Fine, Umar (ra) actually did it, that is, he prevented the will from being dictated. In that case, you must admit that one fallible (Umar) was able to subdue the Seal of the Prophets (saw) and your first "infallible" Imam (ra).
Exactly my point! In the absence of this will, prescription or document, how can you guarantee your own salvation? How can you ascertain that even those present, including Imam Ali (ra), did not deviate?
Hint: this post is specifically designed to show you (though I doubt it will register in your head) that if we go by your claims, you are only undoing your own beliefs. Continue reading!
Out of gas? Take your time-out! We are not talking about previous nations; we are talking about those present in the room. You claimed over and over again that this prescription was for them and present among them was Imam Ali (ra).
As for nations of the past deviating, the message was completed with the coming of the Holy Prophet (saw) and the final message was delivered to his Ummah so bringing up nations of the past is like a comparison of apples and oranges
The Holy Prophet (saw) had three days after this incident to narrate what he intended to have dictated. He did not! Also, Imam Ali (ra) did not facilitate this request, neither on Thursday nor in the three days thereafter.
According to Islamic beliefs, a Prophet (asws) is an infallible being; infallible in delivering the message but prone to all the illnesses and evil that afflicts any man. The Shi'i concept of Imamah, on the other hand, confers absolute infallibility upon certain individuals who are in control of the atoms and universe. When individuals with such alleged superpowers are subdued, one cannot help but use the word "overpower".
To guide someone, you must make your message known. In the case of this event, Imam Ali (ra) did not speak a word, let alone move a muscle. Furthermore, I did not know that you consider an Imam's (ra) guidance contingent upon the will of people. If I may recall, you are not a big fan of Saqeefah where it was the will of the believers for Abu Bakr (ra) to become the Caliph.
Where it suits you, it is the will of the people (to explain away your Imam's helplessness or lack of corrective course of action). Otherwise, it is all "Divinely Ordained". Pathetic!
I am willing to accept that this was Shaykh Mufid's opinion, contrary to mainstream Shi'i belief. The problem is not just his opinion; the bigger problem is the need to ascertain the message of the prescription in such a haste that it undoes other core Shi'i beliefs.
So was Imam Ali (ra)! He did not oppose Umar's (ra) decision. At best, he was neutral so it is funny to see you, and the rest of Shias, take a stance when your first "infallible" Imam (ra) adopted the role of a spectator.
The verse of Tat'heer was for the Wives (ra) of the Prophet (saw), the incident of blanket (in reaction to the revelation of verse of Tat'heer) is no proof of infallibility and the incident of Mubahala has no relation to infallibility.
If you still insist on this point, you have to declare the infallibility of the Mothers of Believers (ra) as well.
You have only given us further insight of what an idiot you are! If you want to conflate that with answering my points, suit yourself!
"Fine, Umar (ra) actually did it, that is, he prevented the will from being dictated"
It wasn't ONE FALLIBLE UMAR. It wasn't about just one person. Certain people sided with Umar and a division was caused. Enough sided with him to cause two groups. One group suggested and pushed for pen and paper to be given and the Prophet s.a.w should be allowed to fulfill what he thinks is necessary and important. The other group opposed this and suggested otherwise. This turned into an argument then a row where voices were raised. So this isn't something small. Nor did it remain quiet and calm.
"In that case, you must admit that one fallible (Umar) was able to subdue the Seal of the Prophets (saw) and your first "infallible" Imam (ra)"
Based on this theory of yours you must also admit that a simple individual like Iblees has got the better of Allah and all the Prophets. He has been able to lead people astray while Allah is standing and watching him do it. Also the Jews got better of Allah by killing Prophets that came with clear signs to them. I can give you many more examples but this theory of yours is getting ridiculous. You need to move on.
"Exactly my point! In the absence of this will, prescription or document, how can you guarantee your own salvation? How can you ascertain that even those present, including Imam Ali (ra), did not deviate?"
I mentioned to you about Ali. You have the verses of Tat'heer and the incident of the blanket and the verses of Mubahila and the incident of it. If you still doubt about Ali then you are opposing the Qur'an. Ali is purified to the state of pureification and the Qur'an is a witness to this. You still want to use this as a base for cross argument then carry on challenging the Qur'an. There is no match to Ali when we consider the companions.
"We are not talking about previous nations"
You keep banging on that certain individuals got the better of Muhammad s.a.w and our infallible Imams by preventing Muhammad s.a.w from writing a important document. I just mentioned the Jewish nation got the better of Allah and many Prophets by killing them one after the other when they brought clear signs. Just pointing out the serious flaws within your theory.
"The Holy Prophet (saw) had three days after this incident to narrate what he intended to have dictated. He did not! Also, Imam Ali (ra) did not facilitate this request, neither on Thursday nor in the three days thereafter"
Do you think that in the absence of those individuals if anything was written, they would accept and acknowledge it. They didn’t want to know when it was brought up in front of them. And it was for them. When they showed no interest then what was the need for it. They didn’t want to know. When they opposed and challenged it their intentions became clear. Well the Prophet s.a.w already noticed this that's why he ordered for a pen and paper because he knew what was brewing. When he asked for pen and paper to be brought to him pbuh it all came out and clear.
"According to Islamic beliefs, a Prophet (asws) is an infallible being; infallible in delivering the message but prone to all the illnesses and evil that afflicts any man"
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November 25, 2016, 07:34:02 PM