A Refutation of Those who Accuse Ahlus-Sunnah of Confining Allaah to a Place

[Abu Jasim Al-Salafi]

A Refutation of Those who Accuse Ahlus-Sunnah of Confining Allaah to a Place

Sheikh Muhammad Nasir-ud-Deen al-Albaani (رحمه الله)

Questioner: Who are the kuroobiyoon [Cherubim] Angels?

Al-Albaani: Who are the kuroobiyoon Angels? As far as I know, there is no hadith in which a mention of this name has been made of the Angels, ‘the kuroobiyoon Angels.’ And in reality for thirty years this name had not passed by me in the hadiths which I had read in hundreds if not thousands of books, most of which were manuscripts, until [finally] I heard a mention of them in Mina during Hajj.

I was sitting during a calm, beautiful night during the days of Munaa speaking to some of our Egyptian, Syrian and other brothers from Ansaar as-Sunnah, when a Shaikh came in, gave salaam, sat down and started listening [to what was being said]. After I stopped speaking for a short while he entered the discussion and started speaking.

It became apparent from what he said that he was from those who had studied at Azhar University and who harboured a hatred against the Salafi da’wah or the da’wah to tawheed, and that he was affected by some of the false claims which are attributed to the group of tawheed in all the Muslim lands, whether here or Egypt or Syria or any other place.

So he started to attack and say that the Wahaabi da’wah was a good call but [the problem was] that they liken Allaah to the creation.

So I asked him, ‘How is that?’

He replied that they say that Allaah the Mighty and Majestic–Subhaanallaah he was declaring the Quraan to have a mistake without even realising it–he said, ‘They say that Allaah rose over the Throne.’

So I said, ‘Is that their saying or the saying of the Lord of all the worlds?’

He corrected himself and said that they explain the aayah to mean that Allaah is sitting on His Throne. I said to him: my brother, the difference between them and those who oppose them is not in likening the Lord of the worlds to the creation since they are united that it is falsehood.

Rather, the difference is in whether it is correct to interpret [the word used in the aayah] ‘istiwaa’ [rose over] to mean isteelaa [conquered] or is the correct interpretation that istiwaa means ista’laa [ascended over]? So I started talking about this topic at length.

And naturally the summary of the Salafi creed in this issue is that Allaah has the characteristic of being above all things [fawqiyyah]. So he latched on to this [statement] and said, ‘Is it possible [to believe] that Allaah the Mighty and Majestic is above the Throne? That would mean that we have situated him in a place.’

So I said to him, ‘No, this is a mistake on your part and we declare ourselves to be free from a belief which confines Allaah the Mighty and Majestic to a place whereas He is the All-High, the Most Great.’ Then I started to debate with him in a specific way and so said to him …’

Al-Albani: Do you agree with me that Allaah was and there was nothing [in existence] with Him?

The Azhari Shaikh: Of course.

Al-Albani: Was the Throne there when Allaah was?

The Azhari Shaikh: No.

Al-Albani: So Allaah was and there was nothing with Him and then He created the Throne?

The Azhari Shaikh: Yes.

I carried on with him in this manner and then said: We are now on earth, what is above us?

The Azhari Shaikh: The sky.

Al-Albani: Then?

The Azhari Shaikh: The second.

And we carried on like this until we came to the seventh. Then I said to him, ‘What is above the seventh?’

The Azhari Shaikh: The Throne.

I said–and here is the crux of the matter– what is above the Throne?

The Azhari Shaikh: The Kuroobiyoon Angels.

So this was the first time in thirty years that I heard this name. I said, ‘What? The kuroobiyoon angels are above the Throne?’ We know that it is the Creator of the Throne who is above the [Mighty] Throne according to the aforementioned aayah and the Salaf’s interpretation of it [which states that] He rose over the Throne, i.e., ascended over it, and as those relied upon in this matter said:

And the Lord of the Throne is above the Throne but
Without describing Him as being in a place or being connected [to the Throne]

So Allaah is in no need of the worlds, but for the first time I was [now] hearing that it is the kuroobiyoon Angels that are above the Throne, [so I asked him], ‘Do you have an aayah which establishes, firstly, that there are angels called, ‘The kuroobiyoon Angels?’

The Azhari Shaikh: No.

Al-Albani: Okay. Do you have a hadith in which a mention of them has been made with this name?

The Azhari Shaikh: No.

Al-Albani: So then where did you get this aqidah that above the Throne are the Kuroobiyoon Angels?

The Azhari Shaikh: This is what our Shaikhs at the noble Azhar University taught us.

So I said how strange. I know that [from what] the Azhari scholars teach their students in their lectures concerning that which is connected to the principles of aqidah and Usool al-Fiqh is that, ‘[Points of] aqidah are not established through aahaad hadith which are authentic,’ so how have they taught you a point of aqidah that is not mentioned in the Quraan nor the Sunnah? How have you come to believe this?

He was dumbfounded.  I continued and said to him, ‘Imagine that those angels who you call the Kuroobiyoon are above the [Mighty] Throne–what is above them?

So he stopped. Baffled.

And I had already spoken to him about the fact that Allaah was and there was nothing with Him … so there was nothing there [with Him], thereafter He said, ‘Be!’ and the creation was.  If we conclude that we haven’t reached the Throne yet and in your opinion those angels are above the Throne: then what is above the Throne?  Nothing or something [wujood/existence/being/entity]?

The Azhari Shaikh: No, nothing.

[So I said] because we had agreed that nothing was in existence before Allaah the Blessed and Most High created the heavens and the earth … Allaah was and nothing was with Him … so before Allaah created anything there was nothing–so when your knowledge leads you to understand that the Kuroobiyoon angels are above the Throne and that nothing from the universe is there after that, the creation having ended … [thereafter] when the Salafis say that Allaah the Blessed and Most High rose over, i.e., ascended over, the [Mighty] Throne–why do you accuse them of having confined Allaah the Mighty and Majestic to [a place in] His universe when there is no universe there?

For the universe is limited and restricted and in our opinion the end of the universe and its highest part is the Throne and in your opinion it is the Throne and then above it are the ‘Kuroobiyoon Angels,’ and then nothing after that.

So the correct aqidah according to both the intellect and the text is truly that of the Pious Predecessors–because they did not say that Allaah is in a place, as you [falsely] assume, because there is no ‘place’ beyond the Throne, only total and complete nonexistence [of anything] except Allaah the Blessed and Most High.

But what is the matter with you when you fled from that which you accused the Salafis of, [something] which they are [in fact] free of–since [we say that] Allaah is not in a place because there is no universe or place after the [Mighty] Throne, Allaah having ascended over it–but what’s the matter with you fleeing from affirming this attribute for Allaah the Blessed and Most High, i.e., the attribute of declaring Him completely free of any likeness to His creation and not ascribing the qualities of the creation to Him [tanzeeh], because He is not in the universe.

So how is it that you say He is everywhere, you confine Him to being inside His universe which He created after it was not in existence?

So you are the Mushabbihah, and you are the Mujassimah [anthropomorphists]!!

And we the Salafis are nothing other than those who go by what Allaah the Most High said, ‘There is nothing like unto Him, and He is the All-Hearer, the All-Seer,’ [Shuraa 42:11] and upon this aayah, upon [the meaning contained in] its beginning and end, we declare Him, the Most High, to be totally and utterly free of any likeness to His creation and do not ascribe the qualities of the creation to Him [tanzeeh], whilst affirming [His] Attributes as befits His Majesty and Exaltedness.

Fataawaa Jeddah, 17.

Video:

https://youtu.be/1IjNSLbA19w

[Farid]

May Allah reward you Abu Jasim for your intentions. However, I'm afraid I'm going to have to close this thread since our forums has a policy of no Salafi vs Ashari topics.