T110: Not Another Iceman

[iceman]

Well..........They don’t need 313 exact hardmen to comeback and kill the Sunnis, only one certain individual  hiding for the last millennia will do that to Sunnis so I haven’t fallen out with the 2 you mentioned, that one joker is enough for a good laugh.😜😂👍

I don't know where on earth you got the idea that he will need 313 men to kill the Sunnis. Don't know what planet you're living in. Sunnis as well as Shias believe in the coming of Mahdi, in the coming of a saviour. Why? Because certain  Muslims took matter into their own hands since Saqifa. And the Muslim Ummah has always been careless and divided.

Since mankind (Muslims) took the matter of leadership and governance into their own hands, the Muslim Ummah have got themselves from one mess into another. The world will eventually be full of injustice and tyranny, get it, that's what Caliphate brought, that a saviour will be needed and come to free us from it.

I know this reality bits you. And the facts surrounding it kills you. Well that's what happens to brainwashed people like you. Try to have an academic discussion based on logic and reason. 😆

[iceman]

who he saw prophet (s.a.w and proclaimed shahadah and maintained this belief during whole of his life
side note: let me restate my question, how can you prove from quran why isnt this verse a general warning, without somebody actually having raised his voice in front of prophet (s.a.w), how do you know that ALLAH wasnt teaching manners to muslims, rather than reprimanding them when they actually committed the mistake.
e.g if a teacher tells his students, let your assignment not be late, it definitely means a warning, couldn't these verses be in the same context

The example you've given about a teacher, students and assignment is totally different than what we're discussing. "Do not raise your voice at or above the voice of the Prophet s.a.w and don't argue with him or in front of him" is totally different than "make sure or keep in mind that you don't.......etc"

Ok lets leave this aside for a minute and go by warning and Allah wasn't speaking about the companions because they were so good and obedient that they never.....etc, what about the unfortunate incident of pen and paper? What about the absolutely unnecessary argument that took place in front of the Prophet s.a.w where voices were raised above the Prophet's s.a.w voice? They were companions or the Prophet s.a.w weren't they?

Or are you going to look for excuses here as well to divert attention.

[iceman]

none of them are imams of the time, whom we should actually be following in  letter and dot

They were selected and chosen by Allah. Not by mankind and coincidentally like in Saqifa. That's our issue. What happened and how it happened. We don't accept that. No one would with a bit of logic and reasoning.

[iceman]

If only predicting the outcome of sporting events was as easy as predicting the behavior of a Shia during a discussion!  As I rightly predicted, T110 has gone into occultation due to his inability to account for the following points:

1.  Bring us ahaadith in Sahihain narrated by Umar ibn Sa'ad.

2.  Admit your haste in skipping over the hadith of Musa (asws) and how it explicitly says that Bani Isra'il admitted that Musa (asws) was without defects.  Or better, apologize.

3.  Show us where the Qur'an says that those who run away in battles are disbelievers.

4.  Defend or condemn the narration which says that men get hard-on visiting Karbala.

"Bring us ahaadith in Sahihain narrated by Umar ibn Sa'ad"

Why? What's the reason for me to do that?

"Admit your haste in skipping over the hadith of Musa (asws) and how it explicitly says that Bani Isra'il admitted that Musa (asws) was without defects.  Or better, apologize"

And where and how did I skip that? First of all what are you exactly talking about here?

"Show us where the Qur'an says that those who run away in battles are disbelievers"

When did I claim that?

"Defend or condemn the narration which says that men get hard-on visiting Karbala"

What's that got to do with me? When did I claim that and how has that become a Shia belief? Stick to the subject.

[Mythbuster1]

I don't know where on earth you got the idea that he will need 313 men to kill the Sunnis. Don't know what planet you're living in. Sunnis as well as Shias believe in the coming of Mahdi, in the coming of a saviour. Why? Because certain  Muslims took matter into their own hands since Saqifa. And the Muslim Ummah has always been careless and divided.

Since mankind (Muslims) took the matter of leadership and governance into their own hands, the Muslim Ummah have got themselves from one mess into another. The world will eventually be full of injustice and tyranny, get it, that's what Caliphate brought, that a saviour will be needed and come to free us from it.

I know this reality bits you. And the facts surrounding it kills you. Well that's what happens to brainwashed people like you. Try to have an academic discussion based on logic and reason. 😆

It’s IN your books that he the scared imam NEEDS 313 followers to come out and fight like a man..........it’s been centuries and countless millions of shia have been dead and gone BUT none of them were the 313 that he needs....lol.

Yes we believe imam Mahdi will be BORN and will come and fight the kafiroon and NOT take revenge because the khilafat overpowered divine Imamate lol I think you need to open your fast now your heads all over the place.
Muslim ummah Alhamdulillah had a great period from the first 4 khalifa to Seljuks to mamluks to Ayubids to uthmani khilafat to name but a few..........what did shia and their divine imamates EVER do in history......have you even got a history or do you just tag behind us and BACKBITE us, I believe it’s the latter.

Muslim rule Alhamdulillah was great all thanks to Allah swt which spread Islam from hijaz to the four corners of the globe...........whilst you Shias were crying over some stupid made up divine Imamate thing which no sane person in the world would EVER believe in.......boo hoo hoo always crying Sunnis this Sunnis that and closing your eyes deliberately to the glory they brought to the world ruling by Quran and sunnah and spreading dawah........boo hoo hoo😂

Lol you academic? You are the one using false statements “Umar said don’t listen to him”! And when confronted move on to something else.

I know you and your kind you can NEVER discuss academically you ain’t got an atoms worth of intelligence but just a brainwashed about some divine Imamate thing that YOU COULD NEVER PROVE ACADEMICALLY FROM QURAN.......in one of our first convos!!!!

Boo hoo hoo ........Dry your eyes mate!

😂👍

[muslim720]

"Bring us ahaadith in Sahihain narrated by Umar ibn Sa'ad"

Why? What's the reason for me to do that?

"Admit your haste in skipping over the hadith of Musa (asws) and how it explicitly says that Bani Isra'il admitted that Musa (asws) was without defects.  Or better, apologize"

And where and how did I skip that? First of all what are you exactly talking about here?

"Show us where the Qur'an says that those who run away in battles are disbelievers"

When did I claim that?

"Defend or condemn the narration which says that men get hard-on visiting Karbala"

What's that got to do with me? When did I claim that and how has that become a Shia belief? Stick to the subject.

If you were not pathetic in reading comprehension, you would have noticed that my opening statement excluded you from the discussion.  I said, "As I rightly predicted, T110 has gone into occultation due to his inability to account for the following points".

Knowing the magnitude of your stupidity, allow me to clarify the purpose of this discussion topic.  It was not my intention to try to prove that you are T110.  In other words, I do not believe you and T110 are the same person.  However, I see the same behavior in the two of you, both evading crucial points making yourselves and your madhhab out to be laughing stocks.  You have spent quite a few years on TwelverShia wasting our time dancing around points.  I won't allow T110 or any other new Shi'i member to do that.  I will keep a running list of their failures which they will have to apologize or account for.

Do you understand now or did the head-slapping from last Muharram has seriously damaged your (few) brain cells?

[T110]

I'm here and the only things in occulation are threads in which the Ahlul Sunnah are strongly ciritiqued.

[muslim720]

I'm here and the only things in occulation are threads in which the Ahlul Sunnah are strongly ciritiqued.

We are all ears for your concerns and all the overdue points for which you owe us a response.  Or an apology for your ignorance will do.

[iceman]

If you were not pathetic in reading comprehension, you would have noticed that my opening statement excluded you from the discussion.  I said, "As I rightly predicted, T110 has gone into occultation due to his inability to account for the following points".

Knowing the magnitude of your stupidity, allow me to clarify the purpose of this discussion topic.  It was not my intention to try to prove that you are T110.  In other words, I do not believe you and T110 are the same person.  However, I see the same behavior in the two of you, both evading crucial points making yourselves and your madhhab out to be laughing stocks.  You have spent quite a few years on TwelverShia wasting our time dancing around points.  I won't allow T110 or any other new Shi'i member to do that.  I will keep a running list of their failures which they will have to apologize or account for.

Do you understand now or did the head-slapping from last Muharram has seriously damaged your (few) brain cells?

"both evading crucial points making yourselves and your madhhab out to be laughing stocks"

And what are those crucial points? Just cut the crap and get to the point. I'm not going to bother with the rest of your post. Because I don't want to get down into the gutter with you. Find someone of your nature and level for that. 😊

[Muhammad Tazin]

"Raise not your voices above the voice of the Prophet Peace Be Upon Him, nor speak aloud to him in talk as you speak aloud to one another, lest your deeds should be rendered fruitless while you perceive not. Those who lower their voices in the presence of Allah’s Messenger PBUH, they are the ones whose hearts Allah has tested for piety. For them is forgiveness and a great reward"
Quran: 49: 2- 3

Now the above verses were revealed well before the pen and paper incident. This means certain Companions were guilty of this before as well where they were told off severely and harshly. Lets not be hell-bent in protecting them so badly.

Why are you throwing away an important of the ayat, which debunks the Sabaite ideology of apostacy of sahaba?! You omitted "O you who have believed" . Allah taught sahaba how to behave among themselves while in front of Prophet(PBUH), just like many other ayat in Quran. But before that, Allah has mentioned them as those who have already believed.
You have also overlooked the 3rd ayat, which declared forgiveness for those who have acted upon the command of the 2nd ayat.

As for the details  of  the incident, hadith states that, after this ayat was revealed, Umar lowered his voice in a noticeable extent-


Narrated Ibn Abi Mulaika:

The two righteous persons were about to be ruined. They were Abu Bakr and `Umar who raised their voices in the presence of the Prophet (ﷺ) when a mission from Bani Tamim came to him. One of the two recommended Al-Aqra' bin Habeas, the brother of Bani Mujashi (to be their governor) while the other recommended somebody else. (Nafi`, the sub-narrator said, I do not remember his name). Abu Bakr said to `Umar, "You wanted nothing but to oppose me!" `Umar said, "I did not intend to oppose you." Their voices grew loud in that argument, so Allah revealed: 'O you who believe! Raise not your voices above the voice of the Prophet.' (49.2) Ibn Az-Zubair said, "Since the revelation of this Verse, `Umar used to speak in such a low tone that the Prophet (ﷺ) had to ask him to repeat his statements." But Ibn Az-Zubair did not mention the same about his (maternal) grandfather (i.e. Abu Bakr).

 Sahih al-Bukhari-  4845

And, why are you worried for pen & paper incident, after that day, Prophet(PBUH) had enough time to declare succession or that sort of thing, but no sign or trace of IMAMAH there~

[muslim720]

"both evading crucial points making yourselves and your madhhab out to be laughing stocks"

And what are those crucial points? Just cut the crap and get to the point. I'm not going to bother with the rest of your post. Because I don't want to get down into the gutter with you. Find someone of your nature and level for that. 😊

The "crucial points" have been stated many times and they are for T110 to accept or refute.  You can shut up now and crawl back into your cave.  Your boyfriend should be able to answer for himself though I'm sure he appreciates you looking out for him.

[iceman]

Why are you throwing away an important of the ayat, which debunks the Sabaite ideology of apostacy of sahaba?! You omitted "O you who have believed" . Allah taught sahaba how to behave among themselves while in front of Prophet(PBUH), just like many other ayat in Quran. But before that, Allah has mentioned them as those who have already believed.
You have also overlooked the 3rd ayat, which declared forgiveness for those who have acted upon the command of the 2nd ayat.

As for the details  of  the incident, hadith states that, after this ayat was revealed, Umar lowered his voice in a noticeable extent-


Narrated Ibn Abi Mulaika:

The two righteous persons were about to be ruined. They were Abu Bakr and `Umar who raised their voices in the presence of the Prophet (ﷺ) when a mission from Bani Tamim came to him. One of the two recommended Al-Aqra' bin Habeas, the brother of Bani Mujashi (to be their governor) while the other recommended somebody else. (Nafi`, the sub-narrator said, I do not remember his name). Abu Bakr said to `Umar, "You wanted nothing but to oppose me!" `Umar said, "I did not intend to oppose you." Their voices grew loud in that argument, so Allah revealed: 'O you who believe! Raise not your voices above the voice of the Prophet.' (49.2) Ibn Az-Zubair said, "Since the revelation of this Verse, `Umar used to speak in such a low tone that the Prophet (ﷺ) had to ask him to repeat his statements." But Ibn Az-Zubair did not mention the same about his (maternal) grandfather (i.e. Abu Bakr).

 Sahih al-Bukhari-  4845

And, why are you worried for pen & paper incident, after that day, Prophet(PBUH) had enough time to declare succession or that sort of thing, but no sign or trace of IMAMAH there~

"apostasy of sahaba"

Ok, do you believe in this or not? If you don't then what about Malik bin Nuwayrah and the others who were accused of apostasy? Are you going to deny that they were companions to begin with or do you accept the fact that Sahaba can become apostates but limit it to your desire?

I don't accuse companions of apostasy. But what I do say and believe is that certain Companions, their actions and stance in certain matters and situations is disappointing. And in some places is subject to crticisism and condemnation.

You believe that companions are clear of apostasy and criticism. Then you have double standards where you accuse certain Companions of apostasy during the reign of Abu Bakr and accuse some of making mistakes and getting it wrong like Ali and his reign.

But we don't have double standards. Our principle is that companions can make an error, make mistakes, get it wrong. And it depends on the nature of the situation and matter. On that basis criticism and condemnation is brought about but justly, fairly and with in reason. Then you are quick to defend and protect certain individuals.

[iceman]

The "crucial points" have been stated many times and they are for T110 to accept or refute.  You can shut up now and crawl back into your cave.  Your boyfriend should be able to answer for himself though I'm sure he appreciates you looking out for him.

"The "crucial points" have been stated many times and they are for T110 to accept or refute"

Well don't keep on dragging me into it.

"You can shut up now and crawl back into your cave"

That's what you need to do. Because you're the one who's coming out with the trash.

"Your boyfriend"

We know how you've been brought up by the way you speak and behave. But try and keep it general and civilised. If you can.

[muslim720]

Well don't keep on dragging me into it.

Then stop sticking your nose in other people's business!

That's what you need to do. Because you're the one who's coming out with the trash.

No, I am taking out the trash.  See how your bf went missing when I started a running list of his blunders?  We made that mistake with you so I wanted to rectify it.  We should have kept a running list of your failures too.  By now, you'd have been in occultation.

We know how you've been brought up by the way you speak and behave. But try and keep it general and civilised. If you can.

Pathetic comeback, lol, as usual!

[iceman]

Why are you throwing away an important of the ayat, which debunks the Sabaite ideology of apostacy of sahaba?! You omitted "O you who have believed" . Allah taught sahaba how to behave among themselves while in front of Prophet(PBUH), just like many other ayat in Quran. But before that, Allah has mentioned them as those who have already believed.
You have also overlooked the 3rd ayat, which declared forgiveness for those who have acted upon the command of the 2nd ayat.

As for the details  of  the incident, hadith states that, after this ayat was revealed, Umar lowered his voice in a noticeable extent-


Narrated Ibn Abi Mulaika:

The two righteous persons were about to be ruined. They were Abu Bakr and `Umar who raised their voices in the presence of the Prophet (ﷺ) when a mission from Bani Tamim came to him. One of the two recommended Al-Aqra' bin Habeas, the brother of Bani Mujashi (to be their governor) while the other recommended somebody else. (Nafi`, the sub-narrator said, I do not remember his name). Abu Bakr said to `Umar, "You wanted nothing but to oppose me!" `Umar said, "I did not intend to oppose you." Their voices grew loud in that argument, so Allah revealed: 'O you who believe! Raise not your voices above the voice of the Prophet.' (49.2) Ibn Az-Zubair said, "Since the revelation of this Verse, `Umar used to speak in such a low tone that the Prophet (ﷺ) had to ask him to repeat his statements." But Ibn Az-Zubair did not mention the same about his (maternal) grandfather (i.e. Abu Bakr).

 Sahih al-Bukhari-  4845

And, why are you worried for pen & paper incident, after that day, Prophet(PBUH) had enough time to declare succession or that sort of thing, but no sign or trace of IMAMAH there~

"And, why are you worried for pen & paper incident, after that day, Prophet(PBUH) had enough time to declare succession or that sort of thing, but no sign or trace of IMAMAH there"

I'm not worried the slightest. And we aren't talking about Imamah. So I don't know why you keep bringing it in. Only to divert attention that is. Umar wasn't interested in what the Prophet s.a.w had to write by saying "you have the book of Allah with you, that is sufficient for us". Companions raised their voices in front of the Prophet s.a.w and argued in front of him. Some said he should be given the own and paper and should be allowed to write. The others disagreed. The behaviour was absolutely disgusting and in front of the Prophet s.a.w You can try hard as you want. It is what it is. And you can't wash it away or brush it under the carpet. I know how desperate you are.

"Allah taught sahaba how to behave among themselves while in front of Prophet(PBUH)"

And how exactly did they behave in front of the Prophet s.a.w is crystal clear when he asked for pen and paper. Stop protecting the guilty by dragging this on.

"Allah has mentioned them as those who have already believed"

I'm not questioning their belief, I'm just pointing out their behaviour and stance.

"which declared forgiveness for those who have acted upon the command of the 2nd ayat"

I'm not questioning whether or why they were forgiven or let off. Just pointing out that certain actions and behaviour puts you below others. You can't say, do, act and behave the way you want and then are placed above the others or given superiority above others. It's not just or fair. And it's beyond reason.

[iceman]

Then stop sticking your nose in other people's business!

No, I am taking out the trash.  See how your bf went missing when I started a running list of his blunders?  We made that mistake with you so I wanted to rectify it.  We should have kept a running list of your failures too.  By now, you'd have been in occultation.

Pathetic comeback, lol, as usual!

"Then stop sticking your nose in other people's business!"

I'm sticking my nose into a business which you have made mine by connecting me to it and by calling me on. Take a look at the title of your thread and your posts.keep it between you and him. Don't expect that I won't comment or respond if I'm mentioned.

"No, I am taking out the trash"

Well why are you taking it out with your mouth. 😊 You're only making your mouth dirty and yourself filthy. 😊

"We should have kept a running list of your failures too"

Bring it on baby. What's keeping you. 😊

[muslim720]

I'm sticking my nose into a business which you have made mine by connecting me to it and by calling me on. Take a look at the title of your thread and your posts.keep it between you and him. Don't expect that I won't comment or respond if I'm mentioned.

I have already explained why your name was added to this discussion topic.  No need to feel special.  You have been named as an example of a mistake never to repeat, not as a beacon of wisdom.

Well why are you taking it out with your mouth. 😊 You're only making your mouth dirty and yourself filthy. 😊

Didn't know you were taught to take trash out with your mouth!  Tell us more about yourself.  You must have been abused as a child.

Bring it on baby. What's keeping you. 😊

Baby?  I am not T110.

[iceman]

I have already explained why your name was added to this discussion topic.  No need to feel special.  You have been named as an example of a mistake never to repeat, not as a beacon of wisdom.

Didn't know you were taught to take trash out with your mouth!  Tell us more about yourself.  You must have been abused as a child.

Baby?  I am not T110.

"Didn't know you were taught to take trash out with your mouth"

No. Wasn't brought up like that. The way I talk and behave backs it. I didn't say that I was taking trash out. You said that.

"Tell us more about yourself.  You must have been abused as a child"

Then why are you talking and behaving as the one who was 😊 Take a look at the language you use.

What's the matter, got nothing useful to put forward. You can say what ever you won't. You won't get a reaction out of me that you so desperately want. 😊

[Muhammad Tazin]

"apostasy of sahaba"

Ok, do you believe in this or not? If you don't then what about Malik bin Nuwayrah and the others who were accused of apostasy? Are you going to deny that they were companions to begin with or do you accept the fact that Sahaba can become apostates but limit it to your desire?

I don't accuse companions of apostasy. But what I do say and believe is that certain Companions, their actions and stance in certain matters and situations is disappointing. And in some places is subject to crticisism and condemnation.

You believe that companions are clear of apostasy and criticism. Then you have double standards where you accuse certain Companions of apostasy during the reign of Abu Bakr and accuse some of making mistakes and getting it wrong like Ali and his reign.

owwwy, Malik Bin Nuwayrah became a Saint to the Rafidah, just because he and many of his tribe rejected a pillar of Islam. While, according to Sabaite theory, most of the Sahaba became APOSTATE by rejecting the "Divine Imamamamah"
- that's the difference in belief.

Bringing the Munafiqeen of Madinah , or the Zaqat denying tribe of yemen won't help in this case, because according to the standard of being a sahaba, those who did not accepted each and every rules of Islam from heart, were not sahaba at all. That's what happened to people of that tribe, after the Demise of Rasulullah( صلى الله عليه وسلم) they thought of stop paying the money ordered by Allah and his Rasul( صلى الله عليه وسلم)

Prophet( صلى الله عليه وسلم) was informed about these people in his lifetime-

Abu Huraira narrated that the Prophet (ﷺ) said:
"On the Day of Resurrection a group of companions will come to me, but will be driven away from the Lake-Fount, and I will say, 'O Lord (those are) my companions!' It will be said, 'You have no knowledge as to what they innovated after you left; they turned apostate as renegades (reverted from Islam). [BUkhari 6585]

[Muhammad Tazin]

"And, why are you worried for pen & paper incident, after that day, Prophet(PBUH) had enough time to declare succession or that sort of thing, but no sign or trace of IMAMAH there"

I'm not worried the slightest. And we aren't talking about Imamah. So I don't know why you keep bringing it in. Only to divert attention that is. Umar wasn't interested in what the Prophet s.a.w had to write by saying "you have the book of Allah with you, that is sufficient for us". Companions raised their voices in front of the Prophet s.a.w and argued in front of him. Some said he should be given the own and paper and should be allowed to write. The others disagreed. The behaviour was absolutely disgusting and in front of the Prophet s.a.w You can try hard as you want. It is what it is. And you can't wash it away or brush it under the carpet. I know how desperate you are.

"Allah taught sahaba how to behave among themselves while in front of Prophet(PBUH)"

And how exactly did they behave in front of the Prophet s.a.w is crystal clear when he asked for pen and paper. Stop protecting the guilty by dragging this on.

"Allah has mentioned them as those who have already believed"

I'm not questioning their belief, I'm just pointing out their behaviour and stance.

"which declared forgiveness for those who have acted upon the command of the 2nd ayat"

I'm not questioning whether or why they were forgiven or let off. Just pointing out that certain actions and behaviour puts you below others. You can't say, do, act and behave the way you want and then are placed above the others or given superiority above others. It's not just or fair. And it's beyond reason.

I provided a hadith as a proof that, Umar(ra) attained success in the test of Allah, and achieved forgiveness and great reward- which was mentioned in the ayat later. However, you are saying that you don't care whatever Allah declared , you want to write your own philosophy.

The behavior of the sahaba was due to the physical condition of  prophet(sallallahu alaihi wasallam), they were too much worried for him and and confused about whether to arrange writing in that terrible pain or not- this was the only tension. You can't claim that they were making chaos deliberately to snatch Imamah from Ahlul Bayt!
WHatever Umar said , was to not trouble Prophet( صلى الله عليه وسلم) when he was suffering from pained, he said-
فَقَالَ بَعْضُهُمْ إِنَّ رَسُولَ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم قَدْ غَلَبَهُ الْوَجَعُ وَعِنْدَكُمُ الْقُرْآنُ، حَسْبُنَا كِتَابُ اللَّهِ
'Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) is seriously ill and you have the (Holy) Qur'an. Allah's Book is sufficient for us.'
Believing the perfection of Quran and trying to relief Prophet( صلى الله عليه وسلم) from the troubles was wrong according to you?

for your kind information, Ummah got the message which was to be conveyed by Prophet( صلى الله عليه وسلم) -
" .....Leave me. I am better in the state (than the one in which you are engaged). I make a will about three things: Turn out the polytheists from the territory of Arabia; show hospitality to the (foreign) delegations as I used to show them hospitality. He (the narrator) said: He (Ibn Abbas) kept silent on the third point, or he (the narrator) said: But I forgot that."
https://sunnah.com/muslim/25/29

I am bringing Imamah here, because, that's the missing brick in the puzzle of Shiasm. We sunnis do not think that Islam lost any important things by these types of incidents or prophethood was failed to convey any important rulings just because of the so called "chaos" of sahaba.