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When Umar RA really died

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Shia not Rafidi

When Umar RA really died
« on: September 01, 2019, 06:45:37 AM »
Ok, Muharram has arrived and this talk is seen everywhere..
"When Did Hazrat Umar RA Really Pass Away".. what is mostly known is that he was attacked on 31 October 644 (which is 24 Dhu al-Hijjahh) and died on 3rd of November (which is 27 Dhu al-Hijjahh)..
Then why sunnis are so obsessed with 1st of Muharram and jump into these fruitless discussions with shia and then welcomed with the terms like BULB, Beshumar, Wahabis and so on..
Kindly shed some light on this issue
#__Shia of Ali__#
#__Sunni of Prophet Muhammad__#

Noor-us-Sunnah

Re: When Umar RA really died
« Reply #1 on: September 01, 2019, 09:30:22 AM »
Ok, Muharram has arrived and this talk is seen everywhere..
"When Did Hazrat Umar RA Really Pass Away".. what is mostly known is that he was attacked on 31 October 644 (which is 24 Dhu al-Hijjahh) and died on 3rd of November (which is 27 Dhu al-Hijjahh)..
Then why sunnis are so obsessed with 1st of Muharram and jump into these fruitless discussions with shia and then welcomed with the terms like BULB, Beshumar, Wahabis and so on..
Kindly shed some light on this issue

As per the most famous and majority view then he was attacked on 26 th Dhulhijjah and died on 1st of Muharram and was buried in morning of 1st Muharram .

If you know Urdu then watch these three videos which are filled with references from classical scholars.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=LZ1uhYtnvAg

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=wCXIpgYBjaM&feature=youtu.be

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=lcAroLptpDg&feature=youtu.be

 https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=LZ1uhYtnvAg

Shia not Rafidi

Re: When Umar RA really died
« Reply #2 on: September 01, 2019, 11:46:53 AM »
As per the most famous and majority view then he was attacked on 26 th Dhulhijjah and died on 1st of Muharram and was buried in morning of 1st Muharram .

If you know Urdu then watch these three videos which are filled with references from classical scholars.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=LZ1uhYtnvAg

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=wCXIpgYBjaM&feature=youtu.be

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=lcAroLptpDg&feature=youtu.be

 https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=LZ1uhYtnvAg
Thank you for your kind info, I'll check the references In Sha Allah
#__Shia of Ali__#
#__Sunni of Prophet Muhammad__#

Shia not Rafidi

Re: When Umar RA really died
« Reply #3 on: September 01, 2019, 11:48:36 AM »
@Noor,
BTW, are you from Pakistan ? Just asking
#__Shia of Ali__#
#__Sunni of Prophet Muhammad__#

Noor-us-Sunnah

Re: When Umar RA really died
« Reply #4 on: September 01, 2019, 01:26:29 PM »
@Noor,
BTW, are you from Pakistan ? Just asking
nopes.

fgss

Re: When Umar RA really died
« Reply #5 on: September 02, 2019, 07:51:21 AM »
Ok, Muharram has arrived and this talk is seen everywhere..
"When Did Hazrat Umar RA Really Pass Away".. what is mostly known is that he was attacked on 31 October 644 (which is 24 Dhu al-Hijjahh) and died on 3rd of November (which is 27 Dhu al-Hijjahh)..
Then why sunnis are so obsessed with 1st of Muharram and jump into these fruitless discussions with shia and then welcomed with the terms like BULB, Beshumar, Wahabis and so on..
Kindly shed some light on this issue

This is the reference which both Maulana Muhammad Ishaq and Engr Muhammad Ali Mirza have used in their videos.
إِنَّ أَصْدَقَ الْحَدِيثِ كِتَابُ اللَّهِ وَأَحْسَنَ الْهَدْىِ هَدْىُ مُحَمَّدٍ وَشَرَّ الأُمُورِ مُحْدَثَاتُهَا وَكُلَّ مُحْدَثَةٍ بِدْعَةٌ وَكُلَّ بِدْعَةٍ ضَلاَلَةٌ وَكُلَّ ضَلاَلَةٍ فِي النَّارِ

May Allah guide us to the true teachings of Quran and Sunnah of His beloved Prophet (s.a.w.w). Ameen

fgss

Re: When Umar RA really died
« Reply #6 on: September 02, 2019, 08:55:53 AM »
1st moharam is not correct date.

قال امام محمد بن سعدؒ (المتوفى: 230هـ) في الطبقات الکبریٰ،
أخبرنا عمرو بن عاصم الكلابي قال: أخبرنا همام بن يحيى قال: أخبرنا قتادة أن عمر بن الخطاب طعن يوم الأربعاء ومات يوم الخميس. رحمه الله.

قال ابن الاثير في اسد الغابة :
توفي عُمَر لأربع ليال بقين من ذي الحجة، وبويع عثمان يَوْم الأثنين لليلة بقيت من ذي الحجة.

قال الذهبي: "استشهد يوم الأربعاء لأربع أو ثلاث بقين من ذي الحجة، سنة ثلاث وعشرين من
الهجرة، وهو ابن ثلاث وستين سنة على الصحيح

إِنَّ أَصْدَقَ الْحَدِيثِ كِتَابُ اللَّهِ وَأَحْسَنَ الْهَدْىِ هَدْىُ مُحَمَّدٍ وَشَرَّ الأُمُورِ مُحْدَثَاتُهَا وَكُلَّ مُحْدَثَةٍ بِدْعَةٌ وَكُلَّ بِدْعَةٍ ضَلاَلَةٌ وَكُلَّ ضَلاَلَةٍ فِي النَّارِ

May Allah guide us to the true teachings of Quran and Sunnah of His beloved Prophet (s.a.w.w). Ameen

Noor-us-Sunnah

Re: When Umar RA really died
« Reply #7 on: September 02, 2019, 08:37:01 PM »
1st moharam is not correct date.

قال امام محمد بن سعدؒ (المتوفى: 230هـ) في الطبقات الکبریٰ،
أخبرنا عمرو بن عاصم الكلابي قال: أخبرنا همام بن يحيى قال: أخبرنا قتادة أن عمر بن الخطاب طعن يوم الأربعاء ومات يوم الخميس. رحمه الله.

قال ابن الاثير في اسد الغابة :
توفي عُمَر لأربع ليال بقين من ذي الحجة، وبويع عثمان يَوْم الأثنين لليلة بقيت من ذي الحجة.

قال الذهبي: "استشهد يوم الأربعاء لأربع أو ثلاث بقين من ذي الحجة، سنة ثلاث وعشرين من
الهجرة، وهو ابن ثلاث وستين سنة على الصحيح

The First report from Qatadah is Mursal because he wasn't born during era of Umar(RA), he was born after 60 AH. And this doesn't exactly say when he died, it just states, that he was attacked on Wednesday and died on Thursday.

For the rest watch the videos, because the evidence on which Ishaq Jhalvi and Mirza relied on was refuted in this video:
&feature=youtu.be&app=desktop

And see this report as well.

fgss

Re: When Umar RA really died
« Reply #8 on: September 04, 2019, 08:24:51 AM »
The First report from Qatadah is Mursal because he wasn't born during era of Umar(RA), he was born after 60 AH. And this doesn't exactly say when he died, it just states, that he was attacked on Wednesday and died on Thursday.

For the rest watch the videos, because the evidence on which Ishaq Jhalvi and Mirza relied on was refuted in this video:
&feature=youtu.be&app=desktop

And see this report as well.

Mufti Rashid himself is doing the same thing for which he is criticising others, in his another video where he is defending ameer muawiya about abusing Imam Ali. Like quoting half hadith, twisting word meaning etc.

And its not only about Engr Mirza and Maulana Ishaq. Famous ahlul sunnah researchers like Dhahabi and ibn hajr also testify the same.

https://tinyurl.com/y3g5fdls
https://tinyurl.com/y587v3ey

إِنَّ أَصْدَقَ الْحَدِيثِ كِتَابُ اللَّهِ وَأَحْسَنَ الْهَدْىِ هَدْىُ مُحَمَّدٍ وَشَرَّ الأُمُورِ مُحْدَثَاتُهَا وَكُلَّ مُحْدَثَةٍ بِدْعَةٌ وَكُلَّ بِدْعَةٍ ضَلاَلَةٌ وَكُلَّ ضَلاَلَةٍ فِي النَّارِ

May Allah guide us to the true teachings of Quran and Sunnah of His beloved Prophet (s.a.w.w). Ameen

Noor-us-Sunnah

Re: When Umar RA really died
« Reply #9 on: September 05, 2019, 10:16:41 PM »
Mufti Rashid himself is doing the same thing for which he is criticising others, in his another video where he is defending ameer muawiya about abusing Imam Ali. Like quoting half hadith, twisting word meaning etc.
That’s the problem here, instead of  looking at the evidence being presented here, you are going after the individual. That’s why I provided the links to two other individuals who presented the similar references, which actually invalidates your criticism.


And its not only about Engr Mirza and Maulana Ishaq. Famous ahlul sunnah researchers like Dhahabi and ibn hajr also testify the same.

https://tinyurl.com/y3g5fdls
https://tinyurl.com/y587v3ey
The first issue with this is that . Majority of scholars who came centuries before these scholars have said that Umar(r) died on 1st Muharram and was injured on 26th. So if some later scholar tries to go against them then their view doesn’t hold much weight.

Secondly, the books you are referring to are actually summarized versions of Tahzeeb Kamal, that’s why you find similar info in both.

And if you want to see Imam Dhahabi’s personal view then it was mentioned in the first video link I gave you.

 https://youtu.be/LZ1uhYtnvAg

See from 9:42 to 9:50 it’s from Siyar alam al-nubala of Imam Dhahabi.

fgss

Re: When Umar RA really died
« Reply #10 on: September 07, 2019, 10:06:27 AM »
That’s the problem here, instead of  looking at the evidence being presented here, you are going after the individual. That’s why I provided the links to two other individuals who presented the similar references, which actually invalidates your criticism.


I just pointed out the fact that for the things he is criticizing others, he himself is doing the same in his other videos.


The first issue with this is that . Majority of scholars who came centuries before these scholars have said that Umar(r) died on 1st Muharram and was injured on 26th. So if some later scholar tries to go against them then their view doesn’t hold much weight.

Secondly, the books you are referring to are actually summarized versions of Tahzeeb Kamal, that’s why you find similar info in both.

And if you want to see Imam Dhahabi’s personal view then it was mentioned in the first video link I gave you.

 https://youtu.be/LZ1uhYtnvAg

See from 9:42 to 9:50 it’s from Siyar alam al-nubala of Imam Dhahabi.



As for the reference part here is the full detail. Its dhil hijjah not moharram.

http://muslimscholars.info/manage.php?submit=scholar&ID=3
إِنَّ أَصْدَقَ الْحَدِيثِ كِتَابُ اللَّهِ وَأَحْسَنَ الْهَدْىِ هَدْىُ مُحَمَّدٍ وَشَرَّ الأُمُورِ مُحْدَثَاتُهَا وَكُلَّ مُحْدَثَةٍ بِدْعَةٌ وَكُلَّ بِدْعَةٍ ضَلاَلَةٌ وَكُلَّ ضَلاَلَةٍ فِي النَّارِ

May Allah guide us to the true teachings of Quran and Sunnah of His beloved Prophet (s.a.w.w). Ameen

fgss

Re: When Umar RA really died
« Reply #11 on: September 07, 2019, 12:39:47 PM »
More narrations in favor of dhil hijjah.

https://tinyurl.com/yxsjezz4
إِنَّ أَصْدَقَ الْحَدِيثِ كِتَابُ اللَّهِ وَأَحْسَنَ الْهَدْىِ هَدْىُ مُحَمَّدٍ وَشَرَّ الأُمُورِ مُحْدَثَاتُهَا وَكُلَّ مُحْدَثَةٍ بِدْعَةٌ وَكُلَّ بِدْعَةٍ ضَلاَلَةٌ وَكُلَّ ضَلاَلَةٍ فِي النَّارِ

May Allah guide us to the true teachings of Quran and Sunnah of His beloved Prophet (s.a.w.w). Ameen

Noor-us-Sunnah

Re: When Umar RA really died v
« Reply #12 on: September 07, 2019, 07:11:00 PM »
More narrations in favor of dhil hijjah.

https://tinyurl.com/yxsjezz4
What matters is their reliability not just reports. And as the scholars mentioned we find majority hold that Umar(r) died on 1st Muharram. And this is the mashoor view as per Ibn Katheer.

And not one but two scholars I quoted said that as per imam Dhahabi in siyar, Umar(r) died on 1st Muharram.

Do you agree that Mohammad Ali Mirza lied when he said that none from classical scholars said that Umar(r) died on 1st Muharram?
« Last Edit: September 07, 2019, 07:19:19 PM by Noor-us-Sunnah »

fgss

Re: When Umar RA really died v
« Reply #13 on: September 08, 2019, 12:42:21 PM »
What matters is their reliability not just reports. And as the scholars mentioned we find majority hold that Umar(r) died on 1st Muharram. And this is the mashoor view as per Ibn Katheer.

Yes reliability matters more, hence to be honest the opinion of Imam ibn Kathir carries less weight as he was not a rijal expert and his books contain many odd reports. Same is the case with Imam Suyuti. Whereas ibn Hajar asqalani, who is authority in ilm rijal and hadith said in almost all his works that Umar (as) died in dhil hijjah 23 hijrah.
http://muslimscholars.info/manage.php?submit=scholar&ID=3

And its also a fact that reports in favor of dhil hijjah are more in number compared to other view. Ibn Hajar accepted this view hence reports are not all weak.

And its about the truth not just majority opinion. Majority can also be wrong sometimes. Have you seen this post of brother Farid on twitter.
https://mobile.twitter.com/Farid_0v/status/1158706317583880192

Where he showed that the claim about the merit of fasting ashura and arafa is actually false. Something which is agreed upon by all four sunni schools of fiqah.

1st moharram or 26,27 dhil hijjah is a minor issue compared to that one.
إِنَّ أَصْدَقَ الْحَدِيثِ كِتَابُ اللَّهِ وَأَحْسَنَ الْهَدْىِ هَدْىُ مُحَمَّدٍ وَشَرَّ الأُمُورِ مُحْدَثَاتُهَا وَكُلَّ مُحْدَثَةٍ بِدْعَةٌ وَكُلَّ بِدْعَةٍ ضَلاَلَةٌ وَكُلَّ ضَلاَلَةٍ فِي النَّارِ

May Allah guide us to the true teachings of Quran and Sunnah of His beloved Prophet (s.a.w.w). Ameen

fgss

Re: When Umar RA really died v
« Reply #14 on: September 08, 2019, 12:57:11 PM »
And not one but two scholars I quoted said that as per imam Dhahabi in siyar, Umar(r) died on 1st Muharram.

Do you agree that Mohammad Ali Mirza lied when he said that none from classical scholars said that Umar(r) died on 1st Muharram?

But I did not find the reference of Imam Dhahabi on vol-2 p.459, pdf from maktab waqfeya. Can you provide the online source.

Yes I think Muhammad Ali Mirza exaggerated and lied there. And also he did not show proper evidences in support of his claim. He mostly relied upon Usud al-ghaba only.

Also I like to point out that the other video you shared also tells a lie. This one https://youtu.be/LZ1uhYtnvAg

In evidence no. 4 he quoted Tarikh Khalifa bin Khayyat (d.240AH), teacher of Imam Bukhari, and it is perhaps the most earliest reliable work on history.

But he did not tell the full story. Why? Because it was not in his support at all.

See the attachment.

Its under the heading events of 23 hijrah. No where it is mentioned that Umar (as) died on 1st moharram 24 hijrah in this early book on history. It only says when he got stabbed, there were three days remaining in dhil hijjah and others say seven days.

Rather it is mentioned with full isnad that he died on Wednesday and still four days were remaining in dhil hijjah 23 hijrah.

So to say that other opinion carry no weight is false.

إِنَّ أَصْدَقَ الْحَدِيثِ كِتَابُ اللَّهِ وَأَحْسَنَ الْهَدْىِ هَدْىُ مُحَمَّدٍ وَشَرَّ الأُمُورِ مُحْدَثَاتُهَا وَكُلَّ مُحْدَثَةٍ بِدْعَةٌ وَكُلَّ بِدْعَةٍ ضَلاَلَةٌ وَكُلَّ ضَلاَلَةٍ فِي النَّارِ

May Allah guide us to the true teachings of Quran and Sunnah of His beloved Prophet (s.a.w.w). Ameen

Noor-us-Sunnah

Re: When Umar RA really died v
« Reply #15 on: September 08, 2019, 04:52:37 PM »
But I did not find the reference of Imam Dhahabi on vol-2 p.459, pdf from maktab waqfeya. Can you provide the online source.
As you can see in the scan from Siyar, Umar(R) was buried on 1st of Muharram, and then Shura took place for appointment of next Caliph. This implies he died same day, as the two scholars explained, because it's not possible that three days the body of Umar(R) would be kept without any reason.

Yes I think Muhammad Ali Mirza exaggerated and lied there. And also he did not show proper evidences in support of his claim.
That's why we claim that Mirza is a Fraud and a liar, don't listen to him, lay people don't realize how cleverly he blends his lies with the truth.

Also I like to point out that the other video you shared also tells a lie. This one https://youtu.be/LZ1uhYtnvAg

In evidence no. 4 he quoted Tarikh Khalifa bin Khayyat (d.240AH), teacher of Imam Bukhari, and it is perhaps the most earliest reliable work on history.

But he did not tell the full story. Why? Because it was not in his support at all.

See the attachment.

Its under the heading events of 23 hijrah. No where it is mentioned that Umar (as) died on 1st moharram 24 hijrah in this early book on history. It only says when he got stabbed, there were three days remaining in dhil hijjah and others say seven days.
It's not his LIE, but rather it's your blatant LIE.

You Said:It only says when he got stabbed, there were three days remaining in dhil hijjah and others say seven days.

But Actually you chopped off this important part "فعاش ثلاثة ايام" which was before, "others say seven days". This part says that he lived for three days. Now after we add this part then this is what it becomes.

"when he got stabbed, there were three days remaining in dhil hijjah, HE LIVED FOR THREE DAYS and others say seven days".


This implies that he died in Muharram and this is the view of Khalifa bin Khayyat.

Rather it is mentioned with full isnad that he died on Wednesday and still four days were remaining in dhil hijjah 23 hijrah.

So to say that other opinion carry no weight is false.
If this report is assumed to be authentic, even then this can be easily reconciled. The view of Imam Khalifa bin Khayyat or the view in this report of Kitab al-Mihan, page 66 can be reconciled, that the report you mentioned is talking about the day when Umar(R) was attacked. You can see this report from Mu'jam al-Awsat, where Umar(R) asks: Who attacked(Qatal) me?. So it doesn't mean that Umar(R) is asking who killed me, similarly in the report you mentioned its talking about the day when Umar(R) was attacked. And he died on 1st Muharram as other report and Khalifa, etc mentioned.

fgss

Re: When Umar RA really died v
« Reply #16 on: September 11, 2019, 11:04:49 AM »
That's why we claim that Mirza is a Fraud and a liar, don't listen to him, lay people don't realize how cleverly he blends his lies with the truth.

This applies to almost all present day scholars, no one is infallible. And I think you should email him and show him the evidences and ask for the public apology or further clarification about his claims.


As you can see in the scan from Siyar, Umar(R) was buried on 1st of Muharram, and then Shura took place for appointment of next Caliph. This implies he died same day, as the two scholars explained, because it's not possible that three days the body of Umar(R) would be kept without any reason.

It's not his LIE, but rather it's your blatant LIE.

You Said:It only says when he got stabbed, there were three days remaining in dhil hijjah and others say seven days.

But Actually you chopped off this important part "فعاش ثلاثة ايام" which was before, "others say seven days". This part says that he lived for three days. Now after we add this part then this is what it becomes.

"when he got stabbed, there were three days remaining in dhil hijjah, HE LIVED FOR THREE DAYS and others say seven days".


This implies that he died in Muharram and this is the view of Khalifa bin Khayyat.
If this report is assumed to be authentic, even then this can be easily reconciled. The view of Imam Khalifa bin Khayyat or the view in this report of Kitab al-Mihan, page 66 can be reconciled, that the report you mentioned is talking about the day when Umar(R) was attacked. You can see this report from Mu'jam al-Awsat, where Umar(R) asks: Who attacked(Qatal) me?. So it doesn't mean that Umar(R) is asking who killed me, similarly in the report you mentioned its talking about the day when Umar(R) was attacked. And he died on 1st Muharram as other report and Khalifa, etc mentioned.


I apologize for my mistakes (if there are any).

Here is what I personally believe regarding this matter and after this brief discussion.

According to Imam Dhahbi, Hazrat Umar (as) died on 1st muharram, so the heading is under year 24AH. Ans he also showed a report in support of his claim, unlike ibn Khayyat. Imam ibn Khayyat has put it under year 23AH. There is nothing there in support of 1st muharram except some conjecture, I mean no report. All the reports on p.152-153 tells other story.

No doubt Engr. Mirza's arguments are not satisfactory. But to claim that "Its a established historical fact that Umar (as) died on 1st Muharram is a big lie"

The scholars mentioned in the videos you shared are not a huge list. What about those scholars and historians who are not mentioned. And also the reports in support of Dhil Hijjah are equal in number to the other view, if not more (actually they are more). As it can be seen from Tarikh Madina and Tarikh Kahlifa bin Khayyat alone.

And the end result is:
http://muslimscholars.info/manage.php?submit=scholar&ID=3
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Umar (if its wrong you should edit this bcoz world follows this page which is made by sunnis I think)
إِنَّ أَصْدَقَ الْحَدِيثِ كِتَابُ اللَّهِ وَأَحْسَنَ الْهَدْىِ هَدْىُ مُحَمَّدٍ وَشَرَّ الأُمُورِ مُحْدَثَاتُهَا وَكُلَّ مُحْدَثَةٍ بِدْعَةٌ وَكُلَّ بِدْعَةٍ ضَلاَلَةٌ وَكُلَّ ضَلاَلَةٍ فِي النَّارِ

May Allah guide us to the true teachings of Quran and Sunnah of His beloved Prophet (s.a.w.w). Ameen

Noor-us-Sunnah

Re: When Umar RA really died v
« Reply #17 on: September 11, 2019, 11:59:46 AM »
This applies to almost all present day scholars, no one is infallible. And I think you should email him and show him the evidences and ask for the public apology or further clarification about his claims.
Mirza's case is different he is a liar and fraud, he lies, makes deceitful translations, applies double standards, etc. I have had personal discussion with him when he wasn't famous, from that time i realized that he is a deviant. And do you think that no one has pointed out Mirza's lies and deceit? There are many in the form of videos as well, yet he never dares to make apology, that's only drama before his blind followers, like choosing some minute mistakes of his and making public apology just to gain confidence. And when his lies, or big blunders are pointed out, he chooses to ignore.


I apologize for my mistakes (if there are any).
Im glad that a LIE turned into a mistake, It was a LIE because you thought it came out from some Scholar. Anyways human being do make mistake.

Imam ibn Khayyat has put it under year 23AH. There is nothing there in support of 1st muharram except some conjecture, I mean no report. All the reports on p.152-153 tells other story.
It's not conjecture, When a Scholar mentions a date while presenting different reports, it shows that he had certain info with him, but just that he didn't get a narrator narrating that info to him, while he got that info from books of scholar, which he relied upon, that could be a better explanation to this.
 
No doubt Engr. Mirza's arguments are not satisfactory. But to claim that "Its a established historical fact that Umar (as) died on 1st Muharram is a big lie"
It's historical fact because of reliable report present, which i showed you, and Multiple scholars shared this view and Ibn Katheer calls it Mashoor view.

The scholars mentioned in the videos you shared are not a huge list. What about those scholars and historians who are not mentioned. And also the reports in support of Dhil Hijjah are equal in number to the other view, if not more (actually they are more). As it can be seen from Tarikh Madina and Tarikh Kahlifa bin Khayyat alone.
The question here is NOT just about reports, rather authentic reports. And as i told you authentic reports of Dhul Hijjah can be reconciled with the one on First Muharram, because Its True that Umar(R) was stabbed in Dhul Hijjah, but authentic reports and Authoritative Scholars show that he died on 1st Muharram. So there is nothing contradictory here.

fgss

Re: When Umar RA really died v
« Reply #18 on: September 12, 2019, 09:37:30 AM »
Mirza's case is different he is a liar and fraud, he lies, makes deceitful translations, applies double standards, etc. I have had personal discussion with him when he wasn't famous, from that time i realized that he is a deviant. And do you think that no one has pointed out Mirza's lies and deceit? There are many in the form of videos as well, yet he never dares to make apology, that's only drama before his blind followers, like choosing some minute mistakes of his and making public apology just to gain confidence. And when his lies, or big blunders are pointed out, he chooses to ignore.

Now this is double standard.

On one hand you are defending people, who have committed major sins throughout their life, only because there is a hadith about the gald tidings. And how he got there is another story.

There is also a hadith which says eventually every muslim will entre jannah. So does it means that we should not point out anyone's mistakes or sins, because the fate of every muslim is in the end jannah. That's the major issue with ahlul sunnah and perhaps the main reason of shia-sunni rift since centuries. See Quran 4:135 and 5:8.

And you think Engr. Mirza is alone is this thing. Youtube is full of the lies of almost every present day scholar from every school of thought. Big liars and deviated people are actually those who are following and defending fairy tales, super natural things etc.

I am not his regular listner or a die hard fan, neither of ummayds, and I do not agree with him in whatever he says. He has his own shortcomings but his most of the stuff is based on only primary sunni books unlike many others.

Please quote his other major lies and blunders, I will email him and see how he responds, as he often says he is open to critisism. Lets see.


  It's historical fact because of reliable report present, which i showed you, and Multiple scholars shared this view and Ibn Katheer calls it Mashoor view.

No. It's not a established historical fact. http://muslimscholars.info/manage.php?submit=scholar&ID=3
Not all reports in support of other claim are weak. Mashoor and reliable are two different things. Even Imam Ibn Kathir himself is Mash'hoor but not reliable compared to other historians.
إِنَّ أَصْدَقَ الْحَدِيثِ كِتَابُ اللَّهِ وَأَحْسَنَ الْهَدْىِ هَدْىُ مُحَمَّدٍ وَشَرَّ الأُمُورِ مُحْدَثَاتُهَا وَكُلَّ مُحْدَثَةٍ بِدْعَةٌ وَكُلَّ بِدْعَةٍ ضَلاَلَةٌ وَكُلَّ ضَلاَلَةٍ فِي النَّارِ

May Allah guide us to the true teachings of Quran and Sunnah of His beloved Prophet (s.a.w.w). Ameen

Noor-us-Sunnah

Re: When Umar RA really died v
« Reply #19 on: September 12, 2019, 01:24:02 PM »
Now this is double standard.
If you want to see what double standard or hypocrisy whatever you want to call it, then it is, calling certain thing from a Sunni Scholar as LIE, but when it is proven that the Scholar was falsely accused rather, rather you hid or chopped off the crucial words, then it becomes a MISTAKE. So when such a person is out here to accuse me doing double standard it doesn't bother me, i just say look in the mirror first.

On one hand you are defending people, who have committed major sins throughout their life, only because there is a hadith about the gald tidings. And how he got there is another story.
The problem with Haters is that they walk the path of injustice while judging people whom they hate. And we remind them to be just, by reminding those fools that, look at the other side of the coin as well in regards to life of the people whom they hate, their life is filled with major good deeds, major sacrifices for Islam, due to which they were promised Jannah. And we are reminding those sick haters the teachings of Quran.

O you who believe! Stand out firmly for Allah and be just witnesses and let not the enmity and hatred of others make you avoid justice. Be just: that is nearer to piety, and fear Allah. Verily, Allah is Well-Acquainted with what you do} [Al-Maeda 5:8].


There is also a hadith which says eventually every muslim will entre jannah. So does it means that we should not point out anyone's mistakes or sins, because the fate of every muslim is in the end jannah. That's the major issue with ahlul sunnah and perhaps the main reason of shia-sunni rift since centuries. See Quran 4:135 and 5:8.
Now, I want to point out that the topic is being changed.

Entering Jannah EVENTUALLY and Entering Jannah directly has a difference. How is it different? See the example of a Badri Sahabi who committed a Major sin, yet Prophet(S) didn't  didn't apply punishment on him, citing the reason of him being a Badri Sahabi and having special virtue. Now you cannot pick a general report and start equating it with the specific virtue mentioned about Badri Sahaba. Nor does a general report undermine the status of specific virtue mentioned about Badri Sahaba.

And you think Engr. Mirza is alone is this thing. Youtube is full of the lies of almost every present day scholar from every school of thought. Big liars and deviated people are actually those who are following and defending fairy tales, super natural things etc.
I don't trust on what you say, because you yourself have lost your trustworthiness. And i disagree with you, there are scholars who on youtube who are honest and trustworthy. But yes they make mistakes, but the problem with some Zanadiqa is that, they try to equate mistakes with lies. Lying is a different thing and being mistaken is a different thing.

I am not his regular listner or a die hard fan, neither of ummayds, and I do not agree with him in whatever he says. He has his own shortcomings but his most of the stuff is based on only primary sunni books unlike many others.
If someone mixes little poison in one part in a Biryani plate and serves people, my recommendation would be to avoid all of it. I agree he goes mention some truthful things but the problem is his mixing lies, which lay people can't figure out. And this was what the other heretics like Ghulam Ahmad Qadiyani used to do as well, even he used to mix truth with lies.

Please quote his other major lies and blunders, I will email him and see how he responds, as he often says he is open to critisism. Lets see.
I'm planning to make a video collecting all his LIES not mistakes, and compiling into one video. So, do one thing send him this lie of his, if he apologizes then I'll share others to you so that he apologizes for all, if he doesn't then he deserves to be exposed and called a liar.


No. It's not a established historical fact. http://muslimscholars.info/manage.php?submit=scholar&ID=3
Not all reports in support of other claim are weak. Mashoor and reliable are two different things. Even Imam Ibn Kathir himself is Mash'hoor but not reliable compared to other historians.
What do you mean "not reliable compared to other historians"? Actually you are a nobody and untrustworthy, keep this in mind. While Imam Ibn Katheer is highly trustworthy scholar. And when you have an authentic report from a SAHABI showing that Umar(RA) was stabbed on 26th Dhul hijjah and died 3 days later, then that is superior to any later Scholars disagreement with it.

 

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