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Ibn Taymiyyah: Verses on not praying while drunk were revealed for Ali

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whoaretheshia

إطهخٔ اشقف ٗهص اًن ٌٕنٕقذ اي إًهؼذ ٗرح ٖساكس ىرَأٔ جلصنا إتشقذ ل إُيآ ٍٚزنا آٚأ اٚ ٗهػ ٙف ٗناؼذ ا لضَأ ذقٔ

Translation: “Allah has revealed for Ali {O you who have believed, do not approach prayer
while you are intoxicated until you know what you are saying - 4:43} when he prayed and recited and then got mixed up.” [Manhaaj as-Sunnah (7/172)] 

TSN claims that this is acceptable, because it was before the prohibition of alcohol. However, it is an absolute insult to claim Ali ibn Abi Talib not only drank alcohol, but approached Salah while he was drunk. Put aside the fact the tradition in question is weak (Tirmidhi). Many of the companions did not consume alcohol, and in fact, claiming someone who was adopted and raised by the Prophet (saw) not only consumed it, but was a drunk and didn't know what he was reciting in his Salah due to being intoxicated is an incredible insult.

My question to you is, do you believe Ali ibn Abi Talib tried to offer Salah when he was intoxicated and not aware of what he was saying (i.e so drunk, he was not even aware of the words he was reciting)?
« Last Edit: December 10, 2017, 06:17:12 AM by whoaretheshia »
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whoaretheshia

Re: Ibn Taymiyyah: Verses on not praying while drunk were revealed for Ali
« Reply #1 on: December 10, 2017, 06:12:29 AM »
A request: Please don't derail the thread, stay on topic.
DISCLAIMER: I AM AWAY UNTIL THE START OF THE NEW YEAR, PM ME IF I OWE YOU A REPLY, MAY ALLAH HAVE MERCY ON ALL OF US, FI AMANILLAH
" O you who have believed, be persistently standing firm in justice.. even if it be against yourselves... So follow not [personal] inclination, lest you not be jus

Hani

Re: Ibn Taymiyyah: Verses on not praying while drunk were revealed for Ali
« Reply #2 on: December 10, 2017, 08:24:43 AM »
If there is evidence that it was revealed for him or if he drank according to any acceptable evidence. Then there is no reason to reject except if one were to view the man as infallible. It wasn't a cardinal sin to drink before God forbade it, nor is this any less of an insult than your sect claiming the Prophet (saw) wives or closest companions whom he praised and loved were corrupt.
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

Abu Muhammad

Re: Ibn Taymiyyah: Verses on not praying while drunk were revealed for Ali
« Reply #3 on: December 10, 2017, 08:48:45 AM »
If there is evidence that it was revealed for him or if he drank according to any acceptable evidence. Then there is no reason to reject except if one were to view the man as infallible. It wasn't a cardinal sin to drink before God forbade it, nor is this any less of an insult than your sect claiming the Prophet (saw) wives or closest companions whom he praised and loved were corrupt.

Very well said!

furhan

Re: Ibn Taymiyyah: Verses on not praying while drunk were revealed for Ali
« Reply #4 on: December 10, 2017, 10:57:32 AM »
إطهخٔ اشقف ٗهص اًن ٌٕنٕقذ اي إًهؼذ ٗرح ٖساكس ىرَأٔ جلصنا إتشقذ ل إُيآ ٍٚزنا آٚأ اٚ ٗهػ ٙف ٗناؼذ ا لضَأ ذقٔ

Translation: “Allah has revealed for Ali {O you who have believed, do not approach prayer
while you are intoxicated until you know what you are saying - 4:43} when he prayed and recited and then got mixed up.” [Manhaaj as-Sunnah (7/172)] 

TSN claims that this is acceptable, because it was before the prohibition of alcohol. However, it is an absolute insult to claim Ali ibn Abi Talib not only drank alcohol, but approached Salah while he was drunk. Put aside the fact the tradition in question is weak (Tirmidhi). Many of the companions did not consume alcohol, and in fact, claiming someone who was adopted and raised by the Prophet (saw) not only consumed it, but was a drunk and didn't know what he was reciting in his Salah due to being intoxicated is an incredible insult.

My question to you is, do you believe Ali ibn Abi Talib tried to offer Salah when he was intoxicated and not aware of what he was saying (i.e so drunk, he was not even aware of the words he was reciting)?

I was taught that the narrator made a mistake in saying that the person who drank was Ali (ra). The event did happen - It just wasn’t Sayyiduna Ali RA.

But let’s be honest, had it been Abu Bakr/Umar/Uthman - I think you’d have absolutely slammed them before even looking at reliability.

Hadrami

Re: Ibn Taymiyyah: Verses on not praying while drunk were revealed for Ali
« Reply #5 on: December 10, 2017, 12:24:40 PM »
I was taught that the narrator made a mistake in saying that the person who drank was Ali (ra). The event did happen - It just wasn’t Sayyiduna Ali RA.

But let’s be honest, had it been Abu Bakr/Umar/Uthman - I think you’d have absolutely slammed them before even looking at reliability.
I dont know how reliable it is, but i was taught it happened to Umar RA before the prohibition.

MuslimK

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Re: Ibn Taymiyyah: Verses on not praying while drunk were revealed for Ali
« Reply #6 on: December 10, 2017, 02:41:28 PM »
someone who was adopted and raised by the Prophet (saw) not only consumed it, but was a drunk and didn't know what he was reciting in his Salah due to being intoxicated is an incredible insult.

Sorry off-topic but was Ali (رضی الله عنه) raised by the Prophet (صلی الله علیه و سلم) or his father Abu Talib?

« Last Edit: December 10, 2017, 07:54:44 PM by MuslimK »
در خلافت میل نیست ای بی‌خبر
میل کی آید ز بوبکر و عمر
میل اگر بودی در آن دو مقتدا
هر دو کردندی پسر را پیشوا

عطار نِیشابوری

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Optimus Prime

Re: Ibn Taymiyyah: Verses on not praying while drunk were revealed for Ali
« Reply #7 on: December 11, 2017, 04:09:50 PM »
What is the narration he is referring to in the opening post?

Which Hadith in Tirmidhi?

Optimus Prime

Re: Ibn Taymiyyah: Verses on not praying while drunk were revealed for Ali
« Reply #8 on: December 11, 2017, 04:39:18 PM »
An-Nisa 4:43

Tafseer of the verse:

“O you who believe! Approach not As-Salât (the prayer) when you are in a drunken state until you know (the meaning) of what you utter,...” [The Noble Qur’aan, Soorah An-Nisa 4:43]

It was narrated from ‘Alee ibn Abee Taalib (may Allaah be pleased with him) that an Ansaaree man invited him and ‘Abdur – Rahmaan ibn ‘Awf, and offered them wine before the prohibition of Khamr was revealed. ‘Alee lead them in Maghrib prayer, and recited: Say ‘O you disbelievers!... (Al – Kaafiroon 109), but he was confused in it. Then the verse, ‘O you who believe! Approach not Salaat when you are intoxicated until you know (the meaning) of what you utter (An – Nisaa’ 4:43)’ was revealed.”

[Sunan Aboo Daawood, Volume 4, Book 25, Hadeeth Number 3,671, p. 222; Classed as Hasan by Haafiz Aboo Taahir Zubayr ‘Alee Za’i, Darussalam Publishers, [English Translation], 2008]

Aboo ‘Abdur – Rahmaan As – Sulamee narrated that ‘Alee ibn Abee Taalib (may Allaah be pleased with him) said, “‘Abdur – Rahmaan ibn ‘Awf prepared some food for which he invited us, and he gave us some wine to drink. The wine began (to) affect us when it was time for Salaat. So they encouraged me (to lead) and I recited: ‘Say: O you disbelievers! I do not worship what you worship, and we worship what you worship’ – and Allaah, the Most High, revealed, ‘O you who believe! Do not approach Salaat when you are in a drunken state until you know what you are saying (An – Nisaa’ 4:43)’.”

[Jaami’ at – Tirmithee, Volume 5, Book 44, Hadeeth number 3,026; Imaam Tirmithee said, “This hadeeth is Hasan Ghareeb Saheeh.” Classed as Hasan by Haafiz Aboo Taahir Zubayr ‘Alee Za’i, Darussalam Publishers, [English Translation], 2008]

Haafiz Aboo Taahir Zubayr ‘Alee Za’i commented on the hadeeth as follows:

“A drunkard loses senses and consciousness in the state of being drunk; in this state he does not know what he is saying, and he is unaware of the positive or negative promise with Allaah. As ‘Alee was drunk, he said some words in favour of the disbelievers unknowingly; and this Aayah of Soorat An – Nisaa’ was revealed concerning this.

It is also known from this Hadih that if one is overwhelmed by sleep and they are unaware of what is coming out of their mouth, one should then delay the prayer until the senses and consciousness has returned to their normal state.”
« Last Edit: December 11, 2017, 04:43:05 PM by Optimus Prime »

Noor-us-Sunnah

Re: Ibn Taymiyyah: Verses on not praying while drunk were revealed for Ali
« Reply #9 on: December 13, 2017, 04:12:05 AM »
If there is evidence that it was revealed for him or if he drank according to any acceptable evidence. Then there is no reason to reject except if one were to view the man as infallible. It wasn't a cardinal sin to drink before God forbade it, nor is this any less of an insult than your sect claiming the Prophet (saw) wives or closest companions whom he praised and loved were corrupt.

Nicely put Akhee.

Also I would like to add that before the prohibition of alcohol consumption, consuming alcohol was not a problem nor would it effect the status of a person. Take example of the Real Sayyid al-Shuhadah Hamza(ra).

'Ali b. Abu Talib reported; There fell to my lot along with Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) an old she-camel from the spoils of Badr. Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) granted me another camel. I made them kneel down one day at the door of an Ansari, and I wanted to carry on them Idhkhir (a kind of grass) in order to sell that. There was with me a goldsmith of the tribe of Qainuqa'. I saught to give a wedding feast (on the occasion of marriage with) Fatima with the help of that (the price accrued from the sale of this grass). And Hamza b. 'Abd al-Muttalib was busy in drinking in that house in the company of a singing girl who was singing to him. She said:
Hamza, get up for slaughtering the fat she-camels. Hamza attacked them with the sword and cut off their humps and ripped their haunches, and then took out their livers. I said to Ibn Shihab: Did he take out anything from the hump? He said: He cut off the humps altogether. Ibn Shihab reported 'Ali having said: I saw this (horrible) sight and it shocked me, and I came to Allah's Apostle (ﷺ) and there was Zaid b, Haritha with him and communicated to him this news. He came in the company of Zaid and I also went along with him and he went to Hamza and he expressed anger with him. Hamza raised his eyes and said: Are you (not) but the servants of my father? Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) turned back on his heels (on hearing this) until he went away from them.[Sahih Muslim Book 23, Hadith 4879]

 

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