truth is neither did Prophet leave this unclear, nor Quran not show the way clearly, nor did Ahlulbayt not reinforce the truth in this regard.

Where are we going and to what end?  The warnings of the destroyed cities and generations go out of our hears, as if the promised Messenger and final test is not clear in Quran, as if the Mahdi not emphasized in the Sunnah, as if Ahlulbayt emphasized on everything but how the Quran alludes to the Mahdi.

We are heading to destruction and the world cities will be destroyed at this rate, little believers will make it, and we will as a race have failed and the warnings of Quran to no avail.

While there is still time, we have to defeat the sorcery.

Context and putting verses back in their place, using the Sunnah in light of Quran and seeing Quran in light of Sunnah, letting Ahlulbayt messages clarify and remind us through Quran every insight we need, is of priority.

42:23 is a clear sign and proof, and is reinforced through out Quran, so there is no doubt, we Muslims chosen to rely on our desires and held on to dark sorcery in our hearts and the evil idol, and are a cursed people hell bound in the next world and will face destruction when the Mahdi returns if we keep on this track.

Seerah of Ahlulbayt (a), beauty of their words, all this helps a bit, but the truth won't win, till we put all verses in context of their place and let Quran be recited as it ought to be recited.




 
"Is it so bad, then, to be misunderstood? Pythagoras was misunderstood, and Socrates, and Jesus, and Luther, and Copernicus, and Galileo, and Newton, and every pure and wise spirit that ever took flesh. To be great is to be misunderstood.” ― Ralph Waldo Emerson, Self-Reliance

MuslimK

  • *****
  • Total likes: 255
  • +18/-0
  • یا مقلب القلوب ثبت قلبی علی دینک
    • Refuting Shia allegations everywhere
  • Religion: Sunni
Re: Was Umar Bin Al-Khattaab (RA) A violent Women Beater?
« Reply #4 on: August 10, 2020, 01:29:26 AM »
Salam'alaykum Dear Brothers,

I am a Sunni/Salafi Muslim. Recently I came across a Shia website that has raised serious allegations against Umar bin Al-Khataab. They (the Shias) are claiming that Umar bin Al-Khataab was a violent women beater and an angry person. In order to support their claims, they have cited many authentic Sunni traditions about him.

You can find the list of all narrations and allegations here:- http://yshia.blogfa.com/post/16

Let me cite some narrations here and it seems that these narrations do apparently seem to be problematic!

the Messenger of Allah (saw) said: "Join our pious friend the good one, Uthman Ibn Madh‘oon," whereupon the women started to cry, then Umar started to beat them with his whip, so the Messenger of Allah (saw) took his hand and said: "Leave them O Umar!..."

Musnad Ahmad Ibn Hanbal. Vol 2, Page # 530-531

In this narration it is stated that Messenger of Allah (saw) took his hand and said: "Leave them O Umar!"

Does this mean that Umar bin Al-Khataab (RA) was very violent in his beatings to the extent that Prophet (Sallallahu'alayhiwasalam) needed to stop him??


Some may say that wailing over the dead is prohibited in Islam, so Umar's actions are justified here. However, it seems that those women were just simply weeping, not wailing over the dead.

The following narration also suggests that those women were simply weeping and Prophet (Sallallahu'alayhiwassalam) allowed them to weep:-

The Messenger of Allah (saw) said: "Join our good friend, Uthman Ibn Madh‘oon," whereupon the women started to cry. Then Umar started to beat them with his whip, whereupon the Messenger of Allah (saw) said: "LET THEM CRY!"

Musnad Ahmad Ibn Hanbal. Vol. 3, Pg. # 345 - 346 (This narration is declared authentic here:- http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-6PQCp5_kZM8/T5l8tBMUKUI/AAAAAAAACHo/_eTEjVAoaUg/s1600/Musnad+Ahmad1Vol3.jpg)

How can we respond to such allegations against Umar bin Khataab (RA)??

All of these narrations have also been authenticated here at DarulIfta Birmingham website, so I may assume that all of them are authentic:-

https://daruliftabirmingham.co.uk/are-these-hadiths-authentic-about-umar-ra/


Can anyone refute the Shias regarding this matter?


Walaikum Salam,

No, Amir al-Muminin was not a violent women beater. These are from the fabrications. It is easy to refute this terrible attempt.

The report quoted from Musnad is not authentic as the narrator Ali bin Zaid (ibn jad'an) is unreliable (even accused of being a Rafidhi). Plenty of scholars have weakened this report and the narrator.

Even the text is rejected: It implies as if it was a norm to beat up women in the presence of the Prophet (saw) and during this one occasion Prophet (saw) made an exception and told Omar to leave them and let them cry.
در خلافت میل نیست ای بی‌خبر
میل کی آید ز بوبکر و عمر
میل اگر بودی در آن دو مقتدا
هر دو کردندی پسر را پیشوا

عطار نِیشابوری

www.Nahjul-Balagha.net | www.TwelverShia.net | www.ghadirkhumm.com

MuslimK

  • *****
  • Total likes: 255
  • +18/-0
  • یا مقلب القلوب ثبت قلبی علی دینک
    • Refuting Shia allegations everywhere
  • Religion: Sunni
Re: Was Umar Bin Al-Khattaab (RA) A violent Women Beater?
« Reply #5 on: August 10, 2020, 01:31:22 AM »
Btw according to Nahjul Balagha, favorite book of the Shia, Ali is shown as a misogynist:
http://nahjul-balagha.net/women/
در خلافت میل نیست ای بی‌خبر
میل کی آید ز بوبکر و عمر
میل اگر بودی در آن دو مقتدا
هر دو کردندی پسر را پیشوا

عطار نِیشابوری

www.Nahjul-Balagha.net | www.TwelverShia.net | www.ghadirkhumm.com

muslim720

Re: Was Umar Bin Al-Khattaab (RA) A violent Women Beater?
« Reply #6 on: August 10, 2020, 05:05:08 PM »
Salaam alaykum wa rahmatullah,

Allow me to quote the end of the article from the Shi'i website.

"Don't respond using the Tu Quoque fallacy, and don't change the topic by attacking Shia Islam, please. We are discussing Omar Ibn Al-Khattab, nothing else!"

How convenient!  They are asking us not to respond using "tu quoque" fallacy, meaning, we are not allowed to call them out on their hypocrisy.  In other words, if there is a narration in which Imams (ra) or Shias are shown to have done the same or worse, we cannot bring that up which makes this a "rules for thee but not for me" situation to favor the one who penned this article.

To say that exposing Shi'i hypocrisy is "tu quoque" is a cop-out since the argument is based on principles.  The article aims to prove that Umar (ra) had, and by extension Sunnis have, principles that the rational mind rejects.  It is only normal to attempt to show the same, or worse, from Shi'i books of authority.  "Tu quoque" is when you discredit an individual for failing to abide by his or her own conclusion whereas this is a case of principle that dictates our dealings.

Having said that, the Holy Prophet (saw) said that weeping is a source of discomfort for the one who passes away and Umar (ra) was making sure to prevent people from doing just that.  And it turns out that in most cases - as is true today - you'll find women weep more profusely than men.
« Last Edit: August 10, 2020, 05:06:38 PM by muslim720 »
"Our coward ran from those in authority" - Iceman (admitting the truth regarding his 12th Imam)

Noor-us-Sunnah

Re: Was Umar Bin Al-Khattaab (RA) A violent Women Beater?
« Reply #7 on: August 10, 2020, 05:06:36 PM »
Salam'alaykum Dear Brothers,

I am a Sunni/Salafi Muslim. Recently I came across a Shia website that has raised serious allegations against Umar bin Al-Khataab. They (the Shias) are claiming that Umar bin Al-Khataab was a violent women beater and an angry person. In order to support their claims, they have cited many authentic Sunni traditions about him.

You can find the list of all narrations and allegations here:- http://yshia.blogfa.com/post/16

Let me cite some narrations here and it seems that these narrations do apparently seem to be problematic!

the Messenger of Allah (saw) said: "Join our pious friend the good one, Uthman Ibn Madh‘oon," whereupon the women started to cry, then Umar started to beat them with his whip, so the Messenger of Allah (saw) took his hand and said: "Leave them O Umar!..."

Musnad Ahmad Ibn Hanbal. Vol 2, Page # 530-531

In this narration it is stated that Messenger of Allah (saw) took his hand and said: "Leave them O Umar!"

Does this mean that Umar bin Al-Khataab (RA) was very violent in his beatings to the extent that Prophet (Sallallahu'alayhiwasalam) needed to stop him??


Some may say that wailing over the dead is prohibited in Islam, so Umar's actions are justified here. However, it seems that those women were just simply weeping, not wailing over the dead.

The following narration also suggests that those women were simply weeping and Prophet (Sallallahu'alayhiwassalam) allowed them to weep:-

The Messenger of Allah (saw) said: "Join our good friend, Uthman Ibn Madh‘oon," whereupon the women started to cry. Then Umar started to beat them with his whip, whereupon the Messenger of Allah (saw) said: "LET THEM CRY!"

Musnad Ahmad Ibn Hanbal. Vol. 3, Pg. # 345 - 346 (This narration is declared authentic here:- http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-6PQCp5_kZM8/T5l8tBMUKUI/AAAAAAAACHo/_eTEjVAoaUg/s1600/Musnad+Ahmad1Vol3.jpg)

How can we respond to such allegations against Umar bin Khataab (RA)??

All of these narrations have also been authenticated here at DarulIfta Birmingham website, so I may assume that all of them are authentic:-

https://daruliftabirmingham.co.uk/are-these-hadiths-authentic-about-umar-ra/


Can anyone refute the Shias regarding this matter?

Walaikumsalam.

As brother said, these reports are weak and unreliable. The grading by shaykh Ahmad Shakir is not to be relied upon, as he was extremely lenient in grading reports.

Shaykh Shuaib al-Arnaut in his tahqeeq of Musnad Ahmad, has declared the chains of these reports as weak.


« Last Edit: August 10, 2020, 05:08:33 PM by Noor-us-Sunnah »

Soccer

Re: Was Umar Bin Al-Khattaab (RA) A violent Women Beater?
« Reply #8 on: August 12, 2020, 03:48:56 AM »
It's a waste time to talk about conjecture and what is not 100% proven sure knowledge with regard to the Sunni-Shia issue.

Imam Hussain (a) in the sermon of mina said what allowed Tyrants to rule over people and gain sway, was people holding to ambiguity when there existed clear proofs in the Quran and Sunnah out of love of dunya and lack of fear of God.

This is still our state today.

The Quran is a book of proofs, it has most proofs then verses, it has more proofs because it can combine verses for proofs.  The original Quran revealed by Gabriel to Mohammad (s) had more proofs then verses, and the Quran the Mahdi  (a) will bring to a new level and manifest, will have more proofs then that, same words, but light manifests light.

May God curse all humans who prefer the Taghut over the truth, and the way of blindness over the way of sight, and the way that leads to oppression in the land over that which leads to justice and peace, and May God curse those who prefer human choices and cultural choices over God's choice and may God curse those who turn away from God's chosen leaders from Jinn and humans.

May God curse those who rely on uncertain knowledge while Quran and Sunnah give a way to certainty, and may God curse those who prefer uncertain interpretation to that of the truth and light of the Quran, may God curse them forever.

I testify hell is forever for those who enter it and may he never forgive those who enter it.
"Is it so bad, then, to be misunderstood? Pythagoras was misunderstood, and Socrates, and Jesus, and Luther, and Copernicus, and Galileo, and Newton, and every pure and wise spirit that ever took flesh. To be great is to be misunderstood.” ― Ralph Waldo Emerson, Self-Reliance

 

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