Help please

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Muslim ar Rusi

Help please
« on: November 04, 2016, 08:55:54 PM »
Assalamu aleikum wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuh. I came accros a post of rawafidh in which they tried to prove their verions of hadeeth thaqalain. I decieded to translate it quickly into english so you could adress and refute it.

Here it is:

Ibn Katheer:

وقد روى النسائي في سننه عن محمد بن المثنى، عن يحيى بن حماد، عن أبي معاوية، عن الأعمش، عن حبيب ابن أبي ثابت، عن أبي الطفيل، عن زيد بن أرقم قال‏:‏ لما رجع رسول الله من حجة الوداع ونزل غدير حم أمر بدوحات فقممن ثم قال‏:‏ ‏(‏‏(‏كأني قد دعيت فأجبت إني قد تركت فيكم الثقلين كتاب الله، وعترتي أهل بيتي، فانظروا كيف تخلفوني فيهما، فإنهما لن يفترقا حتَّى يردا علي الحوض‏)‏‏)‏‏.‏

ثم قال‏:‏ ‏(‏‏(‏الله مولاي، وأنا ولي كل مؤمن‏)‏‏)‏ ثم أخذ بيد علي فقال‏:‏ ‏(‏‏(‏من كنت مولاه، فهذا وليه، اللهم وال من والاه، وعاد من عاداه‏)‏‏)‏‏.‏

فقلت لزيد‏:‏ سمعته من رسول الله صلَّى الله عليه وسلَّم فقال‏:‏ ما كان في الدوحات أحد إلا رآه بعينيه، وسمعه بأذنيه، تفرد به النسائي من هذا الوجه‏.‏ ‏(‏ج/ص‏:‏5/229‏)‏

Nasai wrote with chain: Muhammad ibn Muthanna from Yahya ibn Hamad from Abu Muawiya from A'mash from Habib ibn Abu Sabit from Abu Tufail from Zaid ibn Arkama who said that when the Prophet (aleihi wa aalihi solatu wa salam) returned from "Hujat al-Wid'a" (literally rafidhi wrote so) and reached Ghadir where he ordered to .... (this part didn't make much sense for me). Then he said:

«I was called and i answered the call. No doubt, i'm going and  i leave you two weigthy things: book of Allah and my ahly bait, and we'll see how you treat them after me. They will never separate from each other till they join me near the paradise (lake).

Then he said: "Allah is my wali, and i am wali of every believer. Then he rose the hand of Ali and said:
Whom I am his master then Ali is his master. O Allah, love whoever loves him and be at enmity with whoever is at enmity with him!"

Then Zaid said: "i heard those wors of prophet and whoever was in shadow saw this with their eyes and heard with their ears"»

قال شيخنا أبو عبد الله الذهبي‏:‏ وهذا حديث صحيح‏

Thahabi said: "this hadeeth is saheeh"الكتب/البداية%20والنهاية%20**/حجة%20الوداع%20في%20سنة%20عشر/i111&d74432&c&p1

Detailed analysis of the narrators:

1) Muhammad ibn al-Muthanna - narrator of Bukhari

(110 ahadeeth) and Muslim (661)

2) Yahya ibn Hamad - narrator of Bukhari (9) and Muslim (5)

3) Abu Muawiya - narrator Bukhari (31) and Muslim (234)

4) Sulaiman al-A'mash - narrator Bukhari (366) and Muslim (376)

5) Habeeb ibn Abu Thabit - narrator Bukhari (14) and Muslim (7)

6) Abu Tufail - companion, narrator Bukhari (1) and Muslim (21)

7) Zaid ibn Arkam - companion, narrator of Bukhari

Usually nawasib tell us that A'mash made tadlis (twist of narratos). To answer this we provide a hadeeth from Muslim in which A'mash narrates from Habeeb ibn abi Thabit:

وَحَدَّثَنَا أَبُو بَكْرِ بْنُ أَبِي شَيْبَةَ، وَأَبُو كُرَيْبٍ قَالاَ حَدَّثَنَا أَبُو مُعَاوِيَةَ، عَنِ الأَعْمَشِ، عَنْ حَبِيبِ بْنِ أَبِي ثَابِتٍ، عَنْ سَعِيدِ بْنِ جُبَيْرٍ، عَنِ ابْنِ عَبَّاسٍ، - رضى الله عنهما - قَالَ أَهْدَى الصَّعْبُ بْنُ جَثَّامَةَ إِلَى النَّبِيِّ صلى الله عليه وسلم حِمَارَ وَحْشٍ وَهُوَ مُحْرِمٌ فَرَدَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَقَالَ ‏ "‏ لَوْلاَ أَنَّا مُحْرِمُونَ لَقَبِلْنَاهُ مِنْكَ ‏"‏ ‏.‏

So, all narrators here - narrators of Bukhari and Muslim. Here we got an intresting sentence:

فإنهما لن يفترقا حتَّى يردا علي الحوض

"they will never separate from each other till they join me near the paradise (lake)"

And if they ask us who the Ahli Bait we will say: they are the people from the family and the descendants of the prophet, who never separated from the Qur'an and who will be in the paradise with the Prophet.

In the saheeh hadeeth um Salama heard from the Messenger of Allah(aleihi wa aali salatu wa salam):

علي مع القرآن و القرآن مع علي لن يتفرقا حتى يردا علي الحوض

Ali is with the Qur'an and the Quran is with Ali, they won't separate untill they reach me near the lake (Kawthar).

Mustadrak 'ala sahihein 3/134, hadeeth 4628

تعليق الذهبي قي التلخيص : صحيح

Thahabi: this is Saheeh

The meaning of those words are a big threat to aqeedah of nawasib, who think that Ali contradicted with the Qur'an serveral times. These words tell us about the 'isma of Ali

لا تعتقد دين الروافض إنهم أهل المحال وحزبة الشيطان

not a daish follower


Re: Help please
« Reply #1 on: November 04, 2016, 09:25:32 PM »
The word mawla can have muliple meanings such as master or simply a friend or someone close.
If this was a declaration that Ali ibn Abu Talib was to be the leader, why would the Holy Prophet (Saw) use such an ambiguous (unclear) word when he could simply say Ali is to be the Imam or caliph after him?
The sunni explanation is that there were those who disagreed with Ali & felt hard done by. So the Prophet (Saw) said whoever's mawla (friend/loved one) I am, then Ali is his mawla.
Makes sense.

Shia always make it out like the Islam is riddles.
They never have a clear explicit verse of Quran or a hadeeth that declares Ali as Imam & also his sons etc


Re: Help please
« Reply #2 on: November 05, 2016, 05:56:39 AM »
The second part is [“They will not separate until they reach me at the pond”]

It means, that the Prophet(saws) told his nation to take responsibility for two things, the Qur’an and the household, so if a slave held on to the Qur’an yet he wronged the household and oppressed them and harmed them, then he has not fulfilled the wish of the Prophet (saws) and he (saws) will not be pleased with him when he reaches him at the pond. On the other hand, if a slave was loyal to the household and loved them extremely, yet he abandoned the teachings of the Qur’an and deviated and innovated, the Prophet (saws) will not be pleased with him when he meets him at the pond because the responsibility of following the Qur’an and taking care of the household are linked. A true believer must always be responsible towards both.

Taken from

Al Dukhan

Re: Help please
« Reply #3 on: November 05, 2016, 06:18:53 PM »
And i don't think Prophet s.a.w will meet only 12 persons at houz e kausar, leaving other Ahl'al bait (members of His family) in unjustified manner ! And as for the Quran it will do shifa'at itself by command of Allah InshaAllah as mentioned in ahadith, if Quran is in possession for 12 imams as per shiism then after 11th imam, shias themselves have no Quran, until their hidden imam appears ! So who are those with Quran and Ahl'al bait are?   :)
« Last Edit: November 05, 2016, 06:21:12 PM by Al Dukhan »