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Possible for Allah to be a physical thing?

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whoaretheshia

Possible for Allah to be a physical thing?
« on: December 03, 2017, 12:35:45 AM »
We wish to bring to the attention of our dear readers a bizarre ruling made by ibn Taymiyyah. In this Fatwah he explicitly states it is an innovation to rule out that Allah , the Almighty is a physical thing, and thus essentially believes it is possible that he is. This is a heresy in Tawheed, and one of the most grotesque and deviant beliefs, and Allah, the Almighty is  free of such claims made.

“It is well-known that there is no report from any of the Prophets or from the Sahaabah or from the Taabi‘een or from any of the early generations of the ummah to suggest that Allah is a physical entity or that He is not a physical entity. Rather denying or affirming that is an innovation according to Islam. …”
Reference:  Majmoo‘ al-Fataawa (5/434)  [ Ibn Taymiyyiah]

As adherents and believers in the pure Tawheed, we can unanimously say in the school of Muhammed and his purified progeny (Salam be upon them all) we affirm Allah the Almighty can never be a physical thing. Physical realities are contingent, created, composed up of constituent parts themselves and such contingencies can never be attributed to the necessary reality, the necessary cause by which everything else exists. “…And there is nothing like unto him”(Surah Ikhlas, Noble Quran). Allah also states: “There is nothing whatsoever like unto him” (Noble Quran) and “Glorified is Allah far above what they claim!” (Noble Quran 21:22). We hope to demonstrate in further depth as time progresses of the full deviance this individual had in one of the most fundamental concepts in the religion of Islam: Tawheed.

[This article was published on our whoaretheshia website]

DISCLAIMER

If you reply, do not side track the discussion. You must address the beliefs of Ibn Taymiyyah directly an defend his belief if you agree with it, and agree that it is possible for Allah, the Almighty, to be a physical thing. Anyone who sidetracks, posts something about Shia Islam, goes into irrelevancy will be demonstrated to not respect the basic manners of peaceful discussion, and in addition, not possess the ability to kindly and intellectually respond to points.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2017, 12:36:55 AM by whoaretheshia »
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" O you who have believed, be persistently standing firm in justice.. even if it be against yourselves... So follow not [personal] inclination, lest you not be jus

whoaretheshia

Re: Possible for Allah to be a physical thing?
« Reply #1 on: December 03, 2017, 12:39:12 AM »
We highly recommend as supplementary material to watch the following videos from Hanafi Fiqh channel, representing the true Aqeedah of the Sunni, the Ashari and the Maturidi, the real defenders of Sunni Islam and i admit this even as a Shia:






DISCLAIMER: I AM AWAY UNTIL THE START OF THE NEW YEAR, PM ME IF I OWE YOU A REPLY, MAY ALLAH HAVE MERCY ON ALL OF US, FI AMANILLAH
" O you who have believed, be persistently standing firm in justice.. even if it be against yourselves... So follow not [personal] inclination, lest you not be jus

fgss

Re: Possible for Allah to be a physical thing?
« Reply #2 on: December 03, 2017, 07:18:57 AM »
What is shia interpretation of following verse?

" AR-RAHMANO alal ARSH-ISTAWA "
إِنَّ أَصْدَقَ الْحَدِيثِ كِتَابُ اللَّهِ وَأَحْسَنَ الْهَدْىِ هَدْىُ مُحَمَّدٍ وَشَرَّ الأُمُورِ مُحْدَثَاتُهَا وَكُلَّ مُحْدَثَةٍ بِدْعَةٌ وَكُلَّ بِدْعَةٍ ضَلاَلَةٌ وَكُلَّ ضَلاَلَةٍ فِي النَّارِ

May Allah guide us to the true teachings of Quran and Sunnah of His beloved Prophet (s.a.w.w). Ameen

Noor-us-Sunnah

Re: Possible for Allah to be a physical thing?
« Reply #3 on: December 03, 2017, 07:52:54 AM »
We highly recommend as supplementary material to watch the following videos from Hanafi Fiqh channel, representing the true Aqeedah of the Sunni, the Ashari and the Maturidi, the real defenders of Sunni Islam and i admit this even as a Shia:






This guy has been thoroughly refuted by salafees. Video refutations as well as articles refuting him are available in this link :

https://thewayofsalafiyyah.wordpress.com/2016/02/26/refutation-of-mohammad-yasir-al-ashari-ad-deobandi/

Noor-us-Sunnah

Re: Possible for Allah to be a physical thing?
« Reply #4 on: December 03, 2017, 10:02:24 AM »

Hadrami

Re: Possible for Allah to be a physical thing?
« Reply #5 on: December 03, 2017, 12:11:30 PM »
What is shia interpretation of following verse?

" AR-RAHMANO alal ARSH-ISTAWA "

dont bother, he wont answer. Bro muslim720 asked him something similar 3 times, but that deviant lying shia ignores him

fgss

Re: Possible for Allah to be a physical thing?
« Reply #6 on: December 03, 2017, 02:01:23 PM »
dont bother, he wont answer. Bro muslim720 asked him something similar 3 times, but that deviant lying shia ignores him

Thats why I just searched SC and got this:

THE BELIEF CONCERNINC THE THRONE (‘arsh)
Says the Shaykh Abu Ja’far: Our belief concerning the Throne (‘arsh) is that it is something which is carried or supported by the whole of creation. And ‘arsh according to another interpretation is knowledge (ilm). And as-Sadiq, on whom be peace, was asked (the meaning of) the saying of Allah, the Mighty and Glorious: "The Beneficent One, Who it established on the Throne" [20,4]. He said: He is equidistant from everything, and not a single thing is nearer to Him than another. Now that 'arsh, which is supported by the whole of creation, is borne by eight angels, each possessing eight eyes, each eye as large as the world. One of the angels is of human shape and he asks Allah to provide daily bread for the sons of Adam. The second is of the shape of a bull, and he asks Allah to provide daily bread for all beasts. And the third is of the shape of a lion, and he asks Allah to provide daily bread for all beasts of prey. And the fourth is of the shape of a fowl, and he asks Allah to provide sustenance for all birds.

Today there exist four angels, but when the Day of Resurrection comes, they will become eight in number.

The 'arsh which means knowledge is borne by four amongst the ancients and four amongst the later ones; the former ones are Noah, Abraham, Moses and Jesus, on all of whom be peace; and the later are Muhammad, ‘Ali, Hasan, and Husayn, the blessings of Allah upon them. This is what has been handed down from the Imams by a reliable chain of authorities concerning the Throne and its bearers.

Now the reason why these persons became the bearers of the 'arsh, that is the knowledge (of Allah), is that the ancient prophets, who lived prior to our Prophet Muhammad, namely, Noah, Abraham, Moses and Jesus, brought four different faiths. It was through these that the true knowledge passed to them (i.e. Muhammad, Ali, etc.). Similarly the true knowledge was transmitted after Muhammad, by ‘Ali, Hasan and Husayn to those amongst the Imams who came after Husayn.

http://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/51007-arsh-the-throne-of-allah/
إِنَّ أَصْدَقَ الْحَدِيثِ كِتَابُ اللَّهِ وَأَحْسَنَ الْهَدْىِ هَدْىُ مُحَمَّدٍ وَشَرَّ الأُمُورِ مُحْدَثَاتُهَا وَكُلَّ مُحْدَثَةٍ بِدْعَةٌ وَكُلَّ بِدْعَةٍ ضَلاَلَةٌ وَكُلَّ ضَلاَلَةٍ فِي النَّارِ

May Allah guide us to the true teachings of Quran and Sunnah of His beloved Prophet (s.a.w.w). Ameen

muslim720

Re: Possible for Allah to be a physical thing?
« Reply #7 on: December 04, 2017, 02:01:30 AM »
May Allah (swt) bless Ibn Taymiyyah (rah).  Even centuries later, he remains a source of headache for those who try to spread headache among the ummah today.

whoaretheshia

Re: Possible for Allah to be a physical thing?
« Reply #8 on: December 10, 2017, 04:52:31 AM »
May Allah (swt) bless Ibn Taymiyyah (rah).  Even centuries later, he remains a source of headache for those who try to spread headache among the ummah today.

Do you mean the vast majority of scholars of the Ahlus-Sunnah i.e the Ashariyya and Maturidiyya? The ones who have by far the most number of islamic schools and followers in India, in Pakistan , in Egypt (al-Azhar), in Morocco, in most of north Africa, as well as a fair presence in the far east as well as a fair presence even in the Salafi-Athari dominated Saudi Arabia?


DISCLAIMER: I AM AWAY UNTIL THE START OF THE NEW YEAR, PM ME IF I OWE YOU A REPLY, MAY ALLAH HAVE MERCY ON ALL OF US, FI AMANILLAH
" O you who have believed, be persistently standing firm in justice.. even if it be against yourselves... So follow not [personal] inclination, lest you not be jus

whoaretheshia

Re: Possible for Allah to be a physical thing?
« Reply #9 on: December 10, 2017, 04:58:14 AM »
What is shia interpretation of following verse?

" AR-RAHMANO alal ARSH-ISTAWA "

The reality is, using duals does not necessitate that what is mentioned is a literal thing. In fact, the majority of Sunni scholars (the Ashari and Maturidi) affirm Allah (swt) has the property of 'Y'ad' but it does not mean hands, but rather the meaning is unknown and they perform Tafweed and refer it to Allah (swt).  Furthermore , opinions on this range from the fact the Quran is a book of eloquent Arabic and contains powerful rhetoric and expression. Using the term 'two hands' can signify special creation, thus elevating the status or position of man, who was created. There are many other valid interpretations that are inline with common use. Although 'Hand' means power in normal Arabic Rhetoric, even when using dual, it can still signify power but special creation along with it.  Furthermore, Allah (swt) is not composed of constituent parts, and he is one in his absolute oneness. If he literally had 'two hands, two feet' fingers' and the like, then one could claim they worship the 'Hand' or 'Finger' of Allah yet still claim that they are worshiping him. You land into such absurdities when you begin to break up the almighty into constituent subunits.

However, can i just say this whole thread is pertaining to the topic: Is it possible for Allah, the Almighty, to be a physical thing?

So i would kindly request we stick to that. Do you believe it is possible for Allah, the Almighty to be a physical thing? I and the majority of Shia and Sunni scholars (Ashari and Maturidi) wholeheartedly condemn and dissociate our creator from such a statement.
DISCLAIMER: I AM AWAY UNTIL THE START OF THE NEW YEAR, PM ME IF I OWE YOU A REPLY, MAY ALLAH HAVE MERCY ON ALL OF US, FI AMANILLAH
" O you who have believed, be persistently standing firm in justice.. even if it be against yourselves... So follow not [personal] inclination, lest you not be jus

whoaretheshia

Re: Possible for Allah to be a physical thing?
« Reply #10 on: December 10, 2017, 05:00:19 AM »
dont bother, he wont answer. Bro muslim720 asked him something similar 3 times, but that deviant lying shia ignores him

It's nice for you to call me a 'deviant, lying Shia'. You know, even when Musa (as) was sent to Pharaoh, an ignorant mass murder who was full of so much arrogance he claimed he was God, Allah instructs him to engage in dialogue with him gently. When i have been on here i have never insulted any of you, let alone used hurtful sectarian rhetoric like this. I have answered the question by the way, and i was away which is why i did not answer it before.
DISCLAIMER: I AM AWAY UNTIL THE START OF THE NEW YEAR, PM ME IF I OWE YOU A REPLY, MAY ALLAH HAVE MERCY ON ALL OF US, FI AMANILLAH
" O you who have believed, be persistently standing firm in justice.. even if it be against yourselves... So follow not [personal] inclination, lest you not be jus

whoaretheshia

Re: Possible for Allah to be a physical thing?
« Reply #11 on: December 10, 2017, 05:01:23 AM »
https://youtu.be/wuKo3yFaRtM

I'm just quoting you to say i wish to inshAllah invite you to a one on one official debate on the attributes of Allah (swt) and only we can post and give our views, back and forth. I will address every point you make on this issue , do you accept ?
DISCLAIMER: I AM AWAY UNTIL THE START OF THE NEW YEAR, PM ME IF I OWE YOU A REPLY, MAY ALLAH HAVE MERCY ON ALL OF US, FI AMANILLAH
" O you who have believed, be persistently standing firm in justice.. even if it be against yourselves... So follow not [personal] inclination, lest you not be jus

Hadrami

Re: Possible for Allah to be a physical thing?
« Reply #12 on: December 10, 2017, 05:07:52 AM »
It's nice for you to call me a 'deviant, lying Shia'. You know, even when Musa (as) was sent to Pharaoh, an ignorant mass murder who was full of so much arrogance he claimed he was God, Allah instructs him to engage in dialogue with him gently. When i have been on here i have never insulted any of you, let alone used hurtful sectarian rhetoric like this. I have answered the question by the way, and i was away which is why i did not answer it before.
Im sorry to hurt your takfiri feeling. Actually no, I dont. I just hate taqiyya liar, thats all. You did ignore muslim720 though, because you know you cant answer his question

whoaretheshia

Re: Possible for Allah to be a physical thing?
« Reply #13 on: December 10, 2017, 05:15:19 AM »
Im sorry to hurt your takfiri feeling. Actually no, I dont. I just hate taqiyya liar, thats all. You did ignore muslim720 though, because you know you cant answer his question

Brother, i just answered him several posts ago? I was also way for nine days, and i have been involved with debates about this so many times, even challenging a member here to an official debate on this very issue.  In fact, in the debates i've had, it has always been the Salafi Athari brothers who have chosen to end the debate with me and not carry on, or not answer.

PS: You are a Muslim and your state in the next life will be judged by Allah, and it is permissible for me to pray you are granted Jannah and to offer your funeral prayers. By the way my grandfather who passed away, my uncle who also passed away, were both Sunni. Most of my Family are. Don't debate this point here, there is no ned to derail the thread. I just wanted you to know that no matter how i vehemently disagree with your beliefs, Allah will be the one to judge us and not me.
« Last Edit: December 10, 2017, 05:16:40 AM by whoaretheshia »
DISCLAIMER: I AM AWAY UNTIL THE START OF THE NEW YEAR, PM ME IF I OWE YOU A REPLY, MAY ALLAH HAVE MERCY ON ALL OF US, FI AMANILLAH
" O you who have believed, be persistently standing firm in justice.. even if it be against yourselves... So follow not [personal] inclination, lest you not be jus

Hadrami

Re: Possible for Allah to be a physical thing?
« Reply #14 on: December 10, 2017, 05:24:56 AM »
Brother, i just answered him several posts ago? I was also way for nine days, and i have been involved with debates about this so many times, even challenging a member here to an official debate on this very issue.  In fact, in the debates i've had, it has always been the Salafi Athari brothers who have chosen to end the debate with me and not carry on, or not answer.

PS: You are a Muslim and your state in the next life will be judged by Allah, and it is permissible for me to pray you are granted Jannah and to offer your funeral prayers. By the way my grandfather who passed away, my uncle who also passed away, were both Sunni. Most of my Family are. Don't debate this point here, there is no ned to derail the thread. I just wanted you to know that no matter how i vehemently disagree with your beliefs, Allah will be the one to judge us and not me.
I know, you can say you are not a takfiri, but i know tour true belief is takfiri. To say you dont believe Abu Bakr & Umar wont be in hell according to your belief i enough proof that you are a liar 😆

whoaretheshia

Re: Possible for Allah to be a physical thing?
« Reply #15 on: December 10, 2017, 05:39:30 AM »
I know, you can say you are not a takfiri, but i know tour true belief is takfiri. To say you dont believe Abu Bakr & Umar wont be in hell according to your belief i enough proof that you are a liar 😆

I'm not going to deny a fair number of Shias might have that belief, but i follow the views of Sayed Fadllulah (rh) in refraining from making any judgement until the day of judgement. While they have done a lot wrong, Allah will judge them. Anyway, no matter what i believe about them to even talk disrespectfully about them when the majority of Muslims revere them out and out is forbidden.  Seriously, that is my belief.
DISCLAIMER: I AM AWAY UNTIL THE START OF THE NEW YEAR, PM ME IF I OWE YOU A REPLY, MAY ALLAH HAVE MERCY ON ALL OF US, FI AMANILLAH
" O you who have believed, be persistently standing firm in justice.. even if it be against yourselves... So follow not [personal] inclination, lest you not be jus

Hadrami

Re: Possible for Allah to be a physical thing?
« Reply #16 on: December 10, 2017, 05:49:17 AM »
I'm not going to deny a fair number of Shias might have that belief, but i follow the views of Sayed Fadllulah (rh) in refraining from making any judgement until the day of judgement. While they have done a lot wrong, Allah will judge them. Anyway, no matter what i believe about them to even talk disrespectfully about them when the majority of Muslims revere them out and out is forbidden.  Seriously, that is my belief.
come on, we all know he is the odd ones. Besides, he is dead. Who is your marja taqlid? Stop lying, its getting tiresome

Hadrami

Re: Possible for Allah to be a physical thing?
« Reply #17 on: December 10, 2017, 05:50:37 AM »
Brother, i just answered him several posts ago?
Stop lying, you havent. He asked you 3 times in different threads and you avoided him. Here, answer him then http://forum.twelvershia.net/quran-tafseer/shin-in-the-quran/

Hani

Re: Possible for Allah to be a physical thing?
« Reply #18 on: December 10, 2017, 08:28:42 AM »
It seems Ibn Taymiyyah was simply saying "Don't describe God in a way that He didn't describe Himself." So neither physical nor non-physical nor anything else as it is not your place to speak on this.

Then again this whole nature of God issue was so muddy that all the big scholars slipped when they went too deep. Ibn Taymiyyah being no exception, said a lot of things that made sense and a lot of other things that anyone can disagree with.
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

Noor-us-Sunnah

Re: Possible for Allah to be a physical thing?
« Reply #19 on: December 13, 2017, 01:45:26 AM »
I'm just quoting you to say i wish to inshAllah invite you to a one on one official debate on the attributes of Allah (swt) and only we can post and give our views, back and forth. I will address every point you make on this issue , do you accept ?

Firstly, the reason I posted the link of this video ( https://youtu.be/wuKo3yFaRtM ), was to educate you about the views of your top scholar like Shareef al Murtadha. Watch the video from 18:18 till 19:18 see how shareef murtadha tries to defend Hisham Ibn hakam who believed Allah is body(Jism), by arguing that Hisham meant body(jism) not like other bodies and there is no disagreement that it is not tashbih.

So your attacks on Salafees are due to your ignorance, bigotry and bias. Whereas, for your scholars a highly praised Shia(hisham al hakam) who belived that Allah is body unlike other body is not tashbih.

As for the debate between us on this matter, then tell me who will be the judge ? Will it be Quran and Sunnah or ideas formed using kalaam? Because Quran says if you are in dispute refer back to Allah and his Prophet(saws).
« Last Edit: December 13, 2017, 01:49:40 AM by Noor-us-Sunnah »

 

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