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12 Reasons to Leave Shiasm

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zaid_ibn_ali

Re: 12 Reasons to Leave Shiasm
« Reply #40 on: December 29, 2016, 03:14:11 PM »
Other factors could be weak or fabricated reports.

Ijtaba

Re: 12 Reasons to Leave Shiasm
« Reply #41 on: January 06, 2017, 07:17:01 PM »
Other factors could be weak or fabricated reports.

How could we know which reports are weak & fabricated from the authentic ones as we cannot compare these reports with narrations reported from Shia Imams (a.s) in Ahlul Sunnah sources because Ahlul Sunnah has few reports from Shia Imams (a.s).

And also Shia Hadith Grading System is not accepted and considered useless by Ahlul Sunnah. So is there any method by which we can know which Shia reports are authentic and which reports are weak or fabricated?

zaid_ibn_ali

Re: 12 Reasons to Leave Shiasm
« Reply #42 on: January 06, 2017, 09:45:59 PM »
Other factors could be weak or fabricated reports.

How could we know which reports are weak & fabricated from the authentic ones as we cannot compare these reports with narrations reported from Shia Imams (a.s) in Ahlul Sunnah sources because Ahlul Sunnah has few reports from Shia Imams (a.s).

And also Shia Hadith Grading System is not accepted and considered useless by Ahlul Sunnah. So is there any method by which we can know which Shia reports are authentic and which reports are weak or fabricated?

I meant these are factors which shia can apply.
Apologies if I misunderstood your question.
I can't see a reconcilatory way for ahlus sunnah to authenticate reports found solely in shia sources & vice versa.
Each side can merely point out what the opposing groups scholars have said regarding authenticity of there own traditions to sometimes use in an argument.

Hani

Re: 12 Reasons to Leave Shiasm
« Reply #43 on: January 07, 2017, 01:15:46 AM »
Other factors could be weak or fabricated reports.

How could we know which reports are weak & fabricated from the authentic ones as we cannot compare these reports with narrations reported from Shia Imams (a.s) in Ahlul Sunnah sources because Ahlul Sunnah has few reports from Shia Imams (a.s).

And also Shia Hadith Grading System is not accepted and considered useless by Ahlul Sunnah. So is there any method by which we can know which Shia reports are authentic and which reports are weak or fabricated?

The Shia have no system, they developed one much later. It is clear from Tusi's book on Rijal that he had no sources to judge who is reliable and who isn't.

As for Sunnah, we have quite a bunch of narrations from Ahlul-Bayt, but the Shia have way too many due to countless additions and fabrications. You can compare a lot of Fiqhi positions but not all.
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

GreatChineseFall

Re: 12 Reasons to Leave Shiasm
« Reply #44 on: January 07, 2017, 09:02:43 PM »
And also Shia Hadith Grading System is not accepted and considered useless by Ahlul Sunnah. So is there any method by which we can know which Shia reports are authentic and which reports are weak or fabricated?

It's not only the system, it's also most narrators that are a problem.

Ijtaba

Re: 12 Reasons to Leave Shiasm
« Reply #45 on: January 11, 2017, 11:05:55 PM »
The Shia have no system, they developed one much later. It is clear from Tusi's book on Rijal that he had no sources to judge who is reliable and who isn't.

As for Sunnah, we have quite a bunch of narrations from Ahlul-Bayt, but the Shia have way too many due to countless additions and fabrications. You can compare a lot of Fiqhi positions but not all.

Shias do not have reliable method/system of checking authenticity of narrations due to lack of information on reliability of narrators. So what should be proper/correct way of dealing with Shia narrations?

In such situation I think only those Shia narrations will be acceptable & considered authentic which agrees with Al-Quran and authentic (and agreed upon) Ahlul Sunnah ahadiths.

Hani

Re: 12 Reasons to Leave Shiasm
« Reply #46 on: January 12, 2017, 05:21:55 AM »
To be honest, Shia narrations to me, are like stories whose authenticity can never be proven. You can assume the chain is not even there because a lot of them are likely invented.

Comparing to Quran won't do you any good. You can only compare to Sunnah or narrations from Banu Hashim if found. That's still not very helpful since even if you find a Shia narration by Sadiq that matches a prophetic narration, that doesn't necessarily mean Sadiq actually said it.

Early Kufan Shia came up with tens of books filled with contradictions in Fiqh and Aqidah,  each guy claiming to have books written by AhlulBayt or their followers. Later Persian scholars like Kulayni collected whatever they liked from these random books to create their own works (I.e Al Kafi).

Kufan books were a mess of contradictions and exaggerations by a large number of Shia sects, each claiming to be upon truth. When the likes of Kulayni collected from those books, he made sure to delete all that conflicts with his beleifs, still these later books were loaded with contradictions themselves which caused a crisis for Tusi that he had to stick to Taqiyyah since he failed to reconcile.
« Last Edit: January 12, 2017, 05:29:05 AM by Hani »
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

Rationalist

Re: 12 Reasons to Leave Shiasm
« Reply #47 on: January 12, 2017, 03:40:38 PM »


Early Kufan Shia came up with tens of books filled with contradictions in Fiqh and Aqidah,  each guy claiming to have books written by AhlulBayt or their followers. Later Persian scholars like Kulayni collected whatever they liked from these random books to create their own works (I.e Al Kafi).

Kufan books were a mess of contradictions and exaggerations by a large number of Shia sects, each claiming to be upon truth. When the likes of Kulayni collected from those books, he made sure to delete all that conflicts with his beleifs, still these later books were loaded with contradictions themselves which caused a crisis for Tusi that he had to stick to Taqiyyah since he failed to reconcile.

That's what happened when Shaykh Tusi gathered Tahdhib al-Ahkam. It had so many contradictions in fiqh that he decided to do his own guesswork and compile Al-Istibsar. With this guess work we have the 'Jafari fiqh'.

 

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