TwelverShia.net Forum

plz explain this words of Sheikh Ghumari on Muawiyyah(r.a)?

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Ahlus_sunnah

plz explain this words of Sheikh Ghumari on Muawiyyah(r.a)?
« on: February 10, 2015, 06:45:35 PM »

الوجه الثامن : ويحتمل أنه لم يقبَل رؤيةَ أهلِ الشام وشهادتَهم لفسْقهم أيضاً وخروجِهم عن الإمام الحق ، ومحاربتِهم للهِ ورسوله ، وأفعالِهم القبيحةِ مع أهلِ البيْت وشُؤْمِهم على الإسلام والمسلمين بنصْرة معاويةَ الباغي على الإمام الحق ، والفاتك بآل البيت النبَوي بإجماع المسلمين كما حكاه النووي وغيرُه
لا سيّما وقد ثبَت عن الشوَامّ في عصرِ معاوية تَمالؤهم على الكذِب وشهادةِ الزُّور كما وقَع في قصّتِهم مع صاحب الجمَل : حيث دخَل رجلٌ مِن أهل الكوفة دمَشْق وهو على بعيرٍ له ، وذلك حالَ منصرَفِهم عن صفّينَ فتعلَّق به رجلٌ من الشام ، فقال : هذه ناقتي أخذتَ مني بصِفّينَ ، فارتفَع أمرهُما إلى معاوية ، وأقام الشامي خمسِين رجلاً بيْنه يشهَدون له أنها ناقته ، فقضى معاوية على الكوفي وأمَره بتسليم الناقة إليه ، فقال الكوفي : أصلَحكَ الله إنه جملٌ و ليس بناقة ، فقال معاوية : هذا حكم قد مضى
ودس إلى الكوفي بعد تفرُّقِهم ، فأحضَره وسأله عن بعيرِه فدفَعه إليه ، وقال له : أبلِغْ عليًّا أني أقاتِله بمائةِ ألفٍ ما فيهم مَن يُفرّق بين الناقةِ والجمل
وكذلك اختبر طاعتهم له ، فصلى بهم عند مَسيرِهم إلى صفّينَ الجمعةَ يومَ الأربعاء فوافَقوه على ذلك
وكان يأمُرهم أن يقُوموا في المحافِل فيرْوُون أحاديثَ يُلقّنهم إياها ويدّعُون أنهم سمِعوها مِن الصحابة وهي في فضْل الشام ، وأنهم على الحق ، وفي ذمّ أهلِ العراق وأنهم على الباطل ، ولذلك كثُرت الأحاديثُ الموضوعةُ في فضْل الشامِ مع أنها مرويةٌ برجالِ الصحيح ، لأنها مكذوبةٌ مِن الأصل ، تحسيناً مِن الحفاظ للظنّ بمعاوية وحزْبه ، مع أنها ظاهرةُ الوضْع محقَّقة البطلانِ لمخالفِتها للواقعِ والمشاهدةِ
وحدَّثهم معاويةُ أيضا بأن عليًّا عليه السلام هو الذي قتَل عمَّارِ بن ياسر رضي الله عن ه، لما شاع عند قتْله أن النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم قال : عمار تقتُله الفئةُ الباغيةُ  ، وقال : إنما قتَله الذي جاءَ به إلى القتال ، فصدَّقوه في ذلك واستمروا معه مُعتقدين أنه على الحق ، وأمَرهم بلعْن علي عليه السلام فأطاعوه واعتقَدوا أن ذلك سُنة
وحدَّثهم أن بني أميّة هم أقاربُ النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم الذي يرِثونه دون بني هاشِم فصدَّقوه ودامُوا على ذلك الاعتقاد إلى ظهور دولةِ بني العباس ، حتى أقسَموا أنهم ما كانوا يعتقِدون أن للنبي صلى الله عليه وسلم قرابةً يجب نصْرها إلا بني أمية
في أمثال هذا مما هو معروفٌ عن أهل الشام ومقرَّر عند ابن عباس بالمشاهدة والمخالطة والخبْرِ المتواترِ فلذلك لم يعتبِر شهادتَهم
الوجه التاسع : ويحتمل أيضا أنه لم يقبَل حكْمَ معاوية للعَداوة التي كانت بينهما والإذايةِ التي آذى بها معاويةُ آلَ البيت الذين مِنهم ابن عباس رضي الله عنهما ، ويكفي ما فعَله أميرُه بُسْرُ بن أرْطَأة لعَنه الله مِن ذبحِ ابني أخيه الفضلِ بن عباس على صدْر أمهما ، مع سفْك دماءِ المسلمين وهتْك حُرُماتِ أهل المدينة ، وكلُّ ذلك بأمْره


Source: Ahmad Al Ghumari: Tawjihul Anzar: 122-123
İordan: Darun Nafais: 1419


 
ولا يخفاك أن النواصِب كان مَقَرُهم بالشام و البصْرة و الأندلس ، و المقصود مِن هذه الأحاديث الصحيحةِ المتفقِ عليها مع ما تواترَ مِن لعْنِ معاويةَ لعليّ على المنبَر طولَ حياته وحياةِ دولتِه إلى عمرَ بنِ عبد العزيز وقتالِه وبغضِه
فهي مؤيَّدة لتلْك الأحاديث الأخرى ، و يزعُم النواصب أن ذلك ( أعني لعن معاوية لعلي ) كان اجتهاداً ، مع أن النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم يقول في مطلَق الناس : ( لعن المؤمنِ كقتْله ) ، فإذا كان الاجتهاد يدخُل اللعنَ وارتكابَ الكبائر فكلُّ سارقٍ وزانٍ وشاربٍ وقاتلٍ يجوز أن يكون مجتهداً ، فلا حدَّ في الدنيا ولا عقابَ في الآخرة  ، يطَّلع منه أنـه مـنافـقٌ كـافـرٌ
 
Source: Ahmad Al Ghumari: Al Jawabul Mufid: 59
https://archive.org/details/aljawab_almofid

 

Hani

Re: plz explain this words of Sheikh Ghumari on Muawiyyah(r.a)?
« Reply #1 on: February 10, 2015, 08:34:48 PM »
Explanation:


This Ghumari hates Mu`awiyah's guts, since he is an extremist `Alawite and so he will be harsh on Bani Umayyah. He even accused anyone who says "What happened in the Fitnah was an Ijtihad" of being a Nasibi, meaning he accused some of the biggest scholars of Ahlul-Sunnah of being Nasibi since a lot of them as I recall say that it was a matter of Ijtihad.
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

Taha

Re: plz explain this words of Sheikh Ghumari on Muawiyyah(r.a)?
« Reply #2 on: February 10, 2015, 09:35:04 PM »
^ How is cursing the 4th Khalifa from the minbar every Yawm al-Jumu'ah a "matter of ijtihad"?


This is one thing that I really, sincerely, and truly don't understand.  How can one be so angry at Shias for cursing the Sahabah, when you don't have the same anger for Muawiyah (and all of his descendants except for Muawiyah b. Yazeed and `Umar b. `Abd al-Azee) who cursed a very important Sahabi?

Hani

Re: plz explain this words of Sheikh Ghumari on Muawiyyah(r.a)?
« Reply #3 on: February 10, 2015, 10:03:57 PM »
That's a standard position, they'll also say it isn't established that Mu`awiyah cursed `Ali on the Mimbar every Friday (That was Marwan).


But people who research deeply, have different opinions than the basic standard opinion. My opinion is they both hurled insults and verbal abuse at each-other, naturally since they were at war, I don't need an "authentic Hadith" to prove this, but that was a time of Fitnah and confusion may Allah not test us through this.


Was this a sin? It definitely was and so we say:


{Our Lord, forgive us and our brothers who preceded us in faith and put not in our hearts [any] resentment toward those who have believed. Our Lord, indeed You are Kind and Merciful.} [59:10]
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

Rationalist

Re: plz explain this words of Sheikh Ghumari on Muawiyyah(r.a)?
« Reply #4 on: February 11, 2015, 03:53:30 AM »
^ How is cursing the 4th Khalifa from the minbar every Yawm al-Jumu'ah a "matter of ijtihad"?


This is one thing that I really, sincerely, and truly don't understand.  How can one be so angry at Shias for cursing the Sahabah, when you don't have the same anger for Muawiyah (and all of his descendants except for Muawiyah b. Yazeed and `Umar b. `Abd al-Azee) who cursed a very important Sahabi?

The reason is the Sunni scholars don't allow this information to be presented in public. Therefore, the general population isn't told that Muawiyah did this. Instead they are told he is a Sahaba, and that all sahaba must be respected. On top of that many Sunni scholars do not authenticate the ahadith those who curse Ali have cursed the Prophet. Whereas the Ghumaris considered the ahadith as authentic.

Likewise, for the 12ers they have some major scholars who have declared the Quran to be incomplete. However, the general 12er Shia population are not told this. Instead, they say its all made up. On the contrary, the 12er till this day do no have a fatwa that those who declare the Quran to be incomplete as Kaffirs.

Rationalist

Re: plz explain this words of Sheikh Ghumari on Muawiyyah(r.a)?
« Reply #5 on: February 11, 2015, 03:58:11 AM »
Here is more details on the Ghumaris.

As salaamu 'alaikum wa rahmatullahi wa barakaatuh,
>
>Sheikh, i recently heard that you say that the zaidiyyah are Muslims.
>However, i had a look at their beliefs and found out they called Ameer
>Mu'aawiyah r.a. a kaafir. The Ahlus Sunnah wal Jama'a class that as kufr.
>How then can you justify your position on them respected Sheikh?
>
>JazakAllah khair.

> Bismillah,
>
> We class anyone who says" La Ilaha illa Allah, Muhammad Rasul'Allah" as
>a Muslim, regardless of the sect he/she belongs to under the umbrella of
>Islam.
> While we disagree with the Zaydi Shia sect about Muawiya, but that
>disagreement does not invalidate their Islam.
> In fact, the Takfir of Muawiyah was done by some Sunni Ulama such as the
>late Hafeth Sayyed Ahmad bin Assiddiqq, and many other Shuyukh in the past.
> We view that wrong, plain and simple.
>
> Yet, all the Shia sects, 12'ers, Zaydi's and others, including the
>Khawarej, most of the Mutazilah view Muawiyah as non-Muslim, or at a red
>light.
>
> The reason for Sidi Hafeth Ahmad bin Assiddiqq's view is a few Ahadith
>that are authentic in his opinion. Such Ahadith have been narrated and they
>explicitly and clearly declare Muawiyah as non-Muslim. Among the strongest
>narration is one by Imam Balathiri in his Tarikh, with a sanad all of which
>the narrators of Imam Muslim, hence Hafeth Ahmad declared him Kafer.
> This hadith needs a Hafith to authenticate otherwise it is discarded.
>Obviously Hafeth Ahmad authenticated it, as all its narrators as the same
>narrators of Imam Muslim. Yet other scholars cast doubt on the whole
>narration, not the isnad.
>
> Another reason Hafeth Ahmad and Zaydi's declared Muawiyah as Kafer is:
>the condirmed act of Muawiyah of cursing and ordering the cursing of Imam
>Ali. Such Ahadith are narrated in authetic isnaad in Sahih Muslim, and
>Sunun Ibn Majah, and almost every single Islamic history reference. If you
>add that fact to the hadith Al Hakem narrated which says: Who curses Ali
>curses me, and who curses me curses Allah", you would see clearly who
>Hafeth Ahmad and the Zaydi's and others went to such extent. There are many
>other Ahadith to that effect also and countering them as well.
>
> While disagreeing with such result, we see it as wrong, as it is based
>on weak evidence, and the best judgment in this case should be more careful
>and giving the benefit of the doubt, and sticking with most of the
>narrations that are authentic that did not mention such thing, on the
>contrary.
>
> Bottom line:
> Since those groups and scholars depend on an explicit prophetic
>narration in their judgement, we cannot declare them anything because of
>this opinion specifically. Though we disagree and believe that such a
>narration cannot possibly be true, besides, confirming such thing or
>denying it, will not affect our own Iman, nor will it increase it
>personally, and Allah will not ask us about the Iman and deeds of Muawiayh.
>
> The best and safest is to stick to Ahlus Sunnah's stands, and Allah
>knows best.
> Our stand is to consider Muawiyah a Sahabi without overglorification,
>and avoid entirely the events or wrongs he did. Also we view that cussing
>him or calling him names in not permissible and sinful.
>
> Shaykh Ahmad
>
>

sawaaiq

Re: plz explain this words of Sheikh Ghumari on Muawiyyah(r.a)?
« Reply #6 on: February 12, 2015, 01:56:02 AM »
Who is Shaykh Ahmad?

sawaaiq

Re: plz explain this words of Sheikh Ghumari on Muawiyyah(r.a)?
« Reply #7 on: February 12, 2015, 02:02:22 AM »
Ahmad al-Ghumari was Barelwi nutjob who used to sanctify Ibn Arabi, ironically he made takfeer of Abdul-Nasser, while those who hypocritically praise him like Adnan Ibrahim and Hasan al-Maliki support Nasser's successor, Sisi.

Rationalist

Re: plz explain this words of Sheikh Ghumari on Muawiyyah(r.a)?
« Reply #8 on: February 12, 2015, 02:40:02 AM »
Barelwi ? How he wasn't from the Indo-Pak area. Also, Barelwis defend Muawiyah. Look at Raza Khan's fatwa those who insult Muawiyah are from the dogs of hell.

sawaaiq

Re: plz explain this words of Sheikh Ghumari on Muawiyyah(r.a)?
« Reply #9 on: February 12, 2015, 03:31:14 AM »
Quote
Barelwi ? How he wasn't from the Indo-Pak area

Many Arab ghulat Sufis share similar beliefs with the Barelwis like sanctifying Hallaj and Ibn Arabi

Quote
Also, Barelwis defend Muawiyah. Look at Raza Khan's fatwa those who insult Muawiyah are from the dogs of hell

Many Barelwis share Batini Rafidhi beliefs and some of them attack Mu'awiyah like Tahir al-Qadri

Mythbuster1

Re: plz explain this words of Sheikh Ghumari on Muawiyyah(r.a)?
« Reply #10 on: February 12, 2015, 01:27:21 PM »
Quote
Barelwi ? How he wasn't from the Indo-Pak area

Many Arab ghulat Sufis share similar beliefs with the Barelwis like sanctifying Hallaj and Ibn Arabi

Quote
Also, Barelwis defend Muawiyah. Look at Raza Khan's fatwa those who insult Muawiyah are from the dogs of hell

Many Barelwis share Batini Rafidhi beliefs and some of them attack Mu'awiyah like Tahir al-Qadri



No they don't I love and defend our beloved muawiya ra to the BONE!!!

And I am brailwy too......so please don't generalise cos it's  an easy thing to do stick to the topic at hand please for WE MUSLIMS benefit from learning from here to defend against shia

Thankyou

Ebn Hussein

Re: plz explain this words of Sheikh Ghumari on Muawiyyah(r.a)?
« Reply #11 on: February 12, 2015, 03:27:34 PM »
Although I strongly disagree with the Barelwi firqah, yet Mythbuster is right, there are different kind of Barelwis, there is the Tafdhilis (Semi-Rafidis, who hate many Sahaba. They are loved by the Rafidah of course). The majority of Barelwis are not Tafdhilis, alhamdulillah.
الإمام الشافعي رحمه الله
لم أر أحداً من أهل الأهواء أشهد بالزور من الرافضة! - الخطيب في الكفاية والسوطي.

Imam Al-Shafi3i - may Allah have mercy upon him - said: "I have not seen among the heretics a people more famous for falsehood than the Rafidah." [narrated by Al-Khatib Al-Baghdadi/Al-Kifayah]

Hani

Re: plz explain this words of Sheikh Ghumari on Muawiyyah(r.a)?
« Reply #12 on: February 12, 2015, 04:30:14 PM »
If Imamiyyah have various beliefs then so do Barelvis.
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

sawaaiq

Re: plz explain this words of Sheikh Ghumari on Muawiyyah(r.a)?
« Reply #13 on: February 12, 2015, 10:34:56 PM »
Quote
No they don't

They share the same Batini beliefs, with different names, the overwhelming majority of the millions of Sunni who became Shia, are from the ghulat Sufi sects like the Barelwi(Arab included) or the Sufi brotherhoods in Africa.

sawaaiq

Re: plz explain this words of Sheikh Ghumari on Muawiyyah(r.a)?
« Reply #14 on: February 12, 2015, 10:43:52 PM »
Barelwis are even worse than the 12ers in their Batiniyah, some 12ers like Fadh-Allah, Haydari, Ali al-Amin, have opposed the ghuloo of their brethren, I haven't seen the same from Barelwis.

Hani

Re: plz explain this words of Sheikh Ghumari on Muawiyyah(r.a)?
« Reply #15 on: February 12, 2015, 10:49:10 PM »
If this turns into Sufi vs Salafi I'm locking it and deleting some posts. So be careful everyone.
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

sawaaiq

Re: plz explain this words of Sheikh Ghumari on Muawiyyah(r.a)?
« Reply #16 on: February 12, 2015, 10:52:26 PM »
But this is an important point, how can you oppose the Rafidha on takfeer of the Sahaba, or making Imamah a matter of kufr and iman, while ignoring their Batini zandaqah?

Hani

Re: plz explain this words of Sheikh Ghumari on Muawiyyah(r.a)?
« Reply #17 on: February 12, 2015, 11:02:25 PM »
Address only Shia in your criticisms, since you say they both share some beliefs, criticize those beliefs by criticizing Shia.


I've been online for a while and I've had my share of these unproductive Salafi vs Sufi debates. Thus no one is allowed to criticize any group that belongs to Ahlul-Sunnah, even if they're Ahbash.
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

Mythbuster1

Re: plz explain this words of Sheikh Ghumari on Muawiyyah(r.a)?
« Reply #18 on: February 13, 2015, 02:45:31 AM »
Thankyou brothers hani and ebn hussein this is real brotherhood within the ummah and I benefit and learn from you two brothers, as well as many other MUSLIMS who come to this site too hence I don't post much


This will be my last comment on this thread

Muhammad Habib

Re: plz explain this words of Sheikh Ghumari on Muawiyyah(r.a)?
« Reply #19 on: February 13, 2015, 06:23:22 PM »
I want to ask one question that before 1925 i.e in Khilafat e Uthmania, were all scholars of Haram and Madina were Ghullat Sufi who acknowledge Ahmed Raza Khan? What U SAY about sh. J HADAD is he a sufi?

 

Related Topics

  Subject / Started by Replies Last post
3 Replies
2650 Views
Last post January 25, 2015, 12:26:59 AM
by Hani
2 Replies
1769 Views
Last post April 06, 2016, 05:44:19 PM
by Abu Jasim Al-Salafi
1 Replies
1297 Views
Last post September 18, 2016, 05:33:36 AM
by Abu Muhammad
1 Replies
1341 Views
Last post December 24, 2016, 04:39:41 AM
by Hani