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The myth about the conversion of Khalifah Umar

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whoaretheshia

Re: The myth about the conversion of Khalifah Umar
« Reply #20 on: December 02, 2017, 09:19:36 PM »
Just a message to brother GreatChinese:

1. I know full well that if you see someone in a state if worry, despite knowing what is wrong you can ask them 'what is the matter?' However, you must consider my argument is built on the question and the response. Not only does he ask him whats wrong,  Umar replies that should he convert to Islam, the people threaten they would kill or harm him. However, Al-'As not only asked him what is wrong after seeing him in a fearful state, Umar did not reply 'they are still out to harm me', or 'They continue to harm me'. Rather he says 'If he were to convert to Islam, they threaten to kill/harm him'. The reality is, Al-'As already knew this. Umar knew that Al-'As knew this. The way the conversation went is not how you would expect it to go if Umar ibn al-Khattab had fought the Kuffar dawn to dusk, attacked them and then they resolved to try to harm him. If we accept brother Noors argument, then Umar ought to have said 'they are still out to try to harm me'. However, the way Umar phrases it implies he may have converted, they may have known, and that they were now planning to try to punish him for it, which is why he had hidden in fear in his house.

I am not claiming accept this point on a stand alone, but when taken with the other points, together, it is a compelling argument as to why i personally believe the two versions are not reconcilable.

2. A massive part of brother Noors argument is the first action by Al-'As did not signify protection, but that when they recognised he had actually protected him, they then respected and feared Al-'As and put weight into his protection. Your points about al-Abbas therefore do not apply. Al-'As commanded such respect that when they knew he was under their protection, they dispersed. In the example of al-Abbas they kept attacking and al-Abbas had to kneel over and rescue him twice.  This is an extremely important point.

So when you take into account the fact not only did al-'As not know what seemed to be the worry with Umar, but the fact Umar had to explicitly state was he to convert to Islam they threatened to kill him (he had already converted and it was known). While it is not out of the question al-'As may have known this and Umar was already saying again what he had know, the wording supports my view, than your view. Had AL-'As known he would have been told "The people are still out to get me for having converted to Islam". This would fit perfectly with a narrative that they had attacked him before. However , the fact he said they would attack him was he to convert to Islam strongly supports the interpretation that they had heard rumours he had converted and had not explicitly attacked him yet, which is why Umar having known that they would harm him was in his house.

2B. Protection was granted in the tradition of Musnad Ahmad. Had the people not have valued his protection, it would have not worked by him merely telling them to go away and not to harm him in the tradition of Bukhari. Me and Noor agree that protection given by Al-'As had strong weight, such that that they would disperse and not return and so our debate is whether or not what is in Musnad can be considered protection? Therefore in addition to what i have mentioned your point about al-Abbas is not evidence.

I strongly feel anyone reading this objectively will see where i am coming from.

3. In my posts i have consistently believed the protection given him was explicit, and in my later posts i clarified that i believe you do not need to claim 'someone is now under the protection of my tribe' for it to be support. Al-'As never did that in Bukhari. All he said was no-one can harm Umar.

4. It makes absolutely no sense for Umar ibn al-Khattab to start fighting dawn to dusk , beating up the Kuffar, poking their eyes, sitting on their chests, going from door to door and proclaiming his Islam knowing full well this will aggravate them and make them want to harm him , and the in another version hiding in his home out of fear that if they had known he converted they would kill or harm him.

The versions can not be rationally reconciled. Rather the most accurate understanding is that when Umar converted to Islam, the polytheists heard about it, and Umar had subsequently heard that they may harm him, and so he hid in his home our of fear, because he was worried how they would react. Al-'As who was an Ally and from the tribe of those who were allies came to see Umar and asked him why he was concerned and worried, and learned that he fears he would be hurt. Upon this, Al-'As went out and made his way to those wanting to harm him, and asked them where they were going in the accusative sense knowing well well where they were going. They did not know Al-As knew! When they told him and Al-'As told them no-one should harm Umar, then they retreated.

If the tradition in Musnad was authentic, why on earth would they have needed to tell Al-As knowing full well he protected Umar and would not permit them to harm him? He was already under his protection and so they  did not need to tell al-'As that , because they saw him defiantly come into his defence earlier. Rather this was the first time Al'As or the polytheists were addressing each other about Umar, and as soon as they recognised Umar had an Ally, they dispersed. They did not realise Al-'As would defend Umar, and when they found out he indeed would defend him, they recognised Umar had a defender in a power man like Al-'As and that they would not harm him.

Brothers have to accept this is no insult to Khalifah Umar. I would be lying if i claimed i would not fear if i knew people were out to harm me for converting. Most of us on this forum would have some fear in our hearts. In fact, it might even be a merit of Umar that he converted knowing people may be out to harm him. However, i sincerely do not feel the stories and tales of him fighting dawn to dusk, gloating to the polytheists, poking their eyes, and sitting on their chests is tenable, makes sense, or can be reconciled with the more authentic version of events in al-Bukhari.



« Last Edit: December 02, 2017, 09:31:01 PM by whoaretheshia »
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" O you who have believed, be persistently standing firm in justice.. even if it be against yourselves... So follow not [personal] inclination, lest you not be jus

Farid

Re: The myth about the conversion of Khalifah Umar
« Reply #21 on: December 03, 2017, 02:29:13 AM »
WhoaretheShias does have a point.

Noor, the narration that you have presented is weak due to the 'an'ana of Ibn Ishaaq. I am not sure why there is any need to reconcile it with the narration in Saheeh Al-Bukhari.

Keep in mind that there is no shame in fearing for one's life under such circumstances. They all lived in a closed-knit community that actually killed some who converted to Islam. There is also no shame in Omar receiving protection from a mushrik uncle. Even the Prophet peace be upon him received protection from his mushrik uncle. Where is the shame in this?

Hadrami

Re: The myth about the conversion of Khalifah Umar
« Reply #22 on: December 03, 2017, 12:07:53 PM »
WhoaretheShias does have a point.

Noor, the narration that you have presented is weak due to the 'an'ana of Ibn Ishaaq. I am not sure why there is any need to reconcile it with the narration in Saheeh Al-Bukhari.

Keep in mind that there is no shame in fearing for one's life under such circumstances. They all lived in a closed-knit community that actually killed some who converted to Islam. There is also no shame in Omar receiving protection from a mushrik uncle. Even the Prophet peace be upon him received protection from his mushrik uncle. Where is the shame in this?
All normal human have fear, but the biggest shame is if so called superhuman fear for 1300+ year 😉

zaid_ibn_ali

Re: The myth about the conversion of Khalifah Umar
« Reply #23 on: December 03, 2017, 02:44:06 PM »
Exactly why the OP has no credibility. How can you attack anyone for being fearful of their life when your leader has been hiding in fear for over a millenium & you believe in Imams who misguided out of fear?

Hadrami

Re: The myth about the conversion of Khalifah Umar
« Reply #24 on: December 04, 2017, 06:30:08 AM »
Exactly why the OP has no credibility. How can you attack anyone for being fearful of their life when your leader has been hiding in fear for over a millenium & you believe in Imams who misguided out of fear?
To be fair, he said it could be merit for Umar that he still converted even when he fear for his life. Besides even if he was afraid, we know hes been to many battles and never hide from his enemy all his life let alone for 1300+ year. He was brave enough to face his enemies, unlike the most coward leader ever in the history of mankind.

GreatChineseFall

Re: The myth about the conversion of Khalifah Umar
« Reply #25 on: December 09, 2017, 12:43:06 PM »
@whoaretheshia

I was going to respond but I first wanted to know if you are aware of the following narration in Sahih al Bukhari and your view regarding it:
Quote
Narrated Ibn ‘Umar: When `Umar embraced Islam, all The (disbelieving) people gathered around his home and said, "`Umar has embraced Islam." At that time I was still a boy and was on the roof of my house. There came a man wearing a cloak of Dibaj (i.e. a kind of silk), and said, "`Umar has embraced Islam. Nobody can harm him for I am his protector." I then saw the people going away from `Umar and asked who the man was, and they said, "Al-`As bin Wail."

Is this reconcilable with the narration you shared?

whoaretheshia

Re: The myth about the conversion of Khalifah Umar
« Reply #26 on: December 10, 2017, 05:05:38 AM »
WhoaretheShias does have a point.

Noor, the narration that you have presented is weak due to the 'an'ana of Ibn Ishaaq. I am not sure why there is any need to reconcile it with the narration in Saheeh Al-Bukhari.

Keep in mind that there is no shame in fearing for one's life under such circumstances. They all lived in a closed-knit community that actually killed some who converted to Islam. There is also no shame in Omar receiving protection from a mushrik uncle. Even the Prophet peace be upon him received protection from his mushrik uncle. Where is the shame in this?

You know, when i read this an enormous amount of respect for Farid grew in me. No doubt he considers me a deviant, and i consider him the same in terms of beliefs we have, and we both consider each other mistaken and in error in terms of our methods and judgements, but to see someone going against his own fellow users. While i profoundly disagree with some of the things he has said, and his methods, and at times not responding to points when we both know it would be better to offer a retraction, this proves that at least within himself, he has some inbuilt values and stays true to himself.

And i agree, as a Shia i say there is no shame whatsoever in Khalifah Umar seeking protection, and if (and this is a big IF) the version in Bukhari can be taken as reliable, it is actually really credit to Umar for converting despite knowing the backlash. My view of Abu Bakr and Umar is not a polarised view, and there is no doubt there was some worthy and notable virtue in these men. However, unfortunately, when it came to key decisions and a holistic assessment of them, while i deem Abu Bakr as greater in character, intelligence, and demeanour, with respect both are among those i do not take from.
DISCLAIMER: I AM AWAY UNTIL THE START OF THE NEW YEAR, PM ME IF I OWE YOU A REPLY, MAY ALLAH HAVE MERCY ON ALL OF US, FI AMANILLAH
" O you who have believed, be persistently standing firm in justice.. even if it be against yourselves... So follow not [personal] inclination, lest you not be jus

whoaretheshia

Re: The myth about the conversion of Khalifah Umar
« Reply #27 on: December 10, 2017, 05:08:53 AM »
Just a point:

1. If the narration in Bukhari is true and accurate about the conversion of Khalifah Umar ibn al-Khattab, objectively this would actually be in his favour, considering he converted when he feared for  his life. How many of us here would not be scared if we knew people were out to get us, for accepting truth?

2. The very exaggerated narration Imam Ahmad recorded that is spoken on the pulpits all over the world as if it were some kind of a fact, in fact, is not in any objective manner justly reconcilable with what Imam Bukhari added into his Saheeh.

That is all i was trying to say - offer up an academic perspective, and not just try to abuse or insult a revered figure to put him down to score points, but to just get to the truth of who this individual was and what occurred in his life as best as we can.
DISCLAIMER: I AM AWAY UNTIL THE START OF THE NEW YEAR, PM ME IF I OWE YOU A REPLY, MAY ALLAH HAVE MERCY ON ALL OF US, FI AMANILLAH
" O you who have believed, be persistently standing firm in justice.. even if it be against yourselves... So follow not [personal] inclination, lest you not be jus

whoaretheshia

Re: The myth about the conversion of Khalifah Umar
« Reply #28 on: December 10, 2017, 05:12:09 AM »
@whoaretheshia

I was going to respond but I first wanted to know if you are aware of the following narration in Sahih al Bukhari and your view regarding it:
Is this reconcilable with the narration you shared?

Yes, because the event is the very same as the version i have posted (which in my personal copy of Saheeh Bukhari is on the same page as the other version). The timing is the same, the gathering around the house is the same, Khalifah Umar presumably being in his house is the same, the behaviour of all the notable groups is the same, and the only thing that differs is wording, but the wordings all express the same meaning.

I say if the traditions were authentically transmitted, then the variation in wording is a minute detail and probably the fault of someone later down in one of the chains.
DISCLAIMER: I AM AWAY UNTIL THE START OF THE NEW YEAR, PM ME IF I OWE YOU A REPLY, MAY ALLAH HAVE MERCY ON ALL OF US, FI AMANILLAH
" O you who have believed, be persistently standing firm in justice.. even if it be against yourselves... So follow not [personal] inclination, lest you not be jus

whoaretheshia

Re: The myth about the conversion of Khalifah Umar
« Reply #29 on: December 10, 2017, 05:13:49 AM »
Exactly why the OP has no credibility. How can you attack anyone for being fearful of their life when your leader has been hiding in fear for over a millenium & you believe in Imams who misguided out of fear?

The Imam attack you are making is fallacious and not the same kind of example whatsoever and not true in fact, in its essence. That is for another thread, however, i have said quite clearly it is something worthy of merit , rather than something to be blamed on, and i was not attacking him, but attacking what i felt was a very fanciful and highly exaggerated second version.
DISCLAIMER: I AM AWAY UNTIL THE START OF THE NEW YEAR, PM ME IF I OWE YOU A REPLY, MAY ALLAH HAVE MERCY ON ALL OF US, FI AMANILLAH
" O you who have believed, be persistently standing firm in justice.. even if it be against yourselves... So follow not [personal] inclination, lest you not be jus

whoaretheshia

Re: The myth about the conversion of Khalifah Umar
« Reply #30 on: December 10, 2017, 07:06:58 AM »
I will be away until the turn of the new year, inshAllah. If i owe you a reply, PM me (and thread counts). I'm not allowed to reference my website, but if you know of it already and want a quicker response then you would be best emailing me directly under the send us a questions page.  Fi Amanillah. Forgive me if i have ever wronged you, hurt you, or otherwise in any manner. I am aware of the high position Khalifah Umar holds in your eyes, and try to engage in these discussion bearing this in mind.

I seek the forgiveness of Allah, his mercy, and his guidance for all of us, only on Allah do the believers rely.
DISCLAIMER: I AM AWAY UNTIL THE START OF THE NEW YEAR, PM ME IF I OWE YOU A REPLY, MAY ALLAH HAVE MERCY ON ALL OF US, FI AMANILLAH
" O you who have believed, be persistently standing firm in justice.. even if it be against yourselves... So follow not [personal] inclination, lest you not be jus

Hani

Re: The myth about the conversion of Khalifah Umar
« Reply #31 on: December 10, 2017, 09:05:15 AM »
There's a bunch of stories about how he embraced Islam, one can go and reconcile but they're mostly weak anyway. As for the story in the OP it shows the man's bravery as was previously stated, for he openly embraced Islam, he was a remarkable figure in Quraysh, the news spread and a mob gathered to kill him, he didn't run or hide, he stayed in his house knowing he might face certain death.

If you want to read all the stories check Ibn al-Jawzi's book on `Umar he includes them with their chains.
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

Hadrami

Re: The myth about the conversion of Khalifah Umar
« Reply #32 on: December 10, 2017, 12:40:50 PM »
There's a bunch of stories about how he embraced Islam, one can go and reconcile but they're mostly weak anyway. As for the story in the OP it shows the man's bravery as was previously stated, for he openly embraced Islam, he was a remarkable figure in Quraysh, the news spread and a mob gathered to kill him, he didn't run or hide, he stayed in his house knowing he might face certain death.

If you want to read all the stories check Ibn al-Jawzi's book on `Umar he includes them with their chains.
I always love to mention the red part. It shows how pathetic their current leader is 😁

Noor-us-Sunnah

Re: The myth about the conversion of Khalifah Umar
« Reply #33 on: December 13, 2017, 05:30:21 AM »
Differences between the narration of Fadhail Sahaba by Imam Ahmad and Sahih Bukhari.


Fadhail Sahaba:           

1. Location: In this Hadeeth Umar(ra) was outside of his home not inside. He was near the door of the mosque.

Bukhari:
1. Location:  In this hadeeth umar(ra) was inside his home, not outside.


Fadhail Sahaba:
2. The people who attacked him were gathered around Umar(ra).

Bukhari:
2. The people were streaming in the whole valley, Umar was inside his home.


Fadhail Sahaba:
3. Aas bin wail approached the people who gathered around Umar(ra) and questioned those people, they replied Umar(ra) became a Muslim.

Bukhari
3. Aas bin wail came into the house of Umar(ra), he questioned Umar not the people.


Fadhail Sahaba :
4. Aas bin wail reminded PEOPLE that if they kill Umar(ra) then the tribe of Umar will retaliate, so they dispersed. Here there is no mention of tribal protection.

Bukhari :
4. Aas bin wail said to UMAR(ra) that Umar will be safe if he gives protection to him. Here Aas is giving tribal protection to Umar(ra).


Fadhail Sahaba:
5. When Aas bin wail informed people who were gathered around umar(ra) that the tribe of Umar will retaliate if they kill him, they dispersed.

Bukhari:
5. Since Aas bin wail decided to give Umar(ra) his tribal protection, the tribe of Aas bin wail was different than the tribe of Umar(ra). Hence he went out and met people who were looking for Umar(ra) and informed them about giving his tribal protection to Umar(ra). Which implies that if anyone tries to attack umsr(ra) the tribe of Aas bin wail will come in his defence.


I have listed out the apparent differences between the hadeeth of Fadhail Sahaba and Sahih Bukhari regarding the conversion of Umar(ra). As can be seen from the differences listed out, they are talking about two different scenarios. The one mentioned in Fadhail Sahaba occurred before the scenario mentioned in Sahih Bukhari. These two scenarios are easily reconcilable by anyone blessed with wisdom and understanding.


 

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