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Article about Qada wal Qadar

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Article about Qada wal Qadar
« on: November 13, 2015, 11:29:47 AM »
Salam

I think an article should be created explaining the Sunni position of Al Qada wal Qadar(القضاء والقدر) .
It is one of the Issue that The shias mock Sunnis about.
Saying that Sunnis believes Allah created human being like a Robot and all what we do is already planned by Allah and So if Allah punish us of our Wrong deeds ,then he is not "Aadil" since he is the one who created us and designed in a way that we must commit those acts.

So I think there should be article explaining these things in details.

Hani

Re: Article about Qada wal Qadar
« Reply #1 on: November 13, 2015, 03:23:42 PM »
A philosophical article refuting the Qadariyyah you say? Never wrote one on predestination before.
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

MuslimAnswers

Re: Article about Qada wal Qadar
« Reply #2 on: November 13, 2015, 07:17:07 PM »
^

Maybe an article can be written, but we Sunnis say very simply that our choices are real, and we also say that there is only One Lord who Creates every contingent event and thing.

If anyone calls to the belief that (Divine) Creating and Originating are Actions of beings other than Allah, while knowing what his words imply, he is not a Muslim, end of story.
« Last Edit: November 13, 2015, 07:42:23 PM by MuslimAnswers »

Khaled

Re: Article about Qada wal Qadar
« Reply #3 on: November 13, 2015, 07:54:48 PM »
^

Maybe an article can be written, but we Sunnis say very simply that our choices are real, and we also say that there is only One Lord who Creates every contingent event and thing.

If anyone calls to the belief that (Divine) Creating and Originating are Actions of beings other than Allah, while knowing what his words imply, he is not a Muslim, end of story.

You need to be a little more detailed than that akhi:

The Asha'ris say that all of our actions are created by Allah but we have a choice in our actions.  The kuffaar say that we create our own actions or it is "nature", while the Mu'tazilah say that Allah created in us the ability to create; and while some scholars have declared them kuffar, the overwhelming position has been that this is an innovation and not something that causes someone to leave the fold of Islam
كلُّ سُلامى من الناس عليه صدقة كلَّ يوم تطلع فيه الشمس، تَعدلُ بين اثنين صدقة، وتعين الرَّجل في دابَّته فتحمله عليها أو ترفع له عليها متاعَه صدقة، والكلمةُ الطيِّبة صدقة، وبكلِّ خطوة تَمشيها إلى الصلاة صدقة، وتُميط الأذى عن الطريق صدقة

Hani

Re: Article about Qada wal Qadar
« Reply #4 on: November 13, 2015, 09:19:11 PM »
I heard some Mu`tazillah say it's a thing between the two things. Neither are we controlled as the Jabriyyah say nor are we free from God's plan.

These philosophical discussions are usually useless.
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

Khaled

Re: Article about Qada wal Qadar
« Reply #5 on: November 13, 2015, 09:20:39 PM »
I heard some Mu`tazillah say it's a thing between the two things. Neither are we controlled as the Jabriyyah say nor are we free from God's plan.

These philosophical discussions are usually useless.

I agree, but I just wanted to clarify that because it was related to a hukm of takfeer, whether any of it is helpful or even makes sense is a different story
كلُّ سُلامى من الناس عليه صدقة كلَّ يوم تطلع فيه الشمس، تَعدلُ بين اثنين صدقة، وتعين الرَّجل في دابَّته فتحمله عليها أو ترفع له عليها متاعَه صدقة، والكلمةُ الطيِّبة صدقة، وبكلِّ خطوة تَمشيها إلى الصلاة صدقة، وتُميط الأذى عن الطريق صدقة

Hani

Re: Article about Qada wal Qadar
« Reply #6 on: November 13, 2015, 10:41:27 PM »
I wouldn't say Kouffar, but there is a stronger opinion and a weaker opinion, only one of the two is correct so its holders are guided and their opponents are astray. Muslim scholars in past times were very conservative so any new opinions/views would be labeled as Kufr/Fisq in the blink of an eye, then bloodshed.
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

Khaled

Re: Article about Qada wal Qadar
« Reply #7 on: November 13, 2015, 10:58:37 PM »
I wouldn't say Kouffar, but there is a stronger opinion and a weaker opinion, only one of the two is correct so its holders are guided and their opponents are astray. Muslim scholars in past times were very conservative so any new opinions/views would be labeled as Kufr/Fisq in the blink of an eye, then bloodshed.

LOL, it seems in my attempt to clarify, all I did was make things more confusing.

Traditionally, the Ash'aris have said there's three ways of looking at it, 1) Allah creates all of our actions, 2) we create our actions or it is due to "nature" 3) Allah created an ability in us to create our actions.  They said position 1 was the Sunnah, position 2 was kufr and position 3 was bid'ah.  I just wanted to clarify that because the way the brother phrased makes it look like both positions 2 and 3 would be kufr.

The reason I mentioned it was actually to avoid takfeer, not to add another reason to do so...
« Last Edit: November 13, 2015, 11:01:05 PM by Khaled »
كلُّ سُلامى من الناس عليه صدقة كلَّ يوم تطلع فيه الشمس، تَعدلُ بين اثنين صدقة، وتعين الرَّجل في دابَّته فتحمله عليها أو ترفع له عليها متاعَه صدقة، والكلمةُ الطيِّبة صدقة، وبكلِّ خطوة تَمشيها إلى الصلاة صدقة، وتُميط الأذى عن الطريق صدقة

Re: Article about Qada wal Qadar
« Reply #8 on: November 14, 2015, 12:11:33 AM »
I heard some Mu`tazillah say it's a thing between the two things. Neither are we controlled as the Jabriyyah say nor are we free from God's plan.

These philosophical discussions are usually useless.

That is rather the Shia view.
And they have a hadith from Imam jafar that: (لاجبر ولاتفويض ولاكن الأمر بين الأمرين)

And I thought there are 3 main views on this :
1.The Asha' ris who are  the Jabiriya ( And I was thinking all Sunnis belong to this belief ??)

2.Mu'tazillah who believes Humans have free will and all what we do Allah has no any ability on it or he cannot control our actions.

3.The Shias who Believe in between the two as stated above.

So what I mean is the view that is held by Sunnis should be explained in details in the light of Qur'anic verses and hadiths.

I have learnt the Shia view in details and so now curious in understanding the majority Sunni view on this issue.

Hani

Re: Article about Qada wal Qadar
« Reply #9 on: November 14, 2015, 02:15:07 AM »
well tbh, I only specialize in some matters related to Tashayyu`, only recently did I decide to start reading about Islamic sects and the sayings of various groups, so when I get there maybe i'll write something on it.
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

MuslimAnswers

Re: Article about Qada wal Qadar
« Reply #10 on: November 14, 2015, 05:52:37 AM »
^

Salam Alaykum,

For one thing the issue is that the definitions of the opponent many a times are not clear, which is why the mention was made that the one who believes in Divine Creating and Originating for other than Allah is the one who is outside the pale of Islam.

As an example, the OP mentioned that he thought Sunnis were Jabbriyah based on what he knew- which is again Shia propaganda as far as our Sunni definitions are concerned, since we do believe that our choices are real, and they exist. However, the Shias and others seems to have a problem with the 'Creation' of our actions, and the level of deviance can only be gauged from author to author, and what is their position with respect to certain Verses of the Quran, etc. [but from a rational perspective, their position is untenable whatever level of 'Creation' they give to the creature].

Re: Article about Qada wal Qadar
« Reply #11 on: November 14, 2015, 07:56:28 PM »
well tbh, I only specialize in some matters related to Tashayyu`, only recently did I decide to start reading about Islamic sects and the sayings of various groups, so when I get there maybe i'll write something on it.

This is one of the Important part of Aqeeda And may be you should do a research on it.

Re: Article about Qada wal Qadar
« Reply #12 on: November 14, 2015, 08:01:28 PM »
^

Salam Alaykum,

For one thing the issue is that the definitions of the opponent many a times are not clear, which is why the mention was made that the one who believes in Divine Creating and Originating for other than Allah is the one who is outside the pale of Islam.

As an example, the OP mentioned that he thought Sunnis were Jabbriyah based on what he knew- which is again Shia propaganda as far as our Sunni definitions are concerned, since we do believe that our choices are real, and they exist. However, the Shias and others seems to have a problem with the 'Creation' of our actions, and the level of deviance can only be gauged from author to author, and what is their position with respect to certain Verses of the Quran, etc. [but from a rational perspective, their position is untenable whatever level of 'Creation' they give to the creature].

It would be great if these opinions are explained in details as an article.

 

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