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Why double standard?

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Hani

Re: Why double standard?
« Reply #20 on: May 09, 2016, 10:47:50 PM »
Barak-Allahu feek, we surely know what they mean by it yet our policy is to let them curse/insult but we try to avoid it ourselves as much as humanly possible.
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

jibt

Re: Why double standard?
« Reply #21 on: May 09, 2016, 11:22:31 PM »

Ok for instance let accept people were capable enough to appoint their ruler but then what exactly did abu bakr did in 2 and half year of his rule that people were so backtracked that abu bakr had to choose from them a ruler?? Something really must be wrong in his rule that people were no longer capable to select on their own.

Point to ponder.

It is historically recorded that Abu Bakr only chose `Umar because the people asked him to pick a leader and insisted on him.

Once again you speak without knowing thr facts. In truth people considered and challenged the appointment of Umar.

I am still waiting for answer. All you guys are doing are changing the topic and running around the bush
If not for Ali, Umar would have been perished

Optimus Prime

Re: Why double standard?
« Reply #22 on: May 10, 2016, 12:23:46 AM »

Ok for instance let accept people were capable enough to appoint their ruler but then what exactly did abu bakr did in 2 and half year of his rule that people were so backtracked that abu bakr had to choose from them a ruler?? Something really must be wrong in his rule that people were no longer capable to select on their own.

Point to ponder.

It is historically recorded that Abu Bakr only chose `Umar because the people asked him to pick a leader and insisted on him.

Once again you speak without knowing thr facts. In truth people considered and challenged the appointment of Umar.

I am still waiting for answer. All you guys are doing are changing the topic and running around the bush

Please, provide the facts that people opposed the Caliphate of Umar (RA)?

You keep side-tracking the very fact we keep reminding you of that Umar (RA) was selected based on the approval of many companions.

It is also a historical fact that Uthman (RA) did not write down Umar's (RA) name without being instructed to. You clearly refuse to believe this, so no one is going to bother to give you a serious answer unless you put forward the source to where you ascertained such an absurd notion from.

Rationalist

Re: Why double standard?
« Reply #23 on: May 10, 2016, 01:27:03 AM »


One of the most stupidest thing i have ever heard. Prophet (saws) the last prophet of Allah dies but does not appoints anyone as his successor while leaving behind millions without a guide whereas any sane and able minded person who leaves behind one of smallest of business or empire appoints his successor before dying. You people even think??
Did the 12th Imam appoint a representative before he disappeared?

Hani

Re: Why double standard?
« Reply #24 on: May 10, 2016, 02:30:07 AM »

Once again you speak without knowing thr facts. In truth people considered and challenged the appointment of Umar.

I am still waiting for answer. All you guys are doing are changing the topic and running around the bush

As I said, they asked Abu Bakr to appoint a successor, he did. They complained he was too harsh so Abu Bakr told them he believed `Umar was the best suited.

PS Khomayni never appointed a successor and your 12th Imam disappeared without successor.
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

Rationalist

Re: Why double standard?
« Reply #25 on: May 10, 2016, 03:23:32 AM »

PS Khomayni never appointed a successor and your 12th Imam disappeared without successor.
Actually he did. He first appointed  Montazeri. Ironically how Khameini got appointed is similar to how Abi Bakr appointed Umar.


Hadrami

Re: Why double standard?
« Reply #26 on: May 10, 2016, 04:10:39 AM »
One of the most stupidest thing i have ever heard. Prophet (saws) the last prophet of Allah dies but does not appoints anyone as his successor while leaving behind millions without a guide whereas any sane and able minded person who leaves behind one of smallest of business or empire appoints his successor before dying. You people even think??

So i guess your Mahdi did the most stupidest thing by "leaving behind millions without a guide"??? Don't tell me he directly appoint your ayatulaat to guide you. Who did he appoint to take care of the shia while he's away?

NB: This point does not deviate from the topic.
« Last Edit: May 10, 2016, 04:12:46 AM by Hadrami »

jibt

Re: Why double standard?
« Reply #27 on: May 10, 2016, 04:41:17 AM »
As usual sunnis do not have answers. Visited many forums and none could answer. So basically sunnis are ignorant just like their two lords. Lets c when sunnis can answer. Till then
Was Salam
If not for Ali, Umar would have been perished

Hani

Re: Why double standard?
« Reply #28 on: May 10, 2016, 05:02:57 AM »
If your question was "Why didn't the prophet (saw) appoint a successor by name" then we already answered that. So enough of your nonsense about nobody answering, fear Allah. The prophet (saw) taught a whole generation of pious men, these men were qualified in many fields and they were very loyal to the cause, he (saw) established the laws and instructed them to follow his example in politics and religion, he told them the rights and responsibilities of a leader as well as the subjects and he gave them clear criteria for the man who assumes leadership. All they had to do was pick a man from them who pleases Allah and his messenger, a man who fit the criteria.

Every country in existence today has a constitution and a set of laws, this constitution and these laws inform us of the criteria and qualifications that enable a man to assume authority. However, these written laws and constitutions do not declare the names of the leaders that will rule.
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

Noor-us-Sunnah

Re: Why double standard?
« Reply #29 on: May 10, 2016, 10:49:54 AM »

Ok for instance let accept people were capable enough to appoint their ruler but then what exactly did abu bakr did in 2 and half year of his rule that people were so backtracked that abu bakr had to choose from them a ruler?? Something really must be wrong in his rule that people were no longer capable to select on their own.

Point to ponder.

It is historically recorded that Abu Bakr only chose `Umar because the people asked him to pick a leader and insisted on him.

Once again you speak without knowing thr facts. In truth people considered and challenged the appointment of Umar.

I am still waiting for answer. All you guys are doing are changing the topic and running around the bush

The answer is that on the request of Muslims, and after consultation with prominent Muslims, Abu bakr(AS) appointed Umar(AS) as his successor. As for challenging the appointment of Umar(AS), then no one challenged it due to the imaginary reason that Ali(AS) was appointed as Caliph. No not at all. So it doesn't serves your purpose.



وأخرج ابن عساكر عن يسار بن حمزة قال: َلمَّا َثقِ َ ل أبو بكر اشرف على النَّا ِ س من كوة
فقال: أيها النَّاس إني قد عهدت عهدًا، أفترضون به، فقال النَّاس: رضينا يا خليفة رسول الله،
فقام عليٌ فقال: لا نرضى إلا أن يكون عمر، قال: َفِإنَّهُ عُمَر، ذكر ذلك السيوطي في “تاريخ
الخلفاء”.
Ibn Asakir related that Yasar Ibn Hamzah said: When Abu Bakr got gravely ill, he appeared to people from a small window; he said to them: “O people I have decided to entrust somebody to the caliphate, are you going to accept that ?” The people said: “We accepted that O the Caliph (successor) of the Messenger of Allah.” ^Ali Ibn Abi Talib stood and said: “We will never accept other than ^Umar.” Abu Bakr said: “It will be Umar.” This was mentioned by as-Suyutiyy in the “Tarikh al-Khulafa’”.

Solomon

Re: Why double standard?
« Reply #30 on: May 10, 2016, 12:27:16 PM »


It is historically recorded that Abu Bakr only chose `Umar because the people asked him to pick a leader and insisted on him.
So brother,now those very people had let the sunnah of prophet(s) to go away and asked abu bakr to choose caliph.
"O Apostle! Deliver what has been sent down to you from your Lord; and if you don't do it, you have not delivered His message (at all); and Allah will protect you from the people ..." (Qur'an 5:67)
Messenger of Allah said:
"For whoever I am his mawla, 'Ali is his mawla."

Noor-us-Sunnah

Re: Why double standard?
« Reply #31 on: May 10, 2016, 12:33:30 PM »


It is historically recorded that Abu Bakr only chose `Umar because the people asked him to pick a leader and insisted on him.
So brother,now those very people had let the sunnah of prophet(s) to go away and asked abu bakr to choose caliph.

Nope. It started as, Abu bakr(RA) asked them to choose a leader. But they weren't able to do so, THEN they asked Abu Bakr(RA) to choose for them.

Solomon

Re: Why double standard?
« Reply #32 on: May 10, 2016, 01:20:55 PM »



Nope. It started as, Abu bakr(RA) asked them to choose a leader. But they weren't able to do so, THEN they asked Abu Bakr(RA) to choose for them.
So prophet didn't leave that capable group of people who could elect their caliph
"O Apostle! Deliver what has been sent down to you from your Lord; and if you don't do it, you have not delivered His message (at all); and Allah will protect you from the people ..." (Qur'an 5:67)
Messenger of Allah said:
"For whoever I am his mawla, 'Ali is his mawla."

Noor-us-Sunnah

Re: Why double standard?
« Reply #33 on: May 10, 2016, 02:20:30 PM »
Nope. It started as, Abu bakr(RA) asked them to choose a leader. But they weren't able to do so, THEN they asked Abu Bakr(RA) to choose for them.
So prophet didn't leave that capable group of people who could elect their caliph
He(SAWS) did, but the eligible ones were so humble that when they were nominated, they would refuse and would suggest someone else. Hence, Abubakr(As) was asked to do the job for them.


Solomon

Re: Why double standard?
« Reply #34 on: May 10, 2016, 02:33:36 PM »
Nope. It started as, Abu bakr(RA) asked them to choose a leader. But they weren't able to do so, THEN they asked Abu Bakr(RA) to choose for them.
So prophet didn't leave that capable group of people who could elect their caliph
He(SAWS) did, but the eligible ones were so humble that when they were nominated, they would refuse and would suggest someone else. Hence, Abubakr(As) was asked to do the job for them.
So in humbleness abu bakr was less than those people?
   or
Abu bakr should have ordered that it is the sunnah of prophet(s) you must adhere and complete the election?
   
"O Apostle! Deliver what has been sent down to you from your Lord; and if you don't do it, you have not delivered His message (at all); and Allah will protect you from the people ..." (Qur'an 5:67)
Messenger of Allah said:
"For whoever I am his mawla, 'Ali is his mawla."

Noor-us-Sunnah

Re: Why double standard?
« Reply #35 on: May 10, 2016, 02:38:42 PM »
So in humbleness abu bakr was less than those people?
   or
Abu bakr should have ordered that it is the sunnah of prophet(s) you must adhere and complete the election?
Abu Bakr(AS) was humble, when he was nominated for Caliphate. But when it came for appointing his successor, why should he be humble? Can you elaborate?

Abu bakr(AS), did what was best for the Ummah, He did make shura which was the Sunnah of Prophet(SAWS) and Sahaba including Ali(AS) accepted it, so people who came later have no value to object it.

Solomon

Re: Why double standard?
« Reply #36 on: May 10, 2016, 02:47:20 PM »

Abu Bakr(AS) was humble, when he was nominated for Caliphate. But when it came for appointing his successor, why should he be humble? Can you elaborate?

He should have been humble as humbleness is characteristic of momin but yes your question remains why he should be humble......lol
Abu bakr(AS), did what was best for the Ummah, He did make shura which was the Sunnah of Prophet(SAWS) and Sahaba including Ali(AS) accepted it, so people who came later have no value to object it.
When prophet ordered for election then abu bakr is no one to break order of Prophet(s) and directly nominate due to being non-humble or due to any reason.
« Last Edit: May 10, 2016, 02:49:39 PM by Solomon »
"O Apostle! Deliver what has been sent down to you from your Lord; and if you don't do it, you have not delivered His message (at all); and Allah will protect you from the people ..." (Qur'an 5:67)
Messenger of Allah said:
"For whoever I am his mawla, 'Ali is his mawla."

Noor-us-Sunnah

Re: Why double standard?
« Reply #37 on: May 10, 2016, 04:13:30 PM »

Abu Bakr(AS) was humble, when he was nominated for Caliphate. But when it came for appointing his successor, why should he be humble? Can you elaborate?

He should have been humble as humbleness is characteristic of momin but yes your question remains why he should be humble......lol
I asked that in the context of not appointing his successor, these silly answers show that you have got no rational answer.  It's well known fact that Abu Bakr(RA) was one of the most humble Sahaba who walked on earth.


Quote
When prophet ordered for election then abu bakr is no one to break order of Prophet(s) and directly nominate due to being non-humble or due to any reason.
No, Prophet(SAWS) did not "ORDER" for election. Read Islamic History from the books of momineen(Ahlus-sunnah) since you have no idea about the correct history.
« Last Edit: May 10, 2016, 04:20:24 PM by Noor-us-Sunnah »

Optimus Prime

Re: Why double standard?
« Reply #38 on: May 10, 2016, 04:29:18 PM »
As usual sunnis do not have answers. Visited many forums and none could answer. So basically sunnis are ignorant just like their two lords. Lets c when sunnis can answer. Till then
Was Salam

Sweet-cheeks, you seem to be rejecting what we've reminded you time and time again.

The two examples are not quite the same because Abu Bakr (RA) designated Umar (RA) to be next leader, and the only companion by name to my knowledge who expressed concerns on behalf of some people (not disapproval) was Talha (RA). Abu Bakr (RA) told him that Umar's (RA) strictness will mellow down due to the heavy burden of leadership.

So, the onus is on you to provide the proof where Umar (RA) was selected without consultation. I am asking you for the third time now.

Please. :)
« Last Edit: May 10, 2016, 04:31:10 PM by Imam Ali »

jibt

Re: Why double standard?
« Reply #39 on: May 10, 2016, 10:18:40 PM »
So prophet developed n made progress thus he let people choose (which is totally false and lie) then abu bakr ruled and people were backtracked and no longer could decide thus he willed for umar.

Ali (as) never considered either of them to be suitable for caliphate as made clear in sermon 3 of nahjul balagah.

Then abu bakr himself confessed he is deviated and tricked by shaitan so people shud correct him. I mean what kind of person did people appoint who could not guide himself let alone guide an entire ummah.

Umar himself was ignorant and could not solve most of the problems thus said O Allah do not put me under situation where Abul Hasan is not there or If not for Ali umar would have perished meaning made mistakes n ended in Hell.

So prophet (saws) left it for people thus people chose abu bakr even though Bani Hashim n Ansars objected his appointment.

Abu bakr chose Umar which was against Sunnah den Umar went against Abu Bakr n formed a Shura of 6 people.

Only person who was chosen by everyone was Ali (as).

Sunnis have no answer but to play with words whereas prophet (saws) never left Medina unless he chose someone as his (saws) deputy even if he (saws) was going for few days and here sunnis claim that when he (saws) was leaving for forever left the ummah without appointing anyone. Come on use some logic and brain.
If not for Ali, Umar would have been perished

 

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