The Door Incident

[Rationalist]

Salaam
This topic is for labelin theory who claims that he only quotes reliable ahadith from 'our books'.
In one of the topics he said..

6. No, I said don't quote weak hadith. I will debate with you with reliable sunni sources such as muslim and bukhari. I don't even need to use any weak hadith from the ahlsunnah to prove my points.

Then he said

the battle of the camel is not a disputed fact between sunni or shia, and the door falling on fatima because of the second caliph is in both sunni and shia sources.


Then for Muta you plagiarized by using this copy and paste as your reference.


Sahih Muslim, Book 007, Number 2801 & 2814
Musnad Ahmed, Volume 1 page 52 Hadith 369
Mustakhraj Abi Auwanah, Volume 7 page 159 Hadith 2713
Mustakhraj Abi Auwanah, Volume 4 page 255 Hadith 2697
Tarikh Madina, Volume 2 page 719
Sunnan Saeed bin Mansur, Volume 1 pages 218-219
Al-Mabsut by Sarkhasi, Volume 4 page 27
Musnad al-Shamyeen, Volume 3 page 320 Tradition 2399
Kanz al Ummal, Volume 8 page 93 Hadith 45715
al-Muhazraat, Volume 2 page 214 part 12
Tafseer al-Kabeer, Vol 4 pages 42 & 43
Zaad al Maad, Volume 2 page 205
Tafseer Qasmi, Volume 3 page 4

Now my question is do you actually believe that the any form of injury caused toward Fatima (sa) from Umar is authentic from the Sunni books ? Also, please don't copy and paste from anti Sunni sites. Bring proper proof from your own research.

[Muhammad Tazin]

Why did not he bother to mention the main body of the ahadith?!
just numbers are tough to match, as for Sahih Muslim hadith no. 2500-3000 etc. these numbers are in Chapter of Siyam and Hajj!!

[Muslim]

Walakum salaam. InshAllah you are well.

Bismillah


This topic is addressed to labelingtheory, but I'll respond with your permission.

From what I've read so far from the threads here, copying and pasting from anti-Shia websites is a common theme so you cannot ask him to refrain from doing the same. Nonetheless, with regards to Fatima. I'd like to ask you why she refused to speak to Caliph Abu Bakr till the day she died? Either he was wrong or she was wrong. Both of them could not have been morally-correct.

The Prophet once said in Bukhari:
"Fatima is a part of me, and whoever makes her angry, makes me angry."
Source: http://www.usc.edu/org/cmje/religious-texts/hadith/muslim/007-smt.php


Then we have the following tradition, also in Bukhari that I referred to earlier which says that Fatima refused to speak to him till the day she died: "Fatima, the daughter of Allah's Apostle got angry and stopped speaking to Abu Bakr, and continued assuming that attitude till she died."
Source: http://sahih-bukhari.com/Pages/Bukhari_4_53.php
Scan (blurry): http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-uQXlUSsTKkY/UVBAG2QdFXI/AAAAAAAAAxY/y-W7oYZSWCM/s320/TEXT+1.jpg

I know this is a bit different than what happened between her and Caliph Umar. However, it goes to show you that not everything was flowers and roses between the family of the Prophet and the Sahabah.

Now on to Fatima's contention with Caliph Umar's actions.


Umar came to the house of Fatima and demanded bayah. When Ali refused, Umar attacked their home and threatened to set it on fire. Eventually, he kicked in the door, causing Fatima to abort her child.

This is reported in great Sunni historian books like Tarikh al-Tabari, Ansab al-Ashraf, and Al-Imama wa al-Siyasa.
Directly from Tabari: "When Umar came to the door of the house of Fatimah, he said: 'By Allah, I shall burn down (the house) over you unless you come out and give the oath of allegiance (to Abu Bakr).' "


Here is a scan of a page in the works of Musnaf of Imam Abu Bakr Ibn Abi Shaybah:
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-xkQCTpTehJw/UVAqnjBDSoI/AAAAAAAAAuo/25F3I3JS4EY/s320/Al+Musnaf.png

And here it is in Ansab al-Ashraf:
http://wakeup313.blogspot.com/2013/03/fatimah-a.html

And here in History of Tabari:
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-IAo3UeuMWIQ/UVAr1TLQERI/AAAAAAAAAvU/DnMtyilxqqE/s320/1.png
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-p_FV0xlSW3w/UVAr1ImyFlI/AAAAAAAAAvQ/sKKhkUtpXkg/s320/2.png


I have more sources, but I'll suffice with these.

[Husayn]

From what I've read so far from the threads here, copying and pasting from anti-Shia websites is a common theme so you cannot ask him to refrain from doing the same.

The difference is that refutations from Ahlul Sunnah are almost always sound - i.e. they use authentic sources and don't twist and turn facts.

Refutations from 12ver sources are always unsound - i.e. the use of weak sources without regard for isnaad or matn, and blatant lying and misquoting.

Also - most of the sources that Ahlul Sunnah use on this forum are twelvershia.net articles.

As for the rest of your post, here is a piece of advise.

I was a rabid know-it-all 12ver like you once - and I used to run around posting things such as what you are posting. Do yourself a favour and do some reading (that isn't from al-islam.org or shiachat).

I'll help you out:

http://twelvershia.net/detailed-research-on-prophetic-inheritance/

There is an excellent article that answers every single 12ver shubha with regard to Fadak.

Why don't you read it, and if you are not satisfied with the answers, come back here and tell us why?

Then we have the following tradition, also in Bukhari that I referred to earlier which says that Fatima refused to speak to him till the day she died:

Oh, I see you are quoting Bukhari. Funny how you 12vers do that, right? Well, let me quote Bukhari:

Narrated Al-Miswar bin Makhrama:

'Ali demanded the hand of the daughter of Abu Jahl. Fatima heard of this and went to Allah's Apostle saying, "Your people think that you do not become angry for the sake of your daughters as 'Ali is now going to marry the daughter of Abu Jahl. "On that Allah's Apostle got up and fter his recitation of Tashah-hud. I heard him saying, "Then after! I married one of my daughters to Abu Al-'As bin Al-Rabi' (the husband of Zainab, the daughter of the Prophet ) before Islam and he proved truthful in whatever he said to me. No doubt, Fatima is a part of me, I hate to see her being troubled. By Allah, the daughter of Allah's Apostle and the daughter of Allah's Enemy cannot be the wives of one man." So 'Ali gave up that engagement.

'Al-Miswar further said: I heard the Prophet talking and he mentioned a son-in-law of his belonging to the tribe of Bani 'Abd-Shams. He highly praised him concerning that relationship and said (whenever) he spoke to me, he spoke the truth, and whenever he promised me, he fulfilled his promise."

Sunni Reference: Sahih al Al Bukhari, Volume 5, Book 57, Number 76


-----

So, is 'Ali going to hell like Abu Bakr, because Fatima got angry with him?

Or, let me guess, is this hadith fabricated?

[MuslimK]

Walakum salaam. InshAllah you are well.

Bismillah


This topic is addressed to labelingtheory, but I'll respond with your permission.

From what I've read so far from the threads here, copying and pasting from anti-Shia websites is a common theme so you cannot ask him to refrain from doing the same. Nonetheless, with regards to Fatima. I'd like to ask you why she refused to speak to Caliph Abu Bakr till the day she died? Either he was wrong or she was wrong. Both of them could not have been morally-correct.

The Prophet once said in Bukhari:
"Fatima is a part of me, and whoever makes her angry, makes me angry."
Source: http://www.usc.edu/org/cmje/religious-texts/hadith/muslim/007-smt.php


Then we have the following tradition, also in Bukhari that I referred to earlier which says that Fatima refused to speak to him till the day she died: "Fatima, the daughter of Allah's Apostle got angry and stopped speaking to Abu Bakr, and continued assuming that attitude till she died."
Source: http://sahih-bukhari.com/Pages/Bukhari_4_53.php
Scan (blurry): http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-uQXlUSsTKkY/UVBAG2QdFXI/AAAAAAAAAxY/y-W7oYZSWCM/s320/TEXT+1.jpg

Walaikum Salam,

Welcome to the forum.

Brother Husayn already replied. I would like to add a narration from Bukhari where Prophet (saw) said: "Don't harm me by harming Aisha". Now lets see what happens if someone apply your takfiri mentality here.

See here for more details: http://forum.twelvershia.net/sahabah-ahlulbayt/prophet-(saw)-'don't-trouble-me-by-harming-aisha'-(sahih-bukhari)/

I know this is a bit different than what happened between her and Caliph Umar. However, it goes to show you that not everything was flowers and roses between the family of the Prophet and the Sahabah.

A disagreement about a property is not a big deal. But of course those who who do ghulu with family of Prophet (saw), who claim they were infallible, higher than prophets in status, for such people it is a major issue.

Now on to Fatima's contention with Caliph Umar's actions.

Umar came to the house of Fatima and demanded bayah. When Ali refused, Umar attacked their home and threatened to set it on fire. Eventually, he kicked in the door, causing Fatima to abort her child.

This is reported in great Sunni historian books like Tarikh al-Tabari, Ansab al-Ashraf, and Al-Imama wa al-Siyasa.
Directly from Tabari: "When Umar came to the door of the house of Fatimah, he said: 'By Allah, I shall burn down (the house) over you unless you come out and give the oath of allegiance (to Abu Bakr).' "


Here is a scan of a page in the works of Musnaf of Imam Abu Bakr Ibn Abi Shaybah:
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-xkQCTpTehJw/UVAqnjBDSoI/AAAAAAAAAuo/25F3I3JS4EY/s320/Al+Musnaf.png

And here it is in Ansab al-Ashraf:
http://wakeup313.blogspot.com/2013/03/fatimah-a.html

And here in History of Tabari:
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-IAo3UeuMWIQ/UVAr1TLQERI/AAAAAAAAAvU/DnMtyilxqqE/s320/1.png
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-p_FV0xlSW3w/UVAr1ImyFlI/AAAAAAAAAvQ/sKKhkUtpXkg/s320/2.png


I have more sources, but I'll suffice with these.

The report from Musnaf Abi Shayba has the strongest chain of all about this topic but still it is WEAK due to disconnection in the chain. Secondly, it doesn't even prove that the house was attacked and burnt. Read here for more.

Imama wa Siyasa is not a Sunni book, it is falsely attributed to its author, and it reports are chainless anyways.

First the report from tabari is weak because of Ibn Humayd and other narrator. Secondly, the report doesn't prove the house was burned etc.

Read this for detailed discussion of the sources used by Shia.

[Rationalist]

Walakum salaam. InshAllah you are well.

Bismillah


This topic is addressed to labelingtheory, but I'll respond with your permission.

My permission ? What's the point of asking if you already replied.

From what I've read so far from the threads here, copying and pasting from anti-Shia websites is a common theme so you cannot ask him to refrain from doing the same. Nonetheless, with regards to Fatima. I'd like to ask you why she refused to speak to Caliph Abu Bakr till the day she died? Either he was wrong or she was wrong. Both of them could not have been morally-correct.

This is not part of the topic.

The Prophet once said in Bukhari:
"Fatima is a part of me, and whoever makes her angry, makes me angry."
Source: http://www.usc.edu/org/cmje/religious-texts/hadith/muslim/007-smt.php


Then we have the following tradition, also in Bukhari that I referred to earlier which says that Fatima refused to speak to him till the day she died: "Fatima, the daughter of Allah's Apostle got angry and stopped speaking to Abu Bakr, and continued assuming that attitude till she died."
Source: http://sahih-bukhari.com/Pages/Bukhari_4_53.php
Scan (blurry): http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-uQXlUSsTKkY/UVBAG2QdFXI/AAAAAAAAAxY/y-W7oYZSWCM/s320/TEXT+1.jpg

Again  not part of the topic.

I know this is a bit different than what happened between her and Caliph Umar. However, it goes to show you that not everything was flowers and roses between the family of the Prophet and the Sahabah.

Even Ahlul Bayt among the Hassani and Hussaini Sadaat differed on the Calipah. What your sect did both times is takfir. Even those who claimed Imamate in the household other than the 12, your sect said they are kaffir just because they differed from the 12 Imams.

Now on to Fatima's contention with Caliph Umar's actions.


Umar came to the house of Fatima and demanded bayah. When Ali refused, Umar attacked their home and threatened to set it on fire. Eventually, he kicked in the door, causing Fatima to abort her child.

I know the threat is authentic, but where are the sources for the kicking of the door ?

This is reported in great Sunni historian books like Tarikh al-Tabari, Ansab al-Ashraf, and Al-Imama wa al-Siyasa.
Directly from Tabari: "When Umar came to the door of the house of Fatimah, he said: 'By Allah, I shall burn down (the house) over you unless you come out and give the oath of allegiance (to Abu Bakr).' "

This is just a threat.

Here is a scan of a page in the works of Musnaf of Imam Abu Bakr Ibn Abi Shaybah:
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-xkQCTpTehJw/UVAqnjBDSoI/AAAAAAAAAuo/25F3I3JS4EY/s320/Al+Musnaf.png

And here it is in Ansab al-Ashraf:
http://wakeup313.blogspot.com/2013/03/fatimah-a.html

And here in History of Tabari:
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-IAo3UeuMWIQ/UVAr1TLQERI/AAAAAAAAAvU/DnMtyilxqqE/s320/1.png
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-p_FV0xlSW3w/UVAr1ImyFlI/AAAAAAAAAvQ/sKKhkUtpXkg/s320/2.png

Again the only authentic reports are the ones which say he made the threat.

I have more sources, but I'll suffice with these.

Only do so if you can prove the chains are authentic. Otherwise I can quote random stuff from your books too such as the 12th Imam returning to resurrect the first 2 Calipahs and Ayesha and punishing them with fatalities like the Mortal Kombat video game. Also, in another source he appears naked like Arnold in Terminator movies.

[Ameen]

From what I've read so far from the threads here, copying and pasting from anti-Shia websites is a common theme so you cannot ask him to refrain from doing the same.

The difference is that refutations from Ahlul Sunnah are almost always sound - i.e. they use authentic sources and don't twist and turn facts.

Refutations from 12ver sources are always unsound - i.e. the use of weak sources without regard for isnaad or matn, and blatant lying and misquoting.

Also - most of the sources that Ahlul Sunnah use on this forum are twelvershia.net articles.

As for the rest of your post, here is a piece of advise.

I was a rabid know-it-all 12ver like you once - and I used to run around posting things such as what you are posting. Do yourself a favour and do some reading (that isn't from al-islam.org or shiachat).

I'll help you out:

http://twelvershia.net/detailed-research-on-prophetic-inheritance/

There is an excellent article that answers every single 12ver shubha with regard to Fadak.

Why don't you read it, and if you are not satisfied with the answers, come back here and tell us why?

Then we have the following tradition, also in Bukhari that I referred to earlier which says that Fatima refused to speak to him till the day she died:

Oh, I see you are quoting Bukhari. Funny how you 12vers do that, right? Well, let me quote Bukhari:

Narrated Al-Miswar bin Makhrama:

'Ali demanded the hand of the daughter of Abu Jahl. Fatima heard of this and went to Allah's Apostle saying, "Your people think that you do not become angry for the sake of your daughters as 'Ali is now going to marry the daughter of Abu Jahl. "On that Allah's Apostle got up and fter his recitation of Tashah-hud. I heard him saying, "Then after! I married one of my daughters to Abu Al-'As bin Al-Rabi' (the husband of Zainab, the daughter of the Prophet ) before Islam and he proved truthful in whatever he said to me. No doubt, Fatima is a part of me, I hate to see her being troubled. By Allah, the daughter of Allah's Apostle and the daughter of Allah's Enemy cannot be the wives of one man." So 'Ali gave up that engagement.

'Al-Miswar further said: I heard the Prophet talking and he mentioned a son-in-law of his belonging to the tribe of Bani 'Abd-Shams. He highly praised him concerning that relationship and said (whenever) he spoke to me, he spoke the truth, and whenever he promised me, he fulfilled his promise."

Sunni Reference: Sahih al Al Bukhari, Volume 5, Book 57, Number 76


-----

So, is 'Ali going to hell like Abu Bakr, because Fatima got angry with him?

Or, let me guess, is this hadith fabricated?

Ok brother Husayn, this has been put forward and discussed many times but every time the matter of Hazrath Fatimah (as) and Hazrath Abu Bakar (ra) is discussed, Hazrath Ali (as) is brought in to it to divert the attention and to derail the matter. Discuss the matter first rather than bringing in a totally different matter to challenge the matter being discussed.

Next Hazrath Ali (as) wanted to marry the daughter of Abu Jahil??? Why??? What was the reason for this??? Why did he want to do that??? Did Ali (as) know that he is the enemy of the Prophet (pbuh) Was his daughter a Muslimah, the one Ali (as) desired to marry???

The Ahle Sunnah scholars say that the marriage of Hazrath Fatimah (as) with Hazrath Ali (as) was desired and ordered by Allah. They say that this was the will of Allah and Allah chose the groom for Hazrath Fatimah (as). So what kind of a groom do we have here who wants to marry the daughter of the Messenger's (pbuh) enemy???

[Ameen]

Brothers like I said before, what are your standards on what is authentic and what not??? How do you decide and get to know on what is authentic and what isn't??? Come on, there has to be some kind of procedure you have. Brother rationalist talks about an authentic chain, what chain is this??? Unless you tell us, we won't know. Or is it that what ever goes against your ideology, belief, faith, thought, opinion and point of view is tiqqa, weak, not reliable and authentic and what doesn't is???

[Furkan]

Maybe our religion is based on authentic reports, whilst yours isn't?

[Ameen]

Maybe our religion is based on authentic reports, whilst yours isn't?

Well it's obvious you don't have a positive and constructive answer. It doesn't surprise me.

[MuslimK]

Brothers like I said before, what are your standards on what is authentic and what not??? How do you decide and get to know on what is authentic and what isn't??? Come on, there has to be some kind of procedure you have. Brother rationalist talks about an authentic chain, what chain is this??? Unless you tell us, we won't know.

You will not comprehend it. 

Or is it that what ever goes against your ideology, belief, faith, thought, opinion and point of view is tiqqa, weak, not reliable and authentic and what doesn't is???

That is twelver Shiism in a nutshell.

[Optimus Prime]

From what I've read so far from the threads here, copying and pasting from anti-Shia websites is a common theme so you cannot ask him to refrain from doing the same.

The difference is that refutations from Ahlul Sunnah are almost always sound - i.e. they use authentic sources and don't twist and turn facts.

Refutations from 12ver sources are always unsound - i.e. the use of weak sources without regard for isnaad or matn, and blatant lying and misquoting.

Also - most of the sources that Ahlul Sunnah use on this forum are twelvershia.net articles.

As for the rest of your post, here is a piece of advise.

I was a rabid know-it-all 12ver like you once - and I used to run around posting things such as what you are posting. Do yourself a favour and do some reading (that isn't from al-islam.org or shiachat).

I'll help you out:

http://twelvershia.net/detailed-research-on-prophetic-inheritance/

There is an excellent article that answers every single 12ver shubha with regard to Fadak.

Why don't you read it, and if you are not satisfied with the answers, come back here and tell us why?

Then we have the following tradition, also in Bukhari that I referred to earlier which says that Fatima refused to speak to him till the day she died:

Oh, I see you are quoting Bukhari. Funny how you 12vers do that, right? Well, let me quote Bukhari:

Narrated Al-Miswar bin Makhrama:

'Ali demanded the hand of the daughter of Abu Jahl. Fatima heard of this and went to Allah's Apostle saying, "Your people think that you do not become angry for the sake of your daughters as 'Ali is now going to marry the daughter of Abu Jahl. "On that Allah's Apostle got up and fter his recitation of Tashah-hud. I heard him saying, "Then after! I married one of my daughters to Abu Al-'As bin Al-Rabi' (the husband of Zainab, the daughter of the Prophet ) before Islam and he proved truthful in whatever he said to me. No doubt, Fatima is a part of me, I hate to see her being troubled. By Allah, the daughter of Allah's Apostle and the daughter of Allah's Enemy cannot be the wives of one man." So 'Ali gave up that engagement.

'Al-Miswar further said: I heard the Prophet talking and he mentioned a son-in-law of his belonging to the tribe of Bani 'Abd-Shams. He highly praised him concerning that relationship and said (whenever) he spoke to me, he spoke the truth, and whenever he promised me, he fulfilled his promise."

Sunni Reference: Sahih al Al Bukhari, Volume 5, Book 57, Number 76


-----

So, is 'Ali going to hell like Abu Bakr, because Fatima got angry with him?

Or, let me guess, is this hadith fabricated?

Ok brother Husayn, this has been put forward and discussed many times but every time the matter of Hazrath Fatimah (as) and Hazrath Abu Bakar (ra) is discussed, Hazrath Ali (as) is brought in to it to divert the attention and to derail the matter. Discuss the matter first rather than bringing in a totally different matter to challenge the matter being discussed.

Next Hazrath Ali (as) wanted to marry the daughter of Abu Jahil??? Why??? What was the reason for this??? Why did he want to do that??? Did Ali (as) know that he is the enemy of the Prophet (pbuh) Was his daughter a Muslimah, the one Ali (as) desired to marry???

The Ahle Sunnah scholars say that the marriage of Hazrath Fatimah (as) with Hazrath Ali (as) was desired and ordered by Allah. They say that this was the will of Allah and Allah chose the groom for Hazrath Fatimah (as). So what kind of a groom do we have here who wants to marry the daughter of the Messenger's (pbuh) enemy???

I provided you a reference for this, and it shows how Ali (RA) was certainly not infallible.

[Optimus Prime]

Brothers like I said before, what are your standards on what is authentic and what not??? How do you decide and get to know on what is authentic and what isn't??? Come on, there has to be some kind of procedure you have. Brother rationalist talks about an authentic chain, what chain is this??? Unless you tell us, we won't know. Or is it that what ever goes against your ideology, belief, faith, thought, opinion and point of view is tiqqa, weak, not reliable and authentic and what doesn't is???

Ask this question in the rijal section, and I can betcha' brother Hani or/and Farid will provide you wth an adequate response.

[Husayn]

@ Ameen

Ok brother Husayn, this has been put forward and discussed many times but every time the matter of Hazrath Fatimah (as) and Hazrath Abu Bakar (ra) is discussed, Hazrath Ali (as) is brought in to it to divert the attention and to derail the matter. Discuss the matter first rather than bringing in a totally different matter to challenge the matter being discussed.

The problem, oh Ameen, is that 12vers constantly harp on about how Fatima was supposedly angry with Abu Bakr, and they mention the hadith of "Fatima bidh'autun mini" e.t.c.

They take this hadith from Bukhari - but when we quote a hadith from Bukhari about how Fatima became angry with 'Ali over something, they make thousands of excuses, and prefer to reject the narration all together.

But when it comes to Abu Bakr - are the 12vers willing to make even a single excuse?

Ofcourse not - because you are hypocrites.

------

Now, as for the issue of Fatima, her anger, and the Prophet's words, this is my opinion:

- Fatima was a fallible human being, and she was a young girl, and all young girls, no matter how knowledgeable or pious, are prone to getting annoyed and angry. This is normal, and every father, husband or brother knows that this is true. Saying this is not an insult, it is a fact.

The same could be said for 'Aisha - she would get annoyed and angry whenever the Prophet mentioned Khadija, for example, or would become jealous when he showed attention to his other wives.

This is normal, this is how young girls are.

- The Prophet's statement about Fatima being a part of him, and whoever angers her angers him, is something any father feels for any daughter of his.

- Fatima's anger is not a barometer of kufr or imaan - especially when this anger is not justified. In the case of Fadak, even if Fatima got angry with Abu Bakr, is this his fault? No, he did what was right, and Fatima was angry because she disagreed with him and thought that she was in the right. Moreso, she was sick and grieved due to the passing away of Rasul Allah (saw), which made her temperament even worse.. Is this abnormal for a teenage girl who is going through such a stressful time? No, this is perfectly normal! And Abu Bakr treated Fatima with utmost respect - I am sure if it was 'Aisha he would have been much harsher.

- Abu Bakr had a very heavy task on his shoulders - and his remaining steadfast, even when faced with the displeasure of Banu Hashim, is a testament to his strength of character. Weaker men would have buckled trying to seek the pleasure of the kin of Rasul Allah (saw) - but he placed obedience to Allah (swt) over this, and this is why Allah (swt) gave him his favour and victory.

[Mussana]

I have read somewhere that the original word used in Bukhari is that hazrat Fatima(ra) became silent not angry when she heard the reply of Hazrat Abu bakr (ra) . It is only in the translations that the word angry is used.

[labelingtheory]

@ Ameen

Ok brother Husayn, this has been put forward and discussed many times but every time the matter of Hazrath Fatimah (as) and Hazrath Abu Bakar (ra) is discussed, Hazrath Ali (as) is brought in to it to divert the attention and to derail the matter. Discuss the matter first rather than bringing in a totally different matter to challenge the matter being discussed.

The problem, oh Ameen, is that 12vers constantly harp on about how Fatima was supposedly angry with Abu Bakr, and they mention the hadith of "Fatima bidh'autun mini" e.t.c.

They take this hadith from Bukhari - but when we quote a hadith from Bukhari about how Fatima became angry with 'Ali over something, they make thousands of excuses, and prefer to reject the narration all together.

But when it comes to Abu Bakr - are the 12vers willing to make even a single excuse?

Ofcourse not - because you are hypocrites.

------

Now, as for the issue of Fatima, her anger, and the Prophet's words, this is my opinion:

- Fatima was a fallible human being, and she was a young girl, and all young girls, no matter how knowledgeable or pious, are prone to getting annoyed and angry. This is normal, and every father, husband or brother knows that this is true. Saying this is not an insult, it is a fact.

The same could be said for 'Aisha - she would get annoyed and angry whenever the Prophet mentioned Khadija, for example, or would become jealous when he showed attention to his other wives.

This is normal, this is how young girls are.

- The Prophet's statement about Fatima being a part of him, and whoever angers her angers him, is something any father feels for any daughter of his.

- Fatima's anger is not a barometer of kufr or imaan - especially when this anger is not justified. In the case of Fadak, even if Fatima got angry with Abu Bakr, is this his fault? No, he did what was right, and Fatima was angry because she disagreed with him and thought that she was in the right. Moreso, she was sick and grieved due to the passing away of Rasul Allah (saw), which made her temperament even worse.. Is this abnormal for a teenage girl who is going through such a stressful time? No, this is perfectly normal! And Abu Bakr treated Fatima with utmost respect - I am sure if it was 'Aisha he would have been much harsher.

- Abu Bakr had a very heavy task on his shoulders - and his remaining steadfast, even when faced with the displeasure of Banu Hashim, is a testament to his strength of character. Weaker men would have buckled trying to seek the pleasure of the kin of Rasul Allah (saw) - but he placed obedience to Allah (swt) over this, and this is why Allah (swt) gave him his favour and victory.

@mussana - know it is clear in history she never spoke to him out of anger, both sunni and shia scholars believe this.
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The difference is that in your hadith she was not angry at Ali for the entirety of her life. She never spoke to Abu Bakr till she died. It is sad that you think of women to be irrational and so emotional, that is pretty sexist to say the least. She was the Prophet's daughter, give her the respect she deserves. There is a reason why we don't know where she is buried today.

How dare you say she was wrong about fadak? Her argument against Abu Bakr was clear that there were prophet's in the Qur'an who gave away inheritance. He was completely wrong on the issue of fadak, and this is why fadak was even given back to the prophet's family many years later.

There is a sahih hadith by the holy prophet (pbuh) that said if you die without knowing your Imam you die the death of jahilliya. Tell me who was the Imam of Fatima if she never spoke to Abu Bakr. You will never be able to answer this question.

[Husayn]

Prophets don't leave inheritance, according to 12ver hadith also.

I posted this thread on shiachat many years ago:

http://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/234922233-hadith-analysis-requested-prophets-do-not-leave-inheritance/

The hadith in question is:

Muhammad ibn al-Hassan and Ali ibn Muhammad has narrated from Sahl ibn Ziyad and Muhammad ibn Yahya from Ahmad ibn Muhammad, all from Ja’far ibn Muhammad al-Ash’ari from 'Abdullah ibn Maymun al-Qaddah and Ali ibn Ibrahim from his father from Hammad ibn ‘Isa from al-Qaddah from abu ‘Abdallah (a.s.) who has said the following.

"The holy Prophet has said, ‘If one sets out on a journey to seek knowledge Allah will lead him to the way that would take him to paradise. The angels will stretch their wings for the pleasure of the seeker of knowledge and all that is in the heavens and earth even the whales in the oceans will ask forgiveness for him (from Allah). The excellence of the scholar over other people is like that of the moon over other stars during a full-moon night. The scholars are the heirs of the prophets. The prophets did not leave any Dirham or Dinar (wealth) as their legacy but they did leave knowledge as their legacy. Whoever acquires a share from such legacy has gained a very large share.’"

How dare you say she was wrong about fadak? Her argument against Abu Bakr was clear that there were prophet's in the Qur'an who gave away inheritance. He was completely wrong on the issue of fadak, and this is why fadak was even given back to the prophet's family many years later.

It was given to them to administer, not as an inheritance.

[Mussana]

@mussana - know it is clear in history she never spoke to him out of anger, both sunni and shia scholars believe this.

Sorry , Can't take that  to be true when it is clear from a lot of narrations that it was the wife of hazrat Abu bakr (ra) that looked after hazrat Fatima (ra) during her last days.

How is it possible that the wife was looking after someone who was "angry" at her husband.

[Mussana]

There is one terminology called Mudraj in Hadith sciences.

The word “anger” is only mentioned in the Hadith transmitted from Hazrat Aisha[ra]. It is not mentioned in the Hadith narrated from other companions like Hazrat Abu Huraira, Hazrat Um Hani, etc.

Further the hadith narrated from Hazrat Aisha is of two types, one type mentions the word “anger” while the other type does not mention “anger”. The hadith which mention the word “anger” are all narrated by Ibn Shahab Zehri [well known for his idraaj of statements].

    Al-Zuhri make idraaj of statements into hadiths from time to time, yet, he does it mainly to explain it.
    You can find many examples in a book by Al-Khateeb Al-Baghdaadi that gives examples of Mudraj statements.
    Here is the most famous one that comes to mind.

    أول ما بدئ بالرسول الوحي قالت: كان يتحنث في غار حراء والتحنث التعبد الليالي ذوات العدد
    الراوي: عائشة المحدث: ابن عثيمين – المصدر: شرح النزهة لابن عثيمين – الصفحة أو الرقم: 208
    خلاصة حكم المحدث: عبارة (والتحنث: التعبد) مدرجة من كلام الزهري تفسيرا للحديث

This means that after Hazrat Abu Bakr RA had mentioned the reason for not giving Hazrat Fatima RA the share in Fadak, the latter had become silent after being satisfied. The narrator equated “silence” to “anger” and added the words to the hadith [to explain it]. This is also known as Mudraj in Hadith sciences.

[labelingtheory]

@mussana - know it is clear in history she never spoke to him out of anger, both sunni and shia scholars believe this.

Sorry , Can't take that  to be true when it is clear from a lot of narrations that it was the wife of hazrat Abu bakr (ra) that looked after hazrat Fatima (ra) during her last days.

How is it possible that the wife was looking after someone who was "angry" at her husband.

You can't accept what the majority of scholars believe? Why don't you just read the arabic of the hadith. Even sunni sheikhs that have come to my university will admit this.

Let me guess you are going to say that Aisha waged war against Ali (ra) because of her love towards the family of the prophet?

Your arguments are weak, learn to read arabic then talk to me please. Jazaks to the max.