What is the system of government in Islam? Question to Sunnis/Wahabis

[الحمار الشيعي١]

Chill, akhi. =]

We are not your enemies here. I, for one, am very open minded to your point of view.

Would you mind explaining to Hani (and the rest of us) how Al Nisa 59 is relevant to the discussion?

Oh trust me, you'll find out when It's my turn to answer. Right now, it is your duty and the rest of the Sunnis/wahabis to tell me about the system of government of Islam. I thought Sunnis had all the answers and shia are the "kuffar"?

[Hani]

I will explain to you why you are astray, which is the same answer to your second question and answer  after you tell me the system of government of Islam.

I am going to repeat my question, what is the system of government in Islam?

Review reply#8 to learn about the system of government in Islam.

After you read reply#8 and learned about it, please provide your current system of government in Islam.

[الحمار الشيعي١]

Akhi, with all due respect, Islam is a religion and way of life, not a country. You can't reduce all of Islam to a form of government. There have been Islamic governments of the past and present just as there have been Christian governments of the past. But Christianity is a religion, not a country. Islam is also a religion and not a country.

Your ayat actually supports our position. In our daily lives we obey Allah (swt) and His Messenger (pbuh) and in our secular lives we obey our secular leaders insofar as that they don't ask us to go against Islam. I got a speeding ticket a few weeks ago and I paid it. The Qur'an doesn't have a speed limit for me to drive, but "those in authority" over here do, and so I paid my fine and obeyed them in not continuing to drive fast.

Oh you have made a grave mistake. "In our secular lives we obey our secular leaders", the Aya says WALI AL AMR (one person who is in authority) not AWLEEA AL AMR (plural, leaders in authority). I thought you said the Aya supports you?

[الحمار الشيعي١]

I will explain to you why you are astray, which is the same answer to your second question and answer  after you tell me the system of government of Islam.

I am going to repeat my question, what is the system of government in Islam?

Review reply#8 to learn about the system of government in Islam.

After you read reply#8 and learned about it, please provide your current system of government in Islam.

The system is whatever the people choose as a system that's adequate for the situation and time they live in. Whatever laws and constitutions are chosen, must always respect divine laws and adhere to them.

1)whatever the people choose....what is your proof that the system of government is whatever people choose?

[Sheikh]

^ The world does not have a single leader.

The United States has Obama.
Canada has Harper.
Saudi Arabia has Salman.
Iran has Khamenei.

Unless you're into conspiracy theories about some "new world order", each country has their own leader.

Anyways, I'm out. I won't feed the troll any more. Please debate with Hani and Farid. You might learn something.

Edit: "what is your proof that the system of government is whatever people choose?"

Well. In my country, we vote. Ergo, the people choose by voting. In other countries there isn't any voting and so the (majority of) people don't choose.  What's your point?

/out for real this time

[Farid]

I will leave this to Hani, since he likes these topics.

Though, I just want to point out that the verse doesn't say: Wali Al Amr.
It says: Ooli Al Amr.

It falls into the plural category.

See here for grammatical breakdown of the verse: http://www.al-eman.com/%D8%A7%D9%84%D9%83%D8%AA%D8%A8/%D8%A7%D9%84%D8%AC%D8%AF%D9%88%D9%84%20%D9%81%D9%8A%20%D8%A5%D8%B9%D8%B1%D8%A7%D8%A8%20%D8%A7%D9%84%D9%82%D8%B1%D8%A2%D9%86/%D8%A5%D8%B9%D8%B1%D8%A7%D8%A8%20%D8%A7%D9%84%D8%A2%D9%8A%D8%A9%20%D8%B1%D9%82%D9%85%20(59):/i410&d402495&c&p1

[Hani]

The system is whatever the people choose as a system that's adequate for the situation and time they live in. Whatever laws and constitutions are chosen, must always respect divine laws and adhere to them.

1)whatever the people choose....what is your proof that the system of government is whatever people choose?

Because the Prophet (saw) gave really broad guidelines about the system of governance, responsibilities of leaders and responsibility of subjects.

Due to the HUGE room he (saw) gave us, we can easily say that the system can be developed by the people and improved with time. Whatever chosen system must respect divine laws and adhere to Islamic rulings based on the sincere Ijtihad of the people.

I have to go now, we'll see what you come up with a few hours later.

[الحمار الشيعي١]

^ The world does not have a single leader.

The United States has Obama.
Canada has Harper.
Saudi Arabia has Salman.
Iran has Khamenei.

Unless you're into conspiracy theories about some "new world order", each country has their own leader.

Anyways, I'm out. I won't feed the troll any more. Please debate with Hani and Farid. You might learn something.

Edit: "what is your proof that the system of government is whatever people choose?"

Well. In my country, we vote. Ergo, the people choose by voting. In other countries there isn't any voting and so the (majority of) people don't choose.  What's your point?

/out for real this time

I do not know what is wrong with you, I am talking about Islam you talk about the world. ISLAMMMMMM not countries. Who is supposed to lead muslims? and what is their system of government? and yes run away because my last comment shook you. Allah knows what my next one will do to you.

[الحمار الشيعي١]

The system is whatever the people choose as a system that's adequate for the situation and time they live in. Whatever laws and constitutions are chosen, must always respect divine laws and adhere to them.

1)whatever the people choose....what is your proof that the system of government is whatever people choose?

Because the Prophet (saw) gave really broad guidelines about the system of governance, responsibilities of leaders and responsibility of subjects.

Due to the HUGE room he (saw) gave us, we can easily say that the system can be developed by the people and improved with time. Whatever chosen system must respect divine laws and adhere to Islamic rulings based on the sincere Ijtihad of the people.

I have to go now, we'll see what you come up with a few hours later.

Okay explain to me how the system is developed/started, and how it is improved, how the people choose the leader, how do you know a person or “leader” is mujtahid and his level of ijtihad? Let’s pretend you are becoming the president of the united states, how would you develop an Islamic system of government?

[الحمار الشيعي١]

I will leave this to Hani, since he likes these topics.

Though, I just want to point out that the verse doesn't say: Wali Al Amr.
It says: Ooli Al Amr.

It falls into the plural category.

See here for grammatical breakdown of the verse: http://www.al-eman.com/%D8%A7%D9%84%D9%83%D8%AA%D8%A8/%D8%A7%D9%84%D8%AC%D8%AF%D9%88%D9%84%20%D9%81%D9%8A%20%D8%A5%D8%B9%D8%B1%D8%A7%D8%A8%20%D8%A7%D9%84%D9%82%D8%B1%D8%A2%D9%86/%D8%A5%D8%B9%D8%B1%D8%A7%D8%A8%20%D8%A7%D9%84%D8%A2%D9%8A%D8%A9%20%D8%B1%D9%82%D9%85%20(59):/i410&d402495&c&p1

Yes but they don’t rule all at once, one leader at one time leading. abu bakr ruled alone  followed by omar alone  followed by uthman alone.

[Sheikh]

^ I'm not running away. I'm actually having a lot of fun with you. It's just that I know that my comments are diverting attention away from the real debate where Hani will do exceptionally well. I am not a solid debator like he is.

Your comment didn't shake me. Islam is a religion, not a country. Islam does not currently have a government. There is no Muslim Pope running an Islamic Vatican. Islam does not have a government. Unless you can point me to a country named "Islam" that has a system of government your argument is pointless.

What you are trying to do is get someone to say that Khilafah is an Islamic form of government and then you will point out some of the mistakes of the early Caliphate and tout that Imamate is better.  We already know your arguments. We are just trying to get you to make your arguments so we can have a discussion. You keep jumping up and down like you have some sort of magical enlightenment that is somehow missing from us wretched "Wahhabis" but you also keep refusing to share your enlightenment.

So, beloved guest, can you please explain what is your view of an Islamic government?  Hani has already explained that governments are just set up for whatever works best in that time period and location. You seem unhappy with that, so perhaps you can give us your ideas on how government can be better and more Islamic?

Trust me, your ideas are just as valid as ours. The Prophet (pbuh) didn't give us a codified constitution and written rule of law for the entire world. Therefore, government is set up by people, fallible as they may be, in a way that works in their place and time.

Again, I am not running away. You have not "shaken" me or anything of the sort. I simply wish to stop being a distraction. So I will exit.

May Allah guide us all.

[الحمار الشيعي١]

^ I'm not running away. I'm actually having a lot of fun with you. It's just that I know that my comments are diverting attention away from the real debate where Hani will do exceptionally well. I am not a solid debator like he is.

Your comment didn't shake me. Islam is a religion, not a country. Islam does not currently have a government. There is no Muslim Pope running an Islamic Vatican. Islam does not have a government. Unless you can point me to a country named "Islam" that has a system of government your argument is pointless.

What you are trying to do is get someone to say that Khilafah is an Islamic form of government and then you will point out some of the mistakes of the early Caliphate and tout that Imamate is better.  We already know your arguments. We are just trying to get you to make your arguments so we can have a discussion. You keep jumping up and down like you have some sort of magical enlightenment that is somehow missing from us wretched "Wahhabis" but you also keep refusing to share your enlightenment.

So, beloved guest, can you please explain what is your view of an Islamic government?  Hani has already explained that governments are just set up for whatever works best in that time period and location. You seem unhappy with that, so perhaps you can give us your ideas on how government can be better and more Islamic?

Trust me, your ideas are just as valid as ours. The Prophet (pbuh) didn't give us a codified constitution and written rule of law for the entire world. Therefore, government is set up by people, fallible as they may be, in a way that works in their place and time.

Again, I am not running away. You have not "shaken" me or anything of the sort. I simply wish to stop being a distraction. So I will exit.

May Allah guide us all.

Good have fun because I will end the fun soon enough just wait for it Wait didn’t you say you are leaving? “diverting attention away from the real debate”Islam is a religion and in a religion you need a leader. Opse. I am not trying to get someone to say anything, what are you like Allah jal jalaloh and you know my intentions? Astaghfir allah. My answer is coming after hani finishes his side of the discussion he started by saying whatever people choose so I am asking how that works. Then it is my turn.  By the way we don’t have “ideas” shia have Quran and Sunnah of the prophet s.a.a.w.w. No the government is not set up by fallible people.

[Sheikh]

^

"In a religion you need a leader".  A political leader?  Can you prove this?

"Shia have Qur'an and Sunnah". I thought it was Quraan and Ahlul Bayt?  Did the Shia World Congress get together and change their religion again?

"The government is not set up by fallible people". Can you show me any government, apart from the government of Madinah in the time of the Prophet, that was set up by infallible leaders?

[الحمار الشيعي١]

^

"In a religion you need a leader".  A political leader?  Can you prove this?

"Shia have Qur'an and Sunnah". I thought it was Quraan and Ahlul Bayt?  Did the Shia World Congress get together and change their religion again?

"The government is not set up by fallible people". Can you show me any government, apart from the government of Madinah in the time of the Prophet, that was set up by infallible leaders?

1)Yeah I do have a proof which you are ignorant of, our beloved Prophet Muhammed (sal allah alayh wa aleh wasalam). He was a religion AND political leader.
2)The sunnah of the prophet IS ahlul bayt (alayhm alsalam) and the book of Allah.
3)You are so ignorant I Don't believe people like you exist in this world. Don't you get it? I think your frontal lobe is damaged. I am talking about system of government of muslims not infallibility that is a different topic. You can open your own thread on that topic currently we are discussing something else which you are ignorant in so stay out of it you are not adding anything except for confusion.

[zaid_ibn_ali]

What is the system of government in Islam?

Its definitely not the system where the Imam is hiding in a cave for a thousand years & is useless to the people.

Funny enough, Iran is following the sunni concept of a council choosing what they deem to be a righteous person who is human & not infallible/masoom.

In the end shia still have to elect a leader like sunni's do.
Your imamate collapsed when your Imam hid in a cave.

[Sheikh]

^

1.) The Prophet (pbuh) died a long time ago. I thought we were talking about Islamic government now. Or did you change the topic?

2.) No. The Ahlul Bayt followed the Sunnah. You seem to be mixing up the two terms.  Sunnah means tradition. Ahlul Bayt means people of the house. Brushing your teeth before prayer is a Sunnah, it is not an Ahlul Bayt.

3.) You just said in your last post that there can't be a government of fallible people. Now you are saying that there can't be a government of infallible people. What is there left?  I don't think that you understand that a government is made up of people.

I will ignore your insults since they come directly from Iranian tv. You most likely don't know what a frontal lobe is. But, there is something I have to question. I tried to leave the thread earlier but you accused me of running away and kept dragging me back in. Now you want me to leave. Why do you keep shifting your positions?  Are you the best defender that Shi'ism has to offer? =/

[الحمار الشيعي١]

What is the system of government in Islam?

Its definitely not the system where the Imam is hiding in a cave for a thousand years & is useless to the people.

Funny enough, Iran is following the sunni concept of a council choosing what they deem to be a righteous person who is human & not infallible/masoom.

In the end shia still have to elect a leader like sunni's do.
Your imamate collapsed when your Imam hid in a cave.

What is the system of government in Islam then? Do enlighten me with the knowledge of the Sunnah of the prophet (s.a.a.w.w.).

[الحمار الشيعي١]

^

1.) The Prophet (pbuh) died a long time ago. I thought we were talking about Islamic government now. Or did you change the topic?

2.) No. The Ahlul Bayt followed the Sunnah. You seem to be mixing up the two terms.  Sunnah means tradition. Ahlul Bayt means people of the house. Brushing your teeth before prayer is a Sunnah, it is not an Ahlul Bayt.

3.) You just said in your last post that there can't be a government of fallible people. Now you are saying that there can't be a government of infallible people. What is there left?  I don't think that you understand that a government is made up of people.

I will ignore your insults since they come directly from Iranian tv. You most likely don't know what a frontal lobe is. But, there is something I have to question. I tried to leave the thread earlier but you accused me of running away and kept dragging me back in. Now you want me to leave. Why do you keep shifting your positions?  Are you the best defender that Shi'ism has to offer? =/

1-The prophet s.a.a.w.w. is not dead, you are ignorant. This is my last reply because people like you don't even deserve attention.
2-The sunnah of the prophet is Hadith Althqalayn, leaving the book of Allah and Ahlul bayt a.s., who ever follows them will never be lost.
3-Yes I am talking about the system of government of Islam now and how it came to be the way it is AFTER the prophet s.a.a.w.w. I suggest you listen to Hani who began by saying the prophet s.a.a.w.w. left us a lot of room to do things on our own and he didn't assign a successor. Your attempt to run away and talk about infallibility is truly pathetic.

[Hani]

Okay explain to me how the system is developed/started, and how it is improved

I can't believe you're seriously asking this question on a forum, it's like asking someone how to engineer a submarine on a public forum, the answer being many volumes of mathematics and physics etc... The question can be directed to qualified men of law and expert jurists.

When `Umar created the Diwan and established it as a system to spend on certain deserving categories of people in the Islamic state, this system was not available in Abu Bakr's reign. Therefore, this is how that form of government improved and evolved. Keep in mind that the method of producing and organizing the Diwan was never stated in any Islamic divine text, it was human effort, Islam did not dictate a specific system for this.

how the people choose the leader

Depends on the system in place. In some countries leadership is inherited, in others a council of experts chooses, in others all people vote and choose etc... Obviously the contitution needs to specify what are the qualifications for a person to run and be selected in the first place. An Islamic state can place the rule that the Imam must always be Muslim.

how do you know a person or “leader” is mujtahid and his level of ijtihad?

You mean a jurist or scholar? Scholars are usually recognized by all other scholars and laypeople in their areas. I don't think society with its learned men and educated scholars will have any issues figuring out if a man is a scholar. In the US, there are presidential debates for instance, these are televised and each nominee is judged by the expert panel and the people.

[Hani]

2-The sunnah of the prophet is Hadith Althqalayn, leaving the book of Allah and Ahlul bayt a.s., who ever follows them will never be lost.

How do you define "Lost"? Please, give me the definition of being "Lost" according to you.