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Twelve Chiefs of Ansar - Not infallibles

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Kalaam

Twelve Chiefs of Ansar - Not infallibles
« on: January 19, 2019, 07:17:18 PM »
We read in Majlisi's book 'Hayat ul Quloob'

Quote
The Prophet now said to the Ansaris, “Appoint twelve persons of your number who shall be your sureties and agents, in like manner as Musa established twelve chiefs among the Bani Israel.” They said to him, “You may choose whom you please.” Jibraeel indicated the proper persons, and the Prophet chose nine men of Khazraj: namely, Asad bin Zurarah, Buraa bin Maroor, Abdullah bin Kharam, the father of Jabir, Rafe bin Malik, Saad bin Ubadah, Manzar bin Amr, Abdullah bin Rawaha, Saad bin Rabi, and Ubadah bin Samit. Similarly, he chose three men of Aws: Abul Hasheem bin Taihan, Usaid bin Khuzayr, and Saad bin Khatheema.
https://www.al-islam.org/hayat-al-qulub-vol-2-allamah-muhammad-baqir-al-majlisi/holy-prophet-s-assumes-prophetical-office


Here we find that these twelve persons were chosen from the people of Madinah and they had only the responsibility for the people under their influence. Why do Shias take the Quran's mentioning of twelve chiefs of Bani Israel as a proof for their Imams when neither the chiefs of Bani Israel were infallibles nor the chiefs of the people of Madinah were infallibles. Why do they take any mentioning of the figure twelve as proof for the imamate of their twelve imams, when there is absolutely no relationship whatsoever?

« Last Edit: January 19, 2019, 07:18:46 PM by Kalaam »

iceman

Re: Twelve Chiefs of Ansar - Not infallibles
« Reply #1 on: January 20, 2019, 08:57:38 PM »
Imam Muslim on Sahih Muslim wrote: Rasulullah s.a.w said: "This religion (Islam) will remain standing until twelve caliph, which all of them is from Quraysh, rule over you." (Sahih Muslim)

Imam Abu Dawud on Shahih Abi Dawud wrote: Masyruq said: We were sitting with Abdullah bin Mas'ud to learn Al-Qur'an from him. Someone asked him: Did you ask Rasulullah s.a.w how many caliphs will rule this ummah? Ibnu Mas'ud answered: Of course we asked this thing from Rasulullah s.a.w and he answered: "Twelve, like the amount of the leaders of Banu Israel." (Shahih Al-Bukhari)

Is the above true. Do we have them in Muslim and Bukhari?

Hani

Re: Twelve Chiefs of Ansar - Not infallibles
« Reply #2 on: January 21, 2019, 01:30:53 AM »
Imam Muslim on Sahih Muslim wrote: Rasulullah s.a.w said: "This religion (Islam) will remain standing until twelve caliph, which all of them is from Quraysh, rule over you." (Sahih Muslim)

Imam Abu Dawud on Shahih Abi Dawud wrote: Masyruq said: We were sitting with Abdullah bin Mas'ud to learn Al-Qur'an from him. Someone asked him: Did you ask Rasulullah s.a.w how many caliphs will rule this ummah? Ibnu Mas'ud answered: Of course we asked this thing from Rasulullah s.a.w and he answered: "Twelve, like the amount of the leaders of Banu Israel." (Shahih Al-Bukhari)

Is the above true. Do we have them in Muslim and Bukhari?

One in Muslim is Sahih, one in abu Dawud is very weak and thus contains odd additions. The idiot who wrote (Sahih al-Bukhari) after it is mistaken, it ain't there.

Neither prove the Imamah of the 12 Shia Imams anyway.

PS. some of the 12 chiefs of banu Israel were not even good people according to the bible, I recall some were corrupt.
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

iceman

Re: Twelve Chiefs of Ansar - Not infallibles
« Reply #3 on: January 25, 2019, 09:30:41 AM »
One in Muslim is Sahih, one in abu Dawud is very weak and thus contains odd additions. The idiot who wrote (Sahih al-Bukhari) after it is mistaken, it ain't there.

Neither prove the Imamah of the 12 Shia Imams anyway.

PS. some of the 12 chiefs of banu Israel were not even good people according to the bible, I recall some were corrupt.

"Neither prove the Imamah of the 12 Shia Imams anyway"

I don't know why you people keep jumping on to the Imamah of the 12 Shia Imams and are very anxious to undermine that at every attempt. Can't you just stick to what's being asked and discussed.

Qureshi

Re: Twelve Chiefs of Ansar - Not infallibles
« Reply #4 on: February 24, 2019, 05:49:06 PM »
We read in Majlisi's book 'Hayat ul Quloob'


Here we find that these twelve persons were chosen from the people of Madinah and they had only the responsibility for the people under their influence. Why do Shias take the Quran's mentioning of twelve chiefs of Bani Israel as a proof for their Imams when neither the chiefs of Bani Israel were infallibles nor the chiefs of the people of Madinah were infallibles. Why do they take any mentioning of the figure twelve as proof for the imamate of their twelve imams, when there is absolutely no relationship whatsoever?

You make sense of course. But you know they believe what they believe. They don't need a proof.

 

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